Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?
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This seems like the elephant in the room, maybe someone’s already mentioned it and I missed it. We all know Self isn’t a huge fan of Drew. Self has to be ticked about last year’s tourney cancellation, and embarrassed by this year’s performance, relatively speaking at least. Not saying he should, but I’m guessing he is. He’s a competitor.
So assuming that the answer to my subject question is “yes”, how does that translate in recruiting, coaching, etc.? And if the answer is “no”, why not? He’s already hungry? We just haven’t seen it due to the dark recruiting cloud over our program?
I just think seeing Scott Drew up there has to have him hacked off and I’m curious to see how he responds. I get it, he’s a big boy, he’s competitive already, doesn’t need something like this to drive him harder. But I tend to think it still does.
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In the same amount of time (18 years), Self and Drew have the exact same number of NCs. Think about that. And Self inherited a Rolls Royce. Drew inherited an exploded Pinto.
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@Fightsongwriter Interesting hot take.
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@Fightsongwriter said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
In the same amount of time (18 years), Self and Drew have the exact same number of NCs. Think about that. And Self inherited a Rolls Royce. Drew inherited an exploded Pinto.
Drew inherited a flat tire. Seven scholarship players in his first year. Huge scandal. No upside at all.
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Bill had some BRUTAL misses but imo 2011 was the worst.
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@Fightsongwriter said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
In the same amount of time (18 years), Self and Drew have the exact same number of NCs. Think about that. And Self inherited a Rolls Royce. Drew inherited an exploded Pinto.
It’s also harder to stay at the top of the mountain than to get there.
In many ways, inheriting a good situation is more pressure than going to one where there are few expectations. Look, I like Drew and I like this Baylor team, but let’s see how things go now that they’ve reached the pinnacle. Sports are always much harder when you’re the hunted and every team has you circled on their calendar.
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Good points. Both Self and Drew faced challenges that are massively different.
Self’s challenge was to take over a blue blood program after Roy had virtually established himself in the HOF in 15 years at KU.
Drew’s challenge was to take over a program virtually destroyed by scandal and sanctions. In a football state. In Waco.
Vastly different journeys to get to reach the pinnacle. Both worthy of admiration for different reasons.
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Drew is built for the long haul. We are not.
Drew’s program is “spiritual based.” Watch them pray on the court. He goes after recruits in a totally different way than Self. I really enjoyed this Baylor team. These players have class. In many ways it isn’t possible to compare these coaches.
I’m watching Drew’s players develop at higher clip. That really became apparent this year. He has a strategy for building his team in a different way than Self. I don’t see how anyone can deny the differences.
We’ve bought in to the idea that we can recruit our way to a NC. We are just a slightly different mix than Calipari at UK, but not so different. Even Duke has bought into this (for the most part).
Maybe this year was just a weird year because of Covid… but I don’t think so. And the last NC was Virginia… another development team. Baylor was a development team that was also blessed with quality recruits. Best of both worlds. Gonzaga… development team. Nova… development team. This is the new direction of D1. Heck… Duke couldn’t win it all with Zion!
With the ease of players transferring… what will keep players at Kansas? Are we going to shift to higher player turnover? Look what we lost to transfer this year. Does anyone really think we can put together a team that gels enough to win a NC with a bunch of 1 and 2 year players?
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@drgnslayr Yes we can put together teams that gel with 1 and 2 year players.
LITERALLY every single elite 8 team this year had at least one transfer starting. KU is honestly behind the times by NOT having hit the transfer market harder than we did until this season.
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5 of the 8 teams in the Elite 8 not only started a transfer, but had a freshman play 20+ MPG.
Houston, Michigan, USC, Arkansas and Gonzaga all had a transfer start and a freshman play 20+ MPG.
Baylor had 4 rotation players who were transfers in Flagler, Mitchell, Tchatchoua and Teague.
Houston had 5 rotation players who were transfers.
Gonzaga had Nembhard and Cook who were transfers and their best player was a OAD.
Arkansas had a OAD, a freshman and 3 transfers in their rotation.
Oregon State had two transfers in their rotation.
Michigan started a OAD and had two transfers in their rotation.
USC had 3 transfers and a OAD in their rotation.
The most original roster was UCLA - who only had their leading scorer as a transfer.
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@Fightsongwriter Well yeah, but what college aged stud doesn’t want to live (temporarily) in Waco, Tx. It is the mecca of college basketball.
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@Kcmatt7 nice breakdown.
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@Kcmatt7 also as maybe it was you who mentioned, UCLA was the only non Nike team in E8 (UA). No coincidence. How many non Nike teams have won in the last 15 years?
To significantly develop a player they have to have a high ceiling. Doke, Frank, Devonte, Ochai have high ceilings, and they developed quite nicely under Self.
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@nuleafjhawk said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@Fightsongwriter Well yeah, but what college aged stud doesn’t want to live (temporarily) in Waco, Tx. It is the mecca of college basketball.
You clearly haven’t been to Waco recently. Joanna Gaines has all of her Magnolia brand stuff headquartered in Waco which attracts many young women to Waco for either weekend trips or longer.
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True… but I know key players were typically junior/seniors… and developed players. I know newbies can play a key role (Suggs)… but without the experienced crew I don’t think it is likely.
nuleaf… I’ve been amazed at how much of Texas has transformed over the past decade or so. I used to live in Dallas… back when it was in the dark ages, and still far ahead of many parts of Texas. Today, I work with many people from Austin, Waco, etc. and I’m amazed at their progressive nature and “modernism.”
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@tis4tim That is such a blatantly ridiculous homer comment that I cannot dignify it with refutation.
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@nuleafjhawk Well kinda irrelevant to my point, but as one who lived in Waco, it is a certified arm pit. You actually accentuated my point I guess. Drew’s abandoned Pinto was left in God forsaken Waco!
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My opinion on the transfer situation is this year is going to be a spike year in transfer numbers for two reasons. 1st is this is the first year the new transfer rule so we’re naturally going to see a spike. The other reason is because of the extra year of eligibility everyone has.
The transfer rule also states that a player can only transfer once without having to sit out. That rule is going to bring transfer numbers back down next year. I think numbers will plateau higher than before the transfer rule was implemented, but a lot lower than this season as well.
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@BShark You honestly think you can win a national championship with Reed and Morningstar starting? The Selby suspension and lack of development killed any hopes.
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@BigBad said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@BShark You honestly think you can win a national championship with Reed and Morningstar starting? The Selby suspension and lack of development killed any hopes.
With the NBA talent surrounding those two, absolutely. Even without Selby, Reed and Morningstar were surrounded with NBA talent.
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@BigBad They had all the benchmarks that title winning teams meet and lost a corner case game. One of 3 losses all year. Reed was a great player, I’d take a Reed next year. Much more athletic than Braun.
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@BShark Trying to draw out he-who-shall-not-be-named?
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Several pros on that roster for sure, the good old days.
@mayjay Now to do that, I think I’d have to advocate for a Morningstar, Traylor, Lucas line-up.
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@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@BShark Trying to draw out he-who-shall-not-be-named?
His beef was always with playing Brady over Elijah, never really mentioned Reed.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 That reminds me…Did EJ ever explain why he flicked the Michigan guy in the 'nads?
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The Michigan game still stings. They were running them off the court…
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Michigan game hurts way more than VCU to me.
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Funny no one ever mentions Tharpe as a vital cog of the past. That last EJ pass to the poor guy…looked totally shocked, as were we all.
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@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 That reminds me…Did EJ ever explain why he flicked the Michigan guy in the 'nads?
EJ made a lot of poor decisions on and off the court. I believe he was suspended at least once a season for “violation of team rules” which in his case meant busted for weed.
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@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
Funny no one ever mentions Tharpe as a vital cog of the past. That last EJ pass to the poor guy…looked totally shocked, as were we all.
Tharpe was, um, probably one of the few guards of the past I wouldn’t have taken on last year’s roster.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Did we have any suspensions or off-court incidents this year? I remember people being so concerned about the “character” of our players after Josh-in-the-parking-lot, Preston-on-the-curb and Bragg-pretty-much-everywhere.
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@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Did we have any suspensions or off-court incidents this year? I remember people being so concerned about the “character” of our players after Josh-in-the-parking-lot, Preston-on-the-curb and Bragg-pretty-much-everywhere.
Depends on how you view and categorize Silvio DeSousa’s situation.
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@BShark said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
Funny no one ever mentions Tharpe as a vital cog of the past. That last EJ pass to the poor guy…looked totally shocked, as were we all.
Tharpe was, um, probably one of the few guards of the past I wouldn’t have taken on last year’s roster.
Was there anyone here sad to lose Tharpe because I don’t remember a lot of mourning over that loss.
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Oh, yeah, him.
The timing meant that all the news coming out about his assault charged referred to him as a “former” Jayhawk player. For once the staff acted preemptively.
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Followup on my words about Baylor being different…
What changed my mind about Drew and Baylor was Isaiah Austin… and how Drew kept Austin around after his tragedy. And then Drew thought it was important to test players’ hearts, a move that probably saved King McClure’s life. Kind of made me wonder why aren’t all schools testing to this level, especially after Jo Acuil also had heart issues.
Here are a couple of reads.
Austin is one of my fav players of today, even though he plays in China. The guy takes a lickin’ and keeps on tickin’!
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I never thought of it like that. Dang you - now EVERY potential KU recruit will run to Waco for the chance to check out Joanna’s shiplap.
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@Fightsongwriter said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@tis4tim That is such a blatantly ridiculous homer comment that I cannot dignify it with refutation.
A self-described co-lyricist of the KU fight song calling someone else a homer. Irony at its finest.
Look, man, respond or don’t, but try to keep it civil. I’d like to think I’ve been nothing but respectful to everyone on this board in my time here and the least I could expect is the same courtesy in return. Thanks.
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@tis4tim first class all the way!
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@nuleafjhawk said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I never thought of it like that. Dang you - now EVERY potential KU recruit will run to Waco for the chance to check out Joanna’s shiplap.
It’s not to check out the shiplap itself, it’s to check out the girls checking out the shiplap that’s the problem.
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@approxinfinity said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
To significantly develop a player they have to have a high ceiling. Doke, Frank, Devonte, Ochai have high ceilings, and they developed quite nicely under Self.
True. However – and I have no data to back this up, just the eye-test – I would say there has been less development the past 5 years as compared with the first 10+ years of Self’s tenure. I think a little shakeup in the coaching staff could be helpful with regard to this.
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@tis4tim Clearly you don’t seem to understand the definition of homer. Or irony or civil for that matter. My comment that Drew taking over a complete and utter dumpster fire vs. Self taking over a stocked blue blood was, in fact, the opposite of a pro KU or homerish observation. Saying Self had it harder is like saying your Lamborghini has car troubles when it needs an oil change. Baylor’s Toyota was darn near totaled. The engine was certainly blown.
What I hear you saying is you are above someone challenging you for a ridiculous (my opinion) comment on a message board dedicated to dialog and opinions. But you can then turn around and do the exact same thing you accused me of being uncivil for (calling me a homer). Revealing blame-shift tactic. I call foul. If you don’t want to ever have an opinion challenged or debated, don’t post. And I never said following a legend and keeping the train on the track wasn’t a challenge, but to say it was more difficult than what Drew inherited perhaps just reveals you never coached a program. I doubt we would get any argument here from 99.9% of college coaches that Drew faced the (much, dramitcally, exponentially) deeper challenge.
And please don’t call me a liar either (talk about uncivil), there is nothing “self-described” about my contribution to KU history; it’s a relatively meaningless blip in the annals of KU lore, but it is fact. Look it up.
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@Fightsongwriter said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@tis4tim Clearly you don’t seem to understand the definition of homer. Or irony or civil for that matter. My comment that Drew taking over a complete and utter dumpster fire vs. Self taking over a stocked blue blood was, in fact, the opposite of a pro KU or homerish observation. Saying Self had it harder is like saying your Lamborghini has car troubles when it needs an oil change. Baylor’s Toyota was darn near totaled. The engine was certainly blown.
What I hear you saying is you are above someone challenging you for a ridiculous (my opinion) comment on a message board dedicated to dialog and opinions. But you can then turn around and do the exact same thing you accused me of being uncivil for (calling me a homer). Revealing blame-shift tactic. I call foul. If you don’t want to ever have an opinion challenged or debated, don’t post. And I never said following a legend and keeping the train on the track wasn’t a challenge, but to say it was more difficult than what Drew inherited perhaps just reveals you never coached a program. I doubt we would get any argument here from 99.9% of college coaches that Drew faced the (much, dramitcally, exponentially) deeper challenge.
And please don’t call me a liar either (talk about uncivil), there is nothing “self-described” about my contribution to KU history; it’s a relatively meaningless blip in the annals of KU lore, but it is fact. Look it up.
Great Points. - -Drew had for sure HANDS DOWN a lot harder conditions when he took over Baylor no question. Coach Self is a great Coach for sure, but if people are trying to say Self had it harder then Drew - -come on man let me have some of the shit your smoking - cause it’s difinetely made you dillusional.
Baylor’s program was on the verge of an Atomic meltdown when Drew took over that, what he has done at Baylor deserves the props that are due.
Coach Self has done great in following Roy & yes it’s hard to follow someone that done as well as Roy - -BUT the shelf wasn’t exactly bare when he Coach took over , it will be like when Coach Self leaves - -it’s going to be very hard to replace him BUT again WHEN he does the shelf isn’t going to be bare by a long shot, Not even close to what Drew took over with at Baylor.
NOW just like when Drew leaves Baylor it’s going to be really hard to follow him because of what he HASA DONE with that program, those are things that will be really hard to compare to for what he has done. I agree with you 10000% Fight Song Writer
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@Fightsongwriter i think the brief dust up stemmed from you saying you wouldn’t “dignify it with refutation”. I enjoyed your refutation once you got prodded a bit
Lets continue on the point.I do see the point @tis4tim is making, and I took it as a devils advocate position. I think the challenges that resurrecting a program present are much more apparent than coaching a program that is already enjoying success.
I often thought about Shakas struggles at Texas as a similar situation. Just because he had access to OAD talent in the Texas pipeline doesn’t mean he would be better at building with it than with mostly 4 year talent at VCU.
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@Fightsongwriter Saying someone’s comment is not worth responding to is not a contribution to “debate” and seems designed only to inflame.
You are now in ongoing confrontations with 2 different posters on 2 threads. Just an observation since we on this board generally try t0o be at least somewhat respectful. In other words, even if calling someone a damned fool might be accurate, it is better to do so in other, respectful, terms.
Like “That’s crazy! Can you show me when…?” rather than, “You [effing] clown!”
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@mayjay lol you effing clown!
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@jayballer67 no question what Drew has accomplished in his time at Baylor is just incredible. Still don’t like him. Can’t get over how much he reminds me of Saul Goodman! LOL
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None of the other coaches in the league really like Drew, and that was before he was winning at a high level. Says a lot.
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@Oldmanhawk feel the same way, love the show!
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Interesting that his players seem to like him, they stick around and redshirt. Don’t know if he’ll get away with that going forward but he definitely benefitted from it winning a title
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@BeddieKU23 it takes being like…Bruce for players to not like you. Most kids like their coach. Self is also REALLY honest with kids.
