So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?
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To me - it seems like Bill is trying to get back to a 2-big lineup but wants one athletic enough to guard. Not sure where Jalen fits on that squad.
Just throwing out how the roster is shaping up and the rumors that are floating around.
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@RockkChalkk said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I hope Jalen is in the long term plans, don’t have to be an above the rim player to be effective, ahem Perry ahem. He had some games early on where he looked like he could be a one and done. He still has a lot of eligibility left and plenty of room to continue to develop.
Agree and good news: https://twitter.com/CJMooreHoops/status/1377631985313665029
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@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
Could be a total overhaul. Don’t rule out Ochai going pro and Jalen going…somewhere else.
I just think Ochai is way to inconsistent . - -he wouldn’t land anywhere right now, lots of work to do on multiple things , BALL HANDLING taking better care of the ball , rebounding the ball better , more consistency in his shot - -just think he is - - -not ready by a bit
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@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@Fightsongwriter said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@BShark Agreed. He was below the rim far too often. Maybe Ramsey can fix that.
This young man is in the portal and from KC.
Can he shoot ?
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@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@RockkChalkk said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I hope Jalen is in the long term plans, don’t have to be an above the rim player to be effective, ahem Perry ahem. He had some games early on where he looked like he could be a one and done. He still has a lot of eligibility left and plenty of room to continue to develop.
Agree and good news: https://twitter.com/CJMooreHoops/status/1377631985313665029
thats good to know really hadn’t thought about him going anywhere but still good to know
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@jayballer67 Not a lick lol. Believe he was Jalen insurance.
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@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@jayballer67 Not a lick lol. Believe he was Jalen insurance.
lmao - -just curious cause in his hi-lite nothing but dunks lol - -question what if the dunk is not there lol
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Jalen is the player I want to come back the most. He averaged 12 and 8 as a freshman. He went for 23 and 10 against Kentucky and 16 and 13 against Texas - those teams with length. If he improves his 3-point shooting and FT shooting a little bit (33.3% and 63.0%, respectively, not bad but not great) I think he could be one of the best players in college basketball next season.
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Would like to see him become more consistent as a defender as well. Agree though his main improvements can be found as a shooter from everywhere. He got a ton of good looks from 3 and a lot of opportunities at the FT line. Left a lot of points off the board because of it. Future is bright for him
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Team Ranks:
- 155th FT% - .716
- 150th 3pt% - .342
- 121st PPG - 73.0
But I’m sure “longer and more athletic” will cure this. I think Self is starting to spin his wheels a bit.
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Been saying for months putting the ball in the basket is important.
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This was one of the worst 2 point shooting teams in Bill’s time at KU.
Which honestly is fairly related to length and athleticism. Bill is addressing things in recruiting, I’ve been pleased so far.
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It’s tough to go from Doke shooting 100% from the field to whatever Dave did this season.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
It’s tough to go from Doke shooting 100% from the field to whatever Dave did this season.
Just looked it up. 51% on 2’s for Dave. Which for a big is so, so bad considering his stratospheric usage.
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Nicely put. We knew Dave wouldn’t shoot an NCAA record but man just over 50% as a big is not acceptable either. To his credit he did score the ball a lot easier from mid to late season
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Hopefully Dave continues to improve. He was a lot of our issues but he had NO back-up so like…yeah…
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His conditioning needs to improve like Dokes did. Can’t have your 30% usage guy playing half the game
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@BeddieKU23 Hmm, I don’t want to see a huge increase in his minutes. If he can be in better shape that would be great though.
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If he can do something to help his nerves that would be good too. I think he should start smoking weed before games.
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TyTy with an ass team around him beat a Nolan Hickman led team. Really hope we can pay enough to get him.
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Probably depends on the size of the bag Pearl wants to drop
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This could just be Old Man Yelling at Cloud…
It isn’t just Self that’s starting to get to me. It is the state of modern basketball. Everyone’s offense now is 2 guys standing in a corner and the ball receiving a high screen from one of the other two guys. There is no longer much screening away from the ball. Nobody gets each other open anymore with off-ball screens and movement, it’s all just spread out and watch one guy try to break down the defense. Or Self’s version of a modern offense…the weave with guards until someone has an advantage.
Somehow coaches have all bought into the idea that spacing > movement. The biggest issue I have with it is that a very low percent of college teams have more than 2 good shooters. Again because nobody gets each other open anymore with off-ball screens and movement, slower catch and shoot kids don’t have a place. So we get stuck with Agbaji and Braun types who can “athletically hang”, but lack basketball skill.
If anyone watched the UCLA and Michigan game and thought that was good basketball then there is no point in having this discussion with me.
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@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
TyTy with an ass team around him beat a Nolan Hickman led team. Really hope we can pay enough to get him.
I get paid tomorrow maybe I can help lol
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@KirkIsMyHinrich said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
It’s tough to go from Doke shooting 100% from the field to whatever Dave did this season.
Doke would make A LOT of other Big’s across the landscape look really really bad, wouldn’t be just Dave. - See I think this was part of fans problem, we got so spoiled because of the player Doke turned out to be, and SOME again SOME just thought that would automatically carry over to Dave. - Totally different type player. Doke was a rim protector, with no range shooting the ball -big time rebounder - -where Dave better range further away from the rim. OK rebounder , could of been better, but for sure had his moments more frequent i the later part - -actually saved our ass more then once if it wern’t for him we probably would of had 2-3 more loses. Big reason Doke % was so high was because 90 % of his shots were flushes. - -David just didn’t have that kind of game not as imposing Big/Solid but still totally different player David more J’s could you see Doke shooting that % he had trying to hit outside J lmao.
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@jayballer67 said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
See I think this was part of fans problem, we got so spoiled because of the player Doke turned out to be, and SOME again SOME just thought that would automatically carry over to Dave. - Totally different type player.
Yes, and embellishing on two points:
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we were spoiled and we never got our payout for the product. Doke + Dotson et. al was spectacular and then covid fizzled everything and the let down was immense. Without the tournament, the fanbase neither experienced the ultimate satisfaction (via a NC), nor had to come to grips with any limitations on our expectations (from a heart-breaking loss).
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Dave is a completely different 5. He is built different and moves different and has totally different strengths (and weaknesses). Almost unfortunate to have such different types of bigs in succession. In fact, that was another reason why last years team was so good – having Dave back up Doke is a big transition for the defense in the middle of games. This year, when Dave came out, the replacement was not stylistically different and required little to no adjustment for the defense.
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@bskeet good points. Building for next yr.
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Yeah, he was awful, pure crap. Dave was only second in fg % for the entire season in the big 12, and first in fg % in conference games. .544 compared to 2nd place at .503.
A number of guys had higher %, but like Sims of Texas only shot about 5 times per game and didn’t qualify.
Good god, the Dave bashing just doesn’t stop.
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First 10 games Dave- 38%, Next 10- 55%, Last 8- 58%. Improved a lot over the season
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@mayjay said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
Yeah, he was awful, pure crap. Dave was only second in fg % for the entire season in the big 12, and first in fg % in conference games. .544 compared to 2nd place at .503.
A number of guys had higher %, but like Sims of Texas only shot about 5 times per game and didn’t qualify.
Good god, the Dave bashing just doesn’t stop.
I hear ya, for some People Dave was an easy target to rip , like I said to spoiled from Doke - but bottom line was just a totally different player Different make up - - different build Dave could for sure get out in space much more and showed that he could hit from further distance , now true maybe some ill advised timing at times on shot selection but never the less was in the game.
Coach Self just didn’t pull it out his ass when he was asked who the most improved player during the off season was from last year and he responded Dave McCormack HANDS DOWN , not even close. But it’s ok buddy everyone has an opinion and is entitled to that opinion just like you and me Dave is fine.
ONE thing I do know Dave saved our ass enough , thats for sure because there was games if it wern’t for him we wouldn’t even had a sno balls chance in hell to win the game cause he was carrying the team, more then one 18 point halves till the others pulled their heads out their ass and started to play - there is not one guy on this team you couldn’t pick apart if you really wanted to - just easy to go after Dave - -it’s all good
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@mayjay Oh come on haha.
You had to disqualify - Sims (135 FGA), Boone (176 FGA), Samuel (160 FGA), Bradford (145 FGA), Jones (143 FGA), Tchatchoua (123 FGA), Ledee (91 FGA), Kuath (118 FGA), Santos-Silva (192 FGA), and Davion Mitchell (283 FGA) to get Dave to be 2nd place behind Solomon Young (190 FGA) who would be 11th and Dave 12th in Field Goal Percentage.
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So for some perspective on Dave, here are the field goal percentages of some other recent KU big men:
- Raef LaFrentz - 55.5%
- Nick Collison - 56.2%
- Wayne Simien 55.8%
- Darrell Arthur - 54.1%
- Jeff Withey - 56.5%
- Joel Embiid - 62.6%
- Udoka Azubuike - 74.6%
- Cole Aldrich - 57.4%
- Darnell Jackson - 58.0%
- Landen Lucas - 61.2%
- Cliff Alexander - 56.6%
- Cheick Diallo - 56.9%
- Jamari Traylor - 53.2%
- Marcus Morris - 55.5%
- Markieff Morris - 55.3%
- Greg Ostertag - 55.0%
- Julian Wright - 55.5%
- Sasha Kaun - 56.8%
- Perry Ellis - 50.8%
- Eric Chenowith - 45.4%
- And finally Dave McCormack, who shot 51.5% from the field this season.
A few things here. Eric Chenowith sucks. Perry Ellis shot 130 3-pointers at Kansas. If you take those away, his field goal percentage goes up to about 52%. And Ellis was like a 3/4, Dave is not. So pretty much the only big man that I looked at who Dave shot better than was Eric Chenowith. Most of the other guys were around 55% or better from the field. So a reasonable expectation for Dave next season I think is to get his field goal percentage up to around 55%. One more thing to add, Dave is actually by percentage the best free-throw shooter of all of these guys listed (At Kansas - Joel Embiid is shooting 86% from the line in the NBA), so it would be good if he got to the line more than 3.6 times per game. So that’s what I want from Dave next season: field goal percentage up around 55% and more trips to the line.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich I think it can happen. But his usage will have to go down.
Dave taking 10 shots is just not a functional offense. (And that is nothing against Dave).
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The biggest issue imo is that he had no back-up. We’ve thrown enough numbers at it that I’m confident Bill will figure something out.
He talked to a lot of D2 coaches he trusts before taking Cam. Lots of former KU guys coaching that level not just Boschee at his school but he played against Ballard’s Bods and there is another I am forgetting…
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Biggus Davus needs to learn to shot fake and draw fouls. He can score easily from the free throw line, and get the other team’s bigs in foul trouble. Win win.
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So, I’m in the camp that Dave was pretty good as a back up to Doke in 20, and was much improved in 21 as a starter, but that improvement was masked by the circumstances. If he improves as much between 21 and 22 as he did from 20 to 21, then he will be excellent.
I love the stats that @KirkIsMyHinrich provided, but my guess is that those are either the final season (which would likely be their best) or their career stats (which would still include their final, best season).
My contention is that Dave’s best season is ahead of him.
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Career stats. Dave’s career is 53.7%, which would still put him near the bottom of the list.
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@BigBad said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
This could just be Old Man Yelling at Cloud… It isn’t just Self that’s starting to get to me. It is the state of modern basketball. Everyone’s offense now is 2 guys standing in a corner and the ball receiving a high screen from one of the other two guys. There is no longer much screening away from the ball. Nobody gets each other open anymore with off-ball screens and movement, it’s all just spread out and watch one guy try to break down the defense. Or Self’s version of a modern offense…the weave with guards until someone has an advantage. Somehow coaches have all bought into the idea that spacing > movement. The biggest issue I have with it is that a very low percent of college teams have more than 2 good shooters. Again because nobody gets each other open anymore with off-ball screens and movement, slower catch and shoot kids don’t have a place. So we get stuck with Agbaji and Braun types who can “athletically hang”, but lack basketball skill. If anyone watched the UCLA and Michigan game and thought that was good basketball then there is no point in having this discussion with me.
Watch Gonzaga for a bit and your faith may be restored. The USC game was a clinic. Very nice to watch the screening and cutting and ball movement. The whole thing was a ballet.
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I am concerned about next year, to be honest. I think we are going in the wrong direction.
Jalen Wilson is most effective as a stretch 4 or a small ball 5, where he can use his quickness and ball handling against slower, bigger guys. When Self went away from that, Wilson’s production fell. Moving him to the 3 would eliminate his MUA and he would be an average or so player at that spot.
KU needs more athleticism on the perimeter, not less. They need more versatility. I don’t see that right now coming in. That’s going to make next season very similar to this one. Maybe we have to go through these two seasons to clear out some of this, but I don’t see things improving from this year right now.
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@justanotherfan Can’t see Self moving Jalen to the 3.
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@justanotherfan said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I am concerned about next year, to be honest. I think we are going in the wrong direction.
Jalen Wilson is most effective as a stretch 4 or a small ball 5, where he can use his quickness and ball handling against slower, bigger guys. When Self went away from that, Wilson’s production fell. Moving him to the 3 would eliminate his MUA and he would be an average or so player at that spot.
KU needs more athleticism on the perimeter, not less. They need more versatility. I don’t see that right now coming in. That’s going to make next season very similar to this one. Maybe we have to go through these two seasons to clear out some of this, but I don’t see things improving from this year right now.
Jalen Wilson is not now, not will he ever be a 3 at the college or NBA level. The man is simply not quick enough to play that position on either end of the floor. He’ll, he routinely got abused by other 4’s on defense and you think moving him to the 3 spot is going to help?
Defense is going to be KU’s biggest problem next year as only Harris and Agbaji are above average defenders right now. Everyone else is somewhere between average and bad. Bryce Thompson has a chance to emerge as a good defender, but that remains to be seen if it’ll happen. McCormack is below average because of his lack of quickness, same with Jalen Wilson. Mitch Lightfoot is the best interior defender, but his lack of size limits his effectiveness. Jalen Wilson and Christian Braun are liabilities on defense.
Out of the new people coming in, Pettis is the only one with the reputation of being a solid defender. Adams is in the same league as Wilson as far as athleticism which is below average and the HS competition he faced in Texas was crappy at best. Zach Clemence is Perry Ellis 2.0 which means shit defense with minimal rebounding ability for a kid his size. Sydney Curry has the potential, but he needs to take advantage of being able to redshirt and slim down so he can be quick enough to play either post spot. The big man we just got from Missouri Southern makes David McCormack look like Ochai Agbaji by comparison.
Next year is going to be better offensively, but will also likely be Self’s worst defensive team ever at KU.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 justanotherfan was saying to NOT move Jalen to the 3.
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@BShark I wasn’t disagreeing with him. I was reinforcing his point.
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Expect a full offseason for the guys returning to be a big one with the S & C program. Jalen went home and improved on his own last year. I’m expecting he could make another leap with a coach pushing him all summer. Harris & Thompson are two others I think we can expect leaps from.
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Harris needs to, but he is so small I don’t know how much we should expect.
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@BeddieKU23 I am hoping we see big things from Bryce next season.
Realistically I think we want to see CB end up the super sub. I know guys don’t lose starting spots often under Self, but I’m hoping this one is an exception.
Ideally:
- PG: TyTy 15/ Harris 15/ Pettiford 10
- SG: Bryce 25/ TyTy 10/ Pettiford 5
- SF - Ochai 28/ CB 12
- PF - Wilson 25/ Martin 8/ CB 7
- C - Dave 25 / Clemence 10 / Adams 5
Minutes totals:
- Tyty - 25
- Bryce - 25
- Ochai - 28
- CB - 19
- Dave - 25
- Jalen - 25
- Harris - 15
- Pettiford - 15
- Clemence 10
- KJ - 5
- Martin - 8
That’s a pretty deep rotation. I think when it got later in conference and definitely come tourney time you would see basically no minutes from one of the 3 bigs between KJ, Martin and Clemence. And then probably one of either Pettiford or Harris would get almost no run.
CB really thrived his freshman year in that lesser role, I think that is what we want to see.
Ochai was more consistent than this board would lead you to believe. And if he improves at all that would be fantastic.
If we don’t land TyTy I think we will see us go after a transfer who is a sniper to bring off the bench in a very Isaiah Moss/Brannen Green type of role. And you’ll see a dogfight between Harris and Pettiford for that starting spot.
Ideally someone takes a big leap forward this offseason. Dave, Bryce, or Ochai if I were guessing to be the most likely. CB could do it. Jalen still has room to grow. The Martin dude could surprise I think.
One thing is becoming clear to me though - Bill wants to get back to 2 posts and 2 guard lineups. I think there is plenty of PT to be had for Harris, Pettiford and another PG. The team went from overloaded on wings to a much more traditional construct which is nice to see.
If this does indeed end up being the final roster - I think you will see a more traditional Bill Self type of pace than this past year was. The offense should be more efficient. The defense should be about the same. I thought Dave made a big stride from a basketball IQ point later in the season and so I do expect him to have a better start to the season next year.
All in all, I think this team will be much better. Especially now that they should have a little bit better ball movement by 1. always having a PG on the floor, and 2. adding the ability to play 2 PGs at once which Bill has really done well with in the past as far as generating offense.
I’m pretty excited for this bunch. Even if they don’t land TyTy.
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@BShark Not even sure we need him to improve. But 10 minutes a game with him doing what he was doing there at the end of the season will be great. Part of what made him stand out last season was that he had skills nobody else did. About the only guy on the whole offense who could pass the ball.
Ideally that shouldn’t be the case next year… But he can help to bridge the gap and let Bill play 2 PGs the entire game if he truly wants to.
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@Kcmatt7 KU absolutely needs Dajuan Harris to improve big time in two areas for him to be able to play the starter level minutes he’s probably going to play next season. The most important area by far is his decision making. Harris had a turnover rate of over 28% last year. That will not cut it next season with what’s already shaping up to be a terrible defensive team.
The second thing Harris needs to do is up his aggressive and look to score a lot more. Harris showed an ability to score and shoot very well. Harris can absolutely be a guy that be a 15-5 type player while shooting 40%+ from 3.
The development of Dajuan Harris into an alpha type player and embracing that role is going to be the biggest factor in how good Kansas is next season.
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I’m predicting starters next year are: Pettiford Agbaji Thompson Wilson McCormack
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As long as Agbaji returns I’m expecting that battle between Bryce Thompson and Christian Braun for a starting spot to be very competitive. The signing of Pettiford is really important for building quality depth and development
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@RockkChalkk said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I’m predicting starters next year are: Pettiford Agbaji Thompson Wilson McCormack
KU’s in trouble next year if Pettiford is starting next season over Harris. There’s a reason why Pettiford is ranked as low as he is and that’s because he has a lot holes in his game at this point. He has the tools and foundation to develop into a very good PG. Freshmen PG’s struggle in Self’s system because there’s a lot to it. Dotson absolutely struggled at times a a freshman and was much more prepared coming in than Pettiford is. Harris is entering his 3rd year in the program. Harris is much closer than Pettiford to being able to run Self’s system.
Pettiford will be very good at KU, but his best role as a freshman will be backing up Harris.
