So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?
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Expect a full offseason for the guys returning to be a big one with the S & C program. Jalen went home and improved on his own last year. I’m expecting he could make another leap with a coach pushing him all summer. Harris & Thompson are two others I think we can expect leaps from.
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Harris needs to, but he is so small I don’t know how much we should expect.
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@BeddieKU23 I am hoping we see big things from Bryce next season.
Realistically I think we want to see CB end up the super sub. I know guys don’t lose starting spots often under Self, but I’m hoping this one is an exception.
Ideally:
- PG: TyTy 15/ Harris 15/ Pettiford 10
- SG: Bryce 25/ TyTy 10/ Pettiford 5
- SF - Ochai 28/ CB 12
- PF - Wilson 25/ Martin 8/ CB 7
- C - Dave 25 / Clemence 10 / Adams 5
Minutes totals:
- Tyty - 25
- Bryce - 25
- Ochai - 28
- CB - 19
- Dave - 25
- Jalen - 25
- Harris - 15
- Pettiford - 15
- Clemence 10
- KJ - 5
- Martin - 8
That’s a pretty deep rotation. I think when it got later in conference and definitely come tourney time you would see basically no minutes from one of the 3 bigs between KJ, Martin and Clemence. And then probably one of either Pettiford or Harris would get almost no run.
CB really thrived his freshman year in that lesser role, I think that is what we want to see.
Ochai was more consistent than this board would lead you to believe. And if he improves at all that would be fantastic.
If we don’t land TyTy I think we will see us go after a transfer who is a sniper to bring off the bench in a very Isaiah Moss/Brannen Green type of role. And you’ll see a dogfight between Harris and Pettiford for that starting spot.
Ideally someone takes a big leap forward this offseason. Dave, Bryce, or Ochai if I were guessing to be the most likely. CB could do it. Jalen still has room to grow. The Martin dude could surprise I think.
One thing is becoming clear to me though - Bill wants to get back to 2 posts and 2 guard lineups. I think there is plenty of PT to be had for Harris, Pettiford and another PG. The team went from overloaded on wings to a much more traditional construct which is nice to see.
If this does indeed end up being the final roster - I think you will see a more traditional Bill Self type of pace than this past year was. The offense should be more efficient. The defense should be about the same. I thought Dave made a big stride from a basketball IQ point later in the season and so I do expect him to have a better start to the season next year.
All in all, I think this team will be much better. Especially now that they should have a little bit better ball movement by 1. always having a PG on the floor, and 2. adding the ability to play 2 PGs at once which Bill has really done well with in the past as far as generating offense.
I’m pretty excited for this bunch. Even if they don’t land TyTy.
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@BShark Not even sure we need him to improve. But 10 minutes a game with him doing what he was doing there at the end of the season will be great. Part of what made him stand out last season was that he had skills nobody else did. About the only guy on the whole offense who could pass the ball.
Ideally that shouldn’t be the case next year… But he can help to bridge the gap and let Bill play 2 PGs the entire game if he truly wants to.
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@Kcmatt7 KU absolutely needs Dajuan Harris to improve big time in two areas for him to be able to play the starter level minutes he’s probably going to play next season. The most important area by far is his decision making. Harris had a turnover rate of over 28% last year. That will not cut it next season with what’s already shaping up to be a terrible defensive team.
The second thing Harris needs to do is up his aggressive and look to score a lot more. Harris showed an ability to score and shoot very well. Harris can absolutely be a guy that be a 15-5 type player while shooting 40%+ from 3.
The development of Dajuan Harris into an alpha type player and embracing that role is going to be the biggest factor in how good Kansas is next season.
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I’m predicting starters next year are: Pettiford Agbaji Thompson Wilson McCormack
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As long as Agbaji returns I’m expecting that battle between Bryce Thompson and Christian Braun for a starting spot to be very competitive. The signing of Pettiford is really important for building quality depth and development
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@RockkChalkk said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I’m predicting starters next year are: Pettiford Agbaji Thompson Wilson McCormack
KU’s in trouble next year if Pettiford is starting next season over Harris. There’s a reason why Pettiford is ranked as low as he is and that’s because he has a lot holes in his game at this point. He has the tools and foundation to develop into a very good PG. Freshmen PG’s struggle in Self’s system because there’s a lot to it. Dotson absolutely struggled at times a a freshman and was much more prepared coming in than Pettiford is. Harris is entering his 3rd year in the program. Harris is much closer than Pettiford to being able to run Self’s system.
Pettiford will be very good at KU, but his best role as a freshman will be backing up Harris.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
The second thing Harris needs to do is up his aggressive and look to score a lot more. Harris showed an ability to score and shoot very well. Harris can absolutely be a guy that be a 15-5 type player while shooting 40%+ from 3.
Strongly disagree unless that 40% on on low volume. His shots are wide open if he is guarded his numbers will be bad. I would love to be wrong about Harris but I don’t see KU being any good if he is a major player.
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I think next year is very likely a bridge year for KU anyway. One reason I like the Martin addition is it lets us take the pressure off other bigs having to contribute right away. Zach needs a year in our s&c program.
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@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
The second thing Harris needs to do is up his aggressive and look to score a lot more. Harris showed an ability to score and shoot very well. Harris can absolutely be a guy that be a 15-5 type player while shooting 40%+ from 3.
Strongly disagree unless that 40% on on low volume. His shots are wide open if he is guarded his numbers will be bad. I would love to be wrong about Harris but I don’t see KU being any good if he is a major player.
KU’s best teams have had a PG as one of, if not the leading scorer. KU’s worst teams have been when a PG isn’t much of a scoring threat. Harris has the ability to be a 15-5 player and needs to pushed into that role. His quickness and explosiveness is what can help him get his own shots from 3. Harris was 64% on his limited attempts this year. He’s a very good shooter that needs to shoot more. It won’t be hard to get Harris good looks next season. Set a screen or pick for Harris and if the defender goes under, shoot the three and if the defender goes through or switches, drive to the basket.
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I guess the main difference is I don’t think Harris is capable of being that kind of scorer. I would agree that Bill’s best teams have a scoring PG.
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@BShark Harris is the ideal backup PG - with Senior year starter potential.
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@Kcmatt7 Harris is better than a back up PG and KU doesn’t have a better option right now than Harris at the position. The biggest hole in his game right now is turning the ball over too much. If he cleans that up, he will be the next great out of nowhere PG for Self.
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@Kcmatt7 I was simply going by the stats as listed by the Big XII on its website. Argue with them over the criteria, not me!
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@mayjay okay but you can agree that maybe, perhaps, Dave’s FG% isn’t exactly a key indicator of him being good last year?
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@KirkIsMyHinrich said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
So for some perspective on Dave, here are the field goal percentages of some other recent KU big men:
- Raef LaFrentz - 55.5%
- Nick Collison - 56.2%
- Wayne Simien 55.8%
- Darrell Arthur - 54.1%
- Jeff Withey - 56.5%
- Joel Embiid - 62.6%
- Udoka Azubuike - 74.6%
- Cole Aldrich - 57.4%
- Darnell Jackson - 58.0%
- Landen Lucas - 61.2%
- Cliff Alexander - 56.6%
- Cheick Diallo - 56.9%
- Jamari Traylor - 53.2%
- Marcus Morris - 55.5%
- Markieff Morris - 55.3%
- Greg Ostertag - 55.0%
- Julian Wright - 55.5%
- Sasha Kaun - 56.8%
- Perry Ellis - 50.8%
- Eric Chenowith - 45.4%
- And finally Dave McCormack, who shot 51.5% from the field this season.
Lookong at the list, I see quite a few All Americans who played together or with other historically good and great players (Hinrich, Collins, Miles, etc etc). I wonder, hmmm, does having 2 or 3 other consistent scorers in a lineup have any effect on another player having a better chance to score?
Name all the high percentage shooters Dave had the chance to play with this year. For that matter, how often did KU have anyone of size who could help take the pressure off? Jalen rebounded well, but seemed nowhere to be found in the banging underneath.
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@mayjay Who on that list would you NOT take over Dave? (With the caveat that you have to assume they too would have at least been here a 3rd season).
Maybe Chenowith and Kaun?
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We all just want the best for Dave. He never should have been put in the position of being the sole big on the roster. He will be able to play this upcoming season with less pressure.
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@Kcmatt7 said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@mayjay Who on that list would you NOT take over Dave? (With the caveat that you have to assume they too would have at least been here a 3rd season).
Maybe Chenowith and Kaun?
The game has changed so much since even 2008 when KU won the title that season let alone from the oldest player on that list from over 25 years ago so not really that recent. I will say this right now and stand by this statement, 2020-21 David McCormack would’ve been a starter if he was on that 2008 title team. Dave and Darnell Jackson are basically the same player. If you swap them and put Darnell Jackson on the team this season as the focal point of the offense instead of McCormack, their numbers and complaints against each player would be nearly identical. Don’t even get me started on how much shit would thrown towards Sasha Kaun if he was on this team as the only legit big man.
Supporting cast matter and the only player on that list with a worst supporting cast than Dave had this season was Chenowith.
LaFrentz had Pierce, Vaughn, and Pollard. Collision had Golden and Hinrich. Simien had Miles and Langford. Arthur, Jackson, Wright, and Kaun had Chalmers, Rush, and Collins. Withey and Traylor had T-Rob next them most of their careers (I don’t know why @KirkIsMyHinrich didn’t put T-Rob on there because he’d be damn near the top of that list of players I’d take and I’m assuming his career FG% is pretty high). Embiid had Wiggins. Doke had Graham, Svi, and then Dotson. Cole had Collins and Morris twins. Lucas and Ellis had Mason. Alexander and Diallo weren’t here long enough to develop although I believe Cliff would’ve become better overall than Dave, but I don’t think Diallo ever would’ve developed into much offensively and probably been a defender and rebounder so hard to make an official call there as neither played all that much as freshmen. The twins had Cole, Collins, Tyshawn, T-Rob throughout their careers. Ostertag had Walters and Jordan and then Vaughn and Pollard.
Chenowith I agree is by far the worst player on that list because he had Collision, Golden and Hinrich the second half of his career, but Dave gets hurt because he lacks having NBA caliber players around him which basically everyone else had at least one. Who on KU right now is an NBA caliber player?
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That post isn’t to say that Dave is better than everyone else on that list because he isn’t. In a vacuum, the players that I believe Dave is better than, or at least equal to, are Darnell Jackson, Landen Lucas, Cheick Diallo, Jamari Traylor, Sasha Kaun and Chenowith. Those players also had far better supporting casts than Dave has and none of those players were tasked with being the go-to player on their team the way Dave was.
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@Kcmatt7 Look at the rosters for the best shooters on your list. Give Dave a few players like Pierce, Hinrich, Chalmers or Collins, or deadeye shooters like Svi, or pair him with another big like Arthur or perhaps a twin of himself, or wings like Rush and Wiggins, and I think he could do very well. How many on that list had to wait playing behind NPOY candidates and were the only McD all-stars starters on the team when they finally started? (McD all-stars Preston, Dotson, and Grimes left; Bryce Thompson never reached his hype.)
Yes, it didn’t work out when Dave was paired with Doke, but 2 bigs have to work well with each other. Doke’s game didn’t lend itself to high/low exchanging and sharing with, well, anyone. And don’t ignore the near-80% contributions of Dave at the FT line.
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@mayjay so your argument is that he would play better next to better players even though he played next to better players before and it didn’t look good?
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@Kcmatt7 said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@mayjay so your argument is that he would play better next to better players even though he played next to better players before and it didn’t look good?
Dave was not the same player this season that he was last season. He was much improved this season, unless you think Bill Self is full of shit about that, but also played on the least talented Kansas team since the 98-99 team. When was the last time KU didn’t have a surefire NBA player on the roster because that was the case this season?
Dave shot 127/213 over the last 18 games (60% of the season) which comes out 59.6% and there’s little reason to believe Dave won’t be in that same range again next season.
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The one change I would like to see from Dave is on defense. He needs to calm down a bit and stay a bit more focused. An example is his desire to block shots into the upper seats. Dramatic yes, and there is times that is a moral breaker. However in more than one occasion as he went to make the monster block the guy he left received a pass for a layup. When he did get the block it typically went out of bounds off him negating a lot of the benefit.
His defense overall needs work but just staying in control as rim defender would help a lot.
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McCormick was a mixed bag this year. Positives: he showed upside on his back to the basket game with hook shots with either hand. He’s a great free throw shooter. His shot looks ugly but free throw distance and in he’s pretty good.
Negatives: struggles to score over length. His shot mechanics don’t let him really extend out to the three point line. He is an average passer but not great. Defensively he is a below average shot blocker as a center. Not as quick on his feet as he should be for someone his size. Which leads to struggles in pick and roll situations. Average rebounder.
McCormick will be better next year but he’s not an nba talent. He will have big games against lesser opponents but against nba caliber big guys he will struggle
Not a bad player but for us to be elite we need some elite players around him
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Actually, last season. Neither Too or Dot will ever be an NBA starter. Dot may never play meaningful minutes.
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@Fightsongwriter said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Actually, last season. Neither Too or Dot will ever be an NBA starter. Dot may never play meaningful minutes.
Last season’s team had two sure fire NBA players on the roster because both Doke and Dotson have played in the NBA this season. Regardless of whatever status either player reaches in the NBA doesn’t change that Doke was a first round pick, and Dotson has appeared in multiple NBA games this season.
Who on the team this year is even a threat to make the NBA? Bryce Thompson is probably the answer, but he was injured for 1/3 of the season and has a lot of work to fix his game up. Ochai is probably the second best chance as a 3&D player, but I think the NBA has cooled on him quite a bit at this point due to his overall lack of NBA caliber skill.
KU genuinely lacked top end talent this season which is something that hasn’t happened here in over 20 years. Only 2 players on the roster this season were top 50 recruits (Thompson and McCormack) whereas last season had 4 top 50 recruits in (Dotson, Doke, DeSousa, and Dave). KU’s recruiting has dropped off big time with the NCAA investigation over Self’s head. A borderline top 50 recruit is KU’s top recruit this year. It wasn’t that long ago a player of Clemence’s caliber was the worst player in the class, not the best.
In the last 4 recruiting classes, KU has lost 6 players early to non NBA related reasons. Having that many misses takes a toll on a teams talent level.
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@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I think next year is very likely a bridge year for KU anyway. One reason I like the Martin addition is it lets us take the pressure off other bigs having to contribute right away. Zach needs a year in our s&c program.
Agree. Our punishment will "finally!"be handed out by then. And Coach is coach - a great move - for as long as he wants to be, so the “Self is going to retire soon” argument won’t be able to be used anymore.
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Ok let me say this right out the gate. I may be thick - - I may not be the brightest light in the house – -I may be kind of slow catching onto some thinds - - some might even say I’m an idiot. - - THAT’S OK I can live with that.
But having said all that I’m going to say seeing this and reading just plain and simple pisses me off - -Is that simple enough for other people to understand ya think ?
Let me clarify I have not seen this here , thank GOD or at least I don’t think I might of missed it. Now BShark has mentioned somethings about it - -BUT in no way do I think he wants this in any way shaper or form I think he was just saying that it might be a possibility - -and that is Ochai may test the waters, that’s fine - -so No BShark isn’t one of the one’s I’m talking about.
What pisses me off is and saw from other sites is that there actually what I would say are the true idiots - and thats they want Ochai to leave to move on and don’t want him here anymore. - -To that I say are you FRICKING SERIOUS? - -are you that fickle , such a closet fan that if you have a player who doesn’t stand up to YOUR sorry ass expectations you want them out ? - - Get the F - - - out of here with that shit , as a matter of fact why don’t you relieve yourself - -dismiss yourself from being a true KU fan - -bout makes me sick to hear people say that. I could do without fair weather fans that are so quick to judge.
Hell it’s people like that if it were their way we would never lose , miss a shot, commit a turnover, never foul , get every rebound - people like this are sorry ass BEER guzzling Hoagie eatin couch potato Couch’s - you want the perfect player - -little FYI no such thing as perfect , there is only one perfect person in this world and he is NOT walking this earth right now. - -don’t know about you but I will take Ochai anytime thanks. -these people just want these players out recruited over to bring someone they think will be better and then THEY turn out themselves to be a bust this is what pisses me off – OK RANT OVER. I’ll take Ochai anywhere anytime - - Thanks. – - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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I would love for Ochai to come back. It’s also an incredible success story if he is drafted and I would be thrilled for him.
He was our best player last year, with Dave being #2. I was looking at a couple different interesting advanced stats and they basically said the same thing. Our starting 5 were clearly our best guys (with Ochai/Dave being 1/2) and then Harris was the only okay-ish bench player though Bryce improved in conference play. Mitch was atrocious. Like insanely negative.
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@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I would love for Ochai to come back. It’s also an incredible success story if he is drafted and I would be thrilled for him.
He was our best player last year, with Dave being #2. I was looking at a couple different interesting advanced stats and they basically said the same thing. Our starting 5 were clearly our best guys (with Ochai/Dave being 1/2) and then Harris was the only okay-ish bench player though Bryce improved in conference play. Mitch was atrocious. Like insanely negative.
Agree about Mitch for sure, and and most should know I really like Mitch but just didn’t have it this year, or not nearly as much so. - -Yet again when things like this happen there are some that just want to bury a guy with their verbal assaults some just really nasty - and that’s BS. At the end of the day these are STILL 19-23 yr old kids , their gonna have bad days - - months they’re human there are some people that just go 0ver the edge running these kids down. - The game of Basketball is STILL suppose to be fun for these kids , true for some it’s their future and I understand people’s frustration but to just unload on these kids is just not right - -people think these kids don’t realize that they are struggling - -they know that but dam some people need to put the pipe down and slowly back away - -just insane
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I love Mitch, it isn’t his fault he was the only back-up big man.
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@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I love Mitch, it isn’t his fault he was the only back-up big man.
your right it’s not, he just doesn’t have the build to be able to match up against P-5 big’s gets pushed around - -d-the effort is there BUT , just doesn’t have the frame/body on top of being less athletic then others, but he will bust his ass doing what he can , and he just loves KU 1000000 % good to have kids like that
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Ochai will get drafted eventually. He has a great stroke and is athletic and pretty long. He has improved continuously and has not hit his ceiling.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 you had me on everything except Harris 40% from 3. Kids form is jacked. It’s going to take seldenesque improvement in shooting form, Marcusian improvement will not suffice.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
That post isn’t to say that Dave is better than everyone else on that list because he isn’t. In a vacuum, the players that I believe Dave is better than, or at least equal to, are Darnell Jackson, Landen Lucas, Cheick Diallo, Jamari Traylor, Sasha Kaun and Chenowith. Those players also had far better supporting casts than Dave has and none of those players were tasked with being the go-to player on their team the way Dave was.
I agree with your general assessment. So the question is “Why did Self try to make Dave the focal point of the offense?”
This isn’t to start a campaign against Bill Self or anything silly like that. But in all honesty (and I agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 here) if Big Dave is more equivalent to Lucas/Jackson/Kaun then why did we force feed the post in the second half of the season?
I knew that if Big Dave was our main guy offensively we would be a Round of 32 team. Going small was our best chance to get deep into the tournament.
That has always been my largest criticism of Self. Self wants the highest possible floor for every team. He doesn’t want to go 9-17 or 16-12 or whatever, even if that means artificially capping the potential of certain teams.
KU’s best advantages this year were always playing small with Wilson at the 4 or the 5. They were also at an advantage when they could play with Garrett or Harris and at least three shooters to offset the lack of perimeter shooting from those two guys. And of course, Harris needed to play with four other offensive threats to be sure not to stagnate the offense. That was fairly clear after a handful of games.
Now, if KU does that, I readily admit that it could have all gone very wrong. They probably have a few games where they get smashed on the glass, can’t get stops and ultimately lose by 10-15 points. They went 21-9 this year. I could easily see them losing 4-5 more games if this lineup doesn’t work because playing that small that much makes them vulnerable. That’s a given, and Bill Self doesn’t want to be that vulnerable every night.
But that was the only lineup that would have also given KU any chance of a deep run in this year’s NCAA tournament. So the choice was, essentially, risk a 15 loss season for a chance to get to the Elite Eight or Final Four, or guarantee a 20 win season that won’t make it out of the first weekend.
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@approxinfinity said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 you had me on everything except Harris 40% from 3. Kids form is jacked. It’s going to take seldenesque improvement in shooting form, Marcusian improvement will not suffice.
He’s was 64% this year and I realize the limited sample was wide open looks that he won’t have with increased minutes. His form does need tweaking, but it’s not TGF levels of broken. I really wouldn’t be surprised if he’s at least 37% next season.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 He’s definitely selective with his 3 pt looks. I could see him ending up most years with somewhere between high 30s to even another year like this one similar to aaron miles. He’s not really known as a shooting threat, but has to be just good enough to keep the defense honest.
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Spot on about supporting cast and how that impacts Big Dave’s numbers. Big Dave had NO HELP! He carried those numbers by himself. Our perimeter play became mush as the season progressed. Our guys pretty much forgot how to drive, very little movement (on or off ball screens, etc.) Big D wasn’t choreographed in much of the offense, like what you saw last night by both teams using their bigs on pick and rolls.
As I have said for more than a month… I don’t know how to describe the offense we ran because it had no visible description for what is was… except BROKEN!
The fact that Dave salvaged the stats that he did is simply amazing! And this is coming from a guy who really lacks good footwork. BTW: I hope he paid attention to players like Timme… who lived by his his swivel steps in the post. Dave can learn that. Timme wasn’t an incredible athlete… he just took the time and worked his butt off to develop smoothness in his moves. Give the guy credit for maximizing his potential!
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@justanotherfan said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I knew that if Big Dave was our main guy offensively we would be a Round of 32 team.
Pretty BS stretch to say the tourney loss occurred as you predicted, or that it was due to Dave, not Jalen, being the focal point. So, Wilson at the 4 or 5 with the small guys would have taken us further? You predicted that having Dave at center meant Wilson would barely be able to suit up against USC due to Covid? and that Dave–after heroically propelling us out of the 1st round without Wilson to help–would be playing on a broken foot 2 days later? His being the focal point in Big 12 play meant the guards and wings couldn’t shoot 3s, make layups, rebound, or defend even a lick?
If you foresaw all that, you need to quit law and just buy lottery tickets.
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@mayjay https://kubuckets.com/topic/10358/this-is-a-second-round-team-if-they-keep-playing-mccormick
This is a thread from January.
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I know about that thread. Did the 2nd half of the season play out the way the thread discussed? Who predicted him being a 2nd team Big 12, or the conference’s Most Improved Player?Covid is Dave’s fault? Outside shooting and inability to defend the 3 are Dave’s fault? Who predicted those things?
Forget the title. Look at the specifics…what about Dave’s play was predictable over the last 16 games to lead to the loss?
A title about crappy and lethargic guard play leaving us a 2nd round team would have been more accurate.
Or maybe you all just amazingly predicted everything, or perhaps some of you cannot get past thumping your chests about how right you were that Dave would be the death of the team.
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@mayjay from Feb. 1
“ I honestly can’t believe how bad of a year it has been given how much we returned from last year.
Seems to me Bill put a lot of eggs in the “Dave can be an 18 and 10 guy” basket and that just didn’t pan out. And there was no plan B. But the reality is this team just cannot shoot the damn ball. Braun has gotten super soft. Wilson’s stroke is gone. Garrett and Harris are Garrett and Harris.
They don’t have a Moss or BG off the bench who can come in and provide a spark with a couple of set plays. They don’t have a PG who can force the action a bit. They don’t have a big man who they can throw the ball into and get buckets in a grind it out game.
This team is like playing chess with only pawns and knights. They have no pieces that allow them to attack any differently. Just the same thing over and over and if it doesn’t work, well it is going to be ugly.”
We have shit talked the entire team all year. All some of you read though is Dave and then for some reason you see red.
The point being made is that playing through Dave was not taking this team to the promise land. As @justanotherfan said, going five guards may end up being disastrous, but it is about the only way this team would have a chance to make a deep run.
Then you focus on one game, and use every excuse with it for why we lost except for the reality that this team had a limited upside that a lot of us saw before the season even started, and certainly after the first half of the season.
(This conversation is giving me some KUBuckets in its prime vibes btw).
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@Kcmatt7 I think your post makes it look like I wrote that on Feb 1. To be clear, I never questioned the post strategy.
Now, to particulars: The point is that Dave played much better during Big 12 play, particular the resurgence that took KU to 2nd place from around 6th. We earned a 3 seed based on that surge. You are blaming him for the loss at the finish as if your predictions of his being responsible played out.
Dave went from flailing away to post-season accolades after you wrote this:
@Kcmatt7 said in This is a Second round team if they keep playing McCormick:
But, we shouldn’t be hanging our season on a guy who hasn’t developed much in three years like he is all of a sudden going to turn his season around these last two months.
Maybe you don’t know what Most Improved Player, or 2nd team All Big 12, mean, but it sure seems you are still trying to justify prediction, while the coaches and media and the team itself would laugh you out of the room.
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Dave had a good end to the season and he’s not terrible. He’s got some good offensive moves in the post but he’s not a good shot blocker, struggles to score against length, not a great shooter past the free throw line distance, and he struggled defending pick and rolls. I think the point was, we got a little over focused on playing through him and against elite teams that wasn’t going to pull an upset… I felt like we created a ton of turnovers and were more sound defensively with the small lineup. I would have loved to see a full year commitment to an up tempo style with a small lineup. I think that would have opened up more driving lanes for Garret and wilson. Allowed better spacing for improved looks for braun and ochi. Mix in half court trap and zone like Villanova does occasionally… but Self is an amazing coach so what do I know. I just think the other style had more of a chance to pull some upsets in March. Oh well on to next year!
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@mayjay Who has said “Man we lost to USC because Dave.” Where has that been said? I know I didn’t say that.
I think the 30 point loss to end the season in the round of 32 is about all the justification I need to say I was right about this team and the strategy of playing through Dave though… When you predict something, and it comes true, usually that means you were right. But go ahead and hang an entire argument on one single line of a post.
I just want to reiterate - NOBODY I’ve seen is blaming the USC loss specifically on Dave. If anything people are blaming Self for force feeding him when that was simply not effective enough to make up for all of our other shortcomings.
Again - I am not saying that Dave is the reason we lost the last game.
Just making it clear, I don’t think Dave specifically is why we lost to USC.
P.S. I don’t think Dave cost us that last game by himself.
P.P.S. Really, Dave is not specifically the reason why we lost one single game against USC.
One final time - We didn’t lose the USC game because of Dave.
Okay but seriously Dave isn’t the sole reason we lost to USC.
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@Kcmatt7 Yeah, but he wasn’t the only reason we lost to USC!
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Dave McCormack played GREAT down the stretch. He was as good as he could have possibly been. He played well in most every game, and even came up huge against Eastern Washington in a game we likely lose if he doesn’t play that well.
But again, that’s the problem.
Big Dave played at or near the top of his game and this was a second round team because Big Dave was not a good fit with the rest of this team from a basketball perspective.
Big Dave needs to play with a really athletic power forward that can do the things that are not his strength - mainly rim protection and rebounding. A player like Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua (or Silvio De Sousa) would have been a great compliment to Dave because they would have defended the best interior player from the other team, and provided the rebounding and rim protection necessary to be successful. Once De Sousa was out, KU did not have that anymore.
He also needs creative guys on the perimeter (think a guy like Frank Mason) that can drive and distribute to keep the floor opened up for him. Ideally, that guy is also a really strong defensive player so the other team’s PG can’t constantly put Big Dave into the PnR, where he struggles. Dajuan Harris could do some of that, but because he wasn’t a scoring threat, it limited how effective he was.
And of course, Big Dave needed consistent shooters around him at all times. Other than Braun and Agbaji, this KU team did not have that at all.
So the ideal Big Dave lineup this year would have been McCormack, De Sousa, Braun, Agbaji and a better scoring version of Harris (or a more confident Thompson). You notice that Marcus Garrett and Jalen Wilson, arguably KU’s other top players this year, are not on that list. And that’s where the problems start.
To play Big Dave, you have to basically sit two of your other best three or four players. That’s not sustainable. On the other hand, if you spread the floor and play small with Wilson at the 4 or 5 with a variety of guards around, you end up not really playing Big Dave (except with the above lineup, switching in Wilson for De Sousa and accepting that you are going to give up some rebounds), but the majority of the minutes you play very small.
As I said before, that may have gone horribly. I can clearly see the flaws and the potential to get destroyed defensively and on the glass.
But I can also see a bunch of lineups where teams can’t figure out how to guard Wilson and Garrett at the 5 and 4. Garrett using his quickness and smarts to take advantage of slower bigs that play off him. Wilson dragging 5’s out to the three point line. The other perimeter guys feasting on the open lane, getting drives and backcuts for layups and dunks, or open threes as defenders help when Wilson and Garrett drive.
I can see a scrappy, trapping defense that can switch more or less anything, forcing just enough turnovers and rebounding just enough to create opportunities and keep teams from grinding them in the paint.
Could that type of team make a deep run in the tournament? Yes. Could that type of team miss the tournament entirely? Also yes.
But this is Kansas. We don’t hang banners and hold parades just for making the tournament.
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I think we can all agree that Dave is a good team player and has a valuable skill set with the right personnel around him. I think we run into trouble when people equate perceived absolute value of a player with blame.
