NOA response from KU discussion
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Reading into Coach T’s response
Procedurally Improper Importation from the Federal Trial of Gatto and Co-conspirators
Bylaw 19.7.8.3.1 states, in part, that “facts established by a decision or judgment of a court, agency, accrediting body, or other administrative tribunal of competent jurisdiction, which is not under appeal […] may be accepted as true in the infractions process in concluding whether an institution or individual participating in the previous matter violated NCAA legislation. Evidence submitted and positions taken in such a matter may be considered in the infractions process.”’
Kurtis understands that the verdicts in the federal criminal trial involving Jim Gatto and his co-conspirators from which the enforcement staff has charted much of its investigative course in this case have been under appeal since March of 2019. Kurtis understands that Bill Self s (“Self’) response to the Amended Notice of Allegations addresses why the enforcement staff’s use of facts established, evidence submitted, or positions taken in that federal criminal trial as part of the enforcement staffs investigation in this case violates Bylaw 19.7.8.3.1, irreparably prejudices the investigation and processing of this case, and renders Allegations 2(a), 2(b), 2c, and 3(d), among others, improper and appropriate for dismissal. Kurtis adopts Self’s analysis in that regard.”
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@mayjay waiting for you and @justanotherfan to weigh in.
Might have to wait awhile. Lots of stuff going on now and it will take some time to digest all that!
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@mayjay hope nothing bad!
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Interesting new tidbit learning how Gassnola came into contact with KU
Gassnola became familiar with KU through Joe Dooley- former assistant coach back in 2010-11.
After Dooley left KU, Coach T became the main point of contact.
Kurtis understood Gassnola to be both a AAU coach & a consultant for Adidas whose duties included being a point of contact for KU’s men’s basketball program and monitoring whether the program was happy with Adidas apparel.
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"Kurtis notes that, prior to the enforcement staff’s assertion in this case, at no point during Kurtis’ twenty-eight years as a Division 1 men’s basketball coach at six different universities has Kurtis been advised by a university, a conference, the National Association of Basketball Coaches, or NCAA personnel that by itself a person’s employment by an apparel company that supplies gear to a university’s athletics department classifies that person as a booster of the university. "
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5 senior KU administrators asked questions about boosters.
QUESTION: In your view as athletics director, do you view Adidas as a representative of KU’s athletics interests?
JEFF LONG: No. You know I never had, candidly, in my career looked at a shoe or apparel person as a representative of our athletics interest. I see them as a sponsor.
QUESTION: Did you regard Adidas as a representative of Kansas’ athletics interests?
SHEAHON ZENGER: No. I saw them as a partner, as any other institution viewed their apparel sponsors.
QUESTION: And was the Adidas relationship, did it have any objective or purpose as to helping secure enrollment of prospective student-athletes to KU?
ZENGER: Absolutely not.
QUESTION: As a long-time athletics administrator, are you familiar with the term representative of the institution’s athletics interest?
LARRY KEATING: Yeah.
QUESTION: At any time did you ever consider Adidas to be a representative of the KU’s athletics interest?
KEATING: No. Not at all.
QUESTION: And why is that?
KEATING: They’re not. They’re representing their own interests. Not ours.
QUESTION: What I’m asking is from your point of view in real time, did you ever in your own mind, regard Adidas as a representative of KU’s athletics interest.?
LESTER: Absolutely not.
QUESTION: So, you think that Adidas is a representative of the institution’s athletics interest here at KU?
REED: No. I think they’re a corporate partner.
QUESTION: So, in, in your analysis, what is different between being a corporate partner and a representative of the institutions athletic interest?
REED: The, I separate it from the, the true, the true meaning of a representative of athletics interests is to, they’re donating money for the betterment of the athletic department. And I understand there’s, there’s additional triggers, but KU is in a corporate partnership with Adidas that both sides make significant amount of money from. It’s not Adidas dumping all this money into KU with no outcome on the other side. So to me, Adidas is no different as I said earlier, to Pepsi, to Demarini Bats from baseball, to New Era hats in baseball, to Land Management that cuts the grass. It’s no different. It’s a corporate partner.
Senior associate athletics director David Reed, who in 2019 received the National Association for Athletics Compliance’s (“NAAC”) Frank Kara Leadership Award, which is NAAC’s premiere award and highest honor
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https://twitter.com/MattNorlander/status/1235974017745588226?s=09
Wow!!!
Don’t worry Duke is super clean, tha brotherhood
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@BeddieKU23 Shots fired!
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@BeddieKU23 That - other than Larry Brown, which is laughable and also a pandora’s box - is what I have been saying all along.
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@dylans said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@BeddieKU23 Shots fired!
This one backs up coach T
The end of the section also notes that Williamson’s parents were interviewed by enforcement staff in November and “expressly rejected the idea that KU or its coaches had done, said, or suggested anything improper during [Williamson’s] recruitment.”
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The EXTREMELY tl;dr version is that KU is fighting on mostly substance, not technical grounds. The signal is nobody admitted to any wrongdoing and if we did prove it or we’re taking this to SCOTUS if we have to.
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@BeddieKU23 Thanks for your work on this.
The Norlander Tweet really what we’ve been saying for years when we heard Zion’s mom wanted a house from us, so he went to Duke instead, presumably to get something better.
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@wissox It would be interesting to know how Zion’s mother was living before he got his NBA money, now wouldn’t it?
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I was just thinking about this topic. Glad you started it @BeddieKU23. I read an article on yahoo about KU fighting back against the NCAA. The writer felt that the NCAA would prevail and spank KU pretty good. I’m wandering if this is one of those moments that changes everything? One would have to believe that this epic battle between KU and the NCAA is on the minds of all the power schools.
There has already been rumblings in the rank and file schools that maybe the NCAA has outlived its purpose, or does such a poor job (see the Tar Heel grade scandal) that it’s time for a change, or something new. With the explosion of the media deals the power conferences are receiving? Who really needs the NCAA anymore?
I guess the 300 pound gorilla in the room is, “what purpose does the NCAA really serve”? Other than the NCAA tournament, which the Ncaa makes big time money from. What does it really do? It seems to most the NCAA is a waste of money, and lacks real leadership. In fact some would say the NCAA shows a Bias towards certain schools. This is why I think think KU is fighting back so hard.
Could KU kill the NCAA as we know it?
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Reading some again.
Still on Coach T’s response and they break down case precedent for his violations. T is charged with level 1 which is the most serious. Case Precedent here would drop his allegations, if any of them were actually violations to Level 3.
It was repeated many times that they lacked precedent in these charges
Its ludicrous the NCAA went to level 1 with T.
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@DoubleDD said in NOA response from KU discussion:
I was just thinking about this topic. Glad you started it @BeddieKU23. I read an article on yahoo about KU fighting back against the NCAA. The writer felt that the NCAA would prevail and spank KU pretty good. I’m wandering if this is one of those moments that changes everything? One would have to believe that this epic battle between KU and the NCAA is on the minds of all the power schools.
There has already been rumblings in the rank and file schools that maybe the NCAA has outlived its purpose, or does such a poor job (see the Tar Heel grade scandal) that it’s time for a change, or something new. With the explosion of the media deals the power conferences are receiving? Who really needs the NCAA anymore?
I guess the 300 pound gorilla in the room is, “what purpose does the NCAA really serve”? Other than the NCAA tournament, which the Ncaa makes big time money from. What does it really do? It seems to most the NCAA is a waste of money, and lacks real leadership. In fact some would say the NCAA shows a Bias towards certain schools. This is why I think think KU is fighting back so hard.
Could KU kill the NCAA as we know it?
Simple response to your question about KU killing the NCAA. The answer is a big fat no… The fact is there is to much against KU, think this is the time the NCAA has to try to save face and we are the proverbial lamb/ the Sacrafice. There is no way in Hell we walk from this unscathed . The NCAA charged us with FIVE level 1 charges which is the most severe charge. They were taking about this on our sports programming here in Topeka, general concensus that we will be hit with a post season Ban
They had people on from Rock ChalkTalk - - they had CJ Moore on and others. They feel that Coach Townsend is the one that is in the most danger/trouble - -More then Coach Self . To many people calling out the NCAA to step up and follow through. Basically calling out the NCAA to stand up and act like they had a pair. KU the biggest fish and want to make an example about how they not going to tolerate. Talked about exactly what year we would face the post Season ban as this thing is going to drag out for some time. Loos like most likely they think possibility of Coach Self having to serve like possibly a 6 game suspension Coach Townsend on like a 10 year what’s it call? - -So Cause?- na that’s not it is it? any ways real possibility of 10 yr and possibility of having games stripped. - -Myself I think yes we will get a post Season Ban , they leveled FIVE level one’s gives them some le-way to neogiate . - -we will for sure be hit most likely the postseason , maybe cost us some off campus recruiting I think will be the extent
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In Self’s response I thought they did a great job of ripping apart the allegations against him and that Gassnola or Adidas was a booster. They ask if these people were boosters then provide evidence when they started being boosters. The NCAA definitely failed to disclose any information regarding that
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Booom
Under NCAA head coach control legislation, head coaches are presumed responsible for violations committed by those who report to them, i.e., assistant coaches and other staff members who report to the coach." Based on publicly available information, all of the schools implicated in the SDNY cases—with the exception of KU—appear to have a coach involved in either accepting or providing money for an illicit purpose, thereby implicating the head coach at those schools under the head coach control legislation. But that theory of head coach responsibility is not available in the KU case because neither Self nor anyone on his coaching staff knew of or was involved in any alleged illicit payments. Moreover, Adidas, Gatto, Gassnola, Code and Cutler are not members of Self s staff and, therefore, Self is not responsible for their actions and conduct which may violate NCAA rules
However, no evidence was adduced in either the federal criminal trial or the record developed by the enforcement staffs investigation that demonstrates clearly and credibly that KU, Self, or his staff were aware that Adidas employees and consultants were boosters.
In fact, under the sponsorship relationship between Adidas and KU, it was actually KU’ s obligation to promote Adidas.
Adidas and KU had a Legitimate Arms’ - Length Sponsorship Agreement Beginning in 2005, Adidas and KU entered into an arms’-length sponsorship agreement which contractually required that Adidas pay KU monies and provide goods and services in return for KU promoting and marketing the Adidas brand — not for Adidas promoting KU’s athletics program.
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@jayballer73 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@DoubleDD said in NOA response from KU discussion:
I was just thinking about this topic. Glad you started it @BeddieKU23. I read an article on yahoo about KU fighting back against the NCAA. The writer felt that the NCAA would prevail and spank KU pretty good. I’m wandering if this is one of those moments that changes everything? One would have to believe that this epic battle between KU and the NCAA is on the minds of all the power schools.
There has already been rumblings in the rank and file schools that maybe the NCAA has outlived its purpose, or does such a poor job (see the Tar Heel grade scandal) that it’s time for a change, or something new. With the explosion of the media deals the power conferences are receiving? Who really needs the NCAA anymore?
I guess the 300 pound gorilla in the room is, “what purpose does the NCAA really serve”? Other than the NCAA tournament, which the Ncaa makes big time money from. What does it really do? It seems to most the NCAA is a waste of money, and lacks real leadership. In fact some would say the NCAA shows a Bias towards certain schools. This is why I think think KU is fighting back so hard.
Could KU kill the NCAA as we know it?
Simple response to your question about KU killing the NCAA. The answer is a big fat no… The fact is there is to much against KU, think this is the time the NCAA has to try to save face and we are the proverbial lamb/ the Sacrafice. There is no way in Hell we walk from this unscathed . The NCAA charged us with FIVE level 1 charges which is the most severe charge. They were taking about this on our sports programming here in Topeka, general concensus that we will be hit with a post season Ban
They had people on from Rock ChalkTalk - - they had CJ Moore on and others. They feel that Coach Townsend is the one that is in the most danger/trouble - -More then Coach Self . To many people calling out the NCAA to step up and follow through. Basically calling out the NCAA to stand up and act like they had a pair. KU the biggest fish and want to make an example about how they not going to tolerate. Talked about exactly what year we would face the post Season ban as this thing is going to drag out for some time. Loos like most likely they think possibility of Coach Self having to serve like possibly a 6 game suspension Coach Townsend on like a 10 year what’s it call? - -So Cause?- na that’s not it is it? any ways real possibility of 10 yr and possibility of having games stripped. - -Myself I think yes we will get a post Season Ban , they leveled FIVE level one’s gives them some le-way to neogiate . - -we will for sure be hit most likely the postseason , maybe cost us some off campus recruiting I think will be the extent
Yea I agree the NCAA is grasping for some form of respect, but I think that reads into my point of view. I have no doubt that if the NCAA throws the book at KU? Look for a law suit. I believe North Carolina is in the same boat here. I think this is going to get ugly, before it gets better.
Maybe the NCAA doesn’t go away, but I bet there will be some major changes to the power structure.
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What do I think? Townsend will be the fall guy, no longer coaching in college basketball (replaced by Manning), Self will be censored, and we will have to vacate not only our conference title and Final 4 appearance from '17-'18 but also give up scholarships for a three year period.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Nothing bad. Lots of spring things & repairing to do!
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It will be very interesting to see what path this goes down. The NCAA as KU pointed did jump to conclusions and break their own rules. Also sounds like 90% of dirt on KU comes from Zions recruitment which they have apparently refused to look at. Also they had pretty much put the hush hush on Arizona tho supposedly they have a recording of Miller talking about giving Ayton 100k. Miller was so guilty he even said good bye to fans after last season but nothing has come of it. At this point it plenty obvious that a good chunk of schools are breaking rules. Over 60 were listed in this probe. If they only go after KU, I’d expect a discrimination law suit at this point. It looks really bad for them that none of the Nike schools that have dirt are being punished. That’s before you get into UNCs fake class scandal having zero consequences. I’ll just called like I see it Nike is funneling money to the NCAA some how. I’d pretty much put my life on it.
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Most of this surrounds around Gassnola and him being labeled a booster to the KU program.
The zion part was cherry picked from texts and is one of the few allegations that have absolutely zero merit or evidence to back up anything. If anything the only evidence collected contradicts their own allegations.
You did get one thing right, this was severe overreach but its probably not going to matter. This is the sham of the NCAA
I really hope KU takes this to court
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When you are not only judge, jury and executioner, but also run the investigation and decide who gets investigated…that’s the best way to fairness in my experience. Lol
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@DoubleDD said in NOA response from KU discussion:
I guess the 300 pound gorilla in the room is, “what purpose does the NCAA really serve”?
It seems to most the NCAA is a waste of money, and lacks real leadership. In fact some would say the NCAA shows a Bias towards certain schools. This is why I think think KU is fighting back so hard.
Could KU kill the NCAA as we know it?
Kill it!
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Avenatti is a Dem and lawyer Ass, but he was on to something with Nike.
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@Bwag Sure he was, no doubt. And now he is also on to jail.
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@Bwag Gotta like the Mafia-style sales pitch, though. “I found a problem for you. A few mil and it goes away.”
He didn’t understand that the mob has an alternative when they offer a deal that makes it one “that they can’t refuse.”
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The NCAA has gone big game hunting on this one. They want to flex their muscle a little bit and I think they are using KU as a test case. Of course, the money is all about to be on top of the table now, but I think that’s the NCAA’s plan - see if they can punish a school for the actions of a ShoeCo. Of course, that opens a whole other can of worms, but when you’re fishing anyway…
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I see this case as the NCAA trying to posture their perceived strength in front of the D1 audience.
This will boil down to a case of chicken… will Kansas bring this into the courtroom? I’m betting they will continue to show their answer as “yes” and if the NCAA is smart, they will find a cleaver way to save face and drop this nonsense.
To some degree, Kansas has already faced vetting in a criminal case and came out “the victim.” I like their chances in civil court. The NCAA can’t continue coming into a courtroom and having their privacy jurisdiction pierced. Every time this happens, their protection as a private organization becomes weaker and weaker and weaker…
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Just a quick observation: KU depending on the appeal of the federal case not being final sort of depends on that case not becoming final while ours is still pending. What happens if it does?
I am also wondering something about my fellow readers: how many of you supporting KU’s objection to the NCAA’s use of the not-technically-admissible evidence have ever expressed anger about a criminal defendant getting off on a technicality if a judge threw out a technically illegal search?
I am a full defender of the exclusionary rule, but I seem to vaguely recall that not everyone is…
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@mayjay I would feel better not getting off on a technicality; it doesn’t look like the NCAA will follow their own guidelines, so it may be moot. It looks to me like the NCAA will penalize KU and KU will have to fight it in court if they want a favorable outcome. Problem is I don’t know if they can get a favorable outcome. If Adidas is allowed to give money to kids for KU and KU doesn’t get in trouble then it’ll open it wide up for the shoecos to fully run college basketball openly. The NCAA wants to maintain its control over member institutions and more importantly it’s cash cow the NCAA tournament. But if KU wins they may ultimately lose by allowing NIKE to openly buy players on a scale ADIDAS may not be able to.
Personally I just want it cleaned up to a point we can pretend it’s amateur athletics.
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@dylans “Personally I just want it cleaned up to a point we can pretend it’s amateur athletics.”
While we’re at it, let’s clean up politics to where we can pretend they’re not all crooks. And stupid.
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@mayjay said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Just a quick observation: KU depending on the appeal of the federal case not being final sort of depends on that case not becoming final while ours is still pending. What happens if it does?
I am also wondering something about my fellow readers: how many of you supporting KU’s objection to the NCAA’s use of the not-technically-admissible evidence have ever expressed anger about a criminal defendant getting off on a technicality if a judge threw out a technically illegal search?
I am a full defender of the exclusionary rule, but I seem to vaguely recall that not everyone is…
The NCAA is not the US legal system though and don’t abide by the same rules when it comes to making decisions and handing out punishments.
I do support the exclusionary rule because it does protect people from having their 4th amendment rights violated, but since the NCAA doesn’t operate by the same rules, neither should KU in this case.
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@nuleafjhawk I think it is impossible to get rid of corruption in politics.
Stupidity in politics is a good target if you can tell me how to fix stupid in the voters!
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Interesting timing. The NCAA lowers the boom on Siena on the eve of their conference tournament. A glimpse of things to come?
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Associated Press LOUDONVILLE, N.Y -- Siena College has been handed a three-year probation and a $5,000 fine for violations an NCAA investigation of the program found under former men's basketball coach Jimmy Patsos.The NCAA found that Patsos provided impermissible benefits, including payments to players.
According to the NCAA Committee on Infractions, Patsos gave cash to student-athletes in the locker room after several games over the final three years he served as head coach. Payments ranged from $60 to $100 or more. The committee said the former coach did not seek guidance from the school’s compliance staff but he acknowledged some of the violations and said he misunderstood NCAA rules.
Siena, a private Catholic school outside the New York state capital of Albany, self-reported the violations a year-and-a-half ago.
The NCAA said that during the probation Siena must disassociate itself with an unnamed booster who interfered in the probe.
Punishment for the Level II violations vacates 46 wins from the final three seasons Patsos was head coach. He resigned after the 2017-18 season amid a wide-ranging investigation by the school that unearthed allegations of problems ranging from abusive conduct to financial improprieties within the men’s basketball program.
The NCAA also levied a three-year, show-cause order against Patsos, meaning that any NCAA member school that hires him must restrict him from athletically related duties unless it can demonstrate why the restrictions should not apply.
The committee announced its findings Monday, on the eve of the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference tournament in Atlantic City, New Jersey. Siena is the top seed after winning the regular-season title.
Siena athletic director John D’Argenio said the school has two weeks to respond to the NCAA.
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Wonder if any students were retained from then, and if they got “Silvio-ed” for receiving that cash?
I love the defense–“didn’t know I couldn’t give cash to my players.” Anyone hiring this clown should just be put on probation for being stupid.
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I reckon this one will have a direct impact on KU’s. Involves Gassnola and booster status.
https://www.si.com/college/2020/04/08/nc-state-ncaa-investigation-dennis-smith
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Just finished watching the scheme on HBO, the FBI’s case is really quite laughable. They pretty much dropped the hammer on Dawkins because they needed to on someone. Definitely some eye opening stuff. Like a wire tap Sean Miller saying Ayton is costing him 10k a month. It pretty much confirmed what I think is happening. NIKE is paying the NCAA hundreds of millions or more to not look into NIKE’s main schools. Will Wade also looks super guilty. Wasn’t really anything on KU, UK, UNC or Dook in it. I’m no law professor but having a head coach on tape saying stuff like that but the NCAA doing nothing sounds like discrimination by definition.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@mayjay said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Just a quick observation: KU depending on the appeal of the federal case not being final sort of depends on that case not becoming final while ours is still pending. What happens if it does?
I am also wondering something about my fellow readers: how many of you supporting KU’s objection to the NCAA’s use of the not-technically-admissible evidence have ever expressed anger about a criminal defendant getting off on a technicality if a judge threw out a technically illegal search?
I am a full defender of the exclusionary rule, but I seem to vaguely recall that not everyone is…
The NCAA is not the US legal system though and don’t abide by the same rules when it comes to making decisions and handing out punishments.
I do support the exclusionary rule because it does protect people from having their 4th amendment rights violated, but since the NCAA doesn’t operate by the same rules, neither should KU in this case.
And that is the problem with the NCAA, it does not operate by or follow the same rules - tyrannical, and - an arguement could be made - even anti-American.
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@mayjay said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@nuleafjhawk I think it is impossible to get rid of corruption in politics.
Stupidity in politics is a good target if you can tell me how to fix stupid in the voters!
Maybe the voters have been and are being stupid due to their having no choice but to be? Not a big fan of our political class.
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Time to go to war. https://twitter.com/sethdavishoops/status/1258093496734384128?s=21
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Party time.
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@BShark you know anything?
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Obviously the response from the NCAA will be a laugher. They will double down
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just came across in the last 15 minutes. Listening to local sports talk. Ku responding to the NCAA 'S response - - 92 pages they will be going over soon
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@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Obviously the response from the NCAA will be a laugher. They will double down
I’m skimming it quick, and they have jack shit. They’ve never said shoe cos were boosters in any other case ever. They’re basically saying Gassnola perjured himself with no proof in pinning the violations on Self and Townsend. Even Mike Bray is like whoa there this is routine business you’re turning into L1 violations with no additional guidance telling us what we’re doing is wrong.
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What a giant crock of shit the NCAA’s response is. To be expected of course but still.
