NOA response from KU discussion
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The EXTREMELY tl;dr version is that KU is fighting on mostly substance, not technical grounds. The signal is nobody admitted to any wrongdoing and if we did prove it or we’re taking this to SCOTUS if we have to.
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@BeddieKU23 Thanks for your work on this.
The Norlander Tweet really what we’ve been saying for years when we heard Zion’s mom wanted a house from us, so he went to Duke instead, presumably to get something better.
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@wissox It would be interesting to know how Zion’s mother was living before he got his NBA money, now wouldn’t it?
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I was just thinking about this topic. Glad you started it @BeddieKU23. I read an article on yahoo about KU fighting back against the NCAA. The writer felt that the NCAA would prevail and spank KU pretty good. I’m wandering if this is one of those moments that changes everything? One would have to believe that this epic battle between KU and the NCAA is on the minds of all the power schools.
There has already been rumblings in the rank and file schools that maybe the NCAA has outlived its purpose, or does such a poor job (see the Tar Heel grade scandal) that it’s time for a change, or something new. With the explosion of the media deals the power conferences are receiving? Who really needs the NCAA anymore?
I guess the 300 pound gorilla in the room is, “what purpose does the NCAA really serve”? Other than the NCAA tournament, which the Ncaa makes big time money from. What does it really do? It seems to most the NCAA is a waste of money, and lacks real leadership. In fact some would say the NCAA shows a Bias towards certain schools. This is why I think think KU is fighting back so hard.
Could KU kill the NCAA as we know it?
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Reading some again.
Still on Coach T’s response and they break down case precedent for his violations. T is charged with level 1 which is the most serious. Case Precedent here would drop his allegations, if any of them were actually violations to Level 3.
It was repeated many times that they lacked precedent in these charges
Its ludicrous the NCAA went to level 1 with T.
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@DoubleDD said in NOA response from KU discussion:
I was just thinking about this topic. Glad you started it @BeddieKU23. I read an article on yahoo about KU fighting back against the NCAA. The writer felt that the NCAA would prevail and spank KU pretty good. I’m wandering if this is one of those moments that changes everything? One would have to believe that this epic battle between KU and the NCAA is on the minds of all the power schools.
There has already been rumblings in the rank and file schools that maybe the NCAA has outlived its purpose, or does such a poor job (see the Tar Heel grade scandal) that it’s time for a change, or something new. With the explosion of the media deals the power conferences are receiving? Who really needs the NCAA anymore?
I guess the 300 pound gorilla in the room is, “what purpose does the NCAA really serve”? Other than the NCAA tournament, which the Ncaa makes big time money from. What does it really do? It seems to most the NCAA is a waste of money, and lacks real leadership. In fact some would say the NCAA shows a Bias towards certain schools. This is why I think think KU is fighting back so hard.
Could KU kill the NCAA as we know it?
Simple response to your question about KU killing the NCAA. The answer is a big fat no… The fact is there is to much against KU, think this is the time the NCAA has to try to save face and we are the proverbial lamb/ the Sacrafice. There is no way in Hell we walk from this unscathed . The NCAA charged us with FIVE level 1 charges which is the most severe charge. They were taking about this on our sports programming here in Topeka, general concensus that we will be hit with a post season Ban
They had people on from Rock ChalkTalk - - they had CJ Moore on and others. They feel that Coach Townsend is the one that is in the most danger/trouble - -More then Coach Self . To many people calling out the NCAA to step up and follow through. Basically calling out the NCAA to stand up and act like they had a pair. KU the biggest fish and want to make an example about how they not going to tolerate. Talked about exactly what year we would face the post Season ban as this thing is going to drag out for some time. Loos like most likely they think possibility of Coach Self having to serve like possibly a 6 game suspension Coach Townsend on like a 10 year what’s it call? - -So Cause?- na that’s not it is it? any ways real possibility of 10 yr and possibility of having games stripped. - -Myself I think yes we will get a post Season Ban , they leveled FIVE level one’s gives them some le-way to neogiate . - -we will for sure be hit most likely the postseason , maybe cost us some off campus recruiting I think will be the extent
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In Self’s response I thought they did a great job of ripping apart the allegations against him and that Gassnola or Adidas was a booster. They ask if these people were boosters then provide evidence when they started being boosters. The NCAA definitely failed to disclose any information regarding that
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Booom
Under NCAA head coach control legislation, head coaches are presumed responsible for violations committed by those who report to them, i.e., assistant coaches and other staff members who report to the coach." Based on publicly available information, all of the schools implicated in the SDNY cases—with the exception of KU—appear to have a coach involved in either accepting or providing money for an illicit purpose, thereby implicating the head coach at those schools under the head coach control legislation. But that theory of head coach responsibility is not available in the KU case because neither Self nor anyone on his coaching staff knew of or was involved in any alleged illicit payments. Moreover, Adidas, Gatto, Gassnola, Code and Cutler are not members of Self s staff and, therefore, Self is not responsible for their actions and conduct which may violate NCAA rules
However, no evidence was adduced in either the federal criminal trial or the record developed by the enforcement staffs investigation that demonstrates clearly and credibly that KU, Self, or his staff were aware that Adidas employees and consultants were boosters.
In fact, under the sponsorship relationship between Adidas and KU, it was actually KU’ s obligation to promote Adidas.
Adidas and KU had a Legitimate Arms’ - Length Sponsorship Agreement Beginning in 2005, Adidas and KU entered into an arms’-length sponsorship agreement which contractually required that Adidas pay KU monies and provide goods and services in return for KU promoting and marketing the Adidas brand — not for Adidas promoting KU’s athletics program.
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@jayballer73 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@DoubleDD said in NOA response from KU discussion:
I was just thinking about this topic. Glad you started it @BeddieKU23. I read an article on yahoo about KU fighting back against the NCAA. The writer felt that the NCAA would prevail and spank KU pretty good. I’m wandering if this is one of those moments that changes everything? One would have to believe that this epic battle between KU and the NCAA is on the minds of all the power schools.
There has already been rumblings in the rank and file schools that maybe the NCAA has outlived its purpose, or does such a poor job (see the Tar Heel grade scandal) that it’s time for a change, or something new. With the explosion of the media deals the power conferences are receiving? Who really needs the NCAA anymore?
I guess the 300 pound gorilla in the room is, “what purpose does the NCAA really serve”? Other than the NCAA tournament, which the Ncaa makes big time money from. What does it really do? It seems to most the NCAA is a waste of money, and lacks real leadership. In fact some would say the NCAA shows a Bias towards certain schools. This is why I think think KU is fighting back so hard.
Could KU kill the NCAA as we know it?
Simple response to your question about KU killing the NCAA. The answer is a big fat no… The fact is there is to much against KU, think this is the time the NCAA has to try to save face and we are the proverbial lamb/ the Sacrafice. There is no way in Hell we walk from this unscathed . The NCAA charged us with FIVE level 1 charges which is the most severe charge. They were taking about this on our sports programming here in Topeka, general concensus that we will be hit with a post season Ban
They had people on from Rock ChalkTalk - - they had CJ Moore on and others. They feel that Coach Townsend is the one that is in the most danger/trouble - -More then Coach Self . To many people calling out the NCAA to step up and follow through. Basically calling out the NCAA to stand up and act like they had a pair. KU the biggest fish and want to make an example about how they not going to tolerate. Talked about exactly what year we would face the post Season ban as this thing is going to drag out for some time. Loos like most likely they think possibility of Coach Self having to serve like possibly a 6 game suspension Coach Townsend on like a 10 year what’s it call? - -So Cause?- na that’s not it is it? any ways real possibility of 10 yr and possibility of having games stripped. - -Myself I think yes we will get a post Season Ban , they leveled FIVE level one’s gives them some le-way to neogiate . - -we will for sure be hit most likely the postseason , maybe cost us some off campus recruiting I think will be the extent
Yea I agree the NCAA is grasping for some form of respect, but I think that reads into my point of view. I have no doubt that if the NCAA throws the book at KU? Look for a law suit. I believe North Carolina is in the same boat here. I think this is going to get ugly, before it gets better.
Maybe the NCAA doesn’t go away, but I bet there will be some major changes to the power structure.
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What do I think? Townsend will be the fall guy, no longer coaching in college basketball (replaced by Manning), Self will be censored, and we will have to vacate not only our conference title and Final 4 appearance from '17-'18 but also give up scholarships for a three year period.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Nothing bad. Lots of spring things & repairing to do!
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It will be very interesting to see what path this goes down. The NCAA as KU pointed did jump to conclusions and break their own rules. Also sounds like 90% of dirt on KU comes from Zions recruitment which they have apparently refused to look at. Also they had pretty much put the hush hush on Arizona tho supposedly they have a recording of Miller talking about giving Ayton 100k. Miller was so guilty he even said good bye to fans after last season but nothing has come of it. At this point it plenty obvious that a good chunk of schools are breaking rules. Over 60 were listed in this probe. If they only go after KU, I’d expect a discrimination law suit at this point. It looks really bad for them that none of the Nike schools that have dirt are being punished. That’s before you get into UNCs fake class scandal having zero consequences. I’ll just called like I see it Nike is funneling money to the NCAA some how. I’d pretty much put my life on it.
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Most of this surrounds around Gassnola and him being labeled a booster to the KU program.
The zion part was cherry picked from texts and is one of the few allegations that have absolutely zero merit or evidence to back up anything. If anything the only evidence collected contradicts their own allegations.
You did get one thing right, this was severe overreach but its probably not going to matter. This is the sham of the NCAA
I really hope KU takes this to court
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When you are not only judge, jury and executioner, but also run the investigation and decide who gets investigated…that’s the best way to fairness in my experience. Lol
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@DoubleDD said in NOA response from KU discussion:
I guess the 300 pound gorilla in the room is, “what purpose does the NCAA really serve”?
It seems to most the NCAA is a waste of money, and lacks real leadership. In fact some would say the NCAA shows a Bias towards certain schools. This is why I think think KU is fighting back so hard.
Could KU kill the NCAA as we know it?
Kill it!
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Avenatti is a Dem and lawyer Ass, but he was on to something with Nike.
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@Bwag Sure he was, no doubt. And now he is also on to jail.
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@Bwag Gotta like the Mafia-style sales pitch, though. “I found a problem for you. A few mil and it goes away.”
He didn’t understand that the mob has an alternative when they offer a deal that makes it one “that they can’t refuse.”
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The NCAA has gone big game hunting on this one. They want to flex their muscle a little bit and I think they are using KU as a test case. Of course, the money is all about to be on top of the table now, but I think that’s the NCAA’s plan - see if they can punish a school for the actions of a ShoeCo. Of course, that opens a whole other can of worms, but when you’re fishing anyway…
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I see this case as the NCAA trying to posture their perceived strength in front of the D1 audience.
This will boil down to a case of chicken… will Kansas bring this into the courtroom? I’m betting they will continue to show their answer as “yes” and if the NCAA is smart, they will find a cleaver way to save face and drop this nonsense.
To some degree, Kansas has already faced vetting in a criminal case and came out “the victim.” I like their chances in civil court. The NCAA can’t continue coming into a courtroom and having their privacy jurisdiction pierced. Every time this happens, their protection as a private organization becomes weaker and weaker and weaker…
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Just a quick observation: KU depending on the appeal of the federal case not being final sort of depends on that case not becoming final while ours is still pending. What happens if it does?
I am also wondering something about my fellow readers: how many of you supporting KU’s objection to the NCAA’s use of the not-technically-admissible evidence have ever expressed anger about a criminal defendant getting off on a technicality if a judge threw out a technically illegal search?
I am a full defender of the exclusionary rule, but I seem to vaguely recall that not everyone is…
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@mayjay I would feel better not getting off on a technicality; it doesn’t look like the NCAA will follow their own guidelines, so it may be moot. It looks to me like the NCAA will penalize KU and KU will have to fight it in court if they want a favorable outcome. Problem is I don’t know if they can get a favorable outcome. If Adidas is allowed to give money to kids for KU and KU doesn’t get in trouble then it’ll open it wide up for the shoecos to fully run college basketball openly. The NCAA wants to maintain its control over member institutions and more importantly it’s cash cow the NCAA tournament. But if KU wins they may ultimately lose by allowing NIKE to openly buy players on a scale ADIDAS may not be able to.
Personally I just want it cleaned up to a point we can pretend it’s amateur athletics.
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@dylans “Personally I just want it cleaned up to a point we can pretend it’s amateur athletics.”
While we’re at it, let’s clean up politics to where we can pretend they’re not all crooks. And stupid.
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@mayjay said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Just a quick observation: KU depending on the appeal of the federal case not being final sort of depends on that case not becoming final while ours is still pending. What happens if it does?
I am also wondering something about my fellow readers: how many of you supporting KU’s objection to the NCAA’s use of the not-technically-admissible evidence have ever expressed anger about a criminal defendant getting off on a technicality if a judge threw out a technically illegal search?
I am a full defender of the exclusionary rule, but I seem to vaguely recall that not everyone is…
The NCAA is not the US legal system though and don’t abide by the same rules when it comes to making decisions and handing out punishments.
I do support the exclusionary rule because it does protect people from having their 4th amendment rights violated, but since the NCAA doesn’t operate by the same rules, neither should KU in this case.
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@nuleafjhawk I think it is impossible to get rid of corruption in politics.
Stupidity in politics is a good target if you can tell me how to fix stupid in the voters!
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Interesting timing. The NCAA lowers the boom on Siena on the eve of their conference tournament. A glimpse of things to come?
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Associated Press LOUDONVILLE, N.Y -- Siena College has been handed a three-year probation and a $5,000 fine for violations an NCAA investigation of the program found under former men's basketball coach Jimmy Patsos.The NCAA found that Patsos provided impermissible benefits, including payments to players.
According to the NCAA Committee on Infractions, Patsos gave cash to student-athletes in the locker room after several games over the final three years he served as head coach. Payments ranged from $60 to $100 or more. The committee said the former coach did not seek guidance from the school’s compliance staff but he acknowledged some of the violations and said he misunderstood NCAA rules.
Siena, a private Catholic school outside the New York state capital of Albany, self-reported the violations a year-and-a-half ago.
The NCAA said that during the probation Siena must disassociate itself with an unnamed booster who interfered in the probe.
Punishment for the Level II violations vacates 46 wins from the final three seasons Patsos was head coach. He resigned after the 2017-18 season amid a wide-ranging investigation by the school that unearthed allegations of problems ranging from abusive conduct to financial improprieties within the men’s basketball program.
The NCAA also levied a three-year, show-cause order against Patsos, meaning that any NCAA member school that hires him must restrict him from athletically related duties unless it can demonstrate why the restrictions should not apply.
The committee announced its findings Monday, on the eve of the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference tournament in Atlantic City, New Jersey. Siena is the top seed after winning the regular-season title.
Siena athletic director John D’Argenio said the school has two weeks to respond to the NCAA.
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Wonder if any students were retained from then, and if they got “Silvio-ed” for receiving that cash?
I love the defense–“didn’t know I couldn’t give cash to my players.” Anyone hiring this clown should just be put on probation for being stupid.
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I reckon this one will have a direct impact on KU’s. Involves Gassnola and booster status.
https://www.si.com/college/2020/04/08/nc-state-ncaa-investigation-dennis-smith
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Just finished watching the scheme on HBO, the FBI’s case is really quite laughable. They pretty much dropped the hammer on Dawkins because they needed to on someone. Definitely some eye opening stuff. Like a wire tap Sean Miller saying Ayton is costing him 10k a month. It pretty much confirmed what I think is happening. NIKE is paying the NCAA hundreds of millions or more to not look into NIKE’s main schools. Will Wade also looks super guilty. Wasn’t really anything on KU, UK, UNC or Dook in it. I’m no law professor but having a head coach on tape saying stuff like that but the NCAA doing nothing sounds like discrimination by definition.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@mayjay said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Just a quick observation: KU depending on the appeal of the federal case not being final sort of depends on that case not becoming final while ours is still pending. What happens if it does?
I am also wondering something about my fellow readers: how many of you supporting KU’s objection to the NCAA’s use of the not-technically-admissible evidence have ever expressed anger about a criminal defendant getting off on a technicality if a judge threw out a technically illegal search?
I am a full defender of the exclusionary rule, but I seem to vaguely recall that not everyone is…
The NCAA is not the US legal system though and don’t abide by the same rules when it comes to making decisions and handing out punishments.
I do support the exclusionary rule because it does protect people from having their 4th amendment rights violated, but since the NCAA doesn’t operate by the same rules, neither should KU in this case.
And that is the problem with the NCAA, it does not operate by or follow the same rules - tyrannical, and - an arguement could be made - even anti-American.
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@mayjay said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@nuleafjhawk I think it is impossible to get rid of corruption in politics.
Stupidity in politics is a good target if you can tell me how to fix stupid in the voters!
Maybe the voters have been and are being stupid due to their having no choice but to be? Not a big fan of our political class.
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Time to go to war. https://twitter.com/sethdavishoops/status/1258093496734384128?s=21
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Party time.
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@BShark you know anything?
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Obviously the response from the NCAA will be a laugher. They will double down
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just came across in the last 15 minutes. Listening to local sports talk. Ku responding to the NCAA 'S response - - 92 pages they will be going over soon
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@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Obviously the response from the NCAA will be a laugher. They will double down
I’m skimming it quick, and they have jack shit. They’ve never said shoe cos were boosters in any other case ever. They’re basically saying Gassnola perjured himself with no proof in pinning the violations on Self and Townsend. Even Mike Bray is like whoa there this is routine business you’re turning into L1 violations with no additional guidance telling us what we’re doing is wrong.
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What a giant crock of shit the NCAA’s response is. To be expected of course but still.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Obviously the response from the NCAA will be a laugher. They will double down
I’m skimming it quick, and they have jack shit. They’ve never said shoe cos were boosters in any other case ever. They’re basically saying Gassnola perjured himself with no proof in pinning the violations on Self and Townsend. Even Mike Bray is like whoa there this is routine business you’re turning into L1 violations with no additional guidance telling us what we’re doing is wrong.
They are looking at KU to make a Standard lol., KU was ingracious - - -severe violations and KU was undermining ,that KU was taking a defiant posture BOY we reaching now lol. - -they were talking about this on the local sports talk , so might not have been the EXACT words but it was the jest of what the NCAA was talking about.
Talking about on the Football how Beaty was aware of Activity and even supporting things - -holy crap Batman
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Just checked in with one of my main guys at KU. They’re going at this until the bitter end with the full support of donors.
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You guys make me feel a lil better! It’s hard to be sitting home except to occasionally getting groceries and to worry about everything, even Matt’s wedding!
did mike bray just speak out? Is this next step w/ncaa or their appeal committee we met w/about Silvio.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Just checked in with one of my main guys at KU. They’re going at this until the bitter end with the full support of donors.
Good, this should be the stance. Seems like most if not all of what the NCAA has is from the trial.
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I sure hope they go at this with everything. I knew they will double down on their bull crap and it still angers me to no end that they actually think what they are saying is true. Sad organization
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Obviously the response from the NCAA will be a laugher. They will double down
I’m skimming it quick, and they have jack shit. They’ve never said shoe cos were boosters in any other case ever. They’re basically saying Gassnola perjured himself with no proof in pinning the violations on Self and Townsend. Even Mike Bray is like whoa there this is routine business you’re turning into L1 violations with no additional guidance telling us what we’re doing is wrong.
This was about as predictable as the sun coming up. The old man club must die
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SN going full wtf is the NCAA thinking https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/ncaa-response-to-kansas-bill-self-shows-confidence-in-its-case-but-not-an-abundance-of-logic/1bsrlbv5pc6tx1enyaicva9niy
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KU’s going to get hit with stuff for the payments to Preston and DeSousa. I don’t think anybody here has argued against that because that stuff happened. The severity of those punishments is going to depend on the final ruling of Gasnola and Adidas.
The NCAA is going to deeply regret the decision if they continue to pursue that Adidas is a KU booster. That’s decision that will ultimately cost the NCAA a lot of money because it will trickle to other corporate sponsors and other programs. Every other program is going to be rooting for KU in that part of the case because of the ramifications a ruling in the NCAA’s favor would have on everyone.
If the NCAA’s insistent on claiming KU was the only program benefitting from that practice, then that’s simple enough to disprove because of Brian Bowen. If the NCAA still claims it’s only Adidas, then keep it in house and bring back the Silvio part of the case and purpose of the $20,000 payment that Gasnola attempted to make. Now you have Under Armour dead to rights for the same practice. So now let’s say the NCAA acknowledges Adidas and UA, but ignores Nike, now KU should probably go full scorched earth and bring up the recruitments of DeAndre Ayton and Zion Williamson. Subpoena a Nike official involved in Ayton’s recruitment to ask why Ayton at pretty close to the last minute decides to commit to a program that had a coach nailed for bribery? Then you subpoena whoever at Nike that can answer why there is recording of Zion Williamson tied to $200,000 from Adidas to go to KU, but ended up at Duke. Did he simply turn down life changing money to go to Duke for free?
It just seems to me that the NCAA calling a corporate partner a booster is going to go down a rabbit hole the NCAA is going to deeply regret down if they pursue it.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
SN going full wtf is the NCAA thinking https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/ncaa-response-to-kansas-bill-self-shows-confidence-in-its-case-but-not-an-abundance-of-logic/1bsrlbv5pc6tx1enyaicva9niy
Mike Decourcy asks the most important question here: How do you claim that adidas is a representative of kansas’ athletic interests but also claim that shoe/apparel companies like nike are not acting in the interest of other universities?
The ncaa’s response to this - “there is no cause for concern among member institutions as most of their relationships with corporate entities comply with ncaa legislation” - is pretty vague and weak.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
SN going full wtf is the NCAA thinking https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/ncaa-response-to-kansas-bill-self-shows-confidence-in-its-case-but-not-an-abundance-of-logic/1bsrlbv5pc6tx1enyaicva9niy
Mike Decourcy asks the most important question here: How do you claim that adidas is a representative of kansas’ athletic interests but also claim that shoe/apparel companies like nike are not acting in the interest of other universities?
The ncaa’s response to this - “there is no cause for concern among member institutions as most of their relationships with corporate entities comply with ncaa legislation” - is pretty vague and weak.
That statement alone from the NCAA makes me want to see KU go full scorched earth on the NCAA and burn them to the ground in the court room and summon every major recruit that has been connected to KU in recruiting and ask Nike/Under Armour representatives why a player rejected an offer from an Adidas rep to play for KU. There’s enough out there on Ayton and Zion that KU can drag Arizona and Duke down with them.
