Bill Self "growth stunter"
-
Just a reminder. In 2020 this coach who doesn’t have it any more was a pandemic away from his 2nd national championship. No guarantees of course but as good as that team was playing no one would have been surprised if they had won it all. While none of those guys has distinguished themselves so far, 3 of them were future NBA players and 2 more Braun and Ochai are likely NBA players. He had nice talent and they were playing at a high level.
-
The best coaches in any sport are stubborn, but also flexible. Stubborn because they know what works, but flexible enough to make necessary adjustments to fit their situation, personnel and style.
Self has proven that he is stubborn. Now he has to show some flexibility.
The best players on this team are perimeter guys. That means interior guys are on the floor to play hard, grab rebounds and dunk lobs. That’s it. They get few or no post touches because that’s not the strength of this team. Last night, Big Dave got going because he was pursuing every rebound. That has to continue. He has to understand that most of his offense will come from putbacks, so he better get on the glass on both ends. Same for Mitch. Same for whoever else gets minutes at the 5.
Self demands accountability, which is great. He also has to know which guys need more space to play. Remy Martin did zero for most of the game, then iced the game with a couple big time buckets down the stretch. He should be that type of threat from the opening bucket. Agbaji started hot, then disappeared due to foul trouble and cold shooting for almost 20 minutes. Where’s a play drawn up to get him a good look? Same for Braun. Why aren’t plays getting drawn up to keep your two All American level wings involved offensively?
Those are the adjustments necessary because the defenses are going to get better. They have film to review now. They know what’s coming. So now you have to show some schemes to get Agbaji and Braun loose on offense with something other than stepback threes. Why aren’t we seeing some Agbaji/Braun fade screen action? Why don’t we see them iso’d for a little two man game. Both can handle, pass, and shoot. Why aren’t we combining that? We need that creativity because they can carry us to and through March.
-
@DCHawker I don’t really know how you can use kenpom rankings as an argument against the offense, and then ignore that kenpom has KU ranked as the 4th best offensive team in the country.
I mean out of the top 10 in Kenpom, we’ve played the 2nd hardest schedule so far. And our defensive schedule is actually 37th in the country. So as far as scoring against good defenses, we have done it against a top 15% schedule.
Meaning we have the 7th best FG% and 8th most points ppg in the country against a reasonably hard schedule.
Teams ahead of us in FG%
- Gonzaga - 265 SOS - 252 DSOS
- Colorado State - 269 SOS - 246 DSOS
- South Dakota State - 132 SOS - 140 DSOS
- Purdue - 114 SOS - 214 DSOS
- Loyola (IL) - 147 SOS - 84 DSOS
- Murray State - 164 SOS - 277 DSOS
The only team playing anywhere near our level of schedule and scoring the ball more efficiently than us is Loyola Chicago. If you do the same with PPG, the story is basically the same. Except sub out CSU and Loyola for Cornell (278 SOS - 320 DSOS), Arizona (157 SOS - 184 DSOS) and Iowa (255 SOS - 209 DSOS).
Point being - KU is scoring the ball very well pretty much no matter how you want to look at it. And they’ve done it against a way harder schedule than the majority of the other top teams in the country so far.
-
Ok. I’m going to throw this out there but I do think some people may be discounting JWs rebounding as a DEFENSIVE skill. Yes he may bet blown by or miss an assignment, but without him (and new Dave last night) we have struggled to END defensive possessions.
The rebounding WAS the difference last night. Getting this offense more possessions is a fairly simple recipe for success. And yes, to this point, this team has been successful as someone above pointed out the only loss coming on a last second miracle.
-
@benshawks08 that’s why he’s playing
-
@Kcmatt7 Fair point about using Kenpom defensive rankings, but not reflecting our Kenpom offensive efficiency ranking. I will continue to take issue with the strength of our schedule, which - admittedly without a deeper dive - seems to have been the weakest non-conference schedule for KU in memory. It’s “strength” is a reflection of the fact that - unlike others - we haven’t played any really bad teams. Only 2 with losing records. Lowest Kenpom ranking is Stony Brook at 209. But, other than MSU, we also haven’t played any very good teams - again, MSU is the only one ranked in the top 50. And, MSU is likely the only at-large caliber team we’ve played in non-conference (UK will be one more). Contrast our schedule with Iowa State. Ours is ranked much higher, which is a product of the fact that half of ISU’s wins are against objectively bad teams. But, they also have beaten 3-4 at-large caliber teams (Iowa, Xavier, Creighton and Memphis) and their only loss is a much “better” loss than ours. I’m just saying that at least I find it hard to draw any conclusions about KU generally, including offensive capability, given the schedule we’ve played. We simply haven’t demonstrated YET that we can or will be efficient against quality opposition.
-
I guess it just depends on what particular site you look at , will give you various opinions about where your team is as far as strength of schedule goes. - you look at 10 different sites - -you more likely then not your going to get 10 different answers. I’ve voiced my opinion whether you agree , disagree , it’s all good we are all entitled to our own opinion or whatever. My thoughts are at THIS POINT could change tomorrow the next day whatever , but my question at THIS POINT in the Season , if you were an opponent of KU - - - would KU put the fear of GOD into you ? - -Let me ask do you think is under rated should we be higher in the pols? - you feel we are not getting respect ? - -if you do whats you reasoning for that?
I look at the way our Season has gone how we have played - defensively - - - -free throw pct’s - - - rebounding - -who do you think we should be above in the teams currently above us right now ? I watch this team and just at this point again it can change but right now - this is not a NCAA Champion team - -were a good team , a really good team but not an NCAA Champion team . You just don’t see that flow.
Take Remy Martin , good player but he tries to make better plays/passes then what the simple pass would get the deuce and because of some of those passes they turn into turnovers , you take Jalen - good rebounder but defensively huge liability you watch - -focus on Jalen and his man sometime , he is getting beat consistently and his shooting pct is miserable , David ? - and I’m a Dave supporter BUT until this last game not even close to what he should be getting - he is at what like 5.8 rebounds somewhere like that, should be closer to at least 8 - that’s just the tip of things.
You watch KU and then you watch Baylor teams like that just things different. - just like when Baylor was playing Iowa State at Hilton, Baylor ALWAYS had an answer, Iowa State make a run & Baylor always answered the challenge - -Their guard is an absolute stud - -good height - -very athletic. Am I saying KU can’t/wont beat them ? - -hell no I’m not just saying at this point Baylor is the better team , and like some others said right at this point an agrument for Iowa State could be made for giving KU fits looking to see how it works when WE go to Hilton.
Like I said might have guys here think I’m a KU basher/hater. Think what you want is what I would say , you can do that , I’m just stating what I see. - -if you go on on of these streaks go 0-20 and a 9:112 drought in the tourney - -you will be blown out. Game over - - Season over - - Done.
like I said in the beginning if your wanting to compare things just depends on what site you look at. I just looked at Strength of Schedule from the NCAA College Basketball and where the 5 other teams sit on their strength of schedule -they were this - -Baylor ( 15th ) - - -Duke ( 11th ) - -UCLA ( 9th ) - - - Gonzaga ( 3rd ) - - Purdue ( 20th ) - - - & KU ( 26th ) - -just sayin - just some thoughts your up to yours - -I ain’t mad at ya again you agree or not agree thats fine hope this doesn’t turn into war of words everyone is entitled to what they think & at this point I think w are ranked right about where we should be. Maybe even anotch or two high, BUT CERTAINLY not above any of these teams ranked above us
-
Lunardi has us back to a #1 seed again.
-
@mayjay said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Lunardi has us back to a #1 seed again.
ya seen that today and I like the region and the teams thats in our bracket - -if it only turned out to be the case - - out of forth worth Texas
-
I’m not going to let KenPromNight tell me what my eyes see.
KU Offense: Top 30
KU Defense: Top 200
We should be a lot tighter as we start conference play, especially considering we aren’t playing freshmen.
“On any given night we can bet anyone!” That’s a great phrase, worthy of a bumpersticker. But when describing conference play I’d rather hear other comments about how superior we are to everyone else.
Once again, we are starting conference play without a definite “team leader.” A floor general. Someone to rally the troops. Someone in between coach and players to bark orders. Someone controlling tempo. Someone reading defenses. Someone calling plays. You know… the way basketball used to be played.
I am a big fan of Harris and Martin. Harris has a lot more potential left in his game as he grows into manhood. Martin… still trying to assess if and what he will be able to do more. I definitely think we need Bobby healthy and he should give us some good minutes ahead.
Where is this team on the toughness scale? Anyone willing to reply?
-
@drgnslayr not going to lie, the Okie State game tampered my expectations for our team. So far, it looks like we’re playing for 2nd place in conference at best, and if we got to the sweet 16 I’d call it a good season.
-
It is so easy to feel this way… and at times, I do, too.
But I also see a team with so much potential. Look at the bright side of this game. Maybe Dave is back and ready for a great season moving forward!
It is a year we are really missing Marcus Garrett! We really need these guys to buy in to pressing hard on defense. Without that happening… we can’t go far. We’ve got the personnel to compete with anyone! We just need all 5 players on the floor bought in to heavy pressure every single play! Harris has bought in…
I think Martin is a big key when it comes to defense. He may be our “quickest” player and he’s capable of stepping up more on D. He’s a guy that is so visible on the floor. You just can’t miss his play while he’s on the floor. He could do a lot to inspire others.
The difference is 5%! We don’t need guys to just give 100%. Somewhere around 105% we will kick the sh*t out of every team in the nation, including Baylor!
-
@drgnslayr I forget which year it was that Self said his team was tough. Thinking it was the final four year, but it may have been the blowout loss to Oregon year too. I forget. May have been 2020 which was definitely a tough team. I went and looked at their schedule. They lost to Duke, Nova, Baylor, no slouches there of course, defeated national runner up TT twice and future NC Baylor. I think that team was tough.
How do you quantify tough? Is it going unbeaten? Winning in tough places? Coming back in a game like we did the other night and overcoming an unheard of shooting slump? Is it just intimidating the heck out of everyone like Kentucky 2012 did? Is it playing lockdown defense? Or is it having an offense that will always score more than your shaky defense gives up?
I’d think this years version of tough for us is looking to be the last one. Not thinking we’re going to ride our defense to a title, but I think our offense can carry us to a title.
-
@wissox said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
How do you quantify tough? Is it going unbeaten? Winning in tough places? Coming back in a game like we did the other night and overcoming an unheard of shooting slump? Is it just intimidating the heck out of everyone like Kentucky 2012 did? Is it playing lockdown defense? Or is it having an offense that will always score more than your shaky defense gives up?
I don’t always think the toughest teams win. I think part of it is optics. What we see. We see guys scrapping it out. Running at full speed on every play. Exhausted yet still hitting another gear.
There are different kinds of tough. There is physical toughness. Being exhausted but still going hard. There is also mental toughness. Our current team is in good physical shape and we have a bench to help the minutes load. But what I did see at OSU was a certain amount of mental toughness. I didn’t see our guys give up. Didn’t see heads hanging low or frustration. If the sportscasters didn’t keep telling us, you couldn’t tell they had missed 20 or so shots in a row. That mental toughness impressed me. I was also impressed with David and his physical toughness. He stepped up and hustled.
I see other guys not quite being tough enough in some areas.
-
Tough means not soft. Win while playing ugly. I think we had some long discussions a few years ago about playing ugly. I’m not sure how to quantify any of these classic Self phrases, but they are all related. Can you be tough when your team is pretty, or just ugly?
-
I would like to think that Remy has another gear, and he’s been pulling the Tyshawn Taylor senior year trick. I think there is another level to his game that could truly change our fortunes. Hopefully him and Bill can mindmeld and unlock his talents. Remy going off will really help Braun and Och, and open things up. As much as I want OCH and Braun to be alphas, the real alpha is Remy. I bet he’s the guy that’s going to take the last shot.
I also think Big Dave will now be known as Good Dave the rest of the season. The benching helped, and we saw some really nice work the other night. He made some nice shots, and actually rebounded the ball for once. I know- he also had some sucky moments, but Good Dave has finally reappeared.
JW is literally killing us on offense. He can’t possibly continue his level of suckness - it’s mathematically impossible. Well, maybe it is possible, but I’m still going with the “impossible” line to push my narrative: 2 for 23 from 3. He will get better, or Coach will make him stop shooting 3s. Either way, we suddenly get better. He is our best rebounder, and it’s not close.
-
“The best players on this team are perimeter guys. That means interior guys are on the floor to play hard, grab rebounds and dunk lobs. That’s it. They get few or no post touches because that’s not the strength of this team. Last night, Big Dave got going because he was pursuing every rebound. That has to continue. He has to understand that most of his offense will come from putbacks, so he better get on the glass on both ends. Same for Mitch. Same for whoever else gets minutes at the 5.“
Bingo
-
@Jethro Agree with you on Remy. I think he will take off as you say whenever he hears that “it’s his team,” which makes it difficult since he is the new guy. With some of the softness and uncertainty we’ve seen lately from Ochai, I think he might welcome that from Remy.
-
Man if Remy can become the talent the writers made the preseason POY in the league this team becomes one of the threats to win it all. Not sure it happens without him.
-
He’s not playing to his potential and there is several reasons for it. I think he has deferred to Och and CB but if this team is going far this season he’s going to have to assume more of the Alpha role on this team. I think the team would easily get behind him too if he does
-
@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
He’s not playing to his potential and there is several reasons for it. I think he has deferred to Och and CB but if this team is going far this season he’s going to have to assume more of the Alpha role on this team. I think the team would easily get behind him too if he does
I think the same. While Och and CB have obviously been playing well, all-league all-American well, Remy is going to have to pick up his scoring and assume the leadership role that his personality almost dictates. I want to see Remy be a bit more selfish.
-
Yeah Remy has been too unselfish especially when he dribbles. He’s rarely drawn contact which he can do easily with how he plays. He wants to make the spectacular pass which I get but its not helping himself or the team. I’m happy with his effort to please his Coach but its time to tighten up and do what he’s good at. Especially with Ochai coming back to earth we need to see him step up
-
@BeddieKU23 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
Yeah Remy has been too unselfish especially when he dribbles. He’s rarely drawn contact which he can do easily with how he plays. He wants to make the spectacular pass which I get but its not helping himself or the team. I’m happy with his effort to please his Coach but its time to tighten up and do what he’s good at. Especially with Ochai coming back to earth we need to see him step up
Yup, but the question is really will he be allowed to? Sure seems as though he’s got a leash on at the moment. I sure hope he can “unleash” himself and play more to his skill set.
-
Self tells him to shoot more
-
It took Malik Newman like 25 games before he finally “got it” so I’m personally not panicked. Outside of Josh Jackson I can’t remember a single guy who ever came in and just was the perfect Bill Self player in both mentality and talent.
-
@Kcmatt7 Newman also was after a year of sitting ie being with the team
-
Agree JJ was remarkable. BAseline dunks on UK heads 4evA
-
If we talk about kids who started off with a bang and don’t account for sitting BMac was pretty special
-
And Xavier and oubre I think were on lesser teams to JJ but were close
-
@approxinfinity said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
If we talk about kids who started off with a bang and don’t account for sitting BMac was pretty special
I firmly believe we win it all in 12 if Ben could’ve played
-
@approxinfinity said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
And Xavier and oubre I think were on lesser teams to JJ but were close
Xavier was on the team that lost to Northern Iowa in the tournament and was a team that should’ve won the title as well as they were #1 most of the season and never ranked lower than 3rd at any point. For my money, Xavier Henry is by far the most underrated OAD to come through KU.
-
@approxinfinity Bill messed with Oubre too much Imo. I thought he should have started day 1 and just let him figure out stuff on the court. But that’s never been Bill’s style (except with Grimes which is still weird tbh).
-
@FarmerJayhawk Yea I’d bet if you replaced 17 Teahan minutes with BMac and we have a different ball game.
-
BMac had an absurd year. Technically a FR but gotta think the off year helped.
-
@Kcmatt7 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
@approxinfinity Bill messed with Oubre too much Imo. I thought he should have started day 1 and just let him figure out stuff on the court. But that’s never been Bill’s style (except with Grimes which is still weird tbh).
-
@Kcmatt7 said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
It took Malik Newman like 25 games before he finally “got it” so I’m personally not panicked. Outside of Josh Jackson I can’t remember a single guy who ever came in and just was the perfect Bill Self player in both mentality and talent.
I get what you’re saying, but with Remy it is different. When the guy shoots, he more often than not scores. We don’t want nor need for him to be the volume shooter/scorer that he was at ASU, but do need for him to lead this team and look for his shot more.
-
@Kcmatt7 oubre was a bit lazy, I love the guy. The WSU game
, no hustle!
-
@wissox funny how others saw what he was and how he can impact this team yet Self decided to take it upon himself to completely change how remy plays taking shots via the media and complaining constantly when he’d have comments on good plays.
Bill doesn’t get our best players to play at their best he picks and chooses who he likes who are oddly never the best guys (traylor, Mostar, ect).
Remy came to Allen and torched us yet now he never looks to get downhill like Frank or graham would (prior to his knee even)…that says enough Self will look back at this team and still not seeing his blindness and lack of maximizing the talent he had
Oh and Baylor torched us that 2020 year in Allen we went back there and won a hard fought game. 2020 wasn’t guaranteed and Baylor just as much could say they could have won it and be back to back
-
Do you ever think that’s because Remy can’t beat guys off the dribble that well? Not a strength of his.
-
@kuballin10 Agreed about Baylor, but we seemingly had it turned up a notch. They would have been our biggest threat to winning it all.
I really don’t understand your comment about Remy. Why would Bill do that to one of our players?
-
@wissox gonna have to ask Bill your guess is as good as mine but everyone knew our O was a mirage with easy schedule.
Sure would be nice if we had ball dominate scoring and distributing Remy when we can’t buy a bucket
-
Well Joe and Zach played today, how’d they look?
-
Bill wants Remy to score, thinking otherwise is just dumb.
-
@BShark scared to make a mistake or else they get the yank. You seen Tristan play defense and rim run at all this year? Different player when his coach instills confidence in him not the short leash one mistake against technical school in November and you’re pulled.
Joe scored 32 on a team Harris and our guards couldn’t get a shot off in the paint. Shows all the potential and now he looks so uncomfortable and not confident out there.
Who do you think did that?
-
@BShark really? What about anything self has said this season early on and how remy’s played constantly passing left and right hardly looking for shots says Bill has encouraged it???
Bill has flat out said he takes bad shots at bad times and is all frustrated. Where you been all season?
Also - Self showing his ignorance fronting Harris with “he’s undefeated in summer ball that’s unheard of” literally had me rolling. Yeah summer ball translates to when the lights come on.
Zach we are told dominates in a practice but never gets any run so the whole show us in practice to get minutes is Bs for mr BS
-
You are putting too much stock in one 9 game hot stretch against mostly bad competition by Yesufu.
-
The far bigger issue for this team is defense, the piece are not there to make it a great defense either. Part of this is recruiting which obviously struggled in 19 and 20.
-
@kuballin10 He wants Remy to score within the system. Dotson, Frank, Graham etc all scored within this system just fine.
-
@BShark said in Bill Self "growth stunter":
The far bigger issue for this team is defense, the piece are not there to make it a great defense either. Part of this is recruiting which obviously struggled in 19 and 20.
Agree. Not going to be a great defensive team. Need to score.
-
@BShark what did he do against the best when the lights were the brightest? Apply your same logic and mine to our guys last year.
You probably played sports. A great coach is tough but instills confidence while wanting you to improve.
Billy never spoke well about Remy from day 1. Everyone’s talked about them “gelling” or each “giving a little”.
That’s all Bill’s fault. He should say we want remy’s D to catch up with his O. He’s so quick he should get 2-3 steals a game and control the game on both ends. We already know he can create just honing in the timing while staying aggressive.
Instead he pumps Harris’ summer gym record like it matters or anyone gives a crap but clearly Billy does…
Meanwhile he trashed remy even when remy saved us one game it was negativity when asked
That’s just being an @$$ not a great coach I’d expect
