Talent Wins Games
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Coach doesn’t seem to worry about playing high level games in non conference or the tournament. Seems he’s more focused on trying to win the conference more than anything else.
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Bill Self said KU is going to forget about this one.
“I’m not going to dwell on this one and make it out to be bigger than what it is.” #kubball
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@Jethro said in Talent Wins Games:
Coach doesn’t seem to worry about playing high level games in non conference or the tournament. Seems he’s more focused on trying to win the conference more than anything else.
Good ole Self When you can’t win it all just set the bar lower and be happy.
Good thing we aren’t a blue bloo…oh wait
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@Jethro said in Talent Wins Games:
Bill Self said KU is going to forget about this one.
“I’m not going to dwell on this one and make it out to be bigger than what it is.” #kubball
The one game he should watch the most tape of he’s going to not even make this out to be bigger than it is.
Yeah makes perfect sense when you are absolutely exposed in any sport or business don’t go back to the drawing board and look to improve instead just keep doing what you’re doing. Genius
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@kuballin10 sure that’s what he says.
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This post is deleted!
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@approxinfinity it is what he says Sam Lance tweeted it
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@Jethro don’t hate him either or think I can do better. It’s a KU board discussing lineups, potential issues and shortcomings and triumphant are the purpose.
He’s not infallible just because I disagree with him doesn’t mean I think “I can coach better than self why hasn’t ku called me”.
I hate posters like this making stupid straw man arguments instead of just discussing the topic at hand.
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@approxinfinity I went back and watched the post press conference, and there is context. He was saying it’s important to not dwell on the loss. Yes, it sucks, but we live to play another day.
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Yikes
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@kuballin10 said in Talent Wins Games:
@Jethro said in Talent Wins Games:
Bill Self said KU is going to forget about this one.
“I’m not going to dwell on this one and make it out to be bigger than what it is.” #kubball
The one game he should watch the most tape of he’s going to not even make this out to be bigger than it is.
Yeah makes perfect sense when you are absolutely exposed in any sport or business don’t go back to the drawing board and look to improve instead just keep doing what you’re doing. Genius
What exactly did we learn about this team today that wasn’t already well known about this group? This is a bad defensive team, that’s not new. This team struggles to score against more athletic teams, again, already well established with this group.
This freshmen class, while generally more athletic, is also a pretty low skilled group of players. KJ and Pettiford aren’t really threats to score yet. Pettiford also can’t handle being pressured on offense yet. KJ had 0 rebounds in 11 minutes today so his minutes weren’t exactly positive today. When Clemence has played, he’s the worst defender on the team amd that’s saying something with this team. Yesufu, there’s a reason he didn’t start at a mid major last year and that’s because he’s a very inconsistent player.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re expecting Self to learn about this team that he’s not already very aware of.
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Wow… that was ugly! We weren’t a Top 20 team tonight. UK is a decent team but we made them look like superstars.
I’m not going to say we are a bad defensive team because that lets our guys off the hook. They are capable of playing decent defense… but they didn’t do it tonight. So they should take the blame. And though KSU isn’t a great team… we managed a huge comeback on their court and that didn’t happen without defense. I do agree with @Texas-Hawk-10… we don’t stand up well against more athletic teams. It just seems like we give up. That’s what I saw tonight. That is why it was ugly. I’ve seen KU fight and lose to hot teams… but this was such a cakewalk for UK. Looked effortless. We never made them struggle at all. Even Bilis mentioned it at one point, when he wasn’t complaining about the refs.
Sometimes it just looks like we are boys and we get beat when we play men. Let’s spike the watercooler with testosterone… see if that helps! lol
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@Texas-Hawk-10 we agree on kj and pettiford. Pettiford can actually beat his man off the dribble and the other team will guard him unlike Harris. As a coach you know 4 on 5 kills offensive spacing and is an issue.
KJ is just because you have no other choice.
Clemence should have absolutely played more. Was fine against mstate and he can score. Yes, he’s bad defensively but have you see Mitch or Dave or the rest of this team especially the guard who get blown by every play?
Defense is what matters Joe can stop ball. You can spew mid major crap get plenty of guys make the jump From mid major to big d1 just fine.
You want one better? Guy is up there for mvp…went from mid major to the nba ja morant. Mid majors clean our clock often in the tourney away from the friendly confines of Allen. No, Joe ain’t ja and yes, his coach too figured it out late he has a guy who can get anywhere on the court he wants when he wants and finally said “go score” and Joe did. He scored and he took it away. I watch more Drake than most due to some family who went there and we were all excited for Joe coming here only to see his career hit a road block.
Self prefers his system over helping guys become the best players they can. They are limited to excelling in what he wants from them in his system.
Same reason the nba never was an option or will be the guys up there all talk…it’s why he has minimal to no involvement in team USA stuff at the nba level.
Maximize this teams potential and he definitely has not. Without Och oh boy can’t fathom where we’d be.
Nothing like Harris playing over remy to start the year and remy not even looking to score. Keep his aggression but direct it defensively as well instead it was all defense no offense remy. Just atrocious philosophy on motivating and improving players.
Like your input and banter keep it coming sure beats the “oh you want self fired huh, oh go apply at ku athletics for the job” bs most message boards are full of when guys have zero to contribute because they know nothing.
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@kuballin10 said in Talent Wins Games:
@Texas-Hawk-10 we agree on kj and pettiford. Pettiford can actually beat his man off the dribble and the other team will guard him unlike Harris. As a coach you know 4 on 5 kills offensive spacing and is an issue.
KJ is just because you have no other choice.
Clemence should have absolutely played more. Was fine against mstate and he can score. Yes, he’s bad defensively but have you see Mitch or Dave or the rest of this team especially the guard who get blown by every play?
Defense is what matters Joe can stop ball. You can spew mid major crap get plenty of guys make the jump From mid major to big d1 just fine.
You want one better? Guy is up there for mvp…went from mid major to the nba ja morant. Mid majors clean our clock often in the tourney away from the friendly confines of Allen. No, Joe ain’t ja and yes, his coach too figured it out late he has a guy who can get anywhere on the court he wants when he wants and finally said “go score” and Joe did. He scored and he took it away. I watch more Drake than most due to some family who went there and we were all excited for Joe coming here only to see his career hit a road block.
Self prefers his system over helping guys become the best players they can. They are limited to excelling in what he wants from them in his system.
Same reason the nba never was an option or will be the guys up there all talk…it’s why he has minimal to no involvement in team USA stuff at the nba level.
Maximize this teams potential and he definitely has not. Without Och oh boy can’t fathom where we’d be.
Nothing like Harris playing over remy to start the year and remy not even looking to score. Keep his aggression but direct it defensively as well instead it was all defense no offense remy. Just atrocious philosophy on motivating and improving players.
Like your input and banter keep it coming sure beats the “oh you want self fired huh, oh go apply at ku athletics for the job” bs most message boards are full of when guys have zero to contribute because they know nothing.
hey it’s me- - - HI remember me I’m the one that told you to go apply - -gotta say your on a roll tonight-- I know just a little about the game myself thanks for the props , yet I think maybe just maybe I’m gonna lean a little more on the input advice of our HOF Coach that might just know a little about the X’s and O’s - hell maybe might just know a little more then you - -can’t be sure. I do know I’m not going to just sit and watch some idiot just keep ranting and raving and say nothing. Again you don’t like how Coach is handling the team there Mr Couch Potato Coach of the year. Then trot your happy ass to his office - - let him know give him hell I’m sure he would love your input, give him the same theory about how he fails with his Coaching style. - -hell you came here and started your rant from the word go. Like others said all you got to say is Bash the program - - and bash the Coach. - If your so unhappy with the way things are being done - there is always other Schools with better Coach’s you can give your Coaching knowledge , so knock yourself out - -speaking of your quote Bs ya – listen to what your saying lmao - -don’t worry I’m gonna be right here - look forward to hear your awesome response -you add some spunk - - -got to be worth at least 5 Atta boys Dam mercy Man relax your gonna be all right. the Sun is still gonna come up in the East and Set in the West life goes on- It’s one fricken game. I bet there are many many Schools that would love to be 17-3 at this point of the Season
For a Guy that shows favortism and longer leashes to some players the guy must be doing something right.- - How many consectitive weeks have we been ranked in the top 25 - -leading the Nation, here is a guy that has won just as Many NCAA titles as Cal has since he has been at Kentucky - - -relax buddy it’s not the end of the world like you try and make it out - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@kuballin10 I mean that’s what he says but I have a hard time believing he won’t watch it. Kind of a thing you say to make the fans move on.
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My theory is he doesn’t care about the B12/SEC challenge. Last year, we lose at Tennessee 80-61. This year we lose 80-62. Jaybate used to say that Coach would amp up his teams in certain situations. He certainly didn’t have them amped yesterday. Our schedule is we play at Cloneland against a ranked Clone squad, followed up with a huge home game against the defending national champions, followed by a road tilt against a ranked UT team. The fact he gave the team two days off during the week leads me to believe he is trying to save his powder for the next 3. I think he knows how limited we really are, and knows we’re on real shaky ground. BSHARK is right- we’re not going to get better until we see some new faces next year.
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He said as much in his pressers that this game meant more to fans then what he was focused on.
After watching the game I’m sure he is smart enough to know his team wasn’t just beat, they were completely overmatched by the other teams players. And that’s a common criticism that keeps popping up. Kansas keeps losing badly to teams that have athletes.
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@Jethro said in Talent Wins Games:
My theory is he doesn’t care about the B12/SEC challenge. Last year, we lose at Tennessee 80-61. This year we lose 80-62. Jaybate used to say that Coach would amp up his teams in certain situations. He certainly didn’t have them amped yesterday. Our schedule is we play at Cloneland against a ranked Clone squad, followed up with a huge home game against the defending national champions, followed by a road tilt against a ranked UT team. The fact he gave the team two days off during the week leads me to believe he is trying to save his powder for the next 3. I think he knows how limited we really are, and knows we’re on real shaky ground. BSHARK is right- we’re not going to get better until we see some new faces next year.
I can sort of get behind this theory. But why then play the starters the whole game when you are getting blasted? If you’re trying to save some energy for conference, pull the starters and play the bench guys the last five minutes. That will also prevent possible injury in a lost cause of a game.
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UK flew in from another planet expecting a Buck Rogers type resistance. Instead they got to watch Earth Girls Are Easy. They went straight to the hole to see how much of a fight we would put up but we said “Take me i’m yours.” (Frank Zappa).
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@BeddieKU23 Dayton Michigan Oregon Arizona St USC Kentucky. It’s definitely a thing.
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Honestly this team is a good team but not a great one. Let’s see what Self can do. He’s rarely overachieved with his teams potential in the tourney. Now partly it’s because he’s usually had great/top 5 type teams. This team reminds me of like every Izzo team. Good players with only 1-2 really nba level guys. Typically, Look way outclassed against superior athletes but then in the tourney play rugged defense and smart basketball. Grind their way to a final four and everyone is like how in the hell did msu make the final four. But once they are their, they have no real shot to win it all. And typically lose in a non competitive final four game…… how different do we think about these last 4 years if we actually get to play in that tourney with senior doke
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@approxinfinity said in Talent Wins Games:
@BeddieKU23 Dayton Michigan Oregon Arizona St USC Kentucky. It’s definitely a thing.
No doubt even had some in big 12 play getting blown out
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@jayhawks2010 defense is want too but you gotta have the athletes to compete. Self’s defensive scheme isn’t aggressive it’s not to give up easy baskets. We collapse on passes inside leaving us exposed and too slow to get back to the three point line.
I think if we were a solid defense team this year that would have been shown. If that was the case I 100% agree an msu like run with Och carrying us, Dave becoming ncaa Dave and Wilson/Braun stepping up it’s doable.
Hard pressed to put on that red and blue colored glasses and envision it but these next three games are the measuring stick.
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@jayhawks2010 I feel a similar sentiment. I’ve thought that this team with a lucky draw could make a run.
I do still hate watching Cal and K routinely have athletes that we don’t. Doke being bookended by Landen and Dave is crazy. UK had 4 guys who could jump higher than anyone in our team and literally were able to just use athleticism to win vs skill by playing above the rim all game.
As much as people are like “I don’t want OADs” and don’t want to return to the times where we land 4 guys in the top 20, I’m ready to see our roster start playing in ways that other teams just literally can’t stop because we are bigger/stronger/faster/taller than them. 2020 felt like that with Doke and Dot, so I do give Bill a pass for such bad luck. But it’ is still frustrating.
I also do think we need to knock Bill a little here for bringing absolutely nothing to this team with the transfer market. Glaring hole athletically, and we added nothing. Yesterday was frustrating because it felt like UK did everything right this off-season and we didn’t. Added freak athlete freshmen. Added a top tier ATHLETIC C. Found a PG distributor to utilize said athleticism. Added a dead eye shooter to give those athletes space.
We added 2 PGs who don’t play and a D2 C who won’t play a game for us. We added freshman who are all role players (and the only one who can contribute barely plays). We start the worlds clumsiest C and his sub is a 6’7 D2 caliber player.
Absolutely an epic failure at creating a roster.
With all of that negativity said, this team is still good. Bill Self is a top tier in-game coach. They could make noise in the tourney with the right draw and some heroics from Och and Remy. So I’m not ready to count them out.
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On the other side of this, I love next seasons class.
4 Above the rim players. Probably all of them multi-year guys (if not that is probably a good thing). The Sunrise Pipeline is in full effect and I think we will start to see the caliber of teams we expect to see again
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The Adidas era is a chilling place to be. Used against us by blue blood recruiters.
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@jayhawks2010 When UK just played ordinary during the second half we played them almost even.
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@Zabudda said in Talent Wins Games:
The Adidas era is a chilling place to be. Used against us by blue blood recruiters.
Adidas is responsible for 2/4 of our current class assuming they closed the deal on Rice. Nike circuit has more talent of course though.
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@Kcmatt7 said in Talent Wins Games:
On the other side of this, I love next seasons class.
4 Above the rim players. Probably all of them multi-year guys (if not that is probably a good thing). The Sunrise Pipeline is in full effect and I think we will start to see the caliber of teams we expect to see again
Rice if he shows up is for sure OAD. Talent wise, probably should be a multi-year guy but mindset is OAD.
@Kcmatt7 said in Talent Wins Games:
@jayhawks2010 I feel a similar sentiment. I’ve thought that this team with a lucky draw could make a run.
I do still hate watching Cal and K routinely have athletes that we don’t. Doke being bookended by Landen and Dave is crazy. UK had 4 guys who could jump higher than anyone in our team and literally were able to just use athleticism to win vs skill by playing above the rim all game.
As much as people are like “I don’t want OADs” and don’t want to return to the times where we land 4 guys in the top 20, I’m ready to see our roster start playing in ways that other teams just literally can’t stop because we are bigger/stronger/faster/taller than them. 2020 felt like that with Doke and Dot, so I do give Bill a pass for such bad luck. But it’ is still frustrating.
I also do think we need to knock Bill a little here for bringing absolutely nothing to this team with the transfer market. Glaring hole athletically, and we added nothing. Yesterday was frustrating because it felt like UK did everything right this off-season and we didn’t. Added freak athlete freshmen. Added a top tier ATHLETIC C. Found a PG distributor to utilize said athleticism. Added a dead eye shooter to give those athletes space.
We added 2 PGs who don’t play and a D2 C who won’t play a game for us. We added freshman who are all role players (and the only one who can contribute barely plays). We start the worlds clumsiest C and his sub is a 6’7 D2 caliber player.
Absolutely an epic failure at creating a roster.
With all of that negativity said, this team is still good. Bill Self is a top tier in-game coach. They could make noise in the tourney with the right draw and some heroics from Och and Remy. So I’m not ready to count them out.
We absolutely should have got a 5 to play real minutes. Someone like Kofi was worth promising a starting spot to.
The more I see Wheeler I am convinced he would actually play for us unlike Remy. Not sure how much better if any that would make us but he seems like a guard that Self would love.
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https://twitter.com/JayhawkTalk/status/1487829730858569736?s=20&t=69iVaNMHs3dZrX-n9LED4g
The responses to this tweet are a pretty good feeling for where the fan base is after the way last season ended and last night went…
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@Kcmatt7 coach has played a lot of freshmen.
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@Kcmatt7 very much so people are seeing it
Next year if Dave comes back anyone think he won’t start over Udeh
Harris over pettiford and Joe
Braun over rice or Grady or both
It’s easy to see how people are frustrated
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@Crimsonorblue22 I think ultimately the sentiment is that Bill plays worse athletes he feels are more “coachable” or whatever, vs his better athletes.
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@Kcmatt7 well it’s not mine
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@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t think anyone ever thought it was your opinion.
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@Kcmatt7 that’s not what I meant
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@BShark said in Talent Wins Games:
@Zabudda said in Talent Wins Games:
The Adidas era is a chilling place to be. Used against us by blue blood recruiters.
Adidas is responsible for 2/4 of our current class assuming they closed the deal on Rice. Nike circuit has more talent of course though.
I’m just talking about the pending NCAA case.
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This crappy coaching job still has managed somehow to go 17-3 against the hardest schedule in the nation.
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@mayjay said in Talent Wins Games:
This crappy coaching job still has managed somehow to go 17-3 against the hardest schedule in the nation.
Thank you. It kind of makes me scratch my head. When were winning everything is Peaches and Cream we have a HOF Coach - people talk about he doesn’t lose at home and what a hell of a Coach wouldn’t trade him for any other in Basketball , then w lose like last night and the Earth is standing still and tired ol Bill running that same old tired offense - - how he plays favorites when he has better players on short lease on the Bench- just think OMG people and these are the same people that just drool over or about him when he is winning – which is a hell of a lot more often then not.
Thing is too he has these kind of records yr after yr after yr with the short leash and playing favorites. - -Then you got people who says he can’t recruit top players anymore - A lot of these past couple of years and even at that they haven’t been trash BUT a lot of reason for it is this Damm NCAA investigation. You don’t opposition Coach’s aren’t playing the investigation and possible probation card against Bil to the hilt ? - -I mean come on , you can’t be that thick- -you dam well they are - -Would say got a pretty dam good class coming in next year is pretty dam good. - Just amazes me how quick people turn- love to ride the bandwagon when things are good but if there is a hic cup- they can’t wait to jump off and talk shade.
Coach does what he can do – it’s up to the players to execute and make the correct decisions - -Bill draws the plays - -the players run the play - - -OR NOT. - – Kentucky is ONE game. - In no way does it make or break our Season - it doesn’t have any effect on the Conference and the only thing the Uk loss might have an effect on POSSIBLY might effect the seeding in the Tourney - – OR NOT - if your a fan then your a fan - -good times - - bad times - - so so times - NOT just when the guys are winning -We all knew or should of known -this team was not a really dominating team - and it became quite obvious short into the Season we were in trouble at the 5 - -it’s gonna be ok - -
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The way I see it, there’s two sides to this sword. On one side, the talent on the roster and the coaching keeps most games close and their talent is enough to win the close games against most opponents.
However on the other side of things I see a team that lacks elite talent, lacks scoring, lacks the attack mentality, relies too heavily on one or two players, is content to take the easy path and shoot long jumpshots all game. Some of the best KU teams I remember always had that attack mentality and/or were high tempo runners. Harris to me is hurting this team because he is no threat to score and you really don’t need to defend him all that well. He should do one thing during the offseason, its watch film of Collins, Mason, & Dotson, the three best players I can recall that could drive the lane and score at the hoop. If he could learn to be great at that one thing, this team might become a title contender. Pettiford is better than Harris at this right now which is why I think he should be the one playing. Driving the lane and attacking leads to more easy buckets, more fouls/foul shots, possible foul trouble for the other team, kickouts for open threes, etc. Instead we are coached to run the weave, to pass first, not attack. Can anyone recall a game recently where our opponent was put into foul trouble because of our attacking?
The other option is to run run run. Think back to the Kevin Young teams. I swear, the opponent would make a basket and we’d inbound the ball so fast and beat them back down the court for a layup. I remember ally-oops from almost half court. Thats how you play freely and use athletes to your advantage. Having this approach is another way of attacking and puts pressure on the opponent to get back on defense fast rather than crashing the offensive boards with 3-4 players like we’re seeing now. Just watch, every time the opponent makes a hoop the ball just bounces around for a few seconds, someone walks over to pick it up, sometimes they wait for the opponent to setup a soft press, then they inbound it. The team is missing an attack identity that I think is necessary to really win the title. This is where i think coaching has some responsibility.
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@mayjay said in Talent Wins Games:
This crappy coaching job still has managed somehow to go 17-3 against the hardest schedule in the nation.
Not a comment on the coaching, but just our record against the “hardest schedule in the nation.” Our schedule strength is wholly a reflection of the fact that all the teams we’ve played are at least decent, to good, as well as the fact that all B12 are ranked fairly high (were all top 60 in Kenpom). I’m not sure there is a Quad 4 team in the bunch - probably only a few Quads 3. BUT - how many wins do we have against teams that are potentially second weekend tournament teams? 2 - MSU and TTU. One, the first game of the season and one in 2OT at home. How many teams have we even played that are likely at-large selections? Just UK, MSU, TTU, ISU and maybe Iona and one of OU or WVU. That’s it. We got hammered by UK, barely split against TTU, and we’ll see after tomorrow with ISU. Other than that, we’ve only beaten the bottom half of the league so far.
The point is that I’m not sure that we are even close to as good as our record - and statistical strength of schedule - suggests. At least we haven’t yet proven it against many tournament caliber teams.
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Yea just think how easily they could be 15-5 or 14-6. KSU, TTU and ISU all could have gone another way.
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If you want “the sky is actually falling” visit the phog board. The absolute coaching failure thread has some pure gold.
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This reminds me of my time at Michigan. Spoiled fan base for certain!
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@BeddieKU23 said in Talent Wins Games:
If you want “the sky is actually falling” visit the phog board. The absolute coaching failure thread has some pure gold.
ya been there - - done that , wasn’t necessarily limiting my post to this site - -PHOG is absolutely ridiculous -I’ve read their little posts, like stated like a Spoiled little fan base Golden spooned. for God’s sakes teams are going to get beat- -and badly on given days. If people didn’t realize that this was a very easily scenario then they were just hidding behind Apron strings - -people should of seen this coming. - -It’s NOT the end of the world. We just flat ass got beat by a better club that day & chances are we will get a whuppin pretty good AGAIN somewhere down the line. - -Next yr we get reinforcement’s very well might not be that way.
Like I said not limited to this site there are just some people who aren’t happy unless they win every game zero turnovers , zero fouls , and out rebound opponents every game… - As far as the Coaching part itself I’ll still take Coach anytime of the week. Day in - -Day out. there have been just to many occasions during his career his winning % against other ranked opponent where he has won I’m not questioning his reasoning/ability/ decisions to lead the team . When a guy has a 297-18 winning % of 94.3 % at home and many of those coming against other ranked teams - -sometimes highly ranked teams & I’m sure even during those times I’m sure there are some idiots STILL questioning WHY he didn’t play this player or that player in certain times even though we won Questioning Coach’s deciding players minutes. - - IF a guy is winning 94.3 % of his games at the Phog and hate to think what his overall winning % is - -I’M NOT QUESTIONING the guys Coaching’s decisions.
Therre is a reason he is at where he is at and we are at where we are at, and a lot of it is knowledge of the games and situations of the game. - Let me be perfectly clear again I’m not saying you or even some others here are the whiners-- but generally overall it’s just insane the way some think
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@jayballer67 you’ve been warning us of an impending Kentucky beat down for weeks.
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Highs and Lows of following your favorite team. It’s a message board(s) where people express what they feel, what they want. We all are passionate, maybe even get heated, say things we don’t actually mean and that’s easy when things go badly as they did Saturday. When things are cookin’ and wins are piling up its easy to relax a bit and enjoy. When you lose by 18, not so much.
The blowouts seem to bring out more views since it usually only occurs when KU doesn’t play well for all or a majority of the game. We’ve had some pretty bad losses in recent memory, some in the regular season, some in the post-season. As the original post hits on, we just need some dudes and looks like we have a recruiting class that is expected of a blue-blood program. Would be nice if we sustained those classes. I think Self can maintain and get some more success landing more recruiting classes like this one and sprinkling in some good transfers.
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@BeddieKU23 I do visit, and they are on tilt. But it’s always on tilt…it doesn’t take a loss to send them over the edge.
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I read over there too for giggles, agree and good way to put it. Savages over there
