For quite some time there has been a schism developing amongst KU fans. It’s an easy one to see both ways, but it is a divisive and polarizing issue for a reason. On the one hand you have the fans that stand behind Bill Self no matter the circumstance. Their arguments are more than understandable. Bill Self is a phenomenal coach; he has reached the mountaintop in 2008, he’s brought home a record number of Big 12 championships that has put him in company with some of the game’s greatest. On the other hand is the group that is trying to push our fan base in the direction that the vast majority of sports has gone. The direction that utilizes advanced statistics to determine correlated factors to reach the dependent variable that we are constantly pursuing. In our case that dependent variable is a National Championship.

This is a good post and a discussion that simply needs to be had. We’re all excited about the win against Oklahoma, and to be sure this was a great win. People are already making comparisons to the OT victory over Mizery, which, to me, was the final stake being driven through the heart of that poor, sad, pathetic fanbase. Unfortunately, HOW we win is often just as important and telling about our team as anything else. On that 2012 team there is little to dissect in terms of strategy. We played a 6-man rotation. There was little room to second-guess decisions. This team–as has been stated by pretty much everyone–has 11 players that could see extensive PT on just about any team in the country. The topic of discussion here is yet again, the playing time of Landen Lucas and Jamari Traylor.

I have a strong sense of affinity for most posters on here. However, my largest problem is the contingent of fans that believe that Coach Self is infallibly right because he coaches the game and gets paid a lot to do so. I’m sorry, but this way of thinking is sadly ignorant. Again, it essentially says anyone in a position of authority is right because they are in a position of authority. That goes against the very core of what we are as Americans and people living in Democracy. I am not a highly paid professional basketball coach, this much is true, but I can tell you that mistakes have been made by those in positions of authority throughout history, and most definitely throughout the history of basketball.

I am, of many things a historian. I have studied it extensively throughout my life and it is my passion. Robert E. Lee was a brilliant military strategist–much more intelligent than me. But I can tell you that Pickett’s Charge at Gettysburg was a calamitous disaster. Possibly the worst decision he ever made. As a graduate student I have taken to studying economics. I’m no genius, nor will I be Chairman of the Federal Reserve anytime soon, but I can tell you that Alan Greenspan should have stuck to his guns when he said in 1995 that we should heed the warnings of Japan where overheated markets were not cooled by the Bank of Japan leading to the real estate-bubble that developed in the late 1980s and then burst in 1989. We experienced much the same in 2008 by the moves set in motion during the 1990s and then the early 2000s. I am no expert, but these disasters were obvious during their development and they’re obvious now. I fear that we may be treading down a similar path this season (of course, this is basketball and as a historian comparing the deaths of brave men, or even the economic wellbeing of an entire society are simply not comparable. However, I feel that you all understand the central point towards which I am pursuing).

Landen Lucas’s player efficiency rating is considerably higher than it has been in the past, yet it is still lower than other players we have on this team. As several other posters have pointed out, Bragg has reached this point, and while Diallo makes head-scratching-decisions, his mistakes are without a doubt correctable. That may be the most infuriating point of this whole conundrum. Diablo and Bragg have correctable shortcomings, whereas Lucas and Traylor have simply reached who and what they are as players and there is little that can be changed or adjusted. Jamari Traylor’s PER is…pretty much the same. Bad. Did you notice that Lon Kruger did not bother guarding Lucas at all? Just left him alone. At the top of the key, near the free throw line, in the post. Anywhere. Flat out ignored him. That is my concern. Lon Kruger simply addressed what we all know to be true: Landen Lucas is not a threat. He knows he doesn’t have anything close to a post move, so we have essentially conceded our offense to playing 4 on 5. This may be crass, and again, I have no problem with either of these two young men as students, people, or representatives of this university, but they are simply not good. IF they were suddenly erased from this team’s lineup I DO NOT for a second think it changes the trajectory of this team, our chances of winning the Big 12, a national title, games against top-tier competition, etc. In my opinion, it just simply would have no effect, other than positives, on this team.

As many of you are well-read basketball fans, I’m sure many of you are aware who Diamond Stone is. If not, he’s the 5-star center for Maryland. He, like most freshman, went through some growing pains up to this point. But Mark Turgeon hung with the young man despite his shortcomings. In a short while, Diamond Stone has become a pretty competent post player, putting up 39 points for No. 4 Maryland to erase a 10-point deficit. Can you imagine if we get a fraction of that production from Diallo or Bragg (keep in mind I said a fraction). I’m not lobbying for Bragg or Diallo to play 35 minutes a game, but having them ready by March makes us scary. Landen and Jamari’s ceilings have simply been met. Landen’s 8 rebounds and 5 points in 25 minutes is nice, but does little to impact or improve our chances of winning in March and April, and they are hardly a safety net (I have nightmares of double teams swarming LL and knocking the ball out of his sensitive hands). This is my concern. I want KU to win just as badly as anyone else on this sight, and I hope I’m wrong, but quite frankly the truth seems glaringly obvious to me and I fear, unlike other examples throughout history, we have ample alternatives the sad outcome that we may be sewing for ourselves.

All I ask of the old school fan base is to disenthrall yourselves with the idea that Bill Self cannot be wrong. He has been. Several times. Our season has ended in the past because he has been wrong. HE HAS ADMITTED AS SUCH. You are not being misled. These are not lies. It has happened.

I would have delved further into statistics and things of that nature, but it is my birthday, and I am going out to dinner with a very pretty young lady. Happy New Year to my fellow Jayhawks, and as always, RCJH.

Was the detrimental conduct him being the best 3-point shooter on our team?

I’ve been wanting to make this post for a long time. This is what I’ve noticed from reading Jason King’s “Beyond the Phog” and the “Top 100 things every KU fan should know before they die.” And now that I have a break in school, here it is.

What’s made KU so special during Bill Self’s tenure has been Coach Self’s remarkable coaching staff, and quite simply, the bond and swagger that has developed amongst his players that carried over for the first 9 seasons or so of his tenure.

We have had so much turnover since the end of the 2013 (and even 2012) season that it’s been hard to get back to where we’ve always been. That hardened spirit you saw from Tyshawn Taylor, Thomas Robinson, Elijah Johnson, and Travis Releford (the list goes on), that was carryover from Sherron Collins, Mario Chalmers, and Darnell Jackson. That 2008 team embodied the KU spirit. Darnell Jackson said before the Final Four game against UNC, “just let your nuts hang.” That, my friends, is swagger. That’s confidence. Tell me last time you saw a KU team in the past two years play that way, especially away from AFH. Because National Championships are not won in AFH, unfortunately, they’re won on neutral floors. That carryover, that swagger, came from the first Self team with Aaron Miles and Keith Langford. They instilled it into the players that would go on to win the national championship, who in turn instilled it in the Morris twins, T-Rob, even Tyrel Reed (I’m thinking the Mizzou game when I say this). With Self’s recruiting tactics in the last couple of seasons, we’ve lost that swagger. We no longer have that continuation of passing this passion from one crop of players to the next. We’re not Kentucky. We never will be, nor would I want us to be. On the front of UK’s jerseys, it might as well say Calipari. They don’t embody anything. It doesn’t mean as much. I don’t discount their success or what Cal has been able to do, it’s commendable. But it’s not us.

Last year made this deficiency prominent to me. After a loss last season, Nadir Tharpe said, “when I got here, there were guys that wouldn’t let us lose. There were guys that would cry in the locker room if we did lose.” He was right. He could’ve pretty much said, Tyshawn and T-Rob explicitly weren’t gonna let us lose, but you get the idea. Naadir Tharpe and Jamari Traylor are the only ones that carry over the longstanding pride in KU. Tharpe is gone (and while some might be fine with that, I’m not one of them), and Jamari Traylor quite simply doesn’t have it. Andrew Wiggins didn’t have it. Joel Embiid didn’t have it. Perry Ellis clearly doesn’t have it. Nobody on this year’s team has it. Losing that attitude has hurt KU significantly. What happened to FOE? Too Strong? Put ya shoes on? It’s gone.

Another thing that has hurt KU significantly, which has been such a strength has been KU’s coaching staff. Losing Danny Manning and Joe Dooley hurt tremendously. But who have been their replacements? Jerrance Howard. A notorious recruiter of the Chicago-area. But that’s it. This move certainly lends itself to Self’s approach to recruiting in the past two years, but that’s it. There’ s very little “Snacks” brings to the table besides recruiting. Danny Manning turned average post players into giants. Into lottery picks. We no longer have that in our arsenal. Danny was arguably the best player KU has ever had. He knew that. The players knew that. That’s part of instilling the KU tradition. And as for Dooley, look at games from 2007, 2008, even 2012. I watched them all summer in between classes. We ran complicated schemes. Changed our offensive sets, created plays for shooters, dare I say, ran zones. As everyone noticed (except for Bill Self) last year, we could not play man-to-man in 2014. We needed to play zone. We did not, and we lost in the second round to a mediocre team. Players’ comments in the past few games about our “mechanic and robotic” scheme, are frightening. If we as fans notice it every game, don’t you think opposing coaches do too? If we continue down this path this year, we will come short of our potential again. I for one see Dooley’s departure as a possible explanation for the logic-defying ignorance we have seen from KU in the past two years.

My problem with Bill Self is his belief that what has worked in the past will continue to work in the future. If ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Pardon the historical reference, but the Japanese did not change their military tactics leading up to the Second World War, because quite simply, they worked in the past. Why bother changing them? The carnage of the Pacific War was the result. When you fail to adapt, you inevitably fail. Without so many of the pieces that have held KU together in the past, and kept KU at a high level, we are treading towards a downward spiral to minimal success. And for some, a Big 12 championship is success. Not to me it isn’t. We can’t win a national championship with the status quo. We have to adapt and change our ways in terms of scheme. I’m all for recruiting players that will be around for more than a year. By all means! But as someone else pointed out, what in the hell is the point in recruiting elite wings if all you want them to do is throw the ball in the post. Hey, B-Star was great at that. Just go recruit 3 of those, a really good center, and a PG and we should be set…right? It’s not going to work out that way. Play to your strengths. Don’t treat them as a burden. Because this is college. Not high school. You choose your players. They’re not handed to you.

This much to me is obvious.

Happy Holidays, everyone!

@HighEliteMajor I’d just like to add to this. Has anyone listened to Sherron Collin’s interview on the Ain’t No Seats podcast? There’s a part where he talks about what it was like to play with Xavier Henry. Sherron struggled to make it “his” team even though he had clearly earned it: “I didn’t come back to win the Big 12; I came back to win a title. I wanted to be the first player to win 2 in their time at KU.”

Instead, they had to focus on getting Xavier his shots because he had to go the NBA. Because it wasn’t just about Xavier, it was about the direction recruiting was going and Self trying to send a message that, “you can be a OAD and play at Kansas.” There was also Xavier’s dad hanging around the team causing drama. Sherron said once when Xavier had a bad half, his dad chewed his ass in the tunnel. He came into the locker room with tears in his eyes. It all came home to roost against UNI.

That right there? That, my friends, is poison. An absolute cancer. Not saying all OADs bring that sort of drama, but that is the kind of thing you want to avoid altogether.

You think Devonte or Frank Mason’s parents pulled some shit like that? No, they were just happy to be there. THAT is what KU needs to go back to.

Ugh. I’ll never understand this question. You’d take a FF with a shot at the national title with any team. It doesn’t matter who it is. That’s why we play! This is Kansas! We play to win it all. I’ll never understand how this isn’t a no-brainer.

Perhaps the better question is, would you trade the whole streak for, let’s say, 2 more national titles? Sure there are some conference titles sprinkled in there, but certainly not 11 in a row. The answer should be unequivocally ‘yes.’ That makes KU a dynasty. that means 3 national titles in 10 years. THAT is success. THAT is so much more befitting our role in basketball history. Disenthrall yourself with the title streak. They’re all well and good, but if you want to talk about Self’s legacy, going 15-1 in-conference all so you can get run out of they gym by Northern Iowa as the number 1 overall seed is not flattering. Come on, guys.

@Blown There’s something going on here… I think you might want to reconsider your weekend plans. Just kidding…but seriously

@KUinLA I think you make an interesting point. When you see our big guys (like you said) about eight feet out, they don’t even look like they’re considering putting up a shot. It makes us extremely predictable and easy to defend. From about 2007-2011, I had no concern that we could hit a mid-range shot. No concern that Arthur, Wright, the Morii, etc. could all hit that shot. Is it a matter of not having the talent or not cultivating it?

I’m not disagreeing with people who say that Self wants to stick with the inside game, that much is obvious, but we haven’t always been this way, have we? Remember the Big 12 Championship against Texas in 2008? That was a three-point shoot out. That’s all we did. What changed? Not that we relied on it by any means in the NC run in 2008, but we put up a lot of three pointers (if I wasn’t in class, I’d look up the numbers) that season. Both seasons of our Final Four runs we were able to shoot the ball well. The last two seasons it’s looked like we aren’t even entertaining the thought. What has happened? Someone said the other day that losing Dooley may have set us back a lot more than people realize. I think they’re right. Of course the same can be said for Danny. Now Bill is all by himself and we continually see this bash your head against the wall result of just continuing to pound it inside for no reason. I liked Jay Bilas analogy the other night: “Like trying to play frisbee golf in the Redwood Forrest.”

So I ask, what has changed? We haven’t always been this way, have we? Is Self kind of being exposed as ignorantly stubborn without two great assistant coaches? I don’t want to get crucified for questioning the 82% win percentage, I’m just asking.

@KansasComet I’m starting to think some people have amnesia about Tharpe. The bad performances stick out and the good ones are easily forgotten. I’m not saying anything more than he was better last year than a lot of people may realize. He had some poor performances, sure. There were issues, and he was an awful defender. But just take a look at some of his numbers last year in the Big 12.

@ OU: 17 pts., 3 : 3 (A : TO), 2-3 from 3pt. @ ISU: 23 pts., 4 : 4, 3-4 from 3pt OSU: 21 pts., 6 : 6, 3-4 from 3pt ISU: 12 pts., 12 : 1, 2-5 from 3pt @ Baylor: 22pts., 2 : 0, 4-6 from 3pt @ KSU 13 pts, 10 : 3, 1-5 from 3pt OU: 19 pts., 5 : 1, 1-1 from 3pt (6-7 from field) TTU: 16 pts., 3 : 1, 3-6 from 3 pt.

I know I’m gonna get killed for this. But all I’m saying is, to remember Tharpe as some scrub player who was regularly outplayed by his backups is factually incorrect. It’s like KU fans think Conner Frankamp was the next Oscar Robinson because of the tournament last year. And not only that, but beating up on a kid after he’s gone is the antithesis of what KU fans are all about.

I’m sorry, but I liked Tharpe. One of my favorite KU memories is in 2013 when he made the game winning shot, down by one in Stillwater, in double over time and collapsed into Self’s arms on the sideline, absolutely exhausted, as the buzzer sounded and the Big 12 was once again ours for the taking. Don’t be so quick to forget what players did for this program because of a mistake.

Great comments by everyone, and I agree with pretty much all of it. At some point during the game someone on twitter asked, “why won’t Self play Cliff?” To which someone else responded “Oh today? Probably because he has three fouls in 8 minutes.” That pretty much sums it up. Cliff has turned into quite the project it seems. His ability to give up and-ones is pretty bad.

But all that being said, there was a point in the game when I thought, “wow, this could turn out really badly for Cliff.” What I meant by that is, KU is the leader for Thon Maker and Chiek Diello in the recruiting game, and in my opinion, Maker would make this team a national championship favorite. And since Self obviously won’t adjust his system, Maker would be an Embiid-like get. Also with Bragg coming in next year, Cliff may get lost in the shuffle. It’s a good problem to have for us as fans, but Cliff’s lack of development, particularly of basketball acumen, seems to be one of most troubling things. He obviously never learned much about the system and strategy of the game of basketball in high school. Cliff is clearly, clearly not ready for the NBA, but with potentially 3 top recruits coming in to play his position, where does that really leave us with Cliff?

I think the sad thing about Cliff is that someone ever projected him as a lottery pick. He’s a 6-8 forward who is really going to have to find his niche in the NBA. It seems unlikely at this point. But it creates a lot of problems for everyone.

At least in the tournament, the NCAA should take reviews out of the officials’ hands. I agree with what some were saying during the NC: “If you review it and still can’t get it right, what good is it?” Do what the NHL does (and this is something I think the NHL has done a marvelous job with). When there’s a review, the officials have nothing to do with it. They get a phone call from the league office, and guys in a settled and quiet room get to review the play and make the right call. For officials to make mistakes and then repeat that mistake by saying “We can’t see anything” when it’s an obvious call is an egregious error.

I think officiating these past two years in college basketball has been some of the worst I’ve ever seen. What is a block/charge anymore? Is it just open to interpretation? Is traveling against the rules anymore or can players take 5 steps on their way to a layup? Something’s gotta change because these officials–and it was painfully obvious in the Final Four–are an absolute joke.

Jefferson’s is a great restaurant. Most of the restaurants/bars on Massachusetts street are great. Free State is very well known and always reliable. The campus itself is just beautiful. I always enjoy just walking around there.

From what I’ve seen Dave didn’t throw any punches. I thought he tried to stomp the K-State guy who rushed in, but I don’t think so. Silvio threw 2 or 3 punches from what I could tell. Marcus ran over to the K-State guy when he was one the ground and was shouting at him, but… Just a real bad look. I was cool with everything Silvio did up until he was standing over that guy. His stuff was a great response, but man, you’ve got to be smarter than that. I would think he’ll receive a pretty punitive response from Self.

@HighEliteMajor I’d just like to add to this. Has anyone listened to Sherron Collin’s interview on the Ain’t No Seats podcast? There’s a part where he talks about what it was like to play with Xavier Henry. Sherron struggled to make it “his” team even though he had clearly earned it: “I didn’t come back to win the Big 12; I came back to win a title. I wanted to be the first player to win 2 in their time at KU.”

Instead, they had to focus on getting Xavier his shots because he had to go the NBA. Because it wasn’t just about Xavier, it was about the direction recruiting was going and Self trying to send a message that, “you can be a OAD and play at Kansas.” There was also Xavier’s dad hanging around the team causing drama. Sherron said once when Xavier had a bad half, his dad chewed his ass in the tunnel. He came into the locker room with tears in his eyes. It all came home to roost against UNI.

That right there? That, my friends, is poison. An absolute cancer. Not saying all OADs bring that sort of drama, but that is the kind of thing you want to avoid altogether.

You think Devonte or Frank Mason’s parents pulled some shit like that? No, they were just happy to be there. THAT is what KU needs to go back to.

@HighEliteMajor I seriously got giddy reading that number of national championships in that timeframe. Yes, that hypothetical has to be a no brainer…right?

I can’t believe what I just watched…

@mayjay by all means, not trying to get into the program comparison–I wish KU had as much success in the same time. THAT BEING SAID, aesthetically speaking, that’s a real lame feature… Much more prefer all that AFH has to offer.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=211692333

Call me crazy, I think this is this really lame.

Now, just imagine if you took away those two dumb ass false starts and the pick 6 on that horrendous throw…

This is why KU football can’t be good.

@DoubleDD Absolutely he should do the same thing! That should’ve always been the case. It’s not as if Central Michigan and Ohio are world beaters, but they’re pretty steady programs by comparison. We should be playing Directional School of Technology State in all three non-con games that will get us halfway to bowl eligibility. This should be obvious to Beaty…

While I guess this whole “let’s put politics on a sports site” idea was done with good intentions, I have to say this idea is a cancer on an otherwise good forum. To say the least that site is laughably untrustworthy. Please seek new, and better, information.