Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?
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@Kcmatt7 nice breakdown.
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@Kcmatt7 also as maybe it was you who mentioned, UCLA was the only non Nike team in E8 (UA). No coincidence. How many non Nike teams have won in the last 15 years?
To significantly develop a player they have to have a high ceiling. Doke, Frank, Devonte, Ochai have high ceilings, and they developed quite nicely under Self.
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@nuleafjhawk said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@Fightsongwriter Well yeah, but what college aged stud doesn’t want to live (temporarily) in Waco, Tx. It is the mecca of college basketball.
You clearly haven’t been to Waco recently. Joanna Gaines has all of her Magnolia brand stuff headquartered in Waco which attracts many young women to Waco for either weekend trips or longer.
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True… but I know key players were typically junior/seniors… and developed players. I know newbies can play a key role (Suggs)… but without the experienced crew I don’t think it is likely.
nuleaf… I’ve been amazed at how much of Texas has transformed over the past decade or so. I used to live in Dallas… back when it was in the dark ages, and still far ahead of many parts of Texas. Today, I work with many people from Austin, Waco, etc. and I’m amazed at their progressive nature and “modernism.”
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@tis4tim That is such a blatantly ridiculous homer comment that I cannot dignify it with refutation.
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@nuleafjhawk Well kinda irrelevant to my point, but as one who lived in Waco, it is a certified arm pit. You actually accentuated my point I guess. Drew’s abandoned Pinto was left in God forsaken Waco!
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My opinion on the transfer situation is this year is going to be a spike year in transfer numbers for two reasons. 1st is this is the first year the new transfer rule so we’re naturally going to see a spike. The other reason is because of the extra year of eligibility everyone has.
The transfer rule also states that a player can only transfer once without having to sit out. That rule is going to bring transfer numbers back down next year. I think numbers will plateau higher than before the transfer rule was implemented, but a lot lower than this season as well.
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@BShark You honestly think you can win a national championship with Reed and Morningstar starting? The Selby suspension and lack of development killed any hopes.
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@BigBad said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@BShark You honestly think you can win a national championship with Reed and Morningstar starting? The Selby suspension and lack of development killed any hopes.
With the NBA talent surrounding those two, absolutely. Even without Selby, Reed and Morningstar were surrounded with NBA talent.
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@BigBad They had all the benchmarks that title winning teams meet and lost a corner case game. One of 3 losses all year. Reed was a great player, I’d take a Reed next year. Much more athletic than Braun.
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@BShark Trying to draw out he-who-shall-not-be-named?
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Several pros on that roster for sure, the good old days.
@mayjay Now to do that, I think I’d have to advocate for a Morningstar, Traylor, Lucas line-up.
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@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@BShark Trying to draw out he-who-shall-not-be-named?
His beef was always with playing Brady over Elijah, never really mentioned Reed.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 That reminds me…Did EJ ever explain why he flicked the Michigan guy in the 'nads?
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The Michigan game still stings. They were running them off the court…
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Michigan game hurts way more than VCU to me.
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Funny no one ever mentions Tharpe as a vital cog of the past. That last EJ pass to the poor guy…looked totally shocked, as were we all.
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@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 That reminds me…Did EJ ever explain why he flicked the Michigan guy in the 'nads?
EJ made a lot of poor decisions on and off the court. I believe he was suspended at least once a season for “violation of team rules” which in his case meant busted for weed.
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@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
Funny no one ever mentions Tharpe as a vital cog of the past. That last EJ pass to the poor guy…looked totally shocked, as were we all.
Tharpe was, um, probably one of the few guards of the past I wouldn’t have taken on last year’s roster.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Did we have any suspensions or off-court incidents this year? I remember people being so concerned about the “character” of our players after Josh-in-the-parking-lot, Preston-on-the-curb and Bragg-pretty-much-everywhere.
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@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Did we have any suspensions or off-court incidents this year? I remember people being so concerned about the “character” of our players after Josh-in-the-parking-lot, Preston-on-the-curb and Bragg-pretty-much-everywhere.
Depends on how you view and categorize Silvio DeSousa’s situation.
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@BShark said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@mayjay said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
Funny no one ever mentions Tharpe as a vital cog of the past. That last EJ pass to the poor guy…looked totally shocked, as were we all.
Tharpe was, um, probably one of the few guards of the past I wouldn’t have taken on last year’s roster.
Was there anyone here sad to lose Tharpe because I don’t remember a lot of mourning over that loss.
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Oh, yeah, him.
The timing meant that all the news coming out about his assault charged referred to him as a “former” Jayhawk player. For once the staff acted preemptively.
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Followup on my words about Baylor being different…
What changed my mind about Drew and Baylor was Isaiah Austin… and how Drew kept Austin around after his tragedy. And then Drew thought it was important to test players’ hearts, a move that probably saved King McClure’s life. Kind of made me wonder why aren’t all schools testing to this level, especially after Jo Acuil also had heart issues.
Here are a couple of reads.
Austin is one of my fav players of today, even though he plays in China. The guy takes a lickin’ and keeps on tickin’!
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I never thought of it like that. Dang you - now EVERY potential KU recruit will run to Waco for the chance to check out Joanna’s shiplap.
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@Fightsongwriter said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@tis4tim That is such a blatantly ridiculous homer comment that I cannot dignify it with refutation.
A self-described co-lyricist of the KU fight song calling someone else a homer. Irony at its finest.
Look, man, respond or don’t, but try to keep it civil. I’d like to think I’ve been nothing but respectful to everyone on this board in my time here and the least I could expect is the same courtesy in return. Thanks.
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@tis4tim first class all the way!
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@nuleafjhawk said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I never thought of it like that. Dang you - now EVERY potential KU recruit will run to Waco for the chance to check out Joanna’s shiplap.
It’s not to check out the shiplap itself, it’s to check out the girls checking out the shiplap that’s the problem.
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@approxinfinity said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
To significantly develop a player they have to have a high ceiling. Doke, Frank, Devonte, Ochai have high ceilings, and they developed quite nicely under Self.
True. However – and I have no data to back this up, just the eye-test – I would say there has been less development the past 5 years as compared with the first 10+ years of Self’s tenure. I think a little shakeup in the coaching staff could be helpful with regard to this.
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@tis4tim Clearly you don’t seem to understand the definition of homer. Or irony or civil for that matter. My comment that Drew taking over a complete and utter dumpster fire vs. Self taking over a stocked blue blood was, in fact, the opposite of a pro KU or homerish observation. Saying Self had it harder is like saying your Lamborghini has car troubles when it needs an oil change. Baylor’s Toyota was darn near totaled. The engine was certainly blown.
What I hear you saying is you are above someone challenging you for a ridiculous (my opinion) comment on a message board dedicated to dialog and opinions. But you can then turn around and do the exact same thing you accused me of being uncivil for (calling me a homer). Revealing blame-shift tactic. I call foul. If you don’t want to ever have an opinion challenged or debated, don’t post. And I never said following a legend and keeping the train on the track wasn’t a challenge, but to say it was more difficult than what Drew inherited perhaps just reveals you never coached a program. I doubt we would get any argument here from 99.9% of college coaches that Drew faced the (much, dramitcally, exponentially) deeper challenge.
And please don’t call me a liar either (talk about uncivil), there is nothing “self-described” about my contribution to KU history; it’s a relatively meaningless blip in the annals of KU lore, but it is fact. Look it up.
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@Fightsongwriter said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
@tis4tim Clearly you don’t seem to understand the definition of homer. Or irony or civil for that matter. My comment that Drew taking over a complete and utter dumpster fire vs. Self taking over a stocked blue blood was, in fact, the opposite of a pro KU or homerish observation. Saying Self had it harder is like saying your Lamborghini has car troubles when it needs an oil change. Baylor’s Toyota was darn near totaled. The engine was certainly blown.
What I hear you saying is you are above someone challenging you for a ridiculous (my opinion) comment on a message board dedicated to dialog and opinions. But you can then turn around and do the exact same thing you accused me of being uncivil for (calling me a homer). Revealing blame-shift tactic. I call foul. If you don’t want to ever have an opinion challenged or debated, don’t post. And I never said following a legend and keeping the train on the track wasn’t a challenge, but to say it was more difficult than what Drew inherited perhaps just reveals you never coached a program. I doubt we would get any argument here from 99.9% of college coaches that Drew faced the (much, dramitcally, exponentially) deeper challenge.
And please don’t call me a liar either (talk about uncivil), there is nothing “self-described” about my contribution to KU history; it’s a relatively meaningless blip in the annals of KU lore, but it is fact. Look it up.
Great Points. - -Drew had for sure HANDS DOWN a lot harder conditions when he took over Baylor no question. Coach Self is a great Coach for sure, but if people are trying to say Self had it harder then Drew - -come on man let me have some of the shit your smoking - cause it’s difinetely made you dillusional.
Baylor’s program was on the verge of an Atomic meltdown when Drew took over that, what he has done at Baylor deserves the props that are due.
Coach Self has done great in following Roy & yes it’s hard to follow someone that done as well as Roy - -BUT the shelf wasn’t exactly bare when he Coach took over , it will be like when Coach Self leaves - -it’s going to be very hard to replace him BUT again WHEN he does the shelf isn’t going to be bare by a long shot, Not even close to what Drew took over with at Baylor.
NOW just like when Drew leaves Baylor it’s going to be really hard to follow him because of what he HASA DONE with that program, those are things that will be really hard to compare to for what he has done. I agree with you 10000% Fight Song Writer
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@Fightsongwriter i think the brief dust up stemmed from you saying you wouldn’t “dignify it with refutation”. I enjoyed your refutation once you got prodded a bit
Lets continue on the point.I do see the point @tis4tim is making, and I took it as a devils advocate position. I think the challenges that resurrecting a program present are much more apparent than coaching a program that is already enjoying success.
I often thought about Shakas struggles at Texas as a similar situation. Just because he had access to OAD talent in the Texas pipeline doesn’t mean he would be better at building with it than with mostly 4 year talent at VCU.
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@Fightsongwriter Saying someone’s comment is not worth responding to is not a contribution to “debate” and seems designed only to inflame.
You are now in ongoing confrontations with 2 different posters on 2 threads. Just an observation since we on this board generally try t0o be at least somewhat respectful. In other words, even if calling someone a damned fool might be accurate, it is better to do so in other, respectful, terms.
Like “That’s crazy! Can you show me when…?” rather than, “You [effing] clown!”
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@mayjay lol you effing clown!
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@jayballer67 no question what Drew has accomplished in his time at Baylor is just incredible. Still don’t like him. Can’t get over how much he reminds me of Saul Goodman! LOL
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None of the other coaches in the league really like Drew, and that was before he was winning at a high level. Says a lot.
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@Oldmanhawk feel the same way, love the show!
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Interesting that his players seem to like him, they stick around and redshirt. Don’t know if he’ll get away with that going forward but he definitely benefitted from it winning a title
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@BeddieKU23 it takes being like…Bruce for players to not like you. Most kids like their coach. Self is also REALLY honest with kids.
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@BShark Bruce…LOL
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@mayjay I was at a church thing that night so i wasn’t watching, (one of the benefits of being a man of faith if there is one!) but wasn’t EJ also guilty of the 10 second call?
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@BShark “none of the other coaches like him”. It’s those kind of comments by people here that drove me away from this board for quite some time. That’s a ridiculous thing to write, sorry bro, but you have no basis for writing that.
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Feel free to block me, I’m sharing what I’ve heard.
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@approxinfinity F
FFFF
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@wissox We don’t always know what other people have heard or who they know.
Being here in the 19th century Confederacy–oops, South Carolina–I rely on you for Big 10 and Chicago info (surprised we don’t have more in Windy City), @Crimsonorblue22 for Lawrence through Wichita stuff, @RockChalkinTexas for all things Lone Star, @jayballer67 and virtually anyone except me for recruiting info, etc etc etc. I think we have people like @BShark and @FarmerJayhawk who certainly seem to have a lot more sources connections than most of us.
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All the other coaches in the league might be a little unfair. I know Self is not a fan. I have posted things early recently, choose to believe what you will I won’t stop anyone. I certainly hope I am wrong about Ochai.
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I wonder if Wissox saw Yesufu play any in high school. Wasn’t a big time recruit back then, from Bolingbrook.
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@BShark No never saw nor heard of him until this month. So much talent around here. I’ve only lived here for 4 years, after being gone for 25 years so it’s possible he was out of HS when we moved back.
I’m always amazed when I look at a roster of an opponent and see Chicago kids on it and have no clue who that person is.
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@Fightsongwriter said in Does Baylor's title make Self hungrier?:
What I hear you saying is you are above someone challenging you for a ridiculous (my opinion) comment on a message board dedicated to dialog and opinions. But you can then turn around and do the exact same thing you accused me of being uncivil for (calling me a homer).
What I am “above” is a caustic discourse that devolves into personal attacks. Like I said earlier, respond or don’t but there is a tactful way to do so. Calling someone “ridiculous” or suggesting that their opinion doesn’t merit a reply instantly dismisses said opinion. At that point, there is neither robust discussion nor free exchange of ideas. It becomes “I’m right and you’re wrong”, which is the antithesis of dialog and of a board such as this. That is the root of my “uncivil” comment. I could care less about being called a homer. We’re KU fans on a KU board. Are we all not homers to some degree?
And I never said following a legend and keeping the train on the track wasn’t a challenge, but to say it was more difficult than what Drew inherited perhaps just reveals you never coached a program.
I didn’t know coaching was a pre-requisite for an opinion on the matter. But that seems to fall in line with your MO of negating any opinion that you deem to be “less than”. I also never said that what Drew has accomplished is anything short of amazing. It’s an incredible story from stem to stern and if Hollywood fails to capitalize on it I would be shocked.
But to stoke the fires a bit further: let’s pretend Drew takes over the Baylor program and fails to show any progress what so ever and is summarily fired after a few years. What would the prevailing opinion have been? I suggest it would have been along the lines of, “Oh, well, it was an impossible situation; nobody could have turned around that program as far as it has fallen.” Drew would have most likely emerged unscathed, ego intact and untainted as a potential coaching hire as everyone knew the cards were stacked against him.
Now, let’s pretend Bill wins 10-15 games his first few seasons at KU after we just came off a National Championship appearance in 2003 and after 15 great years of Roy Williams. What would the prevailing opinion have been? Having been a member of this community for some years I know exactly what it would have been. I can recall us losing 3 out of 4 games during one stretch in 2005-2006 and the fan base calling for Bill’s head. That is pressure. And that was my point. Yes, massive difference between Pinto and Lamborghini, but also massive difference in the amount of pressure both men faced at the outset of their tenures and how they would have been perceived nationally had things not panned out the way they did. If you run the Lamborghini into the ditch, the Pinto becomes more reliable transportation, does it not?
In 17 seasons at Kansas, Bill Self is 501-109 (82.1 percent), averaging 29.5 wins per year. That is astounding. Even with looming sanctions plus Covid and a less-than-vintage team we racked up 21 wins. How do you think Drew would have performed with our team? How do you think Bill would have performed with Baylor’s roster? How do you think Baylor would have performed under the threat of sanctions? Drew has won at a 63.4 percent clip over his career. So, even with Nike backing and superior athletes year over year Bill wins 20% more games. Now that he has an NC in his pocket, let’s see if Drew can sustain a winning program for as long as Bill has and at the same elite level.
By the way, how has Indiana done in recent years? UCLA? Arizona? Heard from Matt Doherty lately? The pressure to succeed at those programs is immense and not everyone is cut out for the job. It’ll be interesting to see how Drew handles the pressure cooker that is now Baylor basketball.
And please don’t call me a liar either (talk about uncivil), there is nothing “self-described” about my contribution to KU history; it’s a relatively meaningless blip in the annals of KU lore, but it is fact. Look it up.
I did look it up. I assume you wrote the bio on your profile page. Therefore “self-described” is an apt term. And for the record, the word liar shows up nowhere in my posts. Saying I called you a liar when it’s clearly not the case actually makes you the liar. Ironic, isn’t it? Huh, I guess I do know the definition after all.
I’ve got no beef with you @Fightsongwriter. If you are looking for a fight, you can look elsewhere. Not interested. I won’t disrespect @approxinfinity and the others here and all the work they’ve accomplished with this site by turning it into a cesspool of infighting as has happened with other KU boards. So, this comment marks the end of my discussion with you on this particular matter.
Best of luck to you. Stay safe.
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@wissox Indeed, it is a very talent rich area up there with NYC.
