WSU grudge
-
Calling Self a liar and a cheater is a bit extreme unless you are one of those people who always drives at or below the speed limit, etc. etc. and so on.
The game of basketball, and of America it seems, is to play the edges. There’s the saying – if you don’t have a foul, you didn’t play hard enough… People adapt to norms. The norms are ever adjusting… being pushed by those that are more assertive. I’m not saying it is right or wrong. It is what it is.
I guess what I am saying is that I don’t see Self as a liar or a cheater in the context of the environment of college basketball. I might take it a step further to say that such a statement is either naive or calculated to provoke.
-
Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.
-
@bskeet “Calling Self a liar and a cheater is a bit extreme unless you are one of those people who always drives at or below the speed limit, etc. etc. and so on.”
If you’re driving AT the speed LIMIT, isn’t that what you’re supposed to do? See, there’s a minimum and a maximum that you can LEGALLY drive. Some of us actually do that backwards, hillbilly stuff. I would drive much, much faster but that would compromise my texting/drinking/changing clothes in the car skills.
-
@HighEliteMajor Guess that was a misunderstanding of what you were saying on my part. My bad. Totally agree that “NONE of these guys should be on a pedestal character wise” and would take it a step further that we as a society in general should get rid of pedestals (metaphorically obviously, I’m not very tall…) all together. No one’s character is unimpeachable (oops). Also want to point out you were the first one to bring up “black and white” so I wasn’t the first tor bring race into the conversation for once! All fiction, no malice as someone I remember used to say!
-
@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:
@COHawk said in WSU grudge:
@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.” I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don’t agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?
It’s been going since college sports was a thing, so it’s just the water we swim in. Phog was dirty, Rupp was dirty, Wooden was all-time dirty. Bear Bryant was dirty. Bobby Bowden was dirty.
So I guess either ignore it or quit caring? I’ve done the latter. I’ve accepted all the top programs (and most aspiring top programs) are dirty and that’s that. Doesn’t really affect my attitude toward KU basketball or college sports more generally. Still plop down every Saturday during football season and watch from noon to PAC-12 after dark.
me too Buddy - - - me too
-
@HighEliteMajor You make Bill Self’s case by stating “It would highly energize our fan base.” That fact doesn’t matter because we already have a highly energetic fan base that sells out every game and travels all over the place to watch the Jayhawks play. I was in Maui for the three games there and KU must’ve held 80% of the tickets for each of the three games. I thought surely BYU, who has a campus on Oahu, would snatch up their fair share of tickets… nope. Jayhawk fans muscled their way in and bought them up, got on a plane, and showed up at the games.
Economically, there is no benefit to playing WSU. It’s not going to create more donor funds or get existing donors to give more than they already are.
HCBS is doing such a good job of filling AFH and winning, that until that changes, he’s right in saying that we don’t benefit from playing WSU. If there was some recruiting benefit, maybe, but there just isn’t.
-
@BShark said in WSU grudge:
Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.
Thanks Captain Obvious - -lmao
-
@nuleafjhawk “I know that I lean towards innocence and naïveté so it’s good…” I’m right there with you.
-
@drgnslayr Close ties with the head coach and we needed to even the score.
-
@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
If you’re driving AT the speed LIMIT, isn’t that what you’re supposed to do? See, there’s a minimum and a maximum that you can LEGALLY drive. Some of us actually do that backwards, hillbilly stuff. I would drive much, much faster but that would compromise my texting/drinking/changing clothes in the car skills.
Yes it is what we are supposed to do – unless it causes problems with the flow of traffic or is otherwise unsafe.
The driver needs to take into account the environment.
I think this makes for a decent analogy:
If the speed limit is 55 and everyone is driving 65-70 and I drive 47, it would be legal but it would also be a hazard. Likewise, 55 in a 55 zone could be too fast in ice and fog, etc… Some people drive faster than they should… others drive slower… No one gets hurt if we all drive about the same.
Police set up speed traps and pull multiple cars over when they want to make a point that everyone is driving too fast and they want to change the behavior of the community.
That’s analogous to what the NCAA has done with a handful of schools.
They set up a speed trap as a signal to the coaching community to slow down. My problem with it is that they only seemed to snare the adidas schools, which is like a speed trap that only catches German cars.
Anyway…
If I drive 65 in a 55, and get snared in a speed trap with 5 or 6 other cars, I would find it a bit extreme if someone called me a criminal.
and that’s why I wouldn’t call Self a “liar and a cheater” in this situation. He was going 65 like most of the community. He got snared. But the snare was discriminate and selective.
-
@bskeet That’s really very well said - i appreciate the thought and effort you put into it.
Having said that, it still gets my hackles up when I’m driving 75 and getting passed like I’m standing still - and getting flipped off and honked at for doing the speed limit. Why should I have to break the law (I’ll get back to that) just because everybody else is doing it? Why don’t they do what’s right and slow down? As far as breaking the law goes - I’m not really St Nuleaf - I don’t like to speed because I can literally watch my gas gauge go down. It’s expensive and inefficient to speed. 75 sucks it down badly enough. The computer on my vehicle says at 75, i average about 30.3 mpg. If i take a back road and can go 60, that number goes up to about 37 mpg. That’s the main reason I don’t have the gas pedal mashed completely to the floor. When I was a young buck, I used to have a 70 Mustang Fastback and I spent a lot of time at 100+ mph. And gas was about 40-60 cents per gallon.
And I was cool. Now I’m cheap.
-
So to the complete inapplicability of the analogy. Folks do this stuff all the time. So, why criticize someone for murder or other lawlessness if I go 79 in a 75? Pure foolishness. It’s the argument of the irrational moral equalizers.
Bill Self made the widely public proclamation on the his behalf, on behalf of our program, on behalf of our school – for the entire nation to hear – that was a lie. It’s easy to say he’s dishonest.
The fact that it was so public and made on behalf of our program increases its import to me. And leads to my viewpoint.
On the integrity part, I think that’s much different. I get what many of you have said relating it to other coaches, programs, and the sport. My view is/was based some unrealistic expectations perhaps. I acknowledge that.
But I do expect honesty – or at least not lying. Don’t lie. Just don’t say anything. Don’t lie. It’s a horrible message to all involved and certainly to the players that he’s trying to be a role model for.
Instead, perhaps this statement related to improper benefits: “I have always tried to operate our program the right way. As a program, we do not offer any improper benefits. None of my coaches, nor I, have offered or provided improper benefits. I can assure you of that. The Adidas involvement and the role of shoe companies in general, create a much different dynamic for all schools involved. Obviously we’re dealing with those issues related to our involvement. And I’m sure college basketball as a whole will address many of these issues. We want to operate our program in the right way.”
I’m still believing that “our program” and “coaches” don’t do it. But we know the shoecos do. This simple adjustment avoids blatantly lying.
But Bill Self chose to go a much different route. And that ain’t going 79 in a 75.
-
This all rings hollow from a likely Trump supporter and known racist.
-
@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
-
@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single “misleading” statement, wouldn’t you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?
If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn’t morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.
Or is it actually not that important to your moral code? Is honesty only important sometimes? Is it an expectation or is it not? Why is one more worthy of condemning than the other?
“That’s politics” is a pretty lame excuse for someone who claims to have such upstanding morals and character. And it’s rather inconsistent. Dare I say, hypocritical… It is actually funny to think someone tries to pretend they have the moral conviction to be so upset about one lie and then is 100% lock to vote in a pathological liar into the most powerful position on Earth and they will sleep like a baby that same night.
There is no moral conviction here. It’s virtue signaling at it’s finest. This is like a Vegetarian who owns a slaughterhouse. A doctor who smokes. A quarterback who kneels for injustice but is endorsed by Nike. A Trump being pissed about a Biden getting a job through nepotism. An activist lawyer that’s also being indicted for extortion.
I don’t care which way you lean.
Just don’t pretend to care about honesty and integrity when it is so clear that you are willing to abandon your “values” the second it benefits you.
-
@BigBad It sort of reminds me of a time back in the 80s when someone told me she was in Germany when the US bombed Libya in response to Libyan agents murdering the Army sergeant in Berlin. She talked about how ashamed she was to be an American when her German friends asked how we could do so a warlike thing.
I said it would be years before I was willing to listen to moral lessons in international relations from Germans.
The thing is, when someone gets all bent out of shape over one lie told by a coach but is willing to let literally hundreds go by his chosen leader, or waxes forever about the breakdown in family values in minority communities but actively advocates for a serial adulterer and accused sex offender to be the leader of the country, or expresses so much disgust over lack of respect in modern society while knowingly and admittedly trying to offend people with racial and sexual jokes, it really undermines the weight of their opinion.
It is fair to consider blatant hypocrisy when assessing an opinion.
-
Well I was gonna answer, but there is little point after those two. I will just say still supporting Trump at this point requires a lot of cognitive dissonance, or at least I would hope so because the alternative is even worse.
-
@BShark said in WSU grudge:
Self is a cheater for those that are still stuck in Pleasantville.
Oh well hell you wanna get technical every frickin school there is - cheats. -If the NCAA really wanted too they could nail EVERY FRICKEN SINGLE SCHOOL for some minor tedious Bullshit rule. - It’s the NCAA for GOD’S sake - tha is just another reason the NCAA life expectancy is coming toa close quickly. - -These schools gonna break away from these idiots -hide and watch.
The NCAA has had a wood for KU for years cause we stood up to these idiots - - fight for what we thought was right with appeals and suck for kids instead of just bending over and grabbing the ankles and saying - - -YES PLEASE. i’m so sick and tired of the NCAA’S bullshit and far from alone on how people feel. - Their time is limited - -you think not ? - - -Watch
-
@BeddieKU23 said in WSU grudge:
@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
#1 and #2 defenses according to Kenpom.
Will Self try and play 2 bigs to match WVU? Have to win the rebounding war, we already know we are not winning the whistle tonight
KU’s Kenpom rating is slowly continuing to move upwards. Just passed 2019 Duke. Would have been ranked #2 in 2018, 2017, and 2016. #5 in 2015. #1 in 2014, #3 in 2013.
It’ll be interesting to see where they finish if they win out the rest of the regular season.
-
@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:
@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single “misleading” statement, wouldn’t you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?
If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn’t morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.
Again I asked why a political opinion matters the same as an opinion on a basketball coach.
You’re condemning hypocrisy while participating in the same thing just the opposite. You’re condemning a “lying president” but poo-pooing a lying basketball coach.
I’ll give you this…Politics and college basketball are pretty damn similar, they both reek of corruption! I don’t believe anyone who participates in either is clean.
-
@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
It should be a defensive battle! Wouldn’t surprise me to see a game in the 50s.
you wasn’t far off my friend. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
-
For those who remember their school days in debate… “truth” is defined as an absolute. Absolute is only applicable to mathematics.
We are all “liars.” We all have told “untruths” in our lives because, basically, every statement we make lacks absolute truth. Language isn’t built to accommodate absolute anything.
I’m making this extreme point because our tone is what counts here. Yes… Self, like all of us, has used language. Language doesn’t deal with absolute truths. Therefore, Self has communicated “untruths.” Do we take this to the extent of calling him a liar? This is about tone and how aggressively we want to label Self in the negative.
I’m on board for agreeing that college basketball is loaded with all kinds of untruth… exaggerations, misinformation, compromise, etc etc etc. Self is a part of the D1 system. He has chosen basketball coaching as his career. Did he do it because he desired to jump into a profession swimming in untruth? I don’t think so. I think he loves basketball. He loves coaching basketball. And he loves guiding young people in the game of basketball and the game of life. That is the “tone” I apply to this thread.
-
Back to the speeding analogy, and a little injection of levity in this suddenly politically charged sports thread…
Regardless of actual speed, why is it that on the highway everybody going slower than me is a dumbass and everybody going faster than me is a crazy mthrfckr?
-
@drgnslayr Oh sure. Bring logic and sense to the conversation. Thanks a lot.
-
@StLJhawk LOL - Truth!
-
@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:
@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@BShark What does one’s political leanings have to do with what that person expects from a basketball coach?
If you condemn a basketball coach with this veracity, over one single “misleading” statement, wouldn’t you think that same person would expect the POTUS to also operate with honesty and integrity?
If honesty and integrity are SOOOOOO important to you as a person, than you shouldn’t morally be able to support someone who has lied or mislead the American public 15,000 times in three years.
Again I asked why a political opinion matters the same as an opinion on a basketball coach.
You’re condemning hypocrisy while participating in the same thing just the opposite. You’re condemning a “lying president” but poo-pooing a lying basketball coach.
I’ll give you this…Politics and college basketball are pretty damn similar, they both reek of corruption! I don’t believe anyone who participates in either is clean.
I’m condemning someone feeling so righteous they are acting as if they are Jesus while throwing the first stone.
I’m very well aware that my expectations on honesty and integrity are fluid and dependent on certain conditions.
The difference is I’m not lecturing people on here about their values. I don’t sit on a high horse. I just don’t appreciate someone thinking they have moral convictions so much greater than others here when that’s so obviously not true.
And fwiw, I’d rather be the hypocrite who expects the leader of the free world to have more honesty and integrity than than a basketball coach for my favorite hobby than vice versa…
-
WSU is crying again, this time about mean ole KSU.
https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article240416271.html
-
@BShark said in WSU grudge:
WSU is crying again, this time about mean ole KSU.
https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article240416271.html
Dam why the hell don’t they just give it a rest man.
-
@jayballer73 What else you going to do when you have a crappy team in a crappy town? (sorry to my Wichita Jayhawks out there…)
They have to whine about something.
-
@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
@jayballer73 What else you going to do when you have a crappy team in a crappy town? (sorry to my Wichita Jayhawks out there…)
They have to whine about something.
I actually love the City of Wichita. - -Lived there and on the out skirts for like 20 years. Then is there bitching even though it is K- State, they talk about how K-State was wanting to play them when WSU was in a rebuilding year , but now they wanna biotch when K-State obviously is in some rebuilding
-
@jayballer73 I don’t like Wichita. When I’m there it feels like I’m just driving in a big strip mall.
-
It’s the chain restaurant capital of the US.
-
@nuleafjhawk crappy town?? Well I guess that’s your opinion bud
-
@HawkChamp said in WSU grudge:
@nuleafjhawk crappy town?? Well I guess that’s your opinion bud
I loved Wichita, easy to get around in, and lots to do - -if you can’t find anything to do in Wichita - - - then your just not looking. - -Lived there and the surrounding area in between 13-14 years. te ONLY reason I left was after my divorce moved back here to be closer to other family. - -I don’t have any problem with it.
The only one thing that wasn’t to good was even though I didn’t have any encounters but one thing was you don’t mess with Law enforcement there. - Lots of accounts of Police brutality kind of some shaddy things going on. - Not gospel cause I never had encounter but plenty of accusations.
Wichita has it’s good points - - has it’s bad , just like any other city in the USA.
-
@HawkChamp I guess you didn’t read the part where i already apologized. It was just to emphasize how much i disliked WSU. Didn’t mean anything by it.
-
@nuleafjhawk Any town that would allow Nola Fulston to be in charge of law should be burned to the ground.
-
@bskeet if you need a list of some fine dining spots, let me know. My son and his wife are wined and dined every thurs by dental reps. Also @drgnslayr could probably tell you some good places. I’ve been to some good, off the beaten path authentic Mexican places.
-
@nuleafjhawk the edit function is your friend in this case
-
@dylans ease up there chief. Some of us live there and love it. Don’t understand the vile hatred some of you have for Wichita.
-
@HawkChamp and hutch!
-
@HawkChamp That was edited. It’s fiercely personal and I’d fight anyone who wants to.
-
@dylans hmmm I’m sorry for your anger issues on the city as a whole. Hopefully it gets better for you
-
@HawkChamp Thank you, I’m familiar with the “edit” function. Also with the “Discard” function, as I have used both prolifically trying to respond to you and keep things civil. As far as “vile hatred” goes, you and I have a vastly different idea of what that means. I didn’t say one time that I hated Wichita. It ain’t my favorite place. That doesn’t stop me from going there. In fact, we spent a fair amount of time and money in your fair city this past Saturday. My wife was shopping at Dillard’s (while I was watching the KU game on my phone) and then we spent more money at the At Home Store, or whatever it’s called.
After we shopped in Wichita for a good part of the morning and early afternoon, we headed south. When we came back in the evening, we were going through Wichita on 135 and when we came upon the "canal’ that runs through town we both about threw up from the smell. One of the reasons I don’t like Wichita.
BTW - I live in Salina. Feel free to say whatever you want about it. I probably won’t disagree.
-
@nuleafjhawk I’m glad you know about it!!
-
@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
@HawkChamp I guess you didn’t read the part where i already apologized. It was just to emphasize how much i disliked WSU. Didn’t mean anything by it.
ya even though I really liked the City of Wichita for sure doesn’t mean I have a love fest for Marsha and the gang. - - I remember Eddie and the group - However did kind of like the motto " MTXE " - - Mental Toughness Extra Effort. - -Couldn’t stand his son Randy cocky little shit. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
@HawkChamp said in WSU grudge:
@dylans ease up there chief. Some of us live there and love it. Don’t understand the vile hatred some of you have for Wichita.
It’s Ok, I love Wichita the city it’self - -but I’m sure there is a town /city that everyone has a dis taste for - -for one reason or another. - -Like me there is no way I’d ever in Bigger Cities NY - - LA - - Dallas - refuse to live in those rat race - -another case where everyone is entitled to their own opinions/taste. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
@HawkChamp LOL. OK, I throw in the towel.
I just have a problem with word vomit. Sometimes words just come out of my mouth with no input from my brain. I honestly don’t mean to be rude, I guess it’s just how I’m wired.
Take me with a grain or two of salt please.
-
@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
@HawkChamp Thank you, I’m familiar with the “edit” function. Also with the “Discard” function, as I have used both prolifically trying to respond to you and keep things civil. As far as “vile hatred” goes, you and I have a vastly different idea of what that means. I didn’t say one time that I hated Wichita. It ain’t my favorite place. That doesn’t stop me from going there. In fact, we spent a fair amount of time and money in your fair city this past Saturday. My wife was shopping at Dillard’s (while I was watching the KU game on my phone) and then we spent more money at the At Home Store, or whatever it’s called.
After we shopped in Wichita for a good part of the morning and early afternoon, we headed south. When we came back in the evening, we were going through Wichita on 135 and when we came upon the "canal’ that runs through town we both about threw up from the smell. One of the reasons I don’t like Wichita.
BTW - I live in Salina. Feel free to say whatever you want about it. I probably won’t disagree.
Ah the good old canal route. Can’t say I miss that. My old baseball coach would give me a ride home from practice or games on occasion and always took that route and made us keep the windows down. He enjoyed making me and his son scream about that awful smell!
-
Any time anyone feels like insulting somewhere, just feel free to substitute “South Carolina.”
It is wonderfully cathartic, and no one on the board is likely to take it personally – certainly not me!
