Talent Wins Games
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@jayhawks2010 defense is want too but you gotta have the athletes to compete. Self’s defensive scheme isn’t aggressive it’s not to give up easy baskets. We collapse on passes inside leaving us exposed and too slow to get back to the three point line.
I think if we were a solid defense team this year that would have been shown. If that was the case I 100% agree an msu like run with Och carrying us, Dave becoming ncaa Dave and Wilson/Braun stepping up it’s doable.
Hard pressed to put on that red and blue colored glasses and envision it but these next three games are the measuring stick.
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@jayhawks2010 I feel a similar sentiment. I’ve thought that this team with a lucky draw could make a run.
I do still hate watching Cal and K routinely have athletes that we don’t. Doke being bookended by Landen and Dave is crazy. UK had 4 guys who could jump higher than anyone in our team and literally were able to just use athleticism to win vs skill by playing above the rim all game.
As much as people are like “I don’t want OADs” and don’t want to return to the times where we land 4 guys in the top 20, I’m ready to see our roster start playing in ways that other teams just literally can’t stop because we are bigger/stronger/faster/taller than them. 2020 felt like that with Doke and Dot, so I do give Bill a pass for such bad luck. But it’ is still frustrating.
I also do think we need to knock Bill a little here for bringing absolutely nothing to this team with the transfer market. Glaring hole athletically, and we added nothing. Yesterday was frustrating because it felt like UK did everything right this off-season and we didn’t. Added freak athlete freshmen. Added a top tier ATHLETIC C. Found a PG distributor to utilize said athleticism. Added a dead eye shooter to give those athletes space.
We added 2 PGs who don’t play and a D2 C who won’t play a game for us. We added freshman who are all role players (and the only one who can contribute barely plays). We start the worlds clumsiest C and his sub is a 6’7 D2 caliber player.
Absolutely an epic failure at creating a roster.
With all of that negativity said, this team is still good. Bill Self is a top tier in-game coach. They could make noise in the tourney with the right draw and some heroics from Och and Remy. So I’m not ready to count them out.
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On the other side of this, I love next seasons class.
4 Above the rim players. Probably all of them multi-year guys (if not that is probably a good thing). The Sunrise Pipeline is in full effect and I think we will start to see the caliber of teams we expect to see again
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The Adidas era is a chilling place to be. Used against us by blue blood recruiters.
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@jayhawks2010 When UK just played ordinary during the second half we played them almost even.
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@Zabudda said in Talent Wins Games:
The Adidas era is a chilling place to be. Used against us by blue blood recruiters.
Adidas is responsible for 2/4 of our current class assuming they closed the deal on Rice. Nike circuit has more talent of course though.
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@Kcmatt7 said in Talent Wins Games:
On the other side of this, I love next seasons class.
4 Above the rim players. Probably all of them multi-year guys (if not that is probably a good thing). The Sunrise Pipeline is in full effect and I think we will start to see the caliber of teams we expect to see again
Rice if he shows up is for sure OAD. Talent wise, probably should be a multi-year guy but mindset is OAD.
@Kcmatt7 said in Talent Wins Games:
@jayhawks2010 I feel a similar sentiment. I’ve thought that this team with a lucky draw could make a run.
I do still hate watching Cal and K routinely have athletes that we don’t. Doke being bookended by Landen and Dave is crazy. UK had 4 guys who could jump higher than anyone in our team and literally were able to just use athleticism to win vs skill by playing above the rim all game.
As much as people are like “I don’t want OADs” and don’t want to return to the times where we land 4 guys in the top 20, I’m ready to see our roster start playing in ways that other teams just literally can’t stop because we are bigger/stronger/faster/taller than them. 2020 felt like that with Doke and Dot, so I do give Bill a pass for such bad luck. But it’ is still frustrating.
I also do think we need to knock Bill a little here for bringing absolutely nothing to this team with the transfer market. Glaring hole athletically, and we added nothing. Yesterday was frustrating because it felt like UK did everything right this off-season and we didn’t. Added freak athlete freshmen. Added a top tier ATHLETIC C. Found a PG distributor to utilize said athleticism. Added a dead eye shooter to give those athletes space.
We added 2 PGs who don’t play and a D2 C who won’t play a game for us. We added freshman who are all role players (and the only one who can contribute barely plays). We start the worlds clumsiest C and his sub is a 6’7 D2 caliber player.
Absolutely an epic failure at creating a roster.
With all of that negativity said, this team is still good. Bill Self is a top tier in-game coach. They could make noise in the tourney with the right draw and some heroics from Och and Remy. So I’m not ready to count them out.
We absolutely should have got a 5 to play real minutes. Someone like Kofi was worth promising a starting spot to.
The more I see Wheeler I am convinced he would actually play for us unlike Remy. Not sure how much better if any that would make us but he seems like a guard that Self would love.
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https://twitter.com/JayhawkTalk/status/1487829730858569736?s=20&t=69iVaNMHs3dZrX-n9LED4g
The responses to this tweet are a pretty good feeling for where the fan base is after the way last season ended and last night went…
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@Kcmatt7 coach has played a lot of freshmen.
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@Kcmatt7 very much so people are seeing it
Next year if Dave comes back anyone think he won’t start over Udeh
Harris over pettiford and Joe
Braun over rice or Grady or both
It’s easy to see how people are frustrated
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@Crimsonorblue22 I think ultimately the sentiment is that Bill plays worse athletes he feels are more “coachable” or whatever, vs his better athletes.
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@Kcmatt7 well it’s not mine
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@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t think anyone ever thought it was your opinion.
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@Kcmatt7 that’s not what I meant
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@BShark said in Talent Wins Games:
@Zabudda said in Talent Wins Games:
The Adidas era is a chilling place to be. Used against us by blue blood recruiters.
Adidas is responsible for 2/4 of our current class assuming they closed the deal on Rice. Nike circuit has more talent of course though.
I’m just talking about the pending NCAA case.
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This crappy coaching job still has managed somehow to go 17-3 against the hardest schedule in the nation.
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@mayjay said in Talent Wins Games:
This crappy coaching job still has managed somehow to go 17-3 against the hardest schedule in the nation.
Thank you. It kind of makes me scratch my head. When were winning everything is Peaches and Cream we have a HOF Coach - people talk about he doesn’t lose at home and what a hell of a Coach wouldn’t trade him for any other in Basketball , then w lose like last night and the Earth is standing still and tired ol Bill running that same old tired offense - - how he plays favorites when he has better players on short lease on the Bench- just think OMG people and these are the same people that just drool over or about him when he is winning – which is a hell of a lot more often then not.
Thing is too he has these kind of records yr after yr after yr with the short leash and playing favorites. - -Then you got people who says he can’t recruit top players anymore - A lot of these past couple of years and even at that they haven’t been trash BUT a lot of reason for it is this Damm NCAA investigation. You don’t opposition Coach’s aren’t playing the investigation and possible probation card against Bil to the hilt ? - -I mean come on , you can’t be that thick- -you dam well they are - -Would say got a pretty dam good class coming in next year is pretty dam good. - Just amazes me how quick people turn- love to ride the bandwagon when things are good but if there is a hic cup- they can’t wait to jump off and talk shade.
Coach does what he can do – it’s up to the players to execute and make the correct decisions - -Bill draws the plays - -the players run the play - - -OR NOT. - – Kentucky is ONE game. - In no way does it make or break our Season - it doesn’t have any effect on the Conference and the only thing the Uk loss might have an effect on POSSIBLY might effect the seeding in the Tourney - – OR NOT - if your a fan then your a fan - -good times - - bad times - - so so times - NOT just when the guys are winning -We all knew or should of known -this team was not a really dominating team - and it became quite obvious short into the Season we were in trouble at the 5 - -it’s gonna be ok - -
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The way I see it, there’s two sides to this sword. On one side, the talent on the roster and the coaching keeps most games close and their talent is enough to win the close games against most opponents.
However on the other side of things I see a team that lacks elite talent, lacks scoring, lacks the attack mentality, relies too heavily on one or two players, is content to take the easy path and shoot long jumpshots all game. Some of the best KU teams I remember always had that attack mentality and/or were high tempo runners. Harris to me is hurting this team because he is no threat to score and you really don’t need to defend him all that well. He should do one thing during the offseason, its watch film of Collins, Mason, & Dotson, the three best players I can recall that could drive the lane and score at the hoop. If he could learn to be great at that one thing, this team might become a title contender. Pettiford is better than Harris at this right now which is why I think he should be the one playing. Driving the lane and attacking leads to more easy buckets, more fouls/foul shots, possible foul trouble for the other team, kickouts for open threes, etc. Instead we are coached to run the weave, to pass first, not attack. Can anyone recall a game recently where our opponent was put into foul trouble because of our attacking?
The other option is to run run run. Think back to the Kevin Young teams. I swear, the opponent would make a basket and we’d inbound the ball so fast and beat them back down the court for a layup. I remember ally-oops from almost half court. Thats how you play freely and use athletes to your advantage. Having this approach is another way of attacking and puts pressure on the opponent to get back on defense fast rather than crashing the offensive boards with 3-4 players like we’re seeing now. Just watch, every time the opponent makes a hoop the ball just bounces around for a few seconds, someone walks over to pick it up, sometimes they wait for the opponent to setup a soft press, then they inbound it. The team is missing an attack identity that I think is necessary to really win the title. This is where i think coaching has some responsibility.
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@mayjay said in Talent Wins Games:
This crappy coaching job still has managed somehow to go 17-3 against the hardest schedule in the nation.
Not a comment on the coaching, but just our record against the “hardest schedule in the nation.” Our schedule strength is wholly a reflection of the fact that all the teams we’ve played are at least decent, to good, as well as the fact that all B12 are ranked fairly high (were all top 60 in Kenpom). I’m not sure there is a Quad 4 team in the bunch - probably only a few Quads 3. BUT - how many wins do we have against teams that are potentially second weekend tournament teams? 2 - MSU and TTU. One, the first game of the season and one in 2OT at home. How many teams have we even played that are likely at-large selections? Just UK, MSU, TTU, ISU and maybe Iona and one of OU or WVU. That’s it. We got hammered by UK, barely split against TTU, and we’ll see after tomorrow with ISU. Other than that, we’ve only beaten the bottom half of the league so far.
The point is that I’m not sure that we are even close to as good as our record - and statistical strength of schedule - suggests. At least we haven’t yet proven it against many tournament caliber teams.
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Yea just think how easily they could be 15-5 or 14-6. KSU, TTU and ISU all could have gone another way.
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If you want “the sky is actually falling” visit the phog board. The absolute coaching failure thread has some pure gold.
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This reminds me of my time at Michigan. Spoiled fan base for certain!
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@BeddieKU23 said in Talent Wins Games:
If you want “the sky is actually falling” visit the phog board. The absolute coaching failure thread has some pure gold.
ya been there - - done that , wasn’t necessarily limiting my post to this site - -PHOG is absolutely ridiculous -I’ve read their little posts, like stated like a Spoiled little fan base Golden spooned. for God’s sakes teams are going to get beat- -and badly on given days. If people didn’t realize that this was a very easily scenario then they were just hidding behind Apron strings - -people should of seen this coming. - -It’s NOT the end of the world. We just flat ass got beat by a better club that day & chances are we will get a whuppin pretty good AGAIN somewhere down the line. - -Next yr we get reinforcement’s very well might not be that way.
Like I said not limited to this site there are just some people who aren’t happy unless they win every game zero turnovers , zero fouls , and out rebound opponents every game… - As far as the Coaching part itself I’ll still take Coach anytime of the week. Day in - -Day out. there have been just to many occasions during his career his winning % against other ranked opponent where he has won I’m not questioning his reasoning/ability/ decisions to lead the team . When a guy has a 297-18 winning % of 94.3 % at home and many of those coming against other ranked teams - -sometimes highly ranked teams & I’m sure even during those times I’m sure there are some idiots STILL questioning WHY he didn’t play this player or that player in certain times even though we won Questioning Coach’s deciding players minutes. - - IF a guy is winning 94.3 % of his games at the Phog and hate to think what his overall winning % is - -I’M NOT QUESTIONING the guys Coaching’s decisions.
Therre is a reason he is at where he is at and we are at where we are at, and a lot of it is knowledge of the games and situations of the game. - Let me be perfectly clear again I’m not saying you or even some others here are the whiners-- but generally overall it’s just insane the way some think
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@jayballer67 you’ve been warning us of an impending Kentucky beat down for weeks.
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Highs and Lows of following your favorite team. It’s a message board(s) where people express what they feel, what they want. We all are passionate, maybe even get heated, say things we don’t actually mean and that’s easy when things go badly as they did Saturday. When things are cookin’ and wins are piling up its easy to relax a bit and enjoy. When you lose by 18, not so much.
The blowouts seem to bring out more views since it usually only occurs when KU doesn’t play well for all or a majority of the game. We’ve had some pretty bad losses in recent memory, some in the regular season, some in the post-season. As the original post hits on, we just need some dudes and looks like we have a recruiting class that is expected of a blue-blood program. Would be nice if we sustained those classes. I think Self can maintain and get some more success landing more recruiting classes like this one and sprinkling in some good transfers.
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@BeddieKU23 I do visit, and they are on tilt. But it’s always on tilt…it doesn’t take a loss to send them over the edge.
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I read over there too for giggles, agree and good way to put it. Savages over there
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This post is deleted!
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@approxinfinity said in Talent Wins Games:
@jayballer67 you’ve been warning us of an impending Kentucky beat down for weeks.
I & BShark siad as much. Not really a knock but this team just not as talented and a lot of clos games just several factors buddy it sucked I agree but I mean the sun still came up the next day Kentucky is good , they got length - - they got a pure outside shooter , and they have Oscar on top of the fact I just think we was living on borrowed time. - Thanks for the your input buddy
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@BeddieKU23 said in Talent Wins Games:
Highs and Lows of following your favorite team. It’s a message board(s) where people express what they feel, what they want. We all are passionate, maybe even get heated, say things we don’t actually mean and that’s easy when things go badly as they did Saturday. When things are cookin’ and wins are piling up its easy to relax a bit and enjoy. When you lose by 18, not so much.
The blowouts seem to bring out more views since it usually only occurs when KU doesn’t play well for all or a majority of the game. We’ve had some pretty bad losses in recent memory, some in the regular season, some in the post-season. As the original post hits on, we just need some dudes and looks like we have a recruiting class that is expected of a blue-blood program. Would be nice if we sustained those classes. I think Self can maintain and get some more success landing more recruiting classes like this one and sprinkling in some good transfers.
Very well stated buddy Thank you appreciated much
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@Kcmatt7 said in Talent Wins Games:
Yea just think how easily they could be 15-5 or 14-6. KSU, TTU and ISU all could have gone another way.
And Dayton and the first tech game also could have gone either way and we’d be a one loss team…
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@DCHawker exactly 17-3 is awesome but also some smoke and mirrors if we watched the games.
We saw what the sec just did to the big 12 and it wasn’t pretty. Chances a big 12 makes a final four is diminishing as Baylor isn’t a final four team without lj cryer.
Kudos those to our guys for showing toughness to comeback against kstate and hanging on in double OT against tech.
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@kuballin10 said in Talent Wins Games:
@DCHawker exactly 17-3 is awesome but also some smoke and mirrors if we watched the games.
We saw what the sec just did to the big 12 and it wasn’t pretty. Chances a big 12 makes a final four is diminishing as Baylor isn’t a final four team without lj cryer.
Kudos those to our guys for showing toughness to comeback against kstate and hanging on in double OT against tech.
I’m not sure how much I would read into the games with the SEC. Every home team won, except the Hawks. IF we had held serve it would have been 5-5. The 4 teams that didn’t play are from the bottom half of the conference, including GA, which is just bad.
I do think their best 2 are better than ours - clearly more athletic. But, I might give a slight edge to our top 6 compared to theirs. Then, a slight edge back to them for their top 10 against all of ours.
Regardless, they are conferences with the most quality nonconference wins and teams capable of making E8 or FF runs.
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@DCHawker I agree with you on that. They are top heavy and better athletic conference.
We have probably a better mix of teams but all with not as high of ceilings.
I don’t like the narrative Self didn’t amp up our guys because Frank and graham went in and upset tucky a few years ago was an incredible game.
We just didn’t have the horses.
Taking from the other site scroll down look at those pictures tech’s guy literally has his back to Harris there is no see man see ball even geez https://247sports.com/college/kansas/board/103719/Contents/why-isnt-remy-in-the-game-181382985/?page=27
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I’ve all but quit posting on the Phog hoops board. Absolute toxic mess over there. Still DM some posters and limit my consumption to the football board. Small, but dedicated and generally pleasant group over there.
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@FarmerJayhawk Some absolute banger threads after the UK game.
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I’ve delivered a few lumps to you coming in here with some big ideas… but I’m glad you are stirring the pot in here. We all need fresh ideas. Overall, I’m a big Self fan for many reasons… not all his coaching on the floor. But I have a critical side, too.
I’m not sure the right direction with Remy. Self’s approach is defense first. And… if he lets everything go by him we will never have the potential to defend because defense is a team sport. One bad defender kind of blows it for everyone.
There are a lot of dynamics involved when bringing in a new guy and thinking you can just hand the keys to team over to him. I’m yet to see an example anywhere where the guy coming in didn’t have to earn cred first.
I am seeing some of your argument on how Remy has been coached here… but I still don’t think it’s that simple. None of us in here are on the team and know how practice goes and how the guys connect exactly on the court and off.
I’m curious… you just showed up in here. Might you consider giving us all a proper intro. You don’t need to post your real name. But how about some bio info… where did you grow up… experience with the game… etc. Let’s make this a little more personal and not all Xs and Os. I’m curious if you are from the Midwest. Just my opinion here… but I think part of Self’s popularity is his Midwest mannerism. He talks in Midwest sentences and thoughts. I am from this area so I understand him easily.
I grew up here but visited Southern California in my youth summers… and I was all about UCLA and Wooden. I got a good taste of Wooden’s approach. Teaching players how to tie their hightops (back when you laced them up), etc. etc. Walton shows up to practice in his pajamas. I venture to say that Self wouldn’t appreciate a gag like that and someone would buy a lot of pine for pulling a stunt like that around him.
What I’m getting at is… give us some background on yourself and lets put the dots together.
Thanks…
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@BShark good lookin well spoken kid.
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Play him Bill let him grow instill confidence in him. Be hard on him when he messes up but man push him when he gets it…if only we can see practice and the mental games
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@tis4tim he’s still blind lol
I took that more as kudos going around to most of the guys who played because that was a huge win in a tough environment
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@kuballin10 said in Talent Wins Games:
I took that more as kudos going around to most of the guys who played because that was a huge win in a tough environment
I can buy that. Seems like Braun or Wilson deserved more of a shout out though.
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Is he any good??
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@BeddieKU23 The ladies seem to think so. They all call his name…
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@FarmerJayhawk said in Talent Wins Games:
I’ve all but quit posting on the Phog hoops board. Absolute toxic mess over there.
Yup. Me too. Just unpleasant. Only a few over here I’ve blocked…
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Matchups matter in March.
We are not without flaws, but so are others. The flaw revealed by UK was simply talent and athleticism. The good news is that no team can make that adjustment in March. They will have what they have. The bad news is the the NCAA committee will now know where to find our kryptonite.
Nonetheless, there aren’t that many teams that can bring the talent that UK brings. We should be able to get to the second weekend before any kryptonite teams are in our path.
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I don’t think self prepped much for that game. If we see them again, we will be better, not saying we can beat them, but better.
