Bill Self Playing Favorites
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@BShark Good point about people not close-guarding Garrett, Which is all the more reason for him to do everything in his power to make teams pay for slacking off him. At the very least, since he is clearly coached to drive, he needs to Work on getting well above 50% from the free throw line. Work on his threes, and free throws, and with his defensive skills, he will be a net positive on the floor.
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@HighEliteMajor Just closely read your lengthy post. I could be missing something here, but the essential conceit, a point you have made consistently over the years, is that guys like Lucas, Taylor, M-star and potentially Garrett, are bad because THEY CANT SCORE, or at least can’t score as much as some other players, thus shouldn’t see as much playing time as other higher potential players who are better scorers. In Other words, can’t score = bad player, and can’t score = losing in the ncaa tourney. I’m not embarrassed to admit my lack of knowledge of What KU players in the past would be considered an all around player- scoring, defense, rebounding, passing, boxing out, etc. I’m sure there are plenty that we’ve had, but not everybody can usually do all things.
A few years back, you brought up the heated and long debated subject of Jamari as an example of a guy who shouldn’t be playing as much because he wasn’t a scoring threat, and thus was a lower talent guy. I thought then that Self surely must be playing him for a reason other than that he was a coach favorite, so I started the practice of re-watching games and really focusing on just one player- in that case Jamari, but also other players. I learned a lot about the subtleties of hoops at the college level, and came to the realization that what self values (and I’m sure other good coaches) is guys who play good overall D, box out, pass, set picks, help teammates get open, and know what their role is in a team system. In other words, scoring IS ONLY ONE FACET, not the most important ones apparently at least for certain guys. Every good team does need some primary scorers… Perry Ellis comes to mind, and often his D was awful as well as some other parts of his game. You can’t have a whole team of role players at the top tier of D1, but again Self CLEARLY values guys like Lucas, Traylor, and Garret for what they can do, and feels that a really good OVERALL team HAS to have a certain amount of guys like that.
So yes I do agree that self need to cultivate our NBA-talent level guy Grimes, ride him, play him thru the bad stretches because we will need him for sure. Particularly his ability to score. But self will always value the role guys because he is convinced of their value despite their scoring liabilities, and is convinced that you WIN with a mix of those guys.
(Also, guys who are “NBA” level in talent are not necessarily the best fit for certain college systems. The NBA does put a very high priority on scorers, not necessarily defensive guys, which is why you see guys who just OK in college really shine in the NBA, and even more, guys with supposed NBA talent who cant cut it.)
Not sure this is a good example of the subject matter here, But last year I was at the east regional game between West Virginia and Villanova. Huggie of course has an ENTIRE program built around defense- first selfless team guys, but not necessarily guys who are natural scorers first. They harassed Villanova endlessly, caused turnovers like they’re built to do, and forged a lead late in the game. But Villanova had guys who could step it up when it mattered and hit huge buckets with guys draped all over them, Yes NBA level guys, to regain the lead… West Virginia couldn’t answer. They simply didn’t have the scorers who could step up in crunch time, and sometimes basketball comes down to scoring ability above all else.
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@HighEliteMajor well-balanced analysis. Always glad when you weigh in.
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@Bosthawk So role players are of course okay, pretty much essential even. Not everyone gets to be the star. Teams like 08 KU or 09 UNC are fairly abnormal where you have a bunch of high level players. The problem actually is the lack of being an offensive threat. The other part of the problem is when Self takes a subpar player like Jamari and plays him too much. Let’s take JR year Jamari for instance. 10 minutes a game is probably fine, but 20? No way his stats were that of a play half the game player. Landen was a serviceable big, a 15 minutes a game kind of guy. He should have started 1 game for KU though, SR night, instead he started 63. The difference with, say, a player such as Russ Rob is clear. Role players like Russ Rob are what you want. Good and willing defender, does all the little things you mentioned (box out, make smart passes, run screens, rebound, play within the team etc) but doesn’t kill you on offense. The trouble comes when Self likes a player for the little reasons, but is an absolute albatross offensively. Self can’t help but play them, it’s his kryptonite. However like @HighEliteMajor mentioned, it’s why KU is so good in the regular season, it will assure you win games against lesser competition and athletes. Making the right plays is a sure way to steal games. The bigger issue is that what if you can teach your higher ceiling players to play like that. Self has his approach that’s for sure, it resonated with Oubre, but flamed out with Diallo, Cliff etc… It eventually worked with the guys Brady played ahead of kinda, just not that year. It’s a slow burn with Self, and why typically his best teams are loaded with guys experienced playing for Bill specifically. Garrett not starting IS big, let’s hope it continues.
GREAT point about NBA talent and fit in specific college systems. Some players have definitely felt like a bit of a waste under Self. Of course in the past Self was too rigid at times but like HEM said he has softened up a bit. This is also a big part of why I am not worried about the McBride and Braun commitments. They should be good college players. Both can shoot it and are constantly described with words/terms such as winner, competitor, tough, gets after it etc… So if the staff thinks they are a good fit, and you develop them over 4-5 years I am all for that. In fact if all three stay at KU, I almost have no doubt that RS JR Agbaji, + 3rd Year Braun/McBride will be very salty back court pieces.
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@BShark All good points. In an ideal world you would get guys who do it all, or figure out the best way to play your glue role-play guys to compliment and help develop the scorers. Perhaps Self needs, as you HEM have stated, to learn to bite the bullet and play the best perceived talent guys more early on. Not sure Self would agree with you though.
Part of the issue for me is i am admittedly biased, and perhaps less coldly rational about the situation. I, like self, am perhaps TOO fond of our past role-player types- I loved releford, loved Lucas, and loved traylor. My current fave Is Garrett, and also mitch. But I’m Just a fan who likes who I like… And I’m conversely probably unreasonably biased against the OAD guys we get from time to time, although I loved Jackson’s effort. (I hope he can find his way in the pros … currently not going as we all thought for him. A guy clearly who came with NBA level talent. )
Is Dotson considered a 4-year guy? God I hope so… What fun it was to have Frank and Devonte for their 4 years. And both currently in the Big Show despite not being perceived as NBA- level guys early on.
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Bosthawk said:
Is Dotson considered a 4-year guy?
No. There is a chance he leaves after this year but likely a 2-3 year player.
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BShark said:
Self called Garrett the best player tonight. Sometimes Self can be wrong. It’s okay to think this or discuss the possibility. No reason to stifle discussion.
This.
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Lawson Assessment
Like @BShark I agree that KJ is not getting enough minutes. And they are coming in a choppy fashion that do not really let him get into any type of flow or rhythm. If you are in for 2 min, and then get yanked right back out, you will start playing like the hook is coming, which become the “Self” fulfilling prophesy. I would like to see KJ get more min (over Garrett) so we can really see how he does. He has not had a fair shake to show if he is going to play with intensity on both ends.
As for Dedric, he is clearly a guy who knows how to play (similar to Perry). But where Perry was simply undersized, I have been troubled and astounded by Dedric’s lack of jumping ability and explosion to the basket. I mean, he can hardly jump over a piece of paper. Which makes me question if he has a bad wheel or something. It relegates him to the “old man” game, and that is not what I was expecting from an elite talent. Anyone thinking he was going to be more athletic than he has shown so far? I think he will produce, and get us double-doubles, but when we face teams with multiple bigs who are elite athletes, I think he is going to struggle finishing at the hoop unless it is an issue where he recovers from an injury… if there is one.
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The biggest problem for Jamari is he didn’t improve after his sophomore year. He had some spectacular plays, and was at his best in working the high/low passing system Self cherishes, but he was not creative in making his own opportunities to score. I already see a huge difference between “reactive JT” and the aggression Garrett has started displaying. I think it is a bit premature to predict Garrett won’t improve based on this point only a few games into his sophomore year.
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@Fightsongwriter He’s not hurt, he’s just…this unathletic. He graded out as the absolute worst athlete at the combine after his SO year at Memphis. If he had a lick of hops, he’d be in the NBA right now.
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So far its looked like Dotson will be a OAD. It’s super early but I cant imagine scouts are not impressed with his ability to defend, jet in the open court and run the team. Again this is just from what we have seen early but I can imagine he will only get better and more comfortable as the season goes. He is already one of the 5 most valuable players on this team and that wont be lost come spring
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@mayjay What you are describing is a player in Traylor that had probably peaked. We all have a ceiling. When looking at Traylor’s four seasons, it seems apparent that his sophomore season was the peak or perhaps a touch of overachievement. He was simply a bad basketball player. His junior season was just awful. His senior season was worse. By then, Self finally realized the harm Traylor was causing. Playing Traylor, and even having him on the roster, was a mistake. With Garrett, it is premature. But the skill set of shooting … one you can analyze quite a bit by what you see … is a struggle. Hard to see that materializing. But Aaron Miles shot 50% from 3 his senior year. Things can change. But such a shift is huge exception.
@Bosthawk Right, scoring is one element. And my judgment of those three players (Traylor, Lucas, Brady) was in part due to their lack of scoring. Just part. Lucas was the one where the lack of scoring was the biggest focus. Traylor was trainwreck in all aspects except for blocks coming from off the ball. That’s all he was good at. And he was bad at everything else. Further, as a purported energy guy, he was lazy and loafed down the court a lot of the time. Brady was just slow and overmatched. The complaint with Brady wasn’t scoring. It was that against higher talent, he was unable to function effectively both offensively and defensively. His excellent post-feeding ability made him a Self favorite in his cram the post offense. Lucas was an excellent rebounder, a smart rebounder that used positioning well. But he gave us zero rim protection in the middle. And couldn’t defend above average players in the post. And couldn’t jump. But his inability to offer much of anything offensively beyond being able to sometimes make open looks was a critical flaw. And we really needed something significant in the middle in two straight tourney losses where Lucas was run out there. He got the most out of what he had I think, as did Brady. Traylor, I view differently. Watching him as much as I did, I can’t get over the laziness I saw. And I still can’t fathom how the guy played for KU. So it wasn’t all scoring.
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BeddieKU23 said:
So far its looked like Dotson will be a OAD. It’s super early but I cant imagine scouts are not impressed with his ability to defend, jet in the open court and run the team. Again this is just from what we have seen early but I can imagine he will only get better and more comfortable as the season goes. He is already one of the 5 most valuable players on this team and that wont be lost come spring
Eh, I still think there is a high chance he stays.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
So far its looked like Dotson will be a OAD. It’s super early but I cant imagine scouts are not impressed with his ability to defend, jet in the open court and run the team. Again this is just from what we have seen early but I can imagine he will only get better and more comfortable as the season goes. He is already one of the 5 most valuable players on this team and that wont be lost come spring
Eh, I still think there is a high chance he stays.
I hope so otherwise this wont be a top 25 team next season. But I think its early to call either way and if he continues to play well and this team goes far his stock will never be higher
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@BeddieKU23 I think if his jumper develops he could end up a high pick. Also, very solid chance Doke is back. Self will make things work, KU will be top 25 next year.
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@mayjay Exactly. Good post. Here’s my take on the whole can of worms: They take grimes out for 5+minutes, and Jayhawk World immediately goes off their rocker. Now we’re supposed to believe that Marcus Garrett is now Jamari Traylor because MG got an extra 5 minutes? Huh? Marcus is a work in progress, but many of his elements he brings to the table help us win. Playing Jamari at times so much was frustrating at times when we had more talented people on the bench.Hopefully, Grimes will come to play and get his extra 5 minutes back by coming to play, and guard his man.Many of you on here are etched in stone that MG will never shoot well, and maybe you’re right. But if any of you think for a second that MG now has a lock on a position as a starter over Grimes, I would kindly ask that you stay away from all sharp objects, and check yourself in immediately to a mental health care facility. Because that’s way over the top. All Marcus has done is give us everything he has every game, he plays lock down defense, he hustles every play, he never complains, and his woeful shot did get in the net a few times. Shame on you people comparing him to Jamari in an insulting way. They’re not all going to be stars.
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No Garrett tonight. Concussion like symptoms. Rut roh
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Rick Barnes. I like our chances.
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BeddieKU23 said:
No Garrett tonight. Concussion like symptoms. Rut roh
Despite the nature of this thread, this really sucks!
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Will be interesting to see how we play without him. Lots of minutes for others.
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BeddieKU23 said:
Will be interesting to see how we play without him. Lots of minutes for others.
We might get to see extended minutes for Chuck or KJ…
Well then…
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Will be interesting to see how we play without him. Lots of minutes for others.
We might get to see extended minutes for Chuck or KJ…
Well then…
Neither has shown that’s a good thing yet. Time for one or both to step it up
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Both KJ and Charlie played fairly well tonight. KJ was obviously frustrated and needs to stay under control but not sure KU wins without him…
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KJ is just a hot mess. I can’t think of a better way to describe him or his play so far.
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jayhawkcsg said:
KJ is just a hot mess. I can’t think of a better way to describe him or his play so far.
LOL! KU doesn’t win tonight without him.
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Despite shortcomings I still like the total package of what KJ can bring to the table more than Garrett. Just my opinion.
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Charlie Moore reminds me a little of Tyshawn in his apparent insistence on shooting the ball despite the obvious imprudence of such acts. And KJ does look like a “hot mess” — nice quote @jayhawkcsg. But he was key to winning. And I do love the irony of not having Garrett — does Garrett score KJ’s 8 points? Does Moore play as much? Does Garrett prevent some scoring from TN?
But we won, with both playing big minutes. With Udoka somewhat irrelevant. Just an excellent team effort.
Last night was a game, I think, that DeSousa would have made a huge difference. The type of matchup where he would have changed the complexion of the game.
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Moore and KJ gave great minutes last night. KJ had a really, really good stretch from late in the 2nd half all the way through OT. Looked like he gained some confidence.
I still think KJ should see very limited minutes. But, it was nice to see that we can rely on him when his number is called. Hard to believe how deep this team is.
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I was impressed with what KJ gave last night. He committed 3 quick fouls in the second half, but other than that he was really good.
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KJ had nothing for Grant Williams. But…I think that will be the case for a lot of guys this year. He was definitely much better after Williams fouled out.
@Kcmatt7 Agree. Nice depth to have but he also showed me why he isn’t getting minutes normally. He’s a nice worse case scenario starting 3/4 next year.
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Williams leaned in every time and drew the foul and so did several of the Tennessee players; a different crew would have called a lot of those a charge. The refs were really bad and really took over the game and not in a good way; I hate it when refs want to be the stars. The best refs are the ones no one talks about after the game.
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https://twitter.com/mattnorlander/status/1066386098740502528?s=21
Good article here.
Self talks about how it’s all mental right now with Q. Thinks this time off will help.
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Thought the same on Silvio. Very good point. Great team win. Had to battle being down for most of 2nd half.
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@BShark I thought he showed a lil more athleticism last pm.
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We flat out dont win tonight without Garrett’s defense. I’ll be honest, I’ll disappointed if MG doesn’t start Grimes has been lazy and flat out hasnt helped this team since Michigan State.
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@kjayhawks I can’t figure it out though. He’s not a lazy guy.
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@Crimsonorblue22 that was the recruiting spin on him, inconsistent shot and lack of effort at times. It was known, maybe he can be this seasons Newman but we are too deep to mess around with a guy that won put forth the effort in games.
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@kjayhawks he didn’t look lazy during the USA games. Shot wasn’t always there, but he played a lot of pt and got to the basket.
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@Crimsonorblue22 He is young still, plenty of time but he played very little in the second half against Tennessee and only 16 minutes tonight. It just bad deal when no part of the game he played stuck out good or bad really for like the 4th game in a row. I think we are a better team if he plays well but it all starts with him.
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Grimes is just lost on D.
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I agree that Garrett should start ahead of Q, but Garrett must limit his offense to driving and scoring at the rim, not shooting. In 33 min of playing time he correctly only took five shots and made two. But the misses spoke volumes about his lack of shooting ability. Garrett brings energy and heart. Bill Self loves the guy. But, please Marcus do all of us a favor and don’t shoot the ball. Defend, get steals and drive the rim.
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@BShark right and with his athletic ability, he should be more aggressive on offense. Maybe he just needs sometime. I trust Self and Co to help him.
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@BShark he doesn’t look like the same kid I saw play for USA.
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@stoptheflop I thought Marcus did ok fir his talent on offense tonight, missed a few at the rim but could’ve easily had foul calls on them as well.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark he doesn’t look like the same kid I saw play for USA.
The coaching in that event was subpar.
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Q has simply lost all of his confidence. He hasn’t seen in a jumper go down in games and just can’t seem to get anything postive to work in his favor . His development is going to be the key to how far this team can go in my opinion .
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stoptheflop said:
I agree that Garrett should start ahead of Q, but Garrett must limit his offense to driving and scoring at the rim, not shooting. In 33 min of playing time he correctly only took five shots and made two. But the misses spoke volumes about his lack of shooting ability. Garrett brings energy and heart. Bill Self loves the guy. But, please Marcus do all of us a favor and don’t shoot the ball. Defend, get steals and drive the rim.
His outside shooting makes me think the cure may be an optometrist, a la “Wild Thing.”
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@Woodrow That does seem to be at least part of the problem. I wonder if we run any plays for him??? His game is not suited to running a weave just to feed the post every time down the court. The coaching staff needs to help create opportunities for him to see shots go down and build confidence.
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@DCHawker That might help, but he’s missing wide open looks. I think he needs two years- this shaken confidence thing doesn’t bode well for the NBA.
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As of today Grimes looks very little like a pro prospect. More like a Euro baller. Xavier Henry would be an upgrade at this point. Hopefully all the potiental he oozed last year comes to fruition by the end of the season like other slow starters (i.e. Oubre, Alexander etc.) I cant wait until Grimes “gets it”!
