Help-Side Defense issue
-
kjayhawks said:
@HighEliteMajor 100% Agree, as I have stated for a few years now, Basketball is changing. You need good 3 point shooting to win nowadays. Look at the Stanford game for instance, they shot a ton of threes compared to their loses and it its what kept the game close. It’s the same way you see the spread offense working in the NFL. People maybe against the change and say it’s bad ball but it works.
They (Stanford) shot a lot of 3’s because KU’s defense gave them open looks which when broken down reveals a big issue right now with KU’s defense on hedging/help-side defense. Stanford took what the defense gave them which was wide open shots from practically every spot on the perimeter.
Opponents have shot 66-177 on 3’s so far against KU (37%). KU, in comparison is 47-107 (43.9%) with Vick (59% and 28 makes) being a majority of that. So opponents have made 19 more 3’s and attempted 70 more.
So far it hasn’t led to wins for the opponent and probably a big part of that is KU has a higher margin for error with its depth and talent across the board.
I would bet good money Wofford takes more 3’s and makes more tonight. Some of that is a product of their offense anyway but right now Self and his players look content to let teams T up open shots as long as the end result is a W for KU. Villanova & Arizona St are games that could potentially make Self adjust some things after for conference play and March. This group is a real work in progress
-
I expect a much better 3 point defense this evening; I will guess the coaching staff has been working on a game plan that suits the current skills of the team,
-
@Crimsonorblue22 You missed the point, Stanford didn’t do that in their losses.
-
@BeddieKU23 I think that is defiantly some of the issue for sure. I’m just saying “small ball” is the new norm and has worked pretty darn well, even for us. I think we have trouble guarding the 3 point line with 2 bigs on the floor at the same time. It looked better even with Doke fouled out against Tennessee and if we continue to do so, we will give away some games. Dedric isn’t athletic enough to cover the ground he needs to on the perimeter.
-
KU doesn’t have the shooters to put up more threes. Vick and…?
Last year I wanted to see nothing but threes by Vick, Svi, Graham and dunks by Dok. This year the shooting isn’t nearly as good and the offense needs to be more creative. I really think the best offense this team will have is playing good defense and getting runouts. We’ve seen flashes of awesome D, now to get the guys to play that hard on D for an entire game. That’s what has set the ‘08 team above all the others to come since- D.
-
JayHawkFanToo said:
I expect a much better 3 point defense this evening; I will guess the coaching staff has been working on a game plan that suits the current skills of the team,
Well if Self has been reading this site maybe. We’ll see if they gameplan differently but I’m expecting the same we saw Tuesday. Just have to hope their two gunners are not on tonight
-
@JayHawkFanToo Yes, they can still improve on defense playing with 2 bigs. As stated Dedric is slow but its not all on him, some guys aren’t helping enough, some are over helping and the communication isn’t great to this point.
-
I believe our guards are defending the 3 exactly the way Self mandates during practices. I say this because it’s been the same defensive scheme on 3s for years: When the ball moves to the right side, our left side guard moves into the paint to rebound, leaving the offensive guard on the left side wide open. The reverse happens when the ball starts out on the left side. Then, when the ball swings around the perimeter and eventually gets to the left corner, our guard in the paint runs like an idiot from the lane to the open corner with his hand up. I’m sure Self expects the guard to move out of the lane when the ball starts to swing, but our guards never seem to make it. I think it’s a rebounding issue as much as having an extra defender in the paint to stop drives. I can still see Frank Mason skying for the rebound on missed 3s from the opposite side. Even when the Cagins and Cardinal players were hitting their 3s, the defense stayed the same. I can’t understand why we don’t put a defender in man coverage on a hot outside shooter. My wife is very tired of me yelling at the flat screen to play man coverage on the hot shooter. Oh well, somehow we are 6-0 despite very bad 3 point defense. But, I don’t expect our defensive scheme to change at all.
-
I agree our big’s have been below average in guarding the perimeter so far. We’ll have our hands full when teams have stretch 4’s and 5’s. We’ve already seen a few of those and its been an issue. Dedric and Doke are lazy when it comes to guarding away from the basket. Both would prefer to stand down on the block. Can they change? Not sure that’s realistic but hopefully Self can drill some basic defensive awareness skills into them as the season goes on.
-
Grimes can be that other guy but until he snaps out of this funk its a good thing Vick is hitting at near 60%. Dedric hasn’t shot the ball from the perimeter with any success either, same for Charlie. The offense is a major work in progress. Game 1 they looked impressive running stuff and it has deteriorated since
-
@BeddieKU23 I really think KJ Lawson is the answer when the opposing big stays on the perimeter.
-
@BeddieKU23 -IIRC, Self uses the Christmas break to install a lot of offensive schemes?
-
I’m hopeful he’s a solution as well. So far he’s the odd man out of the rotation unless foul trouble/injury etc pops up.
-
@JayHawkFanToo Hem’s big claim to fame is suggesting that Bill go to a 4 out, which we did, and made a final four. Because Bill went to the 4 out, this has left HEM chasing ghosts of the past in order to find something wrong with self that he can complain about. i’m sure a Jamari thread will be soon to follow.
-
In the years I have been reading here, I have grown convinced that anyone reading this site as their only information source about KU would conclude Self has a losing record, that KU never is better than middle of the pack, and that we are hoping for maybe our second or third victory at best before conference season starts in Jan.
Never saw a more discouraged fanbase for an undefeated team. We really aren’t doing that bad for a team that is understandably struggling a bit to replace three starters and a stuck-in-limbo key sub with freshmen and transfers.
-
You are right, last year team had no depth but the starters were solid and could hit the 3; don’t forget that Newman was also a good 3 point shooter and the key player down they stretch.
This version has arguably more talent but different kind of talent and they still has not found the right chemistry. Once Grimes starts playing to his potential and Dotson and More start hitting 3s the team will be much, much better.
-
…while playing a tough schedule, #1 Massey, #5 Sagarin, #6 Pomeroy and no other team in the top 50 or even 100 comes close since the toughest schedules, at this time of the season, are usually reserved for minor programs that travel to big programs to take a beating and collect a pay check.
-
@JayHawkFanToo Your cited quote shows nothing. In fact, Self has used that phrase many times. And further, he has berated the idea of relying on shooting. That’s the main point – he was disgusted with the idea of relying on shooting. Now, of course, that’s different. And that was different over the past few years when he changed, and he specifically did rely on shooting.
This is not a difference of opinion. When the son rises in the east, it’s not an opinion to suggest it rises in the west. The entire issue with “fool’s gold” and how foolish the comment was, related to playing to our strength. The items Self admitted the next year, that I quoted. Again, Self admitted it. Self admitted that he was misguided in not playing to his strength. He recognized his error. Regardless of the team’s strength, he wanted it pumped inside. That’s foolishness. It’s not foolishness, for example, when your strength is scoring inside and you don’t shoot well from three (kind of like this season). Shooting from outside is not fool’s gold on a team that has that skill as it’s primary offensive strength. Again, Self evolved to an obviously different position. Heck, and don’t forget, he now loves the 4/1.
The issue is not whether a team has to have some sort of balance. Of course. Every team does. In the fool’s gold period we lived in, it was Self’s rigid hostility toward the concept of relying on three point shooting as your primary offensive weapon.
Self changed. Perhaps you can now recognized the obvious (again with Self’s admissions) and dispense with the revisionist history.
-
…and I bet you will take credit for last evening’s 3 point defense as well…SMH.
-
@JayHawkFanToo I appreciate your moderation.
-
I was happy with the defense for the most part last night. Wofford point blank missed a lot of shots they could make so KU can’t take all the credit. But we sure made life difficult for Magee & Hoover last night on almost every trip. Definitely looks like KU practiced and game-planned for their shooting. Kudos to coaches and players for execution
-
Grimes had much improved defensive effort and awareness. That seemed to help him gain confidence once he hit a few shots and got some easy baskets. That was a big glimpse of what he’s capable of night in and night out
-
3 point shooting offense needs work. Missed a ton of open good looks. Dedric especially has to start making some. He’s getting plenty of room to tee up and they are just not going down. We will have plenty of games where we struggle from deep when Vick isn’t making 7 a night
-
BeddieKU23 said:
3 point shooting offense needs work. Missed a ton of open good looks. Dedric especially has to start making some. He’s getting plenty of room to tee up and they are just not going down. We will have plenty of games where we struggle from deep when Vick isn’t making 7 a night
Dedric had one that was all but in too…
-
Dedric has never been a good deep shooter. He was around 30% in his 2 years at Memphis. Other than Vick, none of these players have a reputation for being able to make 3’s and even Vick has always been a very streaky shooter and a consistent guy. When Vick isn’t making 3’s for several games in a row, it’ll happen at some point this year, KU is going to have to get the ball into the paint and muscle ball it to the basket and live at the FT line.
If I’m an opposing coach, I pack the paint and only worry about Vick on the perimeter. I really wouldn’t be worried about anyone else hurting me with perimeter shooting at this point and could live with myself is a 30% shooter has a hot night.
