Brannen Greene
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@AsadZ Do you really know what transpired in that meeting?
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We have no idea what transpired during the previous meetings or conversations between Greene and Self. How many times have we heard the sideline reporters or whomever is calling the game take 10-15 seconds and report to the viewers that Self describes Greene as the best pure shooter he has ever coached? Riddle me this… how is best pure shooter Self has ever coached struggle to see the court?
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My biggest issue with Greene is his that he does not follow and react to people’s hips and just lets guards dribble right by him. That said, I still prefer him to Wayne Selden because he gives us rebounding and a more reliable trey. Now, maybe Wayne has more “leadership” qualities like being a nice guy, but given the lack of progression by both players, I would rather see Greene on the floor more than Wayne. Put Greene, Vick and Graham as the 3 guards, and I think you have an excellent rotation option as Vick and Greene can balance each other on both ends of the floor.
As far as Self goes, I’m really worried. Last year, I was impressed with how much we bounced back during the regular season, and I attribute that to Self. But we may actually get worse this season without Diallo, despite Ellis looking much quicker. (People are underestimating the impact that Oubre had on this team as a two way threat.)
I disagree with Jessie Newell on the 3 point shooting aspect. The real issue is the apparent lack of freedom with which we play when confronted with something new. We pass around the perimeter on defense and drive right into charges or blocks on offense. The threat of the pass, steal or block are minimal. We look boring and unable to improvise.
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@wissoxfan83 I don’t know exactly but I have an idea. I still blame the coach. The kid deserves to play. He is doing a disservice to KU BB program by his adamant nature. Not letting him go to Maui is a significant penalty, totally unjustified. Greene’s parents should take the matter with the authorities. Its time for Self to go.
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There is a way to go about talking about playing time.
Go into his office, have a personal discussion on what needs to happen to get more playing time. Openly disrespecting the coach in front of players means lack a maturity.
I assume most of you read the book about past players and what they said about their time at KU under Self. Players were open and honest about what went on. Self is not a stranger to managing personalities.
A message had to be sent that HE is the one that manages PT. Be an adult about it. I am all for Self’s suspension.
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@JhawkAlum Coach Self does manage playing time and I think he’s screwing it up. Now more than ever, I attribute our big losses exclusively to him. He recruits players, coaches them up or not, and dictates style of play, and adjusts personnel / strategy to onging developments.
Last years loss to Kenucky was embarrassing, but they were a most talented team with summer playing (like we had this year). This years loss to MSU despite MSU’s ranking is unacceptable. I personally think Coach negligently did not adjust personnel and strategy to close that game. He kept the horses in that weren’t getting the job done. BG frustrated, Hunter M most likely frustrated, and as a fan, I’m frustrated. Seldon’ has played sub-par most of his career here and yet seems immune to accountability.
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@Bwag we are in agreement. Self screwing up PT isn’t the issue but the suspension. It’s going about it in a disrespectful way.
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I actually thought BG played decent in the last game. It seemed like his defense had shown some improvement. I’m not saying it was necessarily good defense, but it looked better. At least he is working on it.
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@RockkChalkk agreed. He’s looked more active.
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@JhawkAlum don’t disagree depending on what happened, which I don’t know. But it IS STILL on Coach Self that he’s creating an atmosphere and team dynamic that pushes players who should be playing to distraction with his irrational approach. Sure the players behavior may dictate the discipline, but when you, as the coach, have gotten to that point with players in the locker room that it comes to having to discipline like this, you’ve lost the war even though as Coach/Leader, you’ll always win the battle because you have all the power.
@HighEliteMajor perfecty laid out the argument against Self’s mis-aligned basketball paradigm in his most recent posting.
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Go back and watch the game. When Greene goes out of the game at 5:56 left in 2nd half he jaws at the coaches while seated. They all seemed to ignore him at the time. Obviously this carried over into the locker room. You just can’t do this as a player. Having said that if I was a shooter who wasn’t the greatest athlete I would opt not to play for Bill Self. He is fine with having a great defender hurt the teams offensive chemistry but would never allow a bad defender to play through. Shooters need more time than he gives to get into the rhythm of the game.
I’m not in the fire Bill Self camp, not even close. I just wish he gave shooters on the team more leash.
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For how long can we continue with this frustration, game after game, season after season, its getting sickening.
The book has been written on Self and the chapters cannot be erased. Time to move on.
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@AsadZ We’ll miss you. Who you gonna cheer for now?
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Why would anyone want Greene gone? I understand the emotion of the loss, the emotion of his suspension but lobbying for him gone, jeez holds your horses guys. If Self thought what transpired deserved being kicked off the team it would have happened. 6 games sends a message especially when you miss the trip to Maui and you miss the opportunities to play better, get better.
Do I think 6 games is too much, maybe but it certainly gives him the final chance to learn from his mistakes. I certainly believe he had a legitimate gripe about his playing time but emotion of the situation got the best of both of them. Neither of them was going to rationally argue about playing time right after that loss. It would have been better had it not happened then, Greene probably avoids a suspension all together.
I’ve been guilty of jumping off the ledge way too fast in the past but we should all be hoping Greene truly learns from this mistake. We really do need him, you can’t replace the shooting he brings and no matter your opinion of him I’d rather have him than not, it would be a huge loss to this team if he doesn’t stick it out, doesn’t learn from his mistakes. Jamari has been suspended every year here as well, its not like he is a lone in having to learn. Sometimes kids are just thickheaded and have to learn through continuous punishment. We shouldn’t give up just yet.
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At least Greene kept it in house and didn’t take it to the media after the MSU loss like the RB from OSU did.
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@BeddieKU23 We’ve all been hard on Coach Self for not giving BG enough freedom to play and help KU win games. We’ve been hard on him for playing Traylor and Lucas, who are not as good, over Bragg and Mick.
Under the current circumstances maybe we should lighten up towards Coach Self. He has been upset with the Diallo situation and quite possibly that has affected his judgement for making in game adjustments and letting his guys play like they did in July. Maybe all this extra stress with the Diallo situation has made it harder than we realize for Coach Self to be his best also.
I expect Diallo to be cleared any freekin time now. If he isnt cleared monday before the game then I expect KU might play him anyways. They have a S***load of ammo to bring to bear against the NCAA. Major actionable case type stuff.
Maybe once Diallo is cleared. Coach will have the rebounder he needs, therefore opening up the floor for Bragg and Mick to do what they do. There is no evidence to support playing Traylor and Lucas over Mickelson and Bragg except on the rebounding areas. That gets fixed, I think Traylor and Lucas will play less.
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This is certainly a stressful time for coach. I’m sure all of this has been a nightmare to deal with. I just thought us fans would stick behind our players instead of pushing them away. If Greene sticks it out and turns it around its going to be to our benefit as fans and for the team.
I understand Greene has done stupid stuff and we all have our opinions of his play and his character. If 6 games doesn’t hit home then I’ll believe he should be gone.
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@dylans Thanks. I am a die hard KU BB fan and will always be but I am tired of seeing KU program going downhill and injustice to KU players at the hands of our HC
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@AsadZ They fired Mangino and Ted Owens. Both those issues have been addressed.
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If I was told when Roy abbandoned KU for UNC that KU would be able to hire a coach that would allow the team to finish top 2 in the Big 12 every year, would make the Jayhawks a top 15 team every year, and would win a National Championship (or more). I wouldn’t turn him away.
Which coach that KU could have hired in that time frame that could’ve done the same or more?
Bill has his warts, but who doesn’t? Coach K is the best coach in America, but I don’t want him. Coach Cal is the best recruiter in America, but I don’t want him either. I feel that Bill represents the University as well as anyone can.
I wish I spent as much time in practice watching the team play as many of the posters on this site do. It’s quite clear they have a better feel for how playing time should be dispensed than the coach.
I too am disappointed by less than perfection, but I realize that it is college kids trying to execute a plan drawn out by one of the 50 best coaches in the world. I too have college interns that I must train every summer for help. It sucks. Kids don’t want to work. They aren’t prepared to work. And their parents will usually enable them to be worthless. It takes me all year to whip them into shape and then the most promising ones don’t come back (dang OADs) but you’ve got to take the help you can recruit and run with it.
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@BeddieKU23 I think you missed that @AsadZ want’s Self gone, not Greene.
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@dylans I guess when KU has another early exit after somehow winning the Big 12 and getting a high seed you will remain happy & content in that HCBS did it in his way
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@dylans I don’t buy the practice thing…last couple years I was fine taking the “let’s enjoy the process” line when we were very, very young. This year, Self doesn’t get that level of room to operate. We’re experienced, we’re talented, and we got a Summer to get a jump start on the rest of the college bball world.
It was squandered against a depleted MSU team and the things we thought Self learned this Summer are no where to be seen. What we do see is the same type of decion-making that has been our archilles heel year in - year out.
Yes, one game, but him tinkering within his system, making what is evidently poor player personnel and scheme decisions made this one loss decisive. No free pass this year.
#FreeHunter #FreeGreene
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@Bwag Very well said
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I totally understand the KU has a bunch of spoiled fans sentiment.
One loss…I wonder what MSU message boards sounded like last year after they lost to KU at home?
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@dylans Tom Izzo was very much interested in the KU job in 2003 and was the second choice had Self decided to stay at Illinois. Given his track record, I don’t think many people would’ve minded him patrolling the sideline in AFH. KU was and still is a program that will attract the elite of the elite coaching prospects because KU is a top 5 job in the country.
As for MSU fans reactions to losing to KU in ORLANDO last year, they weren’t freaking out because Izzo regularly loses some early season contests and his teams get better from those losses. That’s been Izzo’s history for 20 years so when it happens, it’s not a big deal.
As for why people are mad about KU losing to MSU, it has nothing to do with MSU. They’re a top 15 team and will be very good again this year. People are mad because Self said he learned a lot from the WUG, but he hasn’t changed at all and the biggest culprits in that loss are the same issues KU has had for the past 2 years that lead to first weekend losses on the NCAA tournament.
When someone says they’ve learned to adapt to a new style, but when they’re feet are put to the fire and revert back to their old ways, people are going to feel mad about being fed a load of crap and buying into Self’s statements of change.
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Its not just about one game. Its about how things have been going on for the past 2 plus years. Its about not playing your best players. Its about punishing deserving players from getting PT. Its about continuing to force players to play in a way that is against their strengths. Its about my way or the highway attitude. Its about continued early losses in the tourney. Its about recruiting failures. The list goes on.
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A sad Z
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I’m not saying this is Self… but I’ve been wondering if some coaches have become extremely envious of their own players.
Think about it for a second…
Andrew Wiggins is just a kid. He has only been out in the “real world” for 18 months and he is probably worth 5-10 times more money than the very best D1 coach makes and has saved.
Egos are a huge part of any sports.
Just makes me wonder.
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@drgnslayr maybe fans
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Crimson Yes, I am feeling sad especially for Greene
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@dylans Thanks man, maybe, just maybe AsadZ was in Chicago hitting that same blunt, man some people adios AsadZ they can use people like you down in Cowtown, good luck in postseason any kind of post season, that statement of getting rifd of self is about like me saying I’m going to be the next president
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@BeddieKU23 six games is NOT to much. This is Greene 3rd time in 3 years if he were on a lot of other teams his butt would be OUT. he needs to learn how to grow the hell up, quite throwing tantrums and acting like a junior high JV player instead of trying to be mature and be part of this team. Everytime he acts out and pulls a bone head move skipping class, late for practices, talking smack to the coach. There is a way to go about your frustration & it is sure not out on the floor during the game OR in the locker room in front of your team mates that your pretty much calling out saying your better then they are. You take it to the office with Coach and talk one on one not on the floor. What did he really think he was going to accomplish by doing this during the game? Maybe coach saying OH OK Greene your right my bad go ahead go back and check in, Hell trade me clothes give me your uniform I’ll play and you coach YA ok how’s that working for ya holy crap
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Is part of adapting to a new style, help me out- - -it the so called new style now is that part of that new style where you guards your pint and your 2 is that include where they drive wild and blind down the lane, over penetrate nad have no where to go where the result is a blocked shot a turnover or a wild fling up over there head? OR is it where they can throw it out and let our guys clang another 3pt shot attempt up off the rim, OR is a part of this new style a former two guard moved to the three and he is now an Animal on the backboards just terrorizing the opponents from his rebounding? Help me out clear it up so I can appreciate this new system- - this new style that’s surpose to be such a devastating offense
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My wish is (not bashing HCBS) that in the future HCBS will stay away from recruiting sharp shooting 3 point shooting assassins like Greene/White. He doesn’t use them and doesn’t value their craft. It would save me a lot of heart ache.
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@DoubleDD Not to mention Frankamp
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Why recruit players like White, Greene, Svi, CF, Galindo if we aren’t going to use their talents. KU needs to focus their recruiting efforts on players that actually fit the system. Stop going after the cream of the crop because they’re the best and instead get guys that are the best high low ballers. The Big12 football coaches don’t recruit smash mouth players because the Big12 is an air it out conference. So why does KUMBB go after three ballers when it’s fools gold?!? Next time I beg that Self passes on that highly touted sharp shooter and saves us the misery of watching them ride the pine.
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@Kip_McSmithers remember it works both ways, the players know selfs system when they sign. We had some pretty good wings, but then again I don’t think coach dislikes the 3.
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To be fair HCBS said himself that shooting the 3 is fools gold. I wonder how Greene/White/Conner felt when they heard that?
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@DoubleDD Exactly. Sending wrong message to the players. Self needs to be held accountable.
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@DoubleDD That’s a fair point…why recruit 3 pt shooters if you are not going to use them. I would imagine, however, that Self explained to these guys that they would have to play D, etc, in order to earn playing time.
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@AsadZ We don’t know what went on with Greene, so we can’t really judge whether 6 games is fair or not. What if Greene was screaming, threatening, throwing things, swearing at the coach? We don’t know. As others have pointed out, it must have been pretty bad for his parents to be involved. You are entitled to your opinion (that’s what this site is for) and I feel your pain on the early exits…I do. But, don’t you think Self’s track record, overall, is awfully good, to be wanting another coach? At least see what this team does in the tournament?
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@DoubleDD said:
To be fair HCBS said himself that shooting the 3 is fools gold. I wonder how Greene/White/Conner felt when they heard that?
Only Greene was a part of the KU roster when Self said this last February. AW3 was in Lincoln for over a semester and CF was already at WSU for a little over a month.
Just sayin it only affected one of those three. I’m sure Greene, Selden, Mason and Svi were all a little taken back by it as they were hitting this shots and to a point so was Perry
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@Hawk8086 I agree that Self has been a great coach. He has won a lot of games although I do believe that he has benefited from playing mostly in AFH where home crowd is a big X factor that has helped his winning %.
I do not dislike him. Actually I like him a lot. I used to show his work to my children as an inspiration. What I am trying to point out is that over the last 2-3 years things have not been the same. Losses are increasing. We are exiting the tourney early to inferior teams. Recruiting misses are increasing and what’s most frustrating is how Self is continuing to mismanage the talent. He has talent in the team. The team has experience. But he continues to force his philosophy on the players that is working against their talent. Why recruit players like AW3, Greene, CF when you don’t use their arsenal and send wrong message to them by using comments like Fools Gold. I am sure you can understand what I am saying here. He continues to put a square peg through a round hole. The other issue with Self is that he is not good at coaching during the games. He is either not capable or refuses to make changes during the game based on the situation at hand. As such he is getting outcoached more & more. He refuses to learn from his mistakes. After the WUG he made a comment to the effect that I learned a lot here, and I was really encouraged that he will make some changes to his style. But so far it has been the same old Self.
In summary while he has a great track record at KU the recent body of work is on the wrong track and I believe that he is losing the edge, and don’t forget that he gets paid a lot of money.
Is it unfair to ask for accountability?
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@Crimsonorblue22 said “… but then again I don’t think coach dislikes the 3.”
Parsing words.
How about “disdain” instead of “dislike”?
Disdain: the feeling that someone or something is unworthy of one’s consideration or respect; contempt.
That’s the right word.
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@HighEliteMajor as I said, I, meaning me, do not think coach dislikes the 3. You use your own words for your own thoughts.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Well, whether you like it or not, or disdain it or not, if I think your words might be wrong, I might decide to reply.
That is unless you, like coach Self, are beyond reproach.
And, as usual, only sniping and cute little responses vs. substance. But to each their own.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yea it does work both ways but Self and Co offer the scholarships to these kids that don’t fit in to his preferred system. If they didn’t target square pegs and then offer them the scholarships there wouldn’t be one to accept. And you’re right, Greene and White should have known better but the effects of KU offering you a scholarship has to cloud your judgement
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@Kip_McSmithers This isn’t just directed to you, but I’ve seen similar posts from several other people where the premise is that these very good shooters should not have chosen KU and its in part their fault that they aren’t getting the playing time they want. Wasn’t Bmac a similar mold to these guys? Wasn’t he the man when Greene chose KU? I don’t fault the recruits at all. Not to mention we have no clue what line they were fed by the recruiters. Its very reasonable to think that Greene could have been told his game is similar to Ben’s and led him to believe that they would use him in the same way.
I don’t understand how the offense ran so well for Bmac by getting him always involved in the offense but now we don’t come anywhere close to doing the same for even better shooters (according to Self). Mystifying.
