Putting things in context
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I believe this team is more capable of winning a championship than more than half of the teams Self has had here.
And i also think you guys know it and nobody has really given up believing, despite all the handwringing.
Close losses to good teams is not going to keep us out of the post season. Maybe our recent football season has conditioned us to be a little more reactionary to such losses.
I don’t care about the conference any more (unless we claw our way back), I just want to play the right guys, gel, and be dangerous in March.
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Yes indeed. March is the goal now. Lots of our exciting conference championships? I really don’t remember them except we won 14 or 15 in a row. Maybe if I looked back I’d say oh yes, I remember that game that won us the championship.
But March Madness games? I honestly can remember nearly every end to the season back to when I came to KU. One example. Peacock had the Badgers and UCLA and the announcer was Darren Collison. Maybe an unfamiliar name to many but he destroyed us as a member of UCLA in 2007. We played the Bruins and it was a frustrating end to the season in the elite 8. I was watching the game and kept thinking this announcer is decidedly pro Bruin. Figured out who it was and then the memories came flooding back. It’s like that every tournament back to 80’s. Glenn Robinson, Lamar Odom, Laettner, Freaking Bill Self and Illinois in 2001 beat us. GTech in 2004 OT, the killer B’s in 05-06, MSU in 09. Farakmush in 10, Shaka in 11, Unibrow, meltdown in 13, and then a bunch of bad losses to the likes of Stanford and Wichita and Nova, and Bama and USC and Arkansas, and Auburn and Oregon and wow. The memories are all there. The only good memory of those losses? 2012 because we exceeded expectations and made it all the way to the championship. 1991 fits in that category too, but wow, hated losing to Duke that’s for sure.
So this team has the ability to go a long ways and in a wacky tournament could well make a FF. It would be nice to make it past the round of 32!
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I will never stop rooting and believing they can win a championship but it’s really so far from reality with this team
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@BeddieKU23 so…uh…why do you want to believe something that’s so far from reality?
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We root for a mythical bird
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@approxinfinity said in Putting things in context:
We root for a mythical bird[…]
…or a Civil War band of vigilantes waging war on slavers. That might be more relevant now than it was when we all attended!
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What the hell is this I’m the only negative person odd….
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@kjayhawks go to bed homey! Lol. I gotta pack lunches .
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@approxinfinity … that rises from its ashes and flourishes once again…. Oh, sorry! Wrong mythical bird.
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@approxinfinity Ha, is that mythical bird named Devin Neal or Danny Manning by chance lmao
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I see it the same.
We all get frustrated with this team. We see moments of solid play, then a lot of ho-hum basketball. This team lacks consistency on so many levels.
I know we botched the Houston game. That was frustrating, but didn’t bother me too much. I saw lots of solid play and against a true Top 5 team.
This UCF game frustrated me more. I know we live and die on Juan, and that was obvious in this game. Our defense was ridiculous. If we do that one time in March we go home.
I still see a big lack of toughness. Maybe we need more leadership. Maybe we need an alpha player to step forward. This idea of “leadership through committee” has never been something I totally embrace.
Flory and Zeke keep me excited! We need more from other players. ALL other players.
Will we have a good March? Seriously… I have absolutely no clue. I do believe we will need a lot of luck to make it too far.
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@drgnslayr sadly, i think “leadership by committee” may be caused by our longest tenured starters not being our best offensive players in a system that is complex enough that it causes less tenured players to defer to said lesser stars.
I will say Selfs championship teams and runner up all had elements of leadership by committee but the best offensive players were some of the most tenured.
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I think the more you have to assemble the pieces and parts, the harder it becomes if your leaders arent your best scorers, it is a logical default people can rally behind.
And when you bring in a bunch of “defense optional” scoring transfers, that confuses the situation all the more.
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Transfers know it all, don’t want to be led. The young rooks always praise the seniors.
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@drgnslayr Two questions about this. -Do we have a TRUE leader ?–Then I don’t we have a dog.
Frank Mason was a true definition of a Dog— - Christan Braun I would consider a Dog , Devonte is was more of a Dog then anything we have now.-- For me though FRANK was " the dog "
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@SlimShaddy54 Flory could be leader with time, but is quickly becoming dog. When he went up against Big Ern you could read his body language “I’m going to kick this guys ass” and he did.
I don’t know if bigs can be leaders though, at least alone, in the modern era. Need guard leadership.
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I predict a double double for Dajuan and Flory Saturday.
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I feel like this team is for sure missing an alpha dog. The best teams I’ve played or coached on had them they held the team to a high standard. I think this year, last year and 2019 are the only teams in memory that haven’t had it.
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Bill has given up completely on offense and thinks the only way we can win is defense so be prepared as kj is going to play a lot
We can’t beat isu, houston, bama, uk, Florida, auburn any top 10 team in the tournament playing in the 50’s. Those teams will all score more than that and our defense is mid against them because it’s slanted based on the unathletic teams we play and dominate. During that stretch isu scored 74 on us and it felt like they could have easily score 80 had their tall shooter had played
https://247sports.com/college/kansas/article/bill-self-kansas-basketball-team-outlook-245007240/
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There is so much involved in being a real team leader. In some ways, Juan is the guy. He is our player best connected to Self. That counts. Lots of the leadership happens off the court. Making sure the players stay in line in their free time. Being there for them when they get sick. Etc. etc.
Being demonstrative is a HUGE asset! We need more visible enthusiasm. Also need someone reading defenses and directing traffic, on both sides of the ball. Juan is too mellow at this.
@approxinfinity Not sure our floor general has to lead in scoring… but it sure helps tremendously if it is a player who can go get his shot any time he wants. Sometimes… we need a basket desperately, and if that player could just wave everyone out of the way and take his man and score, it would be a big help.
2022 was a wild year! We had many alphas! Ochai finally learned to be more alpha, Christian was probably born and alpha, and Wilson had no problem taking over games! Even with all that… in the final moments for the Championship, Big Dave came to the rescue! I loved that team!
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@Crimsonorblue22 never thought about it before but the past tense of lead is led, so if you say “they dont want to be lead” is that a grammatical issue or a spelling issue? Crazy that led is a homophone of lead the mineral but also the past tense of lead the verb.
English man, crazy shit.
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@approxinfinity My English is a disaster. At least I can say, “Not bad for my second language!” I can say that. I can also lie. lol
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Is Juan going to play Tomorrow? We have seen enough of our players and at this point they are going to have to do it every game and pick up someone like Zeke if he doesn’t get 20+. We will see if they play hard on D and on the boards. Our stats show we are a top tier team. As we said we are either going to take a step up or stay on hold. I think reading these posts no one really loves this team or think it will get on enough of a roll to change some minds.
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@Zabudda From what I’ve heard, he’s going to play.
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@approxinfinity Now that you’ve noticed, you’ll see it a lot. Pb gets used as a past tense verb all the time.
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@drgnslayr Since moving north of the border I’ve become bilingual. I can now speak both Canadian and American.
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@tundrahok Alors on peut parler avec le joual mon chum!
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@Jhawk69 Sorry, not that kind of Canadian.
Merely anglophone
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@tundrahok eh?
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“Flory and Shak didn’t score today. And at least the other two at least the lid was off the basket a little bit. So yeah, that wasn’t a real difficult decision.”
We are doomed. KJ had 6 points but the lid was off lol.
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Bill has lost his mind.
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For someone who has hung his hat on having elite defenses through the years he has a pretty myopic interpretation of impact on the game.
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If Bill Self loses to KSU next weekend he should fired immediately. 3-3 vs Tang should be the last straw
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@kjayhawks said in Putting things in context:
If Bill Slef loses to KSU next weekend he should fired immediately. 3-3 vs Tang should be the last straw
lol okay stahp. It’s one season
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@Kcmatt7 definitely isn’t one season it’s been 3 we have underperformed. Self just doesn’t have it anymore
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@kjayhawks I feel like the grace period after a natty is 5 years minimum.
Two Nattys may honestly have earned you a lifetime hand it up when you’re done.
When you become the winningest coach in KUBB history, I feel like maybe you’ve earned going out on your own terms.
Jmo
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Been hearing a lot lately that at one point or another this Season that Every single rotational player,- --guys who play-- not walk on’s but rest oWell guess it’s been one of those days.
other teams should be embarrasses , not letting KU off the hook but other examples just ABOUT AS BAD.
The # 3 ranked team in the Nation Iowa State just manhandled by K/State on their home floor where they had the Nations 2nd longest homecourt winning streak and K/State pretty much controlled that game from start to finish winning by 19. K/STATE a bottom dweller with the win 4-6 in Conf and now 11-11 on the year- kicks ISU ass
Coach Cal brings his Arkansas team into Rupp- - Arkansas 12-8 on the yr 1-6 in the SEC and beats the hell out of Kentucky by like 14 I think Kentucky ranked 12 in the Nation and 15-5 on the year and 4-2 in SEC and Arkansas whips their ass in Rupp.
And to a much lesser degree but still a costly loss losing on your home floor with the Nations longest home court winning streak Houston going down to Tech
By far not an excuse but just saying there were some embarrassing loses today Kentucky, & Iowas St on their home floors
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@Kcmatt7 I wish I felt the same way I’m just absolutely disgusted in Selfs decision making the last few years. This program headed down in a bad way. I’m hearing Peterson is now having second thoughts about coming and for the record I don’t blame him one bit. I would steer clear of this place if I was him. I’m just scratching my head as to why you would build a 20 point lead with Flory and Rylen then set them down for most of the next half. At this point KJ is the worst multiple year starter in the Self era and Juan is the worst PG.
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@Kcmatt7 sadly it’s an easy fix…. Play your best players not the ones that you have a better personal relationship with. It’s just not good coaching period
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Valid points, Self has earned a lot of patience.
One thing that stings is the statement made about not repeating last year. That’s looking like something that he didn’t actually fix.
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The crux of the problem…
KJ’s stats the past 3 years:
GP MIN FG% 3P% FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS 18 28.6 49.6 0.0 78.6 4.7 2.2 0.9 0.8 2.4 1.1 8.3 34 33.4 60.1 0.0 60.0 4.6 3.1 0.6 1.1 2.4 1.8 12.6 36 27.3 62.2 0.0 60.7 4.3 1.9 0.8 0.8 2.9 1.5 10.6
What leaps out? Consistency, but zero progression. Actually, his numbers are down this year - scoring and shooting percentage (precipitously). Braun, Ogbaji, Wilson and McCullar all stepped up their junior or senior seasons and took on the leadership, alpha role. KJ is he who he is - a solid role player, but only that. Arguably a dependable bench player rather than 30+ minute starter. Tough to win with a 4 as a starter who can’t average 5 RBs, is shooting 40%, can’t make a shot from outside the paint, and averages just two FTAs per game.
DaJuan’s stats the past 4 years:
GP MIN FG% 3P% FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS 20 32.0 44.1 31.6 65.9 2.8 5.9 0.4 1.5 1.1 1.8 9.8 34 35.7 42.4 38.4 80.4 2.0 6.5 0.4 1.5 1.6 2.4 8.5 36 34.2 47.1 40.5 59.6 2.5 6.2 0.4 2.2 1.6 2.0 8.9 40 29.0 42.7 32.3 79.2 1.4 4.2 0.3 1.5 2.0 1.5 5.4
What leaps out? Consistency, but no progression. Juan is who is he is. A solid game manager and decent defender, but he needs to have better players around him. Tough to win with a PG who can’t create his own shot, can’t beat his defender off the dribble, can’t finish drives, averages only 2 FTAs per game and doesn’t make them consistently when he does get to the line. Yes, was PG on a national championship team, but there were 3 NBA players on that team, and it was the “back-up” PG who was often on the floor at critical times, because he could create his own shot and score.
Dickinson’s stats the past 4 years:
GP MIN FG% 3P% FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS 21 29.9 52.6 22.2 79.7 9.7 2.2 1.4 1.1 2.1 1.8 16.4 33 32.2 54.8 35.4 62.4 10.9 2.3 1.4 0.9 2.2 1.8 17.9 34 32.7 56.0 42.1 72.7 9.0 1.5 1.8 0.5 1.9 2.0 18.5 32 32.3 56.3 32.8 80.2 8.6 2.3 1.5 0.5 2.7 2.0 18.6
What leaps out? Consistency, but no progression. Slight regression scoring and shooting % this year. He is who he is. A skilled low post scorer and solid rebounder, but who isn’t a rim protector and is a defensive liability against stretch 5s and pick and rolls. As I noted in another thread, his strengths don’t seem to be enough to overcome his weaknesses. His teams will have had double digit losses each of the past 4 years (assuming we will lose at least 4 more this year).
With those 3 as starters, you have to have guys at the 2 and 3 who can make up for their limitations - who can light it up from outside, regularly attack the rim and finish or get to the FT line, and who can defend the perimeter and keep their opponent from getting into the paint - not just one of those attributes (Griffen from 3 or Storr to attack, for example), but all three. And, we don’t have any close to that. McCullar gave us close to that last year, which is why we were better than we are now until he got hurt.
The issue is and has been roster construction - over-reliance on solid role players who aren’t close to having NBA level talent, and completely whiffing on transfers the past two years. To compete for a national championship, you have to have multiple NBA level players on the roster - we do not…
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Sorry - the stats formatting was correct in the post - not sure how to correct…
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Nailed it.
To format i think put two carriage returns between each row
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Look at UCLA, Nova, Syracuse Louisville, UNC and Indiana. It is not easy to replace your superstar coach. People definitely take Bill for granted.
Duke hasn’t won a Natty in a decade. Kentucky hasn’t won one in 13 years.
In Bill’s time here he has won with two bigs, playing 4 guards, playing a modern stretch 4, etc.
Honestly it is kind of asinine to think the game has passed him by. I think he genuinely plays the 8 guys he thinks are the best. Does he play them the rotation fans would prefer? No. But usually he correctly identifies the best 8.
I won’t be sad to see this senior class leave, no doubt. But I would never write off a guy who has won a Natty playing high low and the 4 out as a guy who has let the game pass him by.
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@Kcmatt7 I agree, but what I wonder is if his reliance on his seniors is an indication that he plans to leave anyway whether conscious decision or not.
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@approxinfinity said in Putting things in context:
@Kcmatt7 I agree, but what I wonder is if his reliance on his seniors is an indication that he plans to leave anyway whether conscious decision or not.
He is going to coach Peterson before he hangs it up imo. You don’t get to coach talent like that too often.
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No doubt it’s difficult to replace legends. My criticism of Bill this year is not a reflection of his past accomplishments. He has adapted plenty over the years, most impressive on the fly at times.
There is a negative trend the past 2-3 years though and I do think a bunch of it centers around the 3 seniors who’ve been here multiple seasons. Not one of them got better from last year to this year and statistically just about all 3 of them have regressed. So what’s the issue there. Bill has had countless guys hit their senior year and that was their best year. We are not seeing it, so what’s changed?
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@approxinfinity said in Putting things in context:
@Kcmatt7 I agree, but what I wonder is if his reliance on his seniors is an indication that he plans to leave anyway whether conscious decision or not.
I don’t see it happening after this season unless it’s something health related forcing him into retirement. I do think NIL politics will be what drives him out because we’ve seen it happen at Villanova, Virginia, and Miami now with some of the other top coaches in the game.
I do think Self is around next year because next year’s team will be a legit title contender with Flory, Peterson, and Jackson running the show. I hope Rylan comes back next season because I believe he’d be a great fit with the roster next season. Tiller I think will be a solid player, but he’s mostly a below the rim player and misses a lot of bunnies, even in his highlight film and would be better served as Flory’s back up next season. He also has limited range so playing him amd Flory together would create spacing issues on offense.
I think a true stretch 4 should be top priority along with a wing if Rylan leaves and a PG if Elmarko has a setback.
We’ll see with the 5×5 rule what happens with Zeke, but he’s a player that struggles against top level competition. KU has played 5 games against currently ranked teams (Michigan St., Duke, Missouri, ISU, and Houston) and Mayo has struggled with shooting in all of those games. I know he was the only KU player in double figures in Ames, but he was still 7-19 from the field and 3-9 from 3.
I said at the beginning of the season that this team lacks NBA ready talent as there’s nobody, including Flory, that will be on an NBA roster opening night next October. 2025-26 is a different story as KU should have at least 2 players (Peterson and Flory) that will be on NBA rosters on opening night in October of 2026.
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@kjayhawks said in Putting things in context:
@Kcmatt7 I wish I felt the same way I’m just absolutely disgusted in Selfs decision making the last few years. This program headed down in a bad way. I’m hearing Peterson is now having second thoughts about coming and for the record I don’t blame him one bit. I would steer clear of this place if I was him. I’m just scratching my head as to why you would build a 20 point lead with Flory and Rylen then set them down for most of the next half. At this point KJ is the worst multiple year starter in the Self era and Juan is the worst PG.
LOL… You aren’t hearing shit on Peterson. So dramatic.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Putting things in context:
No doubt it’s difficult to replace legends. My criticism of Bill this year is not a reflection of his past accomplishments. He has adapted plenty over the years, most impressive on the fly at times.
There is a negative trend the past 2-3 years though and I do think a bunch of it centers around the 3 seniors who’ve been here multiple seasons. Not one of them got better from last year to this year and statistically just about all 3 of them have regressed. So what’s the issue there. Bill has had countless guys hit their senior year and that was their best year. We are not seeing it, so what’s changed?
They’re not NBA talent, that’s the difference. Most of the players you’re referring to are players that had the talent, declared for the draft after their junior years, went through the predraft process to get NBA feedback, and came back for their senior years as expected and worked on those skills and became NBA draft picks, even if it was a second round pick.
I don’t think many actually understand just how much the FBI/NCAA investigations killed KU’s recruiting. KU only brought in 3 players from the time the NCAA investigation was announced in the summer of 2020 that became NBA draft picks. KJ and Zach Clemence are still here from the 2021 class that saw Self bring in 8 players (including transfers) and will produce 0 NBA players (only 2 players are still here). The 2022 class included 5 players and included 2 of the 3 NBA picks in Dick and McCullar (nobody from that class is still at KU). 2023 saw Self bring in 9 new players. 1 has been drafted (Furphy), and 1 could be drafted down the line (Elmarko), but only 3 of those players are even still on the roster (Dickinson, Jackson, McDowell), and only one is playing this season (Dickinson). The 2024 class featured 9 new players again with only one looking like a future NBA player (Flory) now. If Griffen learns how to play defense, he could become a draft picks.
That’s why KU is in the boat they’re in right now. The portal has killed the the 4-5 year players at programs since they don’t have to sit out a season anymore. KJ may very well be the last 4 year guy for Self at KU that’s a rotation player for 3+ seasons.
