WSU grudge
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@HighEliteMajor said in WSU grudge:
But given the responses, I guess we’re not putting Self up on a pedestal then, which is a bit of a change. He lies and cheats like the rest of them.
D1 ball is really about cheating and lying. Just look at recruiting. You are telling one kid how great it would be for him to come to your program while you continue to recruit players right over him.
As fans, the best we can hope for is a coach who can use his words well and limit the harshness of the reality. I’ve always said that a major plus with Self has been his ability to handle his words well.
It is what it is… my mentor in life, my old basketball coach I had going back to the 8th grade told me once that Jesus would make a horrible coach.
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@benshawks08 said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That’s what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he’d likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.
Wonderful point.
Those currently virtue signaling literally just wrote that they wouldn’t care about the cheating as long as they got what they wanted. So it isn’t even about honesty and integrity. It really is just virtue signaling. Thank you for bringing this up.
The only person mocking honesty and integrity is the one saying they don’t care about either virtue, providing they get what they want in return.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:
We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn’t take a buy game and there’s no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.
I focus more on the Xs and Os than counting beans. But I bet we give up a large amount of revenue currently lost on t-shrts and coffee mugs. And more than anything, it gives us another big game every year to put on a major sports television outlet. I know I tend to watch the UK/Louisville game every year regardless if one team is having a bad year. It seems like we are better off if we help programs in our geographic region. It gets pretty lonely being out in the middle of nowhere without other power teams nearby. I spent my morning helping a customer in North Carolina and she went on and on about all the great basketball in that state.
We are Kansas basketball… and I see us as ambassadors of the game. Seems kind of low that we intentionally don’t help an instate program build up. I know I just want to watch quality basketball and I hope WSU builds their program because it gives me one more place to see good ball. I wish KSU would improve, too. And if they beat us now and then it just adds more excitement to the following games.
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@drgnslayr They are welcome to come play us in Lawrence. But they won’t.
As Farmer put it, there has to be two to tango and nobody is on the dance floor.
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We do shared game series with many schools lower than WSU. Playing in Wichita now and then can only help our recruiting visibility there, too. Cough cough… Perry Ellis!
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
We do shared game series with many schools lower than WSU. Playing in Wichita now and then can only help our recruiting visibility there, too. Cough cough… Perry Ellis!
I disagree with the entirety of this post.
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:
We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn’t take a buy game and there’s no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.
I focus more on the Xs and Os than counting beans. But I bet we give up a large amount of revenue currently lost on t-shrts and coffee mugs. And more than anything, it gives us another big game every year to put on a major sports television outlet. I know I tend to watch the UK/Louisville game every year regardless if one team is having a bad year. It seems like we are better off if we help programs in our geographic region. It gets pretty lonely being out in the middle of nowhere without other power teams nearby. I spent my morning helping a customer in North Carolina and she went on and on about all the great basketball in that state.
We are Kansas basketball… and I see us as ambassadors of the game. Seems kind of low that we intentionally don’t help an instate program build up. I know I just want to watch quality basketball and I hope WSU builds their program because it gives me one more place to see good ball. I wish KSU would improve, too. And if they beat us now and then it just adds more excitement to the following games.
WSU would not be a big game. Would be like if UNC played Wilmington, which ended up on Flo Hoops. I live in the NC research triangle and you never hear anything about teams outside the ACC. The regional UNC’s just don’t register even though Roy plays home and homes with them on occasion.
KU can already get who they want most of the time in Kansas. There just aren’t that many good players most years.
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What do you disagree with? Just look at our current schedule. Stanford? Really? How big is that gate? Travel expenses? When was the last time we recruited a player in that area? Never, maybe?
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Come on, Wilmington? When was there last Final Four appearance?
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WSU is a great basketball culture with tradition, too. Is it Kansas? Heck no. But if we have this game every year we help them build their program because Marsha hasn’t done well the past couple of years. I’d like to see them become a constant top team… but I don’t hate the Shocks, like others in here seem to. I respect Marsha’s coaching ability even though he is one weirdo guy. He’s a better coach than Shaka (one trick pony) Smart!
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We have a game today anyone wanna talk about how we beat them Mountaineers a 2nd time?? It’s been a while since we got a fair shake in that gym. Was waiting for @wrwlumpy’s game thread! My day is thrown off not seeing it
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It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
Come on, Wilmington? When was there last Final Four appearance?
Don’t have one, but you brought up North Carolina and all the great basketball. Helps that we’re all in the same conference except the regional UNC’s and HBCU’s. Other than the occasional Roy doing a former assistant a solid home and home we never play each other. Otherwise its all ACC competition and there’s zero chance WSU ever sniffs the Big 12 while we’re in it.
As far as west coast recruiting, Cassius Stanley.
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This topic always gets many of us battling. I hear what you are saying and totally respect your voice in here. Always have.
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
#1 and #2 defenses according to Kenpom.
Will Self try and play 2 bigs to match WVU? Have to win the rebounding war, we already know we are not winning the whistle tonight
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@benshawks08 said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That’s what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he’d likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.
Actually, when I said, “Winning national championships is the only thing, on the court, that will change that for me at this point”, that was referring to me be less enamored with him from a performance perspective. Not that if we won I’d forgive the dishonesty. Not at all.
I know that everyone else’s perspective is more practical when it comes to the college game and the cesspool. As anyone who has read what I’ve posted knows, I’m for the NCAA tightening rules, being very strict, not trying to be other concepts. I support players making money outside of the NCAA, but when the commit to the NCAA, then play by those rules. I think it is the best business model going forward.
Really, with Self, it just boils down to the fact that he’s no longer on a pedestal to me (character wise). He used to be. That’s all. And the truth is, as the other posts indicate, NONE of these guys should be on a pedestal character wise. I just saw Self as being different.
I don’t believe in “the ends justify the means” as an operating concept. It’s actually a horrible way to approach life. But everything isn’t black and white, particularly not CBB.
When I coached young men and women, I operated on strict code of honesty and integrity. I followed rules when others cheated. I tried my best to be a an excellent role model. There were times when I failed. But never once in being honest or acting with integrity.
Those were kids. Obviously a much different deal.
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I agree @FarmerJayhawk, people have been cheating in some capacity in major sports for a century. All the way back to shoeless Joe and Rupp getting busted to the Patriots being busted repeatedly and the signal stealing rocking baseball right now. I’ve always felt that our players probably got a used car or a job for their folks. Mainly because I know people that played college athletics and got stuff even at a smaller scale. I personally don’t believe KU is giving guys the Zion treatment with houses, cars, jobs and bags of cash. Look at the recruiting classes, we ain’t the recruits that the UNCs, Dooks and UKs are getting. More than likely because we ain’t paying what Nike does.
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@BeddieKU23 said in WSU grudge:
@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
#1 and #2 defenses according to Kenpom.
Will Self try and play 2 bigs to match WVU? Have to win the rebounding war, we already know we are not winning the whistle tonight
Last night Espn had us at 1.5 point favorite and now it’s WVU by 2.
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Calling Self a liar and a cheater is a bit extreme unless you are one of those people who always drives at or below the speed limit, etc. etc. and so on.
The game of basketball, and of America it seems, is to play the edges. There’s the saying – if you don’t have a foul, you didn’t play hard enough… People adapt to norms. The norms are ever adjusting… being pushed by those that are more assertive. I’m not saying it is right or wrong. It is what it is.
I guess what I am saying is that I don’t see Self as a liar or a cheater in the context of the environment of college basketball. I might take it a step further to say that such a statement is either naive or calculated to provoke.
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Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.
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@bskeet “Calling Self a liar and a cheater is a bit extreme unless you are one of those people who always drives at or below the speed limit, etc. etc. and so on.”
If you’re driving AT the speed LIMIT, isn’t that what you’re supposed to do? See, there’s a minimum and a maximum that you can LEGALLY drive. Some of us actually do that backwards, hillbilly stuff. I would drive much, much faster but that would compromise my texting/drinking/changing clothes in the car skills.
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@HighEliteMajor Guess that was a misunderstanding of what you were saying on my part. My bad. Totally agree that “NONE of these guys should be on a pedestal character wise” and would take it a step further that we as a society in general should get rid of pedestals (metaphorically obviously, I’m not very tall…) all together. No one’s character is unimpeachable (oops). Also want to point out you were the first one to bring up “black and white” so I wasn’t the first tor bring race into the conversation for once! All fiction, no malice as someone I remember used to say!
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@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:
@COHawk said in WSU grudge:
@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.” I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don’t agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?
It’s been going since college sports was a thing, so it’s just the water we swim in. Phog was dirty, Rupp was dirty, Wooden was all-time dirty. Bear Bryant was dirty. Bobby Bowden was dirty.
So I guess either ignore it or quit caring? I’ve done the latter. I’ve accepted all the top programs (and most aspiring top programs) are dirty and that’s that. Doesn’t really affect my attitude toward KU basketball or college sports more generally. Still plop down every Saturday during football season and watch from noon to PAC-12 after dark.
me too Buddy - - - me too
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@HighEliteMajor You make Bill Self’s case by stating “It would highly energize our fan base.” That fact doesn’t matter because we already have a highly energetic fan base that sells out every game and travels all over the place to watch the Jayhawks play. I was in Maui for the three games there and KU must’ve held 80% of the tickets for each of the three games. I thought surely BYU, who has a campus on Oahu, would snatch up their fair share of tickets… nope. Jayhawk fans muscled their way in and bought them up, got on a plane, and showed up at the games.
Economically, there is no benefit to playing WSU. It’s not going to create more donor funds or get existing donors to give more than they already are.
HCBS is doing such a good job of filling AFH and winning, that until that changes, he’s right in saying that we don’t benefit from playing WSU. If there was some recruiting benefit, maybe, but there just isn’t.
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@BShark said in WSU grudge:
Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.
Thanks Captain Obvious - -lmao
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@nuleafjhawk “I know that I lean towards innocence and naïveté so it’s good…” I’m right there with you.
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@drgnslayr Close ties with the head coach and we needed to even the score.
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@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
If you’re driving AT the speed LIMIT, isn’t that what you’re supposed to do? See, there’s a minimum and a maximum that you can LEGALLY drive. Some of us actually do that backwards, hillbilly stuff. I would drive much, much faster but that would compromise my texting/drinking/changing clothes in the car skills.
Yes it is what we are supposed to do – unless it causes problems with the flow of traffic or is otherwise unsafe.
The driver needs to take into account the environment.
I think this makes for a decent analogy:
If the speed limit is 55 and everyone is driving 65-70 and I drive 47, it would be legal but it would also be a hazard. Likewise, 55 in a 55 zone could be too fast in ice and fog, etc… Some people drive faster than they should… others drive slower… No one gets hurt if we all drive about the same.
Police set up speed traps and pull multiple cars over when they want to make a point that everyone is driving too fast and they want to change the behavior of the community.
That’s analogous to what the NCAA has done with a handful of schools.
They set up a speed trap as a signal to the coaching community to slow down. My problem with it is that they only seemed to snare the adidas schools, which is like a speed trap that only catches German cars.
Anyway…
If I drive 65 in a 55, and get snared in a speed trap with 5 or 6 other cars, I would find it a bit extreme if someone called me a criminal.
and that’s why I wouldn’t call Self a “liar and a cheater” in this situation. He was going 65 like most of the community. He got snared. But the snare was discriminate and selective.
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@bskeet That’s really very well said - i appreciate the thought and effort you put into it.
Having said that, it still gets my hackles up when I’m driving 75 and getting passed like I’m standing still - and getting flipped off and honked at for doing the speed limit. Why should I have to break the law (I’ll get back to that) just because everybody else is doing it? Why don’t they do what’s right and slow down? As far as breaking the law goes - I’m not really St Nuleaf - I don’t like to speed because I can literally watch my gas gauge go down. It’s expensive and inefficient to speed. 75 sucks it down badly enough. The computer on my vehicle says at 75, i average about 30.3 mpg. If i take a back road and can go 60, that number goes up to about 37 mpg. That’s the main reason I don’t have the gas pedal mashed completely to the floor. When I was a young buck, I used to have a 70 Mustang Fastback and I spent a lot of time at 100+ mph. And gas was about 40-60 cents per gallon.
And I was cool. Now I’m cheap.
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So to the complete inapplicability of the analogy. Folks do this stuff all the time. So, why criticize someone for murder or other lawlessness if I go 79 in a 75? Pure foolishness. It’s the argument of the irrational moral equalizers.
Bill Self made the widely public proclamation on the his behalf, on behalf of our program, on behalf of our school – for the entire nation to hear – that was a lie. It’s easy to say he’s dishonest.
The fact that it was so public and made on behalf of our program increases its import to me. And leads to my viewpoint.
On the integrity part, I think that’s much different. I get what many of you have said relating it to other coaches, programs, and the sport. My view is/was based some unrealistic expectations perhaps. I acknowledge that.
But I do expect honesty – or at least not lying. Don’t lie. Just don’t say anything. Don’t lie. It’s a horrible message to all involved and certainly to the players that he’s trying to be a role model for.
Instead, perhaps this statement related to improper benefits: “I have always tried to operate our program the right way. As a program, we do not offer any improper benefits. None of my coaches, nor I, have offered or provided improper benefits. I can assure you of that. The Adidas involvement and the role of shoe companies in general, create a much different dynamic for all schools involved. Obviously we’re dealing with those issues related to our involvement. And I’m sure college basketball as a whole will address many of these issues. We want to operate our program in the right way.”
I’m still believing that “our program” and “coaches” don’t do it. But we know the shoecos do. This simple adjustment avoids blatantly lying.
But Bill Self chose to go a much different route. And that ain’t going 79 in a 75.
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This all rings hollow from a likely Trump supporter and known racist.
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@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
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@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single “misleading” statement, wouldn’t you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?
If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn’t morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.
Or is it actually not that important to your moral code? Is honesty only important sometimes? Is it an expectation or is it not? Why is one more worthy of condemning than the other?
“That’s politics” is a pretty lame excuse for someone who claims to have such upstanding morals and character. And it’s rather inconsistent. Dare I say, hypocritical… It is actually funny to think someone tries to pretend they have the moral conviction to be so upset about one lie and then is 100% lock to vote in a pathological liar into the most powerful position on Earth and they will sleep like a baby that same night.
There is no moral conviction here. It’s virtue signaling at it’s finest. This is like a Vegetarian who owns a slaughterhouse. A doctor who smokes. A quarterback who kneels for injustice but is endorsed by Nike. A Trump being pissed about a Biden getting a job through nepotism. An activist lawyer that’s also being indicted for extortion.
I don’t care which way you lean.
Just don’t pretend to care about honesty and integrity when it is so clear that you are willing to abandon your “values” the second it benefits you.
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@BigBad It sort of reminds me of a time back in the 80s when someone told me she was in Germany when the US bombed Libya in response to Libyan agents murdering the Army sergeant in Berlin. She talked about how ashamed she was to be an American when her German friends asked how we could do so a warlike thing.
I said it would be years before I was willing to listen to moral lessons in international relations from Germans.
The thing is, when someone gets all bent out of shape over one lie told by a coach but is willing to let literally hundreds go by his chosen leader, or waxes forever about the breakdown in family values in minority communities but actively advocates for a serial adulterer and accused sex offender to be the leader of the country, or expresses so much disgust over lack of respect in modern society while knowingly and admittedly trying to offend people with racial and sexual jokes, it really undermines the weight of their opinion.
It is fair to consider blatant hypocrisy when assessing an opinion.
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Well I was gonna answer, but there is little point after those two. I will just say still supporting Trump at this point requires a lot of cognitive dissonance, or at least I would hope so because the alternative is even worse.
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@BShark said in WSU grudge:
Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.
Oh well hell you wanna get technical every frickin school there is - cheats. -If the NCAA really wanted too they could nail EVERY FRICKEN SINGLE SCHOOL for some minor tedious Bullshit rule. - It’s the NCAA for GOD’S sake - tha is just another reason the NCAA life expectancy is coming toa close quickly. - -These schools gonna break away from these idiots -hide and watch.
The NCAA has had a wood for KU for years cause we stood up to these idiots - - fight for what we thought was right with appeals and suck for kids instead of just bending over and grabbing the ankles and saying - - -YES PLEASE. i’m so sick and tired of the NCAA’S bullshit and far from alone on how people feel. - Their time is limited - -you think not ? - - -Watch
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@BeddieKU23 said in WSU grudge:
@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
#1 and #2 defenses according to Kenpom.
Will Self try and play 2 bigs to match WVU? Have to win the rebounding war, we already know we are not winning the whistle tonight
KU’s Kenpom rating is slowly continuing to move upwards. Just passed 2019 Duke. Would have been ranked #2 in 2018, 2017, and 2016. #5 in 2015. #1 in 2014, #3 in 2013.
It’ll be interesting to see where they finish if they win out the rest of the regular season.
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@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:
@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single “misleading” statement, wouldn’t you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?
If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn’t morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.
Again I asked why a political opinion matters the same as an opinion on a basketball coach.
You’re condemning hypocrisy while participating in the same thing just the opposite. You’re condemning a “lying president” but poo-pooing a lying basketball coach.
I’ll give you this…Politics and college basketball are pretty damn similar, they both reek of corruption! I don’t believe anyone who participates in either is clean.
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
you wasn’t far off my friend. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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For those who remember their school days in debate… “truth” is defined as an absolute. Absolute is only applicable to mathematics.
We are all “liars.” We all have told “untruths” in our lives because, basically, every statement we make lacks absolute truth. Language isn’t built to accommodate absolute anything.
I’m making this extreme point because our tone is what counts here. Yes… Self, like all of us, has used language. Language doesn’t deal with absolute truths. Therefore, Self has communicated “untruths.” Do we take this to the extent of calling him a liar? This is about tone and how aggressively we want to label Self in the negative.
I’m on board for agreeing that college basketball is loaded with all kinds of untruth… exaggerations, misinformation, compromise, etc etc etc. Self is a part of the D1 system. He has chosen basketball coaching as his career. Did he do it because he desired to jump into a profession swimming in untruth? I don’t think so. I think he loves basketball. He loves coaching basketball. And he loves guiding young people in the game of basketball and the game of life. That is the “tone” I apply to this thread.
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Back to the speeding analogy, and a little injection of levity in this suddenly politically charged sports thread…
Regardless of actual speed, why is it that on the highway everybody going slower than me is a dumbass and everybody going faster than me is a crazy mthrfckr?
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@drgnslayr Oh sure. Bring logic and sense to the conversation. Thanks a lot.
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@StLJhawk LOL - Truth!
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@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:
@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single “misleading” statement, wouldn’t you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?
If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn’t morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.
Again I asked why a political opinion matters the same as an opinion on a basketball coach.
You’re condemning hypocrisy while participating in the same thing just the opposite. You’re condemning a “lying president” but poo-pooing a lying basketball coach.
I’ll give you this…Politics and college basketball are pretty damn similar, they both reek of corruption! I don’t believe anyone who participates in either is clean.
I’m condemning someone feeling so righteous they are acting as if they are Jesus while throwing the first stone.
I’m very well aware that my expectations on honesty and integrity are fluid and dependent on certain conditions.
The difference is I’m not lecturing people on here about their values. I don’t sit on a high horse. I just don’t appreciate someone thinking they have moral convictions so much greater than others here when that’s so obviously not true.
And fwiw, I’d rather be the hypocrite who expects the leader of the free world to have more honesty and integrity than than a basketball coach for my favorite hobby than vice versa…
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WSU is crying again, this time about mean ole KSU.
https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article240416271.html
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@BShark said in WSU grudge:
WSU is crying again, this time about mean ole KSU.
https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article240416271.html
Dam why the hell don’t they just give it a rest man.
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@jayballer73 What else you going to do when you have a crappy team in a crappy town? (sorry to my Wichita Jayhawks out there…)
They have to whine about something.
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@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
@jayballer73 What else you going to do when you have a crappy team in a crappy town? (sorry to my Wichita Jayhawks out there…)
They have to whine about something.
I actually love the City of Wichita. - -Lived there and on the out skirts for like 20 years. Then is there bitching even though it is K- State, they talk about how K-State was wanting to play them when WSU was in a rebuilding year , but now they wanna biotch when K-State obviously is in some rebuilding
