Help-Side Defense issue
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HawkChamp said:
@BShark Bingo!! Only the two’s that he wants to prevent are almost always with a defender guarding them, making them not so easy baskets in the paint. As a player, would I rather shoot a tough two in the paint, or would I rather shoot a wide open three in the corner? I’ll take the open three all day. 3>2
It’s just basic math and 3 point shooting has improved so much from when Self got started.
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BShark said:
… and 3 point shooting has improved so much from when Self got started.
Hehe…tell that to Garrett.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
It is my understanding that he “fool’s gold” comment was taken out of context. All Coach Self was saying is that a teams should not rely primarily on 3 point shooting but have a more inclusive repertoire on offense so, if the 3 is not going in, you have other options; in any case, the comment was related to KU offense and not defense.
I agree with you on this point. Self was certainly talking about offense when he made the comment.
However, I think the comment reflects his overall philosophy to a large degree. Self does not believe you can shoot tons of threes and win consistently. Just look at last year’s national semifinal. Villanova outright blitzed KU from the opening tip, and Self made zero adjustments. He refused to go small. He wouldn’t hedge hard over the top to take away the three. He didn’t extend Doke beyond the paint on Villanova’s bigs. He stuck with his gameplan and watched as Villanova rained fire down on KU.
This is a deep rooted philosophy, not just a flippant quote from Coach Self. Obviously, his strategic belief wins out more often than not (see his record), but if KU wants to win the big ones, that belief has to change with the times.
And don’t get me started on the Grimes situation…
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@JayHawkFanToo Are you kidding me? The Fool’s Gold comment was not taken out of context. You are flat making that up. We lived it. We listened to it. That’s a bunch of revisionist history. It’s completely false. And it’s all done now, and said now, to try to explain away Self’s prior irrational inflexibility. He said it multiple times. In fact, at halftime of the Utah game at Sprint center he berated the team for outside shooting in an interview. December 13, 2014. We proceeded to come out and tried to force it inside, only to blow a 20 point lead and almost lose. That was near the height of the foolishness. That season was a disaster because coach Self continued to try to make Kansas into something they weren’t.
Self actively worked to limit three point shooting. He gyrated. He flopped around on the bench. He pulled players regularly.
We don’t see any of that anymore related to three point shooting. None of it.
And Bill Self admitted that he forced his team to be something it wasn’t. And Self admitted he was wrong.
Many here pointed out this irrationality as it happened. Of course, we hated coach Self, or thought we were better coaches, right?
Now, of course, we see a different coach Self. He changed. We were right, Self was wrong. Dead wrong. He was two or three season’s behind the curve.
Self’s point with the Fool’s Gold comment was never about balance. His point was that reliable offense was close to the hoop. Feed it inside.
Any other claimed explanation is false and again, revisionist history.
After the Texas Tech game in February of 2015, Self’s point was that we couldn’t shoot a high percentage from three point range. This was following a loss at OSU when we shot 10 of 20 from the three. Remember? The three point shot was to blame. It was not reliable offense. These complaints were when we were in a stretch shooting 40+% from three.
Jam it inside, jam it inside. Score close to the basket. That was Self’s mantra.
His mantra as NOT adjusting to the strengths of his team. It as jam it inside.
And as we’ve learned, our team can and did shoot 40+% from three.
Anyone remember Self’'s quotes, and his regrets about his irrationality? How quickly we forget. From December/2015. A year later.
Bill Self - “I do think we need to shoot a higher percentage of threes. I do think we need to play to our strength, which is shooting the basketball.”
Bill Self - “Last year, we kept trying to force it to become something we probably weren’t.”
Self was wrong. Many of us were right.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/3858/monumental-day-from-the-coach-himself
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Kcmatt7 said:
Bill needs a visit from the Mayor again.
Although I don’t recall the Mayor being a particularly defensive minded coach. Certainly helped Self get through the offensive side of the ball barrier.
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@dylans exceptions to every rule or trend. Dok being another
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I agree though, the team is in gel mode and some freshmen adapting to the game. Nothing critical yet, except PERHAPS a defensive philosophy gap in adjusting to the modern approach where there are more and improved 3 point shooters all over the floor.
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Good post @BeddieKU23 Lots of good opinions here.
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Here is the entire original “fool’s gold” comment as reported here. Unlike you, I cite the sources and post the links instead of patting myself on the back and citing my own posts. Posters can form their own opinions and again, unlike you, I don’t claim to be infallible and it is fine if they disagree with me,
Morgantown, W.Va. — Kansas University’s basketball team, which lost its first Big 12 game of the season Tuesday night, 74-63, actually led, 14-9, early in Tuesday’s loss at West Virginia, thanks to some early three-point success.
“It was fool’s gold. We were up 13-9 and hadn’t thrown it inside but once,” KU coach Bill Self said.
“We made three threes, but if you go back and watch the tape, I bet you we had not gotten three 50/50 balls that should have been ours,” the coach continued.
“How many times did Devonté (Graham) have the rebound and (Jevon) Carter come right behind and steal it immediately? It happened to Wayne (Selden, Jr.), Brannen (Greene). They have active hands.
“We talk about them being more dangerous behind than in front of us,” Self added after his team committed 22 turnovers and had the ball stolen 12 times.
Kansas hit 10 of 20 from three-point range in the loss after going 4-for-11 in the first half.
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Bwag said:
AsadZ said:
yeah this is frustrating, coaches need to emphasize this point in practice and tape watching.
Or is this behavior part of a defensive philosophy that is coached from before the 3 point shot proficiency became a defining characteristic of players games and 3 pt > 2pt strategy worked its way into more and more coachds philosophy.
Self was always until last 2-3 years an Inside-Out coach. Makes me wonder that he hasn’t completely adjusted to the new reality in his defensive coaching philosophy and practice. Not a knock, just this kind of thing has happened now for years And we don’t seem to have fully adapted. Obviously, there is always an element of execution vs plan that falls on the players but can’t help but wonder if one thing is drilled over and over, and the other is a once in a while instruction and players fall to form versus remembering instruction on case by case basis. Some teams and coaches seem to be much more oriented to both offensive and defensive mindset and player performance on the 3 line.
Exactly. He’s rather get beat by the 3 than the 2, and he’d rather win with the 2 than the 3. It’s about being a man. In his mind, at least.
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I vote Dedric Lawson for President!
This guy is perhaps not as athletic as we are used to, but the guy is racking up double-doubles. Why?
F O C U S ! The problem we have always suffered from! We’ve always had the talent and the athleticism. And Self is a heck of a coach in so many ways.
But it takes F O C U S to really execute. Nova… Nova had focus. They came and executed. The difference was stark and we had no chance in that game.
Dedric just hangs in there every game. He’s focused on the ball, and where the ball is going.
I wish Dedric would gather the crew and teach them all “Dedric ZEN!” I wonder if he’s spent hours staring at a candle flame.
Doke… man… settle down! Sit with your candle and count slowly to 100, each number with a breath, and do it until the candle burns out.
Devon… he gets it. He’s sharing a candle with Dedric.
Marcus… inhale… inhale… inhale… whewwwwwww… there you go… let it out… keep air out of your lungs for half a minute and then start breathing again.
Quentin… look in a mirror. Focus on those eyes for an hour. Yes… you got the looks! And the charm… But you need to see a ball player now. Keep staring until you see him!
Charlie… stare into the crystal ball… x-axis! That means… dribble… pass… cut… dribble… pass… cut… dribble… pass… cut… move your feet and create space. Wear down opponents and steal points the second they forget to stop running with you.
Vick… I’ve got nothing to say except OUTSTANDING!
KJ… stare down everyone. Your teammates… your opponents… You have some kind of magic no one is on to yet and it will be appearing sometimes this year and you will bring us Ws. You already have!
Mitch… Take your candle into the weight room and sit down with Hudy. Build bulk all through the season. Forget it if it throws your shot off. Focus on bulk. If you can continue to bulk you will become a freak defender and your muscle will earn you plenty of points. Forget finesse.
David Mactruck… Keep your candle a secret. Sneak on the court late night with just your candle flame and go stealth. Let everyone forget you exist and circle March on your calendar for your real “coming out” party.
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Self knows:
“Not defending the arc is probably not a remedy for success playing Wofford,” Self said. “They’ve got some guys who can really shoot it. They’ve got guys … what appears to be maybe a marginal shot or bad shot are great shots for them. Whenever one guy (senior Fletcher Magee) has shot 11 threes a game — he has shot 87 and Lagerald (Vick) has been on fire and shot 47 (making 28 for 59.6 percent) … think about that. We’ve got to do a great job of defending the arc.”
“That shows us a lot,” Self said. “We’re fortunate to have the record we have. Also I think when other guys start seeing the ball go in the hole, it’ll definitely change our team. I’d say the three-point line is a concern both ways.”
Read more here: https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article222580530.html#storylink=cpy
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We’re simply a hodge podge of a few different teams cobbled together. Even so, this team has a strong will to win … they know how to close, which makes them border line elite even if they don’t look very pretty yet.
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@HighEliteMajor 100% Agree, as I have stated for a few years now, Basketball is changing. You need good 3 point shooting to win nowadays. Look at the Stanford game for instance, they shot a ton of threes compared to their loses and it its what kept the game close. It’s the same way you see the spread offense working in the NFL. People maybe against the change and say it’s bad ball but it works.
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@kjayhawks Stanford still is .500.
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kjayhawks said:
@HighEliteMajor 100% Agree, as I have stated for a few years now, Basketball is changing. You need good 3 point shooting to win nowadays. Look at the Stanford game for instance, they shot a ton of threes compared to their loses and it its what kept the game close. It’s the same way you see the spread offense working in the NFL. People maybe against the change and say it’s bad ball but it works.
They (Stanford) shot a lot of 3’s because KU’s defense gave them open looks which when broken down reveals a big issue right now with KU’s defense on hedging/help-side defense. Stanford took what the defense gave them which was wide open shots from practically every spot on the perimeter.
Opponents have shot 66-177 on 3’s so far against KU (37%). KU, in comparison is 47-107 (43.9%) with Vick (59% and 28 makes) being a majority of that. So opponents have made 19 more 3’s and attempted 70 more.
So far it hasn’t led to wins for the opponent and probably a big part of that is KU has a higher margin for error with its depth and talent across the board.
I would bet good money Wofford takes more 3’s and makes more tonight. Some of that is a product of their offense anyway but right now Self and his players look content to let teams T up open shots as long as the end result is a W for KU. Villanova & Arizona St are games that could potentially make Self adjust some things after for conference play and March. This group is a real work in progress
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I expect a much better 3 point defense this evening; I will guess the coaching staff has been working on a game plan that suits the current skills of the team,
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@Crimsonorblue22 You missed the point, Stanford didn’t do that in their losses.
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@BeddieKU23 I think that is defiantly some of the issue for sure. I’m just saying “small ball” is the new norm and has worked pretty darn well, even for us. I think we have trouble guarding the 3 point line with 2 bigs on the floor at the same time. It looked better even with Doke fouled out against Tennessee and if we continue to do so, we will give away some games. Dedric isn’t athletic enough to cover the ground he needs to on the perimeter.
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KU doesn’t have the shooters to put up more threes. Vick and…?
Last year I wanted to see nothing but threes by Vick, Svi, Graham and dunks by Dok. This year the shooting isn’t nearly as good and the offense needs to be more creative. I really think the best offense this team will have is playing good defense and getting runouts. We’ve seen flashes of awesome D, now to get the guys to play that hard on D for an entire game. That’s what has set the ‘08 team above all the others to come since- D.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I expect a much better 3 point defense this evening; I will guess the coaching staff has been working on a game plan that suits the current skills of the team,
Well if Self has been reading this site maybe. We’ll see if they gameplan differently but I’m expecting the same we saw Tuesday. Just have to hope their two gunners are not on tonight
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@JayHawkFanToo Yes, they can still improve on defense playing with 2 bigs. As stated Dedric is slow but its not all on him, some guys aren’t helping enough, some are over helping and the communication isn’t great to this point.
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I believe our guards are defending the 3 exactly the way Self mandates during practices. I say this because it’s been the same defensive scheme on 3s for years: When the ball moves to the right side, our left side guard moves into the paint to rebound, leaving the offensive guard on the left side wide open. The reverse happens when the ball starts out on the left side. Then, when the ball swings around the perimeter and eventually gets to the left corner, our guard in the paint runs like an idiot from the lane to the open corner with his hand up. I’m sure Self expects the guard to move out of the lane when the ball starts to swing, but our guards never seem to make it. I think it’s a rebounding issue as much as having an extra defender in the paint to stop drives. I can still see Frank Mason skying for the rebound on missed 3s from the opposite side. Even when the Cagins and Cardinal players were hitting their 3s, the defense stayed the same. I can’t understand why we don’t put a defender in man coverage on a hot outside shooter. My wife is very tired of me yelling at the flat screen to play man coverage on the hot shooter. Oh well, somehow we are 6-0 despite very bad 3 point defense. But, I don’t expect our defensive scheme to change at all.
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I agree our big’s have been below average in guarding the perimeter so far. We’ll have our hands full when teams have stretch 4’s and 5’s. We’ve already seen a few of those and its been an issue. Dedric and Doke are lazy when it comes to guarding away from the basket. Both would prefer to stand down on the block. Can they change? Not sure that’s realistic but hopefully Self can drill some basic defensive awareness skills into them as the season goes on.
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Grimes can be that other guy but until he snaps out of this funk its a good thing Vick is hitting at near 60%. Dedric hasn’t shot the ball from the perimeter with any success either, same for Charlie. The offense is a major work in progress. Game 1 they looked impressive running stuff and it has deteriorated since
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@BeddieKU23 I really think KJ Lawson is the answer when the opposing big stays on the perimeter.
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@BeddieKU23 -IIRC, Self uses the Christmas break to install a lot of offensive schemes?
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I’m hopeful he’s a solution as well. So far he’s the odd man out of the rotation unless foul trouble/injury etc pops up.
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@JayHawkFanToo Hem’s big claim to fame is suggesting that Bill go to a 4 out, which we did, and made a final four. Because Bill went to the 4 out, this has left HEM chasing ghosts of the past in order to find something wrong with self that he can complain about. i’m sure a Jamari thread will be soon to follow.
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In the years I have been reading here, I have grown convinced that anyone reading this site as their only information source about KU would conclude Self has a losing record, that KU never is better than middle of the pack, and that we are hoping for maybe our second or third victory at best before conference season starts in Jan.
Never saw a more discouraged fanbase for an undefeated team. We really aren’t doing that bad for a team that is understandably struggling a bit to replace three starters and a stuck-in-limbo key sub with freshmen and transfers.
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You are right, last year team had no depth but the starters were solid and could hit the 3; don’t forget that Newman was also a good 3 point shooter and the key player down they stretch.
This version has arguably more talent but different kind of talent and they still has not found the right chemistry. Once Grimes starts playing to his potential and Dotson and More start hitting 3s the team will be much, much better.
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…while playing a tough schedule, #1 Massey, #5 Sagarin, #6 Pomeroy and no other team in the top 50 or even 100 comes close since the toughest schedules, at this time of the season, are usually reserved for minor programs that travel to big programs to take a beating and collect a pay check.
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@JayHawkFanToo Your cited quote shows nothing. In fact, Self has used that phrase many times. And further, he has berated the idea of relying on shooting. That’s the main point – he was disgusted with the idea of relying on shooting. Now, of course, that’s different. And that was different over the past few years when he changed, and he specifically did rely on shooting.
This is not a difference of opinion. When the son rises in the east, it’s not an opinion to suggest it rises in the west. The entire issue with “fool’s gold” and how foolish the comment was, related to playing to our strength. The items Self admitted the next year, that I quoted. Again, Self admitted it. Self admitted that he was misguided in not playing to his strength. He recognized his error. Regardless of the team’s strength, he wanted it pumped inside. That’s foolishness. It’s not foolishness, for example, when your strength is scoring inside and you don’t shoot well from three (kind of like this season). Shooting from outside is not fool’s gold on a team that has that skill as it’s primary offensive strength. Again, Self evolved to an obviously different position. Heck, and don’t forget, he now loves the 4/1.
The issue is not whether a team has to have some sort of balance. Of course. Every team does. In the fool’s gold period we lived in, it was Self’s rigid hostility toward the concept of relying on three point shooting as your primary offensive weapon.
Self changed. Perhaps you can now recognized the obvious (again with Self’s admissions) and dispense with the revisionist history.
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…and I bet you will take credit for last evening’s 3 point defense as well…SMH.
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@JayHawkFanToo I appreciate your moderation.
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I was happy with the defense for the most part last night. Wofford point blank missed a lot of shots they could make so KU can’t take all the credit. But we sure made life difficult for Magee & Hoover last night on almost every trip. Definitely looks like KU practiced and game-planned for their shooting. Kudos to coaches and players for execution
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Grimes had much improved defensive effort and awareness. That seemed to help him gain confidence once he hit a few shots and got some easy baskets. That was a big glimpse of what he’s capable of night in and night out
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3 point shooting offense needs work. Missed a ton of open good looks. Dedric especially has to start making some. He’s getting plenty of room to tee up and they are just not going down. We will have plenty of games where we struggle from deep when Vick isn’t making 7 a night
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BeddieKU23 said:
3 point shooting offense needs work. Missed a ton of open good looks. Dedric especially has to start making some. He’s getting plenty of room to tee up and they are just not going down. We will have plenty of games where we struggle from deep when Vick isn’t making 7 a night
Dedric had one that was all but in too…
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Dedric has never been a good deep shooter. He was around 30% in his 2 years at Memphis. Other than Vick, none of these players have a reputation for being able to make 3’s and even Vick has always been a very streaky shooter and a consistent guy. When Vick isn’t making 3’s for several games in a row, it’ll happen at some point this year, KU is going to have to get the ball into the paint and muscle ball it to the basket and live at the FT line.
If I’m an opposing coach, I pack the paint and only worry about Vick on the perimeter. I really wouldn’t be worried about anyone else hurting me with perimeter shooting at this point and could live with myself is a 30% shooter has a hot night.
