Help-Side Defense issue
-
Glad KU got the W in OT. It wasn’t pretty but we saw some more heroics from Vick again. This dude is having a great season so far.
I know its early but is anyone else alarmed at KU leaving shooters open on the perimeter? I’ve been seeing this trend from KU for years but its really noticeable this season. Why is KU helping so much on drives and leaving shooters WIDE OPEN? KU has depth and size to play teams differently.
Self is usually really good about making adjustments. Film should point this out easily. Teach these kids to stay home on drives and let defenders play 1 on 1. I would love to see how well teams shoot the 3 against KU when they don’t give them a dozen or so wide open looks a game.
What does everyone think? How can Self change/improve this defense
-
@BeddieKU23 We’re overhelping on drives, which is leaving people wide open on the perimeter…
-
yeah this is frustrating, coaches need to emphasize this point in practice and tape watching.
-
When Doke is in this should never happen. That is the advantage of a rim protector or at least the illusion of one.
-
@BeddieKU23 I rack my brain on this. The only thing I can only imagine is he likes to have anyone driving get doubled to protect Doke (and before him, our other foul-prone bigs) from more fouls. It may be an outgrowth of 2 things: first, Self wants to keep bigs in the game to keep alive his preference for High/Low. Second, like most current coaches, Self “grew up” when 3 ptrs were the bailiwick of so-called specialists, like Terry Brown. He may just instinctively believe 2 pt shots, which historically have been more accurate, are more dangerous in volume than 3 point shots.
Unfortunately, I have no explanation for how he might still believe these things, or teach them to his players after the past several years, primarily the 'Nova game last year.
-
mayjay said:
@BeddieKU23 I rack my brain on this. The only thing I can only imagine is he likes to have anyone driving get doubled to protect Doke (and before him, our other foul-prone bigs) from more fouls. It may be an outgrowth of 2 things: first, Self wants to keep bigs in the game to keep alive his preference for High/Low. Second, like most current coaches, Self “grew up” when 3 ptrs were the bailiwick of so-called specialists, like Terry Brown. He may just instinctively believe 2 pt shots, which historically have been more accurate, are more dangerous in volume than 3 point shots.
Unfortunately, I have no explanation for how he might still believe these things, or teach them to his players after the past several years, primarily the 'Nova game last year.
As with most things with Self its a process before he makes landslide adjustments. We saw how he evolved his offense to personnel the last few seasons but that was how many years in the making. I believe this is the same deal, he’s not there yet to making defensive changes.
His defensive philosophy used to be one of the best in the country but I no longer see his scheme working in today’s game. With so much emphasis on perimeter shooting and spacing I’m truly at a lost for words why there hasn’t been noticeable adjustments in this area. Maybe he’s still a ways away from adjustments but its frustrating seeing guys leave their defender to hedge 2-3 feet over, not disrupt the drive/play and then watch that man drill a wide open 3. Seems counterproductive. I do believe coaching can change this issue that we’ve seen bite us before, as you mentioned Nova, Final 4 and other games recently. I’m wondering when enough is enough for Self.
A side note. Doke is foul prone but most of Doke’s fouls are turnovers. Self mentioned this in his presser last week I believe. He doesn’t foul a ton defensively. He gets most of his fouls for player control violations. Trying to drive his man up the lane and seal, trying to score in the post with brute force, going over the top on defenders for rebounds, moving screens. I would bet 80% of his fouls this year have been from those. Doke has been a quality rim defender this season when he actually is in position to make a play.
-
KUSTEVE said:
@BeddieKU23 We’re overhelping on drives, which is leaving people wide open on the perimeter…
Yes which was the main point of this thread. My question is why are we helping when its not working. Players have been taught this way, coaches have the power to change it. We certainly have the depth and size to allow guys to ‘man them up’.
-
KU’s defense early in the Stanford game was stellar. At one point they looked completely without rhythm or a purpose.
Haase then changed his offense going 5 out, spreading the ball with a big screening up top and cutting to the hoop which had success at least 4-5 times during the game. They were able to scheme successfully to get Doke out of the lane and out of position.
-
@BeddieKU23 Alarmed? Only for several years.
-
AsadZ said:
yeah this is frustrating, coaches need to emphasize this point in practice and tape watching.
Or is this behavior part of a defensive philosophy that is coached from before the 3 point shot proficiency became a defining characteristic of players games and 3 pt > 2pt strategy worked its way into more and more coachds philosophy.
Self was always until last 2-3 years an Inside-Out coach. Makes me wonder that he hasn’t completely adjusted to the new reality in his defensive coaching philosophy and practice. Not a knock, just this kind of thing has happened now for years And we don’t seem to have fully adapted. Obviously, there is always an element of execution vs plan that falls on the players but can’t help but wonder if one thing is drilled over and over, and the other is a once in a while instruction and players fall to form versus remembering instruction on case by case basis. Some teams and coaches seem to be much more oriented to both offensive and defensive mindset and player performance on the 3 line.
-
@BeddieKU23 & @mayjay2 if it have kept reading, you all captured my instinct/thoughts on the matter.
-
As Bills pointed out during the Stanford game, you gain nothing by helping off the corner guy. The drive is already resulting in a contested shot, flashing in from the corner doesn’t make it more difficult it just leaves a guy open. Self knows this, he exploited it with Svi for years. Why the guys defend that way is beyond me. Maybe years of HS ball ingrains it into them and its a hard habit to break. Maybe it’s just different enough from how you guard out top they lose their minds in the heat of the moment. But it’s definitely something that needs beat into the defenders head.
-
Before we start over analyzing Coach Self let’s take a minute and consider that only two players in the primary rotation have played decent minutes before and the rest of the players are really new to this team, even when some have played elsewhere before or sat for a year.
A lot of the problems I have seen are players not doing what they are supposed to be doing, i.e. covering their man or properly switching and leaving the corner man open; this is particularly obvious with Grimes who has been an enigma after such a promising start but seem now lost on the court. Once the game “slows down” some that team will be fine. It is obvious that Coach Self is still does not have a set starting five and is sill tinkering with various lineups to see which is more effective against the various styles.
The GIF below shows Calipari physically shoving a player to the position he is supposed to be; I am sure all coaches feel like doing the same thing a lot of the time.
If the GIF does not work here is a link.
-
.649 #303 out of 351 teams according to ncaa.com That is what will be our downfall this season. It’s one of the worst statistics I’ve ever seen for a KU team.
FREE THROWS BILL. SPEND THE WHOLE PRACTICE WORKING ON FREE THROWS. THEY ARE
FREE
-
The reason I’m analyzing Self in regards to this issue is because I believe that coaching can change it. If I can notice it, I’m sure he’s aware as well. So why haven’t we seen changes?
Is it the players? Could be but we have seen this issue pop for years now. Maybe Self is teaching them differently and guys are reverting to old habits. I don’t have the answer which is why its good to talk about it.
It’s still early and KU has played a tough non-conference where weaknesses tend to get exposed so I’m really not trying to be too critical. However this issue does look like the main issue with KU’s defense right now. It’s correctable and I’m looking to see changes in the upcoming games- especially with Villanova coming to town in a few weeks
-
It’s good to see I’m not alone here. I expected this years defense to be better with all the depth and size. However what we’ve seen so far in every game is some fundamental breakdowns from players/coaching that are leaving them vulnerable.
-
Bill needs a visit from the Mayor again.
-
Kcmatt7 said:
Bill needs a visit from the Mayor again.
Good thing he’s available right now… Self get on the ringer
-
@BeddieKU23 It’s very concerning that this has been going on for years. When we have the size and length to really extend our D on the perimeter and force tough 2s over length. I really expected Bill to funnel opponents to the middle and dare them to shoot over Doke and Dedric this season.
-
@BeddieKU23 And my post was before that even happened lol. Get him to Lawrence for a week, please.
-
Kcmatt7 said:
Bill needs a visit from the Mayor again.
Strongly agree.
This is a philosophy issue. Self would rather give up wide open threes than potentially give up an easy two.
-
@drgnslayr Do you see Doke’s shooting form? It’s still horrible. He’s shooting 41%. Seriously, most of us could hit 41% using our non-shooting hand. I can’t even fathom this. I bet he could do better doing a baby hook like he does in the lane. He has better touch that way.
I don’t think for a minute that Self is conceding three pointers, but in all defenses, there are priorities. And those priorities (and the weaknesses) are exacerbated when the talent level (mental too) is lower on that end of the floor. But the horrible defense vs. Nova causes me concern regarding those priorities.
@Kcmatt7 said, " I really expected Bill to funnel opponents to the middle and dare them to shoot over Doke and Dedric this season." I expected that too.
@JayHawkFanToo Everything is the players not doing what Self says to do. It’s never Bill Self. Gotcha. You know, because Bill Self never makes errors or mistakes. You need to concede that Self’s errors may be contributing here – “may be.” Just concede that it’s in realm of possibility.
Now, I’m more in the camp that the team needs time to gel. And learn to work together. And that Grimes is a huge part of reaching our peak. This is a work in progress – still, there’s the Nova game. And that this has been going on for a while.
-
I did not say the players were the only reason but there is no question they are a great part of the issue as shown by Coach Self continuing to experiment with lineups to find the optimal combination, both on offense and defense. Frankly, other than Garret most of the KU players are more used and better suited to playing offense rather than defense but, as Grimes is finding out, if you don’t play defense you will ride the pine.
Do you honestly think Coach Self tells the players leave the man in the corner open to shoot the 3 and we will take our chances? To me, the problem seems to be more of one of execution rather than design and I am sure you disagree but then…you think you are a better coach than Self so naturally know more than he does.
-
One of the reasons we help so heavily on drives is that Doke is not a great rim protector. As a shot blocker, he is very underwhelming for his size. We remember a guy like Jeff Withey just being incredible in that regard. Well, Doke is basically the opposite of that. His timing isn’t instinctive enough to take full advantage of his size and athletic ability.
I think others have hit on the other issues, but continuing to view the three point shot as “fool’s gold” is a big issue. When I was growing up, we had coaches tell us to give up open threes because teams would get suckered into taking lots of them, even after they started missing. There was always the belief that eventually a team would go cold. In today’s game, you can’t just assume guys will eventually start missing because they might stay that hot all game. Heck, Lagerald Vick has been hot for three weeks now. Steph Curry has been hot since 2013. That’s just the new normal. Old school coaches have to change that mindset because guys aren’t just going to start missing.
-
@JayHawkFanToo So its a matter of execution multiple times every single game for the last several years? I do not think so.
@HighEliteMajor Agreed about Doke’s form. Completely and utterly inexcusable that STILL no coaching has been done to make sure he has a proper form. Makes zero sense to me.
-
@BShark Bingo!! Only the two’s that he wants to prevent are almost always with a defender guarding them, making them not so easy baskets in the paint. As a player, would I rather shoot a tough two in the paint, or would I rather shoot a wide open three in the corner? I’ll take the open three all day. 3>2
-
Kcmatt7 said:
@BeddieKU23 And my post was before that even happened lol. Get him to Lawrence for a week, please.
Fortuitous timing there. Bravo. And yes maybe we can get Adidas to foot the bill. It’s not like they are paying recruits right now. LOL. Too soon?
-
It is my understanding that he “fool’s gold” comment was taken out of context. All Coach Self was saying is that a teams should not rely primarily on 3 point shooting but have a more inclusive repertoire on offense so, if the 3 is not going in, you have other options; in any case, the comment was related to KU offense and not defense. KU has been shooting 3s extensively for the last couple of years when it had players capable of doing it with some consistency. Last season KU had Graham, Svi, Vick and Newman, all of which could hit the 3 at a good clip; right now, other than Vick KU does not have another reliable 3 point shooter.
The 3 point defense is a different subject and one that seems to be in flux at this time but I expect will be fixed in the next few games…or at least I hope it does.
-
@BeddieKU23 Yes, coaching can change it. Michigan under Beilein has always been efficient offensively, but never used to be much of a defensive team - that is, until he brought on a new assistant implemented new scheme and now they are one of the best defensive teams in the country,
-
@BeddieKU23 And, with regard to Vilanova, perhaps the coaching staff can watch the Michigan - Villanova game with the boys to see how to effectively guard the perimeter. Nova only got off 15 3pt shots and made just 3…
-
HawkChamp said:
@BShark Bingo!! Only the two’s that he wants to prevent are almost always with a defender guarding them, making them not so easy baskets in the paint. As a player, would I rather shoot a tough two in the paint, or would I rather shoot a wide open three in the corner? I’ll take the open three all day. 3>2
It’s just basic math and 3 point shooting has improved so much from when Self got started.
-
BShark said:
… and 3 point shooting has improved so much from when Self got started.
Hehe…tell that to Garrett.
-
JayHawkFanToo said:
It is my understanding that he “fool’s gold” comment was taken out of context. All Coach Self was saying is that a teams should not rely primarily on 3 point shooting but have a more inclusive repertoire on offense so, if the 3 is not going in, you have other options; in any case, the comment was related to KU offense and not defense.
I agree with you on this point. Self was certainly talking about offense when he made the comment.
However, I think the comment reflects his overall philosophy to a large degree. Self does not believe you can shoot tons of threes and win consistently. Just look at last year’s national semifinal. Villanova outright blitzed KU from the opening tip, and Self made zero adjustments. He refused to go small. He wouldn’t hedge hard over the top to take away the three. He didn’t extend Doke beyond the paint on Villanova’s bigs. He stuck with his gameplan and watched as Villanova rained fire down on KU.
This is a deep rooted philosophy, not just a flippant quote from Coach Self. Obviously, his strategic belief wins out more often than not (see his record), but if KU wants to win the big ones, that belief has to change with the times.
And don’t get me started on the Grimes situation…
-
@JayHawkFanToo Are you kidding me? The Fool’s Gold comment was not taken out of context. You are flat making that up. We lived it. We listened to it. That’s a bunch of revisionist history. It’s completely false. And it’s all done now, and said now, to try to explain away Self’s prior irrational inflexibility. He said it multiple times. In fact, at halftime of the Utah game at Sprint center he berated the team for outside shooting in an interview. December 13, 2014. We proceeded to come out and tried to force it inside, only to blow a 20 point lead and almost lose. That was near the height of the foolishness. That season was a disaster because coach Self continued to try to make Kansas into something they weren’t.
Self actively worked to limit three point shooting. He gyrated. He flopped around on the bench. He pulled players regularly.
We don’t see any of that anymore related to three point shooting. None of it.
And Bill Self admitted that he forced his team to be something it wasn’t. And Self admitted he was wrong.
Many here pointed out this irrationality as it happened. Of course, we hated coach Self, or thought we were better coaches, right?
Now, of course, we see a different coach Self. He changed. We were right, Self was wrong. Dead wrong. He was two or three season’s behind the curve.
Self’s point with the Fool’s Gold comment was never about balance. His point was that reliable offense was close to the hoop. Feed it inside.
Any other claimed explanation is false and again, revisionist history.
After the Texas Tech game in February of 2015, Self’s point was that we couldn’t shoot a high percentage from three point range. This was following a loss at OSU when we shot 10 of 20 from the three. Remember? The three point shot was to blame. It was not reliable offense. These complaints were when we were in a stretch shooting 40+% from three.
Jam it inside, jam it inside. Score close to the basket. That was Self’s mantra.
His mantra as NOT adjusting to the strengths of his team. It as jam it inside.
And as we’ve learned, our team can and did shoot 40+% from three.
Anyone remember Self’'s quotes, and his regrets about his irrationality? How quickly we forget. From December/2015. A year later.
Bill Self - “I do think we need to shoot a higher percentage of threes. I do think we need to play to our strength, which is shooting the basketball.”
Bill Self - “Last year, we kept trying to force it to become something we probably weren’t.”
Self was wrong. Many of us were right.
https://kubuckets.com/topic/3858/monumental-day-from-the-coach-himself
-
Kcmatt7 said:
Bill needs a visit from the Mayor again.
Although I don’t recall the Mayor being a particularly defensive minded coach. Certainly helped Self get through the offensive side of the ball barrier.
-
@dylans exceptions to every rule or trend. Dok being another
-
I agree though, the team is in gel mode and some freshmen adapting to the game. Nothing critical yet, except PERHAPS a defensive philosophy gap in adjusting to the modern approach where there are more and improved 3 point shooters all over the floor.
-
Good post @BeddieKU23 Lots of good opinions here.
-
Here is the entire original “fool’s gold” comment as reported here. Unlike you, I cite the sources and post the links instead of patting myself on the back and citing my own posts. Posters can form their own opinions and again, unlike you, I don’t claim to be infallible and it is fine if they disagree with me,
Morgantown, W.Va. — Kansas University’s basketball team, which lost its first Big 12 game of the season Tuesday night, 74-63, actually led, 14-9, early in Tuesday’s loss at West Virginia, thanks to some early three-point success.
“It was fool’s gold. We were up 13-9 and hadn’t thrown it inside but once,” KU coach Bill Self said.
“We made three threes, but if you go back and watch the tape, I bet you we had not gotten three 50/50 balls that should have been ours,” the coach continued.
“How many times did Devonté (Graham) have the rebound and (Jevon) Carter come right behind and steal it immediately? It happened to Wayne (Selden, Jr.), Brannen (Greene). They have active hands.
“We talk about them being more dangerous behind than in front of us,” Self added after his team committed 22 turnovers and had the ball stolen 12 times.
Kansas hit 10 of 20 from three-point range in the loss after going 4-for-11 in the first half.
-
Bwag said:
AsadZ said:
yeah this is frustrating, coaches need to emphasize this point in practice and tape watching.
Or is this behavior part of a defensive philosophy that is coached from before the 3 point shot proficiency became a defining characteristic of players games and 3 pt > 2pt strategy worked its way into more and more coachds philosophy.
Self was always until last 2-3 years an Inside-Out coach. Makes me wonder that he hasn’t completely adjusted to the new reality in his defensive coaching philosophy and practice. Not a knock, just this kind of thing has happened now for years And we don’t seem to have fully adapted. Obviously, there is always an element of execution vs plan that falls on the players but can’t help but wonder if one thing is drilled over and over, and the other is a once in a while instruction and players fall to form versus remembering instruction on case by case basis. Some teams and coaches seem to be much more oriented to both offensive and defensive mindset and player performance on the 3 line.
Exactly. He’s rather get beat by the 3 than the 2, and he’d rather win with the 2 than the 3. It’s about being a man. In his mind, at least.
-
I vote Dedric Lawson for President!
This guy is perhaps not as athletic as we are used to, but the guy is racking up double-doubles. Why?
F O C U S ! The problem we have always suffered from! We’ve always had the talent and the athleticism. And Self is a heck of a coach in so many ways.
But it takes F O C U S to really execute. Nova… Nova had focus. They came and executed. The difference was stark and we had no chance in that game.
Dedric just hangs in there every game. He’s focused on the ball, and where the ball is going.
I wish Dedric would gather the crew and teach them all “Dedric ZEN!” I wonder if he’s spent hours staring at a candle flame.
Doke… man… settle down! Sit with your candle and count slowly to 100, each number with a breath, and do it until the candle burns out.
Devon… he gets it. He’s sharing a candle with Dedric.
Marcus… inhale… inhale… inhale… whewwwwwww… there you go… let it out… keep air out of your lungs for half a minute and then start breathing again.
Quentin… look in a mirror. Focus on those eyes for an hour. Yes… you got the looks! And the charm… But you need to see a ball player now. Keep staring until you see him!
Charlie… stare into the crystal ball… x-axis! That means… dribble… pass… cut… dribble… pass… cut… dribble… pass… cut… move your feet and create space. Wear down opponents and steal points the second they forget to stop running with you.
Vick… I’ve got nothing to say except OUTSTANDING!
KJ… stare down everyone. Your teammates… your opponents… You have some kind of magic no one is on to yet and it will be appearing sometimes this year and you will bring us Ws. You already have!
Mitch… Take your candle into the weight room and sit down with Hudy. Build bulk all through the season. Forget it if it throws your shot off. Focus on bulk. If you can continue to bulk you will become a freak defender and your muscle will earn you plenty of points. Forget finesse.
David Mactruck… Keep your candle a secret. Sneak on the court late night with just your candle flame and go stealth. Let everyone forget you exist and circle March on your calendar for your real “coming out” party.
-
Self knows:
“Not defending the arc is probably not a remedy for success playing Wofford,” Self said. “They’ve got some guys who can really shoot it. They’ve got guys … what appears to be maybe a marginal shot or bad shot are great shots for them. Whenever one guy (senior Fletcher Magee) has shot 11 threes a game — he has shot 87 and Lagerald (Vick) has been on fire and shot 47 (making 28 for 59.6 percent) … think about that. We’ve got to do a great job of defending the arc.”
“That shows us a lot,” Self said. “We’re fortunate to have the record we have. Also I think when other guys start seeing the ball go in the hole, it’ll definitely change our team. I’d say the three-point line is a concern both ways.”
Read more here: https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article222580530.html#storylink=cpy
-
We’re simply a hodge podge of a few different teams cobbled together. Even so, this team has a strong will to win … they know how to close, which makes them border line elite even if they don’t look very pretty yet.
-
@HighEliteMajor 100% Agree, as I have stated for a few years now, Basketball is changing. You need good 3 point shooting to win nowadays. Look at the Stanford game for instance, they shot a ton of threes compared to their loses and it its what kept the game close. It’s the same way you see the spread offense working in the NFL. People maybe against the change and say it’s bad ball but it works.
-
@kjayhawks Stanford still is .500.
-
kjayhawks said:
@HighEliteMajor 100% Agree, as I have stated for a few years now, Basketball is changing. You need good 3 point shooting to win nowadays. Look at the Stanford game for instance, they shot a ton of threes compared to their loses and it its what kept the game close. It’s the same way you see the spread offense working in the NFL. People maybe against the change and say it’s bad ball but it works.
They (Stanford) shot a lot of 3’s because KU’s defense gave them open looks which when broken down reveals a big issue right now with KU’s defense on hedging/help-side defense. Stanford took what the defense gave them which was wide open shots from practically every spot on the perimeter.
Opponents have shot 66-177 on 3’s so far against KU (37%). KU, in comparison is 47-107 (43.9%) with Vick (59% and 28 makes) being a majority of that. So opponents have made 19 more 3’s and attempted 70 more.
So far it hasn’t led to wins for the opponent and probably a big part of that is KU has a higher margin for error with its depth and talent across the board.
I would bet good money Wofford takes more 3’s and makes more tonight. Some of that is a product of their offense anyway but right now Self and his players look content to let teams T up open shots as long as the end result is a W for KU. Villanova & Arizona St are games that could potentially make Self adjust some things after for conference play and March. This group is a real work in progress
-
I expect a much better 3 point defense this evening; I will guess the coaching staff has been working on a game plan that suits the current skills of the team,
-
@Crimsonorblue22 You missed the point, Stanford didn’t do that in their losses.
-
@BeddieKU23 I think that is defiantly some of the issue for sure. I’m just saying “small ball” is the new norm and has worked pretty darn well, even for us. I think we have trouble guarding the 3 point line with 2 bigs on the floor at the same time. It looked better even with Doke fouled out against Tennessee and if we continue to do so, we will give away some games. Dedric isn’t athletic enough to cover the ground he needs to on the perimeter.
-
KU doesn’t have the shooters to put up more threes. Vick and…?
Last year I wanted to see nothing but threes by Vick, Svi, Graham and dunks by Dok. This year the shooting isn’t nearly as good and the offense needs to be more creative. I really think the best offense this team will have is playing good defense and getting runouts. We’ve seen flashes of awesome D, now to get the guys to play that hard on D for an entire game. That’s what has set the ‘08 team above all the others to come since- D.
