The 4-Out Rotation
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Great point bshark After last years run it has completely changed how I enjoy the team
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McCullar is certainly a “savvy” player. I need to see some increased efficiency on O before I buy in. I know playing for Self is different than playing for his previous coaches though.
At the end of the day, I’m not expecting him to do more than what he has done his previous years. And I’m not sure we need him to. Come in, play good D, rebound, and make the right basketball play. He does those things pretty well. And he does have the ability to go for 25 on a hot night which was something this team needed to add this offseason after losing 2 guys who could do that.
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Updates here from Self’s media availability today from Michael Swain.
“We’re going to have to win by learning how to make [opponents] play worse”
Scrimmage
“I thought we played better than I thought we did live action … We defended at least average. … We got the ball to where it needs to go.”
“It’s hard to say you play poorly when you got the ball where it needed to go.”
Self said the title team had great intangibles. The team was tough and paid attention to the scouting report. Said this year’s team isn’t there yet. Noted it takes time.
Self said Jalen Wilson, Kevin McCullar and Dajuan Harris are championship players.
On the young centers: “Those young kids are young. They weren’t recruited to be [at David McCormack’s level] this young.”
Self said KU misses McCormack and Lightfoot. Noted the young big men have talent but aren’t seasoned.
“We need to score before the defense gets set.”
Self said he wants this team to shoot more 3s than last season.
Self said he sees some similarities between a young Wayne Selden and MJ Rice. Noted MJ will be much better in February than he is now, Will need to play to his athletic ability.
“Our big guys are 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D.” Said nobody has emerged.
On Zach Clemence: “He’s got to be a post presence even though he’s a perimeter post man”
Self said Bobby Pettiford has only been healthy recently. Noted he’s looked good when he’s played. Self said in a perfect world Pettiford will take the backup role behind Harris. If he can’t, it’ll go to McCullar.
On Yesufu: “He has to go score.”
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@kuballin10 said in The 4-Out Rotation:
Great point bshark After last years run it has completely changed how I enjoy the team
It was nice for Self to get another one. I don’t believe we were the best team last year but you never know what will happen in the tournament and it really goes to show how well Self does with experienced teams. Certainly we had some talent, two guys were drafted but no one would mistake that for even one of the top 5 rosters under Self at KU.
Heck Kentucky ran both of the title game participants out of the building but fell to St Peters in the first round. If Kentucky stays healthy they are the best team in the country this year. Still wouldn’t bet on them to win the tournament against the field though.
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@BShark UK’s biggest issue is that somehow Sahvir Wheeler is their starting PG. Basically Naadir Tharpe, but honestly maybe worse than JR Naa lol.
AND I’M SERIOUS WITH THIS TAKE. Wheeler is garbage. They will not win it all with him playing big minutes.
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@Kcmatt7 TOP ROPE take, I’m here for it.
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@BShark said in The 4-Out Rotation:
@kuballin10 said in The 4-Out Rotation:
Great point bshark After last years run it has completely changed how I enjoy the team
It was nice for Self to get another one. I don’t believe we were the best team last year but you never know what will happen in the tournament and it really goes to show how well Self does with experienced teams. Certainly we had some talent, two guys were drafted but no one would mistake that for even one of the top 5 rosters under Self at KU.
Heck Kentucky ran both of the title game participants out of the building but fell to St Peters in the first round. If Kentucky stays healthy they are the best team in the country this year. Still wouldn’t bet on them to win the tournament against the field though.
Disagree about UK being the best team. If everyone stays healthy, I would call Houston the best team in the country. Sasser and Shead might be the best back court in the nation and Sasser is a legit NPOY candidate this season. Plus Kelvin Samspon is also one the top coaches in the country so I think Houston has a very strong chance to return to the Final Four and win a title this season.
As long as Sampson is there, Houston will enter the Big 12 as legit conference contenders along with KU and Baylor.
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Disagree about Houston a bit. Great backcourt but they lost both of their stud bigs that kept them good after Sasser went down with injury. 4 of their top 5 scorers are gone overall as well. I know they have an exciting freshman big in Jerace Walker but he’ll have to be all that to replace what they have lost. Perhaps Roberts takes a step forward, he’s just not very big. The backcourt talent should keep them ranked though
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Great Analysis of the rest of the guys.
We know the steady hand we have at PG but I wanted to mention my concern for playing Harris 35 mpg (if that’s what ends up happening). We’ve seen him wear down at times under heavy minutes in the past. I hope he took this offseason to get into even better shape to handle that kind of workload.
Ideally Bobby stays healthy and gets 7-10 minutes a game of PG duty but we continue to see that staying healthy has been an issue for him. I’m not sure we can count on him but I’m hopeful his injuries are finally behind him. Self mentioned that if Bobby can’t fill the role, McCullar will have play point which I think is even less ideal. This is the one position we cannot afford injury at.
That starting 4 is pretty darn good especially if we can assume certain things:
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Juan will score more and be a more aggressive offensive player while maintaining his ability to control the game.
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McCullar will be a do-it-all type guard/wing while increasing his efficiency on offense across the board.
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Gradey Dick provides that 3-point threat, scores in double figures consistently & defends at a satisfactory level.
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Jalen Wilson is our Alpha, leads the team in scoring & increases his shooting efficiency.
This is probably the core of the team and the offense if we are being honest here.
With the bench, it seems like we are going to need all of them to play and fill to some degree a critical role. I agree Yesufu could take on the veteran spark plug role we’ve seen Moss/JCL etc fill recently. I’m confident we see a much-improved version of Joe just from a confidence/understanding/fit on this team. I’m really pulling for him.
KJ is a fun player athletically who gained some valuable trust defensively as a freshman. I have major concerns about how teams will defend KU if he’s on the court with Juan. I can see teams playing off both and making it difficult to score. KJ is simply going to have to make plays and use his athleticism to his advantage. We might see KJ play a variety of roles/positions. He’s a really good utility weapon to have.
Pettiford already mentioned his importance at the backup PG spot. We need to see him out there, availability has been an issue which is unfortunate because he showed some real promise. Hopefully that perimeter shot has improved as well.
I have to say I’m a bit shocked MJ hasn’t picked it up as quickly as I thought he would. Seems like he’s in Self’s toughening box already and one we are likely to see some growing pains with. He signed up for hard coaching and I hope he comes out the other side of it a better man. We know the immense talent is there, the body is already chiseled and strong like a 5th year Sr so it’s all about him plugging himself in and helping the team. Rice’s improvement over the season will be interesting & critical to monitor.
Overall I think we have to lean on Jalen to be the go-to guy. Why else would he have come back when he could have left with all of his buddies on top? And the versatility in his game with some improved efficiency makes me think he can be that 16-18 pt scorer every night. We saw his FT shooting improve a ton over last season & he’s good at drawing fouls. If that trey ball can hit around 35% he’s going to score a bunch.
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@BeddieKU23 Yea I kind of think MJ Rice is the piece that this team needs to buy in by February the most if they want to try to go back to back. I think Bill ultimately gets production out of the 5. So then it is down to if we can find that key piece off of the bench all good teams have. Bobby and Joe are fine, but they probably aren’t coming in and dominating a game from the bench. MJ (in theory) has the ability to come in at the 12 minute mark and put up 12 points by half time.
If I had to bet, we will see MJs role expand as the season goes on. But it will be very dependent on him coming into the game and being remotely interested in playing defense and actually running the offense.
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@BeddieKU23 Agree with this. Bill’s comment about Juan, McCullar and JWill being championship level players was telling. We were all assuming it would be the case but it will be quite shocking if any of them are under 33 minutes a game I feel. There is also a reason that these 3 have been on all the social media stuff. They are the face of the team, and Jalen will definitely have a large shot load.
I eagerly await the Dajuan/KJ line-up where neither team scores for 4 minutes.
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@BShark said in The 4-Out Rotation:
@BeddieKU23 Agree with this. Bill’s comment about Juan, McCullar and JWill being championship level players was telling. We were all assuming it would be the case but it will be quite shocking if any of them are under 33 minutes a game I feel. There is also a reason that these 3 have been on all the social media stuff. They are the face of the team, and Jalen will definitely have a large shot load.
I eagerly await the Dajuan/KJ line-up where neither team scores for 4 minutes.
Can’t wait to see the DaJuan, Bobby, McCullar, KJ and Udeh lineup for the first time.
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Did Self really imply somewhere that Dick is a day 1 starter? Surprising to me. I guess time will tell but I just don’t think he is ready for that starting spot and still think Bobby has a good shot to grab it if healthy.
Excited for the season! Rock Chalk.
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@RockkChalkk Day 1 Gradey Dick is a better player than a year 2 Bobby Pettiford that was less than 100% for most of the off-season.
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Totally agree on the legit of Houston.
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I’ve been high on Gradey for two years! The kid is going to be a big-time player… but he is under pressure. Too many expectations early. I wish people would back off him.
Expect a huge slump somewhere in his freshman year. If we expect it, maybe it doesn’t happen!
Concerning Rice… I bet 95% of those top tier recruits come into college with unrealistic expectations. It’s part of the college coaching experience to help them find a healthy attitude. I think we should just give him space… like Gradey… and lets see what happens!
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in The 4-Out Rotation:
@RockkChalkk Day 1 Gradey Dick is a better player than a year 2 Bobby Pettiford that was less than 100% for most of the off-season.
I get that is your opinion and the same opinion of many on here. I don’t deny that I’m in the minority here. But did the man who matters most, HCBS, state that he is a Day 1 starter somewhere?
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@RockkChalkk said in The 4-Out Rotation:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in The 4-Out Rotation:
@RockkChalkk Day 1 Gradey Dick is a better player than a year 2 Bobby Pettiford that was less than 100% for most of the off-season.
I get that is your opinion and the same opinion of many on here. I don’t deny that I’m in the minority here. But did the man who matters most, HCBS, state that he is a Day 1 starter somewhere?
Yes, he kind of said he’d be in the starting 5.
Self said Wednesday that the three players who attended media day with him — Harris, McCullar and Wilson — were all slated to start, “unless something happens,” and added that freshman guard Gradey Dick was likely headed toward being named a starter, as well.
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regarding Gradey… we really need a shooter in the starting 5. IMO he’s gotta start.
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@rockchalkjayhawk Gradey might start but I think Joe finishes
Bigs wise: Clemence starts but KJ and Zuby I think get serious chances. Udeh may be our best defender with his length but from what I’ve seen Zuby is like trob (not offensively yet) - the ball just bounced his way as he gets 10-12 rebounds. Dude is an animal on the boards.
Going to be fun to watch how two time ncaa champ coach figures this out.
We got some serious talent when even a guy like MJ might struggle to get solid minutes.
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@RockkChalkk He basically did at Late Night right?
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I have it Juando, McCullars, Wilson and Dick. I have Zach playing a platoon role at C. The interesting part is how does he work in MJ,BP,Zuby, Udeh, Joe, and of course KJ. 11 deep- who is going to sit? Looks like you have 30 minutes for Juando, McCullars, and Wilson. No idea how he is going to keep everyone happy, or will he?
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@Jethro One of the bigs you listed will for sure not play. Early on maybe Bill tries to feel things out but it won’t be 4 guys by January. The other one out of that group that won’t play is a tough call.
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Agree about Rice and the 5 position.
Listening to Joe’s interview from media day was positive. Just seems like a great kid & easy to root for. Seems like he knows his role now which is to score, something he came to KU knowing how to do but hasn’t really shown. I think Joe & MJ have the ability to provide the bench scoring this team needs on a consistent basis.
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@Kcmatt7 I didn’t see late night which is probably why i was uninformed, lol. Appreciate everyone keeping me up to speed with this stuff.
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It makes a lot of sense optically for Gradey to start here too. I’m sure he’s earned the spot but for future recruits like him, it’s always good for biz when you can sell to these kids that they can compete and start as freshman.
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I think we don’t know enough behind the scenes stuff on these guys to adequately predict minutes. I remember how almost everyone thought it was a huge mistake to give Dajuan minutes at PG.
We aren’t at practice to see which players pickup coaching best. Some players just “click” with Self.
Gradey seems like he might be a high basketball IQ guy. I’m guessing here that he is on the “Self fast-track” path.
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@drgnslayr Some people might STILL argue it was a mistake to give Dajuan minutes even though we won the whole thing. Those people will be back this year claiming MJ should be getting more minutes over Dajuan. He doesn’t make the obviously outstanding plays so he will always be underappreciated.
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I don’t expect people to want MJ over DaJuan. But if Bobby starts playing really well or something you’ll definitely hear it.
Harris DOES need to be better this year though. He has to shoot and score more, and be a go-to guy in some clutch situation.
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@Kcmatt7 said in The 4-Out Rotation:
I don’t expect people to want MJ over DaJuan. But if Bobby starts playing really well or something you’ll definitely hear it.
Harris DOES need to be better this year though. He has to shoot and score more, and be a go-to guy in some clutch situation.
Supposedly the staff thinks he is on track for this. I need to see it in games.
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@BShark In the staff’s defense, they have absolutely crushed it with PGs outside of Naa and Garrett seasons.
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I think Harris will produce more points this year… but whatever happens, happens. His responsibility isn’t to score, but to run the show.
I remember when we pushed Sherron for more offense… and how that went… and he was a more skilled scorer who had some body for his drives.
I hope Harris spends more time working out offense with other players… earning himself some assists.
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@drgnslayr said in The 4-Out Rotation:
I think Harris will produce more points this year… but whatever happens, happens. His responsibility isn’t to score, but to run the show.
I remember when we pushed Sherron for more offense… and how that went… and he was a more skilled scorer who had some body for his drives.
I hope Harris spends more time working out offense with other players… earning himself some assists.
I think he just needs to get to around 9ppg if this team is going to get close to their ceiling.
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I am betting high on Joe Y. He has the skill set to become a solid scorer for us.
Last year he struggled with several issues, new to Self’s-system, health, not defined role etc.
This year Self has defined his role and I am certain that he has been at it in the offseason.
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@benshawks08 said in The 4-Out Rotation:
@drgnslayr Some people might STILL argue it was a mistake to give Dajuan minutes even though we won the whole thing. Those people will be back this year claiming MJ should be getting more minutes over Dajuan. He doesn’t make the obviously outstanding plays so he will always be underappreciated.
We as KU fans are pretty much used to PGs or lead guards that can offer more than what Dajuan offers. Better shooting, scoring, fancy passes, better size, strength, etc. So, it is what it is. I was one of those guys lined up last year to give more minutes to other guys for sure. I’ll likely be the same guy this year
If we have the ponies around him that can provide things he cannot while he’s on the floor, great. If not, maybe fewer minutes for Dajuan, and more or some minutes at least to guys with a more well rounded game.
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I understand what you are saying… but there is no better contribution at PG than being part of a national championship.
We all like to see guys capable of scoring… it just isn’t always the best contribution they can make, especially at PG.
I know I’m down for another championship year where Juan only scores a little but we double up our titles.
None of our other 4 players should feel like they can go on cruise control because Juan is now a threat. They all should feel like his points are totally bonus points.
Juan definitely needs to think team offense first, before he gets his points… though… when there is a clear out on the side he likes to drive and he’s facing someone he feels he can take… he should take it! When he gets that wide open trey shot he needs to put it up for a heat check. If he’s hot… keep shooting it. If he feels it, keep shooting it.
We don’t want to pressure him for points. That would be a disaster. He has to keep his focus first on team.
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@rockchalkjayhawk said in The 4-Out Rotation:
@benshawks08 said in The 4-Out Rotation:
@drgnslayr Some people might STILL argue it was a mistake to give Dajuan minutes even though we won the whole thing. Those people will be back this year claiming MJ should be getting more minutes over Dajuan. He doesn’t make the obviously outstanding plays so he will always be underappreciated.
We as KU fans are pretty much used to PGs or lead guards that can offer more than what Dajuan offers. Better shooting, scoring, fancy passes, better size, strength, etc. So, it is what it is. I was one of those guys lined up last year to give more minutes to other guys for sure. I’ll likely be the same guy this year
If we have the ponies around him that can provide things he cannot while he’s on the floor, great. If not, maybe fewer minutes for Dajuan, and more or some minutes at least to guys with a more well rounded game.
Here’s something else to consider that completely runs counter to this belief. Self has won two national championships with starting PG’s that were considered the 4th or 5th scoring option while on the floor. Each was more concerned with facilitating the offense and playing great defense leading to a lot of easy points for their teammates.
We might be more accustomed to Self teams with a lead guard that can score whenever he wants, but his most successful teams were the two that had playmakers rather than scorers running the show.
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@drgnslayr said in The 4-Out Rotation:
I understand what you are saying… but there is no better contribution at PG than being part of a national championship.
We all like to see guys capable of scoring… it just isn’t always the best contribution they can make, especially at PG.
I know I’m down for another championship year where Juan only scores a little but we double up our titles.
None of our other 4 players should feel like they can go on cruise control because Juan is now a threat. They all should feel like his points are totally bonus points.
Juan definitely needs to think team offense first, before he gets his points… though… when there is a clear out on the side he likes to drive and he’s facing someone he feels he can take… he should take it! When he gets that wide open trey shot he needs to put it up for a heat check. If he’s hot… keep shooting it. If he feels it, keep shooting it.
We don’t want to pressure him for points. That would be a disaster. He has to keep his focus first on team.
Sure, all well said @drgnslayr
I’m down with Dajuan. He fits in well with the team. We may be scoring deprived early on this year, so we’ll need some production from somewhere, incuding DH.
So, no bashing yet. Onward and upward.
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Don’t forget his D.
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Juando will be just fine. Team basketball requires someone to get the ball to the right players at the right spot at the right time, and he does that very well. He also defends very well most of the time. We need his experience on the floor. I know people are going to crow about his offense, but I would rather he play within himself, keep taking his 4 or 5 shots a game and help somebody else get a good shot.
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Just some random thoughts. Was listening to Swain in a podcast with Bossi , 1st my thoughts , as we know or have heard right now not really anyone standing out at the five. So call me crazy and probably won’t happen But I’m a Zuby Ejiofor guy. - He is dam man Was also listening to what Bossi said about him. - Bossi says He has tremendous activity around the rim , Crashes the boards and attacks the rim. Destined to do some really good things during his time at KU - -more fluid then Ernest - -has a mid range jumper Zuby can play some 4. - -Bossi said reminds him of T-Rob Body - -Size - - Activity around the rim -Gonna be hard to keep him off the floor.
I think for awhile were gonna see the 5 by Committee -don’t get me wrong like Ernest too - - Ernest just a little more raw offensively, Bossi also said about Ernest he at times takes things to heart a little to much - -confidence might get down. - -To me he better toughen up if that’s the case cause Coach Self can get kinda hard at times and as we know you get in his dog house hard to get out.
Like I said In Reality I don’t think Zuby wins out -probably Zach - -just kinda my pick- right now anyways - - Think in time were gonna be blessed with these guys if they all stick around… Another thing Bossi was asked - -how he seen them playing together , and he said it was kind of hard to say because he said a lot of these guys won’t be playing with some of these guys when they came in because of various things the portal and such. Said you could almost count on transfers just the way it is - - we shall see
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@jayballer67 said in The 4-Out Rotation:
Just some random thoughts. Was listening to Swain in a podcast with Bossi , 1st my thoughts , as we know or have heard right now not really anyone standing out at the five. So call me crazy and probably won’t happen But I’m a Zuby Ejiofor guy. - He is dam man Was also listening to what Bossi said about him. - Bossi says He has tremendous activity around the rim , Crashes the boards and attacks the rim. Destined to do some really good things during his time at KU - -more fluid then Ernest - -has a mid range jumper Zuby can play some 4. - -Bossi said reminds him of T-Rob Body - -Size - - Activity around the rim -Gonna be hard to keep him off the floor.
I think for awhile were gonna see the 5 by Committee -don’t get me wrong like Ernest too - - Ernest just a little more raw offensively, Bossi also said about Ernest he at times takes things to heart a little to much - -confidence might get down. - -To me he better toughen up if that’s the case cause Coach Self can get kinda hard at times and as we know you get in his dog house hard to get out.
Like I said In Reality I don’t think Zuby wins out -probably Zach - -just kinda my pick- right now anyways - - Think in time were gonna be blessed with these guys if they all stick around… Another thing Bossi was asked - -how he seen them playing together , and he said it was kind of hard to say because he said a lot of these guys won’t be playing with some of these guys when they came in because of various things the portal and such. Said you could almost count on transfers just the way it is - - we shall see
Count me on the Zuby train. At some point, he’s going to figure out what to do. Then that elite athleticism is going to take over, and he’s going to be really good.
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The time for us to bug Dajuan to score more is when he puts up some high %s… like 40% from trey!
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@rockchalkjayhawk I’ve been saying trob but txhawk claimed no way
Clemence KJ/Zuby
Hearing from the scrimmage TJ for Illini and Skyy were guard isn’t ideal but Self I’m sure was all over with lineups
Encouraging is he said Joe was really really good and for us to be good we need good Joe
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I’ll be happy if he can float into that 7-10 ppg range nightly for the rest of his career here. That keeps a defense somewhat honest.
The biggest thing I want to see from him on offense going forward is getting to the FT line. I think he has the lowest FT % rate of any starter that’s ever played under Self. He has 34 FT attempts in over 1600 minutes so far at KU. He simply has to get better at this. Easy points are there for him if he’s savvy enough to take advantage.
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@BeddieKU23 said in The 4-Out Rotation:
I’ll be happy if he can float into that 7-10 ppg range nightly for the rest of his career here. That keeps a defense somewhat honest.
The biggest thing I want to see from him on offense going forward is getting to the FT line. I think he has the lowest FT % rate of any starter that’s ever played under Self. He has 34 FT attempts in over 1600 minutes so far at KU. He simply has to get better at this. Easy points are there for him if he’s savvy enough to take advantage.
Bingo. Just want him to make the defense be honest. We do not have a Remy to come in off the bench to make up for the lack of scoring from him.
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Good perspective!
I think opposing PGs tended to fall back and not play him tight… challenging him to pump up treys. I think if he puts up better trey numbers the defense will play him tighter and it should send him to the line more.
Otherwise… he can get there by penetrating more. I’m not sure that is what Self wanted. He had CB, Och and Wilson for that.
I expect his game to shift to what the team needs. Hard to say he wasn’t effective last year since we won it all.
Your idea is a solid argument… I’m on “wait and see” mode now… and will better evaluate after I see this team play some games first.
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Self swears by this kid. He says he’s improved again. I’m interested to see what exactly he’s improved at. We know he’s a great game manager with a good supporting cast but now that role changes without the same cast. He’s a vet, he’s trusted, he’ll have the ball in his hands. His growth/improvement at least in my eyes shifts to other parts of the position. Agree if he proves a reliable shooter then the defense shifts. I’m interested to see as well and eagerly awaiting games to see what “more” he can bring.
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If he learns to drive and dish a bit later, his FT opportunities should increase.
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I think he mostly has more confidence. And he will do whatever Self asks of him. If Self advises him to be more aggressive as a scorer… he will! I do hope he’s worked on being more aggressive and put up some serious trey reps in the off-season.
