WSU grudge
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@HighEliteMajor Interesting. I’m not Bill Self’s cousin, next door neighbor or best friend. I’ve never met him - closest I’ve ever been is the couple of hundred feet from the bench while at a basketball game.
BUT - I’ve always considered him to be one of the more honest guys in coaching. About you and I - is there any chance that we both see & hear things in a different light? How do you know with such certainty that he (and his staff) know about the darker side of things? Maybe they just happen. Without his knowledge or consent. It’s a distinct possibility. I’ve been at my company 23 years. It’s a small company - about 30 employees. Stuff goes on around here ALL THE TIME that I don’t know about until after the fact. And while I’m not the Head Coach, I’ve been here longer than any other employee and am included in much of the decision making around here.
I look at guys like (yep, going to name names…) Pitino, G.Marshall, Calipari - and I immediately think " They’re pond scum ". I know that’s an excellent attitude for someone who professes to be a Christian, but I’m a Christian human and i sometimes get an attitude.
Could it be that there’s just something about Self’s persona that doesn’t vibe right with you? Maybe he’s not dishonest. Maybe you just don’t like the way he looks.
Anyway, there’s about a 100% chance that I’m not going to change your mind, It just struck me funny as I think completely the opposite way about him.
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@nuleafjhawk Understood. I think that has been a perception/belief of many. Maybe it’s in comparison to others – your “pond scum” reference. That’s not the bar I’m referring to. And my opinion can change on this perhaps with time. But when I read the quote I cited, there is just no reconciling that with reality. The public statement was a big one. A really big one, for the entire nation to hear.
For folks to defend his honesty, they would have to state that his public quote was truthful. I have not heard anyone suggest that his statement was truthful. I’m not going to slobber over, or admire, a public liar – one that does so as the head coach of my alma mater.
I was always a big defender of Bill Self’s integrity. I mentioned that when the FBI stuff came out that they were targeting the “pristine” coach and prosecutors love knocking guys like that down. Maybe I’m too emotional on this. But I feel as if I was deceived.
I truly did not believe that our program engaged in this stuff. I believed that Bill Self was above that. I believed that he did it the right way. I believed in Bill Self’s integrity. Then I learned the truth. I was admittedly naïve. Embarrassingly so. I mentioned that at the time. I then very much wanted Self to admit there were mistakes, be contrite, and actively work to change what was apparent. He took the opposite approach in his comments and issued a dishonest and deceptive public statement. And we got hit with a severe NOA. It’s his program.
So, if Bill Self didn’t know … just covered his eyes and ears and hummed the star spangled banner while all this was going on … TJ Gassnola texts and all … that he really didn’t know that Adidas was supplying cash … you know … when everyone else does … and he knows everyone else does it … doesn’t that define lack of institutional control? It would seem to appear.
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@HighEliteMajor If that’s the way you feel, I totally respect that. Honestly, I’m not as informed about this (and many other things) as I should be. I tend to favor re-runs of “The Beverly Hillbillies” and “You Bet Your Life” (big Groucho fan here) over the news. I understand completely having faith and trust in someone and being (or feeling) betrayed. Since I haven’t followed things too intently, my impression is that since he’s still got a high profile job that he must be OK (?). Don’t people lose their jobs for lying any more? I also publicly stated that if Self was indicted/convicted - whatever the legal term is of any wrong doing I would write him off completely. Has that happened? (I’m not being sarcastic, just asking).
I would tend to think that many impartial observers would study him and think that he’s a hard working, decent, blue collar kind of guy (that makes several million bucks per year - lol). But if you’re right and he is indeed a liar - i will be done with him as well.
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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF.
Did someone put a friggen Bat Signal somewhere in this thread. Only way to explain all of this virtue signaling going on…
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@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF.
Did someone put a friggen Bat Signal somewhere in this thread. Only way to explain all of this virtue signaling going on…
Lol, was just about to say something like that. If folks expect choir boys as elite head coaches I can only channel my southern, “bless your heart.”
To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.”
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@drgnslayr Maybe we could get WSU as an exhibition; they could take the place of Fort Hays or Emporia or Pitt State!!!
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
I like seeing us play meaningful games where there is some kind of rivalry, any kind of rivalry.
Playing interstate “rivals” like Emporia State is a big joke and waste of time. Since when are we in charge of helping them out? What do we get out of those fluff games?
I like to see us play WSU because they give us a great taste of that “mid major” style game… something we have had problems with in March and embarrassed many times, sent packing.
I also like playing in the Champions Classic and anything where we play typical Top 5 teams, but this year, playing Duke in the first game of the year was plain stupid and meaningless.
Actually… we get a lot less out of playing Mizzou every year than if we played the Shocks because the Shocks tend to be ranked higher and they present us with the mid major style.
The argument that WSU isn’t good enough to play us is hogwash. Explain Emporia State.
We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn’t take a buy game and there’s no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.
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@Kcmatt7 I know - it’s crazy in this day and age that ANYONE expects integrity and honesty from leadership. Or anyone else.
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@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.” I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don’t agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?
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@COHawk said in WSU grudge:
@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.” I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don’t agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?
It’s been going since college sports was a thing, so it’s just the water we swim in. Phog was dirty, Rupp was dirty, Wooden was all-time dirty. Bear Bryant was dirty. Bobby Bowden was dirty.
So I guess either ignore it or quit caring? I’ve done the latter. I’ve accepted all the top programs (and most aspiring top programs) are dirty and that’s that. Doesn’t really affect my attitude toward KU basketball or college sports more generally. Still plop down every Saturday during football season and watch from noon to PAC-12 after dark.
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@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 I know - it’s crazy in this day and age that ANYONE expects integrity and honesty from leadership. Or anyone else.
I think integrity and honestly is extremely important. Full disclosure: I really don’t know you that well on this board so my response was mostly to the other person in that conversation just because I know their political leaning…
And to explain further… I just think it’s hysterical that some expect more integrity and honesty from the Head Coach of KU Basketball than, say, the POTUS, Attorney General, Medal of Freedom recipients, Senators, Judges, National Security Advisors, Secretaries of State, or any of our institutions that are supposed to be running this country in general.
The gymnastics that some put themselves through to justify supporting something that is so clearly against their own “morals” is even more hysterical. Knowing someone is going to punch their ballot in November in favor of someone who literally lies more than twice a day, but somehow still feel they can sit on their high horse and criticize Bill Self for saying one lie to protect his own ass in his 16 years at KU. It’s a friggen parody! It is in the same ballpark of irony as Pope Innocent VIII having two bastard children. It is in the ballpark of irony as the first Chinese man who found gun powder and called it the “elixr of immortality.” It is an utter joke.
Honesty and integrity are far more admirable things when they aren’t accompanied by hypocrisy.
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@Kcmatt7 Fair enough. To be honest (since we’re on the subject…) I really enjoy finding out about people on this site. I mean, what makes us tick and not just “Rah Rah, we put the ball in the hoop a lot today”. We’re all different and it’s interesting to me to find out WHY we’re different.
I know that I lean towards innocence and naivete so it’s good to get a little dose of reality periodically.
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The idea that honesty and integrity are mocked by many is sickening.
But given the responses, I guess we’re not putting Self up on a pedestal then, which is a bit of a change. He lies and cheats like the rest of them.
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@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That’s what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he’d likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.
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@HighEliteMajor said in WSU grudge:
But given the responses, I guess we’re not putting Self up on a pedestal then, which is a bit of a change. He lies and cheats like the rest of them.
D1 ball is really about cheating and lying. Just look at recruiting. You are telling one kid how great it would be for him to come to your program while you continue to recruit players right over him.
As fans, the best we can hope for is a coach who can use his words well and limit the harshness of the reality. I’ve always said that a major plus with Self has been his ability to handle his words well.
It is what it is… my mentor in life, my old basketball coach I had going back to the 8th grade told me once that Jesus would make a horrible coach.
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@benshawks08 said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That’s what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he’d likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.
Wonderful point.
Those currently virtue signaling literally just wrote that they wouldn’t care about the cheating as long as they got what they wanted. So it isn’t even about honesty and integrity. It really is just virtue signaling. Thank you for bringing this up.
The only person mocking honesty and integrity is the one saying they don’t care about either virtue, providing they get what they want in return.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:
We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn’t take a buy game and there’s no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.
I focus more on the Xs and Os than counting beans. But I bet we give up a large amount of revenue currently lost on t-shrts and coffee mugs. And more than anything, it gives us another big game every year to put on a major sports television outlet. I know I tend to watch the UK/Louisville game every year regardless if one team is having a bad year. It seems like we are better off if we help programs in our geographic region. It gets pretty lonely being out in the middle of nowhere without other power teams nearby. I spent my morning helping a customer in North Carolina and she went on and on about all the great basketball in that state.
We are Kansas basketball… and I see us as ambassadors of the game. Seems kind of low that we intentionally don’t help an instate program build up. I know I just want to watch quality basketball and I hope WSU builds their program because it gives me one more place to see good ball. I wish KSU would improve, too. And if they beat us now and then it just adds more excitement to the following games.
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@drgnslayr They are welcome to come play us in Lawrence. But they won’t.
As Farmer put it, there has to be two to tango and nobody is on the dance floor.
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We do shared game series with many schools lower than WSU. Playing in Wichita now and then can only help our recruiting visibility there, too. Cough cough… Perry Ellis!
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
We do shared game series with many schools lower than WSU. Playing in Wichita now and then can only help our recruiting visibility there, too. Cough cough… Perry Ellis!
I disagree with the entirety of this post.
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:
We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn’t take a buy game and there’s no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.
I focus more on the Xs and Os than counting beans. But I bet we give up a large amount of revenue currently lost on t-shrts and coffee mugs. And more than anything, it gives us another big game every year to put on a major sports television outlet. I know I tend to watch the UK/Louisville game every year regardless if one team is having a bad year. It seems like we are better off if we help programs in our geographic region. It gets pretty lonely being out in the middle of nowhere without other power teams nearby. I spent my morning helping a customer in North Carolina and she went on and on about all the great basketball in that state.
We are Kansas basketball… and I see us as ambassadors of the game. Seems kind of low that we intentionally don’t help an instate program build up. I know I just want to watch quality basketball and I hope WSU builds their program because it gives me one more place to see good ball. I wish KSU would improve, too. And if they beat us now and then it just adds more excitement to the following games.
WSU would not be a big game. Would be like if UNC played Wilmington, which ended up on Flo Hoops. I live in the NC research triangle and you never hear anything about teams outside the ACC. The regional UNC’s just don’t register even though Roy plays home and homes with them on occasion.
KU can already get who they want most of the time in Kansas. There just aren’t that many good players most years.
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What do you disagree with? Just look at our current schedule. Stanford? Really? How big is that gate? Travel expenses? When was the last time we recruited a player in that area? Never, maybe?
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Come on, Wilmington? When was there last Final Four appearance?
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WSU is a great basketball culture with tradition, too. Is it Kansas? Heck no. But if we have this game every year we help them build their program because Marsha hasn’t done well the past couple of years. I’d like to see them become a constant top team… but I don’t hate the Shocks, like others in here seem to. I respect Marsha’s coaching ability even though he is one weirdo guy. He’s a better coach than Shaka (one trick pony) Smart!
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We have a game today anyone wanna talk about how we beat them Mountaineers a 2nd time?? It’s been a while since we got a fair shake in that gym. Was waiting for @wrwlumpy’s game thread! My day is thrown off not seeing it
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It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
Come on, Wilmington? When was there last Final Four appearance?
Don’t have one, but you brought up North Carolina and all the great basketball. Helps that we’re all in the same conference except the regional UNC’s and HBCU’s. Other than the occasional Roy doing a former assistant a solid home and home we never play each other. Otherwise its all ACC competition and there’s zero chance WSU ever sniffs the Big 12 while we’re in it.
As far as west coast recruiting, Cassius Stanley.
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This topic always gets many of us battling. I hear what you are saying and totally respect your voice in here. Always have.
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
#1 and #2 defenses according to Kenpom.
Will Self try and play 2 bigs to match WVU? Have to win the rebounding war, we already know we are not winning the whistle tonight
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@benshawks08 said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That’s what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he’d likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.
Actually, when I said, “Winning national championships is the only thing, on the court, that will change that for me at this point”, that was referring to me be less enamored with him from a performance perspective. Not that if we won I’d forgive the dishonesty. Not at all.
I know that everyone else’s perspective is more practical when it comes to the college game and the cesspool. As anyone who has read what I’ve posted knows, I’m for the NCAA tightening rules, being very strict, not trying to be other concepts. I support players making money outside of the NCAA, but when the commit to the NCAA, then play by those rules. I think it is the best business model going forward.
Really, with Self, it just boils down to the fact that he’s no longer on a pedestal to me (character wise). He used to be. That’s all. And the truth is, as the other posts indicate, NONE of these guys should be on a pedestal character wise. I just saw Self as being different.
I don’t believe in “the ends justify the means” as an operating concept. It’s actually a horrible way to approach life. But everything isn’t black and white, particularly not CBB.
When I coached young men and women, I operated on strict code of honesty and integrity. I followed rules when others cheated. I tried my best to be a an excellent role model. There were times when I failed. But never once in being honest or acting with integrity.
Those were kids. Obviously a much different deal.
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I agree @FarmerJayhawk, people have been cheating in some capacity in major sports for a century. All the way back to shoeless Joe and Rupp getting busted to the Patriots being busted repeatedly and the signal stealing rocking baseball right now. I’ve always felt that our players probably got a used car or a job for their folks. Mainly because I know people that played college athletics and got stuff even at a smaller scale. I personally don’t believe KU is giving guys the Zion treatment with houses, cars, jobs and bags of cash. Look at the recruiting classes, we ain’t the recruits that the UNCs, Dooks and UKs are getting. More than likely because we ain’t paying what Nike does.
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@BeddieKU23 said in WSU grudge:
@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
#1 and #2 defenses according to Kenpom.
Will Self try and play 2 bigs to match WVU? Have to win the rebounding war, we already know we are not winning the whistle tonight
Last night Espn had us at 1.5 point favorite and now it’s WVU by 2.
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Calling Self a liar and a cheater is a bit extreme unless you are one of those people who always drives at or below the speed limit, etc. etc. and so on.
The game of basketball, and of America it seems, is to play the edges. There’s the saying – if you don’t have a foul, you didn’t play hard enough… People adapt to norms. The norms are ever adjusting… being pushed by those that are more assertive. I’m not saying it is right or wrong. It is what it is.
I guess what I am saying is that I don’t see Self as a liar or a cheater in the context of the environment of college basketball. I might take it a step further to say that such a statement is either naive or calculated to provoke.
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Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.
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@bskeet “Calling Self a liar and a cheater is a bit extreme unless you are one of those people who always drives at or below the speed limit, etc. etc. and so on.”
If you’re driving AT the speed LIMIT, isn’t that what you’re supposed to do? See, there’s a minimum and a maximum that you can LEGALLY drive. Some of us actually do that backwards, hillbilly stuff. I would drive much, much faster but that would compromise my texting/drinking/changing clothes in the car skills.
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@HighEliteMajor Guess that was a misunderstanding of what you were saying on my part. My bad. Totally agree that “NONE of these guys should be on a pedestal character wise” and would take it a step further that we as a society in general should get rid of pedestals (metaphorically obviously, I’m not very tall…) all together. No one’s character is unimpeachable (oops). Also want to point out you were the first one to bring up “black and white” so I wasn’t the first tor bring race into the conversation for once! All fiction, no malice as someone I remember used to say!
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@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:
@COHawk said in WSU grudge:
@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.” I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don’t agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?
It’s been going since college sports was a thing, so it’s just the water we swim in. Phog was dirty, Rupp was dirty, Wooden was all-time dirty. Bear Bryant was dirty. Bobby Bowden was dirty.
So I guess either ignore it or quit caring? I’ve done the latter. I’ve accepted all the top programs (and most aspiring top programs) are dirty and that’s that. Doesn’t really affect my attitude toward KU basketball or college sports more generally. Still plop down every Saturday during football season and watch from noon to PAC-12 after dark.
me too Buddy - - - me too
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@HighEliteMajor You make Bill Self’s case by stating “It would highly energize our fan base.” That fact doesn’t matter because we already have a highly energetic fan base that sells out every game and travels all over the place to watch the Jayhawks play. I was in Maui for the three games there and KU must’ve held 80% of the tickets for each of the three games. I thought surely BYU, who has a campus on Oahu, would snatch up their fair share of tickets… nope. Jayhawk fans muscled their way in and bought them up, got on a plane, and showed up at the games.
Economically, there is no benefit to playing WSU. It’s not going to create more donor funds or get existing donors to give more than they already are.
HCBS is doing such a good job of filling AFH and winning, that until that changes, he’s right in saying that we don’t benefit from playing WSU. If there was some recruiting benefit, maybe, but there just isn’t.
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@BShark said in WSU grudge:
Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.
Thanks Captain Obvious - -lmao
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@nuleafjhawk “I know that I lean towards innocence and naïveté so it’s good…” I’m right there with you.
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@drgnslayr Close ties with the head coach and we needed to even the score.
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@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
If you’re driving AT the speed LIMIT, isn’t that what you’re supposed to do? See, there’s a minimum and a maximum that you can LEGALLY drive. Some of us actually do that backwards, hillbilly stuff. I would drive much, much faster but that would compromise my texting/drinking/changing clothes in the car skills.
Yes it is what we are supposed to do – unless it causes problems with the flow of traffic or is otherwise unsafe.
The driver needs to take into account the environment.
I think this makes for a decent analogy:
If the speed limit is 55 and everyone is driving 65-70 and I drive 47, it would be legal but it would also be a hazard. Likewise, 55 in a 55 zone could be too fast in ice and fog, etc… Some people drive faster than they should… others drive slower… No one gets hurt if we all drive about the same.
Police set up speed traps and pull multiple cars over when they want to make a point that everyone is driving too fast and they want to change the behavior of the community.
That’s analogous to what the NCAA has done with a handful of schools.
They set up a speed trap as a signal to the coaching community to slow down. My problem with it is that they only seemed to snare the adidas schools, which is like a speed trap that only catches German cars.
Anyway…
If I drive 65 in a 55, and get snared in a speed trap with 5 or 6 other cars, I would find it a bit extreme if someone called me a criminal.
and that’s why I wouldn’t call Self a “liar and a cheater” in this situation. He was going 65 like most of the community. He got snared. But the snare was discriminate and selective.
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@bskeet That’s really very well said - i appreciate the thought and effort you put into it.
Having said that, it still gets my hackles up when I’m driving 75 and getting passed like I’m standing still - and getting flipped off and honked at for doing the speed limit. Why should I have to break the law (I’ll get back to that) just because everybody else is doing it? Why don’t they do what’s right and slow down? As far as breaking the law goes - I’m not really St Nuleaf - I don’t like to speed because I can literally watch my gas gauge go down. It’s expensive and inefficient to speed. 75 sucks it down badly enough. The computer on my vehicle says at 75, i average about 30.3 mpg. If i take a back road and can go 60, that number goes up to about 37 mpg. That’s the main reason I don’t have the gas pedal mashed completely to the floor. When I was a young buck, I used to have a 70 Mustang Fastback and I spent a lot of time at 100+ mph. And gas was about 40-60 cents per gallon.
And I was cool. Now I’m cheap.
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So to the complete inapplicability of the analogy. Folks do this stuff all the time. So, why criticize someone for murder or other lawlessness if I go 79 in a 75? Pure foolishness. It’s the argument of the irrational moral equalizers.
Bill Self made the widely public proclamation on the his behalf, on behalf of our program, on behalf of our school – for the entire nation to hear – that was a lie. It’s easy to say he’s dishonest.
The fact that it was so public and made on behalf of our program increases its import to me. And leads to my viewpoint.
On the integrity part, I think that’s much different. I get what many of you have said relating it to other coaches, programs, and the sport. My view is/was based some unrealistic expectations perhaps. I acknowledge that.
But I do expect honesty – or at least not lying. Don’t lie. Just don’t say anything. Don’t lie. It’s a horrible message to all involved and certainly to the players that he’s trying to be a role model for.
Instead, perhaps this statement related to improper benefits: “I have always tried to operate our program the right way. As a program, we do not offer any improper benefits. None of my coaches, nor I, have offered or provided improper benefits. I can assure you of that. The Adidas involvement and the role of shoe companies in general, create a much different dynamic for all schools involved. Obviously we’re dealing with those issues related to our involvement. And I’m sure college basketball as a whole will address many of these issues. We want to operate our program in the right way.”
I’m still believing that “our program” and “coaches” don’t do it. But we know the shoecos do. This simple adjustment avoids blatantly lying.
But Bill Self chose to go a much different route. And that ain’t going 79 in a 75.
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This all rings hollow from a likely Trump supporter and known racist.
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@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
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@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single “misleading” statement, wouldn’t you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?
If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn’t morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.
Or is it actually not that important to your moral code? Is honesty only important sometimes? Is it an expectation or is it not? Why is one more worthy of condemning than the other?
“That’s politics” is a pretty lame excuse for someone who claims to have such upstanding morals and character. And it’s rather inconsistent. Dare I say, hypocritical… It is actually funny to think someone tries to pretend they have the moral conviction to be so upset about one lie and then is 100% lock to vote in a pathological liar into the most powerful position on Earth and they will sleep like a baby that same night.
There is no moral conviction here. It’s virtue signaling at it’s finest. This is like a Vegetarian who owns a slaughterhouse. A doctor who smokes. A quarterback who kneels for injustice but is endorsed by Nike. A Trump being pissed about a Biden getting a job through nepotism. An activist lawyer that’s also being indicted for extortion.
I don’t care which way you lean.
Just don’t pretend to care about honesty and integrity when it is so clear that you are willing to abandon your “values” the second it benefits you.
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@BigBad It sort of reminds me of a time back in the 80s when someone told me she was in Germany when the US bombed Libya in response to Libyan agents murdering the Army sergeant in Berlin. She talked about how ashamed she was to be an American when her German friends asked how we could do so a warlike thing.
I said it would be years before I was willing to listen to moral lessons in international relations from Germans.
The thing is, when someone gets all bent out of shape over one lie told by a coach but is willing to let literally hundreds go by his chosen leader, or waxes forever about the breakdown in family values in minority communities but actively advocates for a serial adulterer and accused sex offender to be the leader of the country, or expresses so much disgust over lack of respect in modern society while knowingly and admittedly trying to offend people with racial and sexual jokes, it really undermines the weight of their opinion.
It is fair to consider blatant hypocrisy when assessing an opinion.
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Well I was gonna answer, but there is little point after those two. I will just say still supporting Trump at this point requires a lot of cognitive dissonance, or at least I would hope so because the alternative is even worse.
