Vick Has Earned The Start



  • I love Svi on offense, at least some of the time. Earlier in the season when we first saw Svi driving to the rim a la Wiggs, I thought he was going to be a difference maker on offense for this team. But, we may no longer tolerate his defensive ineptness. Vick needs to return to the starting lineup. Then, bring Svi in for offense as a spot up shooter and occasional penetrator, similar to the way Brannen Greene was used last year.

    I know Svi is our fourth leading scorer at 10/game in 28 minutes. But, against Baylor, Svi’s play created dissention on the floor. Vick’s energy and better defense necessitates the promotion. Svi’s contributions have been on the decline recently, whereas Vick’s play off the bench has provided much needed offense at critical times and many have attributed our last two victories to Vick’s efforts. Reward the slashing Mr. Vick and use Svi as an offensive hammer off the bench.



  • I wonder what Svi’s +/- is? He gives up too many easy drives to the hoop.



  • @stoptheflop I agree that Vick has earned the spot. That said, I have noticed that Coach has the quickest hook for Svi when things are not going well. He pulled him about 2 minutes into the game yesterday when Svi was throwing the ball away and letting his guy get open. Vick is a nice spark off the bench (or in a more pessimistic way the only contribution off the bench).



  • Three years into the program and Svi makes inexcusable freshman mistakes. His offense has improved but I think his d has actually been worse each year.



  • @stoptheflop My thoughts exactly during the pregame intros. Vick’s confidence is booming & his team mates clearly prefer him on the floor. I do myself as Svi’s foot speed is not getting the def job done. Very good thread & food for discussion. Svi still has to get major minutes because of depth issues, but the more tired he becomes in the game, the more the D liabilities are increased. I also think Mitch can benefit from a few more minutes here & there. We’ll need him as well in March & April so get him polished up for the dance asap. JMO Far as I’m concerned-13 is in the bag now. RCJH!



  • To the effect I’d like coach to give some PT to colbey during the next few games. This will increase his confidence for March and will help keep Lucas fresh



  • You risk completely shooting down Svis confidence. Then you may not even have a spot up shooter.

    You can play Vick more than Svi all you want, but at this point in the season, changing the starting lineup is drama a team on a roll doesn’t need.



  • @Kcmatt7 I agree, Svi started but logged less minutes. Both players have had good games and bad games. I’d keep the line up the same.



  • The current substitution allows HCBS to put Vick in for anyone except LL, and he can be effective. With Josh’s always possible foul issues, and Svi’s lack of reliability in handling the ball, I like Vick’s versatility in keeping KU consistent during the starters’ minutes out.



  • @AsadZ said:

    To the effect I’d like coach to give some PT to colbey during the next few games. This will increase his confidence for March and will help keep Lucas fresh

    At this point it’s clear Self prefers Lightfoot over Coleby.

    As far as Vick/Svi, both have their weaknesses. I wouldn’t mind seeing Vick start though, as I feel Svi has been a big part of the slow starts recently.



  • @BShark I disagree completely with Coleby not getting more minutes but that’s Selfs decision and not mine



  • @HawkChamp

    Imo it has to do with the fact that Mitch will be here 4-5 years and Coleby might not be here next year.



  • @BShark Where is Coleby going? Will he not be a senior?



  • @Big-Clyde52 said:

    @BShark Where is Coleby going? Will he not be a senior?

    Out to pasture. He might stay though, depends on who is available in terms of post grads and decommits.



  • @BShark Coleby is still recovering from his ACL tear in summer of 2015. It usually takes basketball players longer than any other group to fully recover from that kind of injury.

    Also, are you aware that KU is still going to be pretty thin in front court depth next year. We’ll see if Doke has recovered 100% by then, Lightfoot is still a work in progress, who knows what we’ll get out of Bragg next year and finally there’s the issue of whether or not Billy Preston will even get through the NCAA Clearinghouse or not. Coleby will be an important player to have because he can be a steady presence like LL when he’s 100% next year.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 could he graduate?



  • W/Vick and Svi it’s kinda like Tarik and Embiid, more important who’s in at crunch time.



  • @Crimsonorblue22

    Yes. He played 2 seasons at Ole Miss, sat one at KU and is playing this season. If he graduates he can transfer and be eligible immediately.



  • @Kcmatt7 Agree. Self always says it’s not who starts but who is in at the end. Continue to start Svi, but play Vick more if that is who is playing better.



  • @Crimsonorblue22 He could, but I don’t see it happening. Coleby at 100% will likely be the first big off the bench if Self goes back to the traditional 3 out 2 in line up.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 said:

    @BShark Coleby is still recovering from his ACL tear in summer of 2015. It usually takes basketball players longer than any other group to fully recover from that kind of injury.

    Also, are you aware that KU is still going to be pretty thin in front court depth next year. We’ll see if Doke has recovered 100% by then, Lightfoot is still a work in progress, who knows what we’ll get out of Bragg next year and finally there’s the issue of whether or not Billy Preston will even get through the NCAA Clearinghouse or not. Coleby will be an important player to have because he can be a steady presence like LL when he’s 100% next year.

    Right it might not materialize due to depth issues. We will see though, I’d bet the staff will be looking at grad transfer post players.



  • @BShark If they’re looking, it’s because of Preston, not Coleby.



  • I don’t think we should switch lineups. Svi was terrible yesterday but what can do ya do at this point. We need him when he does play well.

    I do want to point out during the game. It was a play where the camera angle changed to the back view and Mason brings the ball up, Svi is completely open for a good 5-10 seconds before Mason looks his way. I thought it looked like Frank was purposely not getting him the ball at that point. Maybe it was just me and by the way the play I think ended up in a turnover.

    It does seem like Vick is playing on a upswing and that is a big sign for this team headed towards March.



  • @BeddieKU23 Uh, there we go again. My brother and I were talking about this, this morning. I told him about this thread and he agreed also. I think - -feel at this point no way should we be switching line ups, your messing with team chemistry. Svi’s defense could be better for sure, and yes maybe Vick does deserve the start, but just not good to mess with things that are working for you. - -SVI is more aggressive on the offensive end, he is driving the ball this year instead of just spot up 3"s. - -So see that’s not good, AGAIN we are thinking the same - - -JUMPIN - -GEE - -HOSSA - - FATS- - , also like Kcmatt7 says, your risking Svis confidence completely - -he has many many games offensively that has really help, and as thin as our rotation we fir sure don’t need that. - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY



  • @jayballer54

    I’m happy Vick is starting to assert himself because he did go through a month plus of going through the motions. Him pushing Svi is a good sign. I think the staff will get back in Svi’s ear and he’ll step up. The lack of trying on defense is getting old though and that’s where I’d start when I address his play of late. He still is a confident shooter that can make momentum changing plays for this team.



  • Was thinking about the same thing during the game. But after hearing the arguments here (good ones, all) I agree that Vick will be successful coming off the bench and we need the O we get from Svi. He’s made as many threes as Devonte and Frank and we are dependant on that. I do think the zone helps protect Svis slow feet but expect to see more of Vick against long athletic teams.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 said:

    @BShark If they’re looking, it’s because of Preston, not Coleby.

    Disagree completely. Imo Doke and Preston are the starters but the bench is a real concern outside of possibly Bragg.



  • @dylans said:

    I wonder what Svi’s +/- is? He gives up too many easy drives to the hoop.

    Svi was -5 this game. Vick was +8.

    For comparison, our POY was +5 this game. Lucas was +10.



  • Vick has been playing better recently, and he admitted early in the year he prefers to start. But Self has said it doesn’t matter who starts, and while that easily could be coach-speak, he certainly can adjust the minutes to reward the player who is performing.

    I also like the idea of starting the junior over the sophomore. In the era of one&dones it’s nice to reward longevity.

    Bottom line, though, is that we’re about to win #13 in a row. While not playing stellar all game every game, we’ve had some fantastic wins. Let’s not rock the boat. Just enjoy the ride!



  • @tundrahok where did you get the +/- stats? I’d love to see some things to affirm/dispel some beliefs.



  • @dylans http://stats.statbroadcast.com/statmonitr/?id=146479

    Best site I know for viewing live stats. I haven’t closed that page since the game ended.



  • @BShark Billy Preston has serious question marks about his eligibility because of how long he was at API/Prime Prep. This is the same school that has caused the vast majority of players coming out if HS to play overseas like Terrance Ferguson and Emmanuel Mudiay. There is absolutely no guarantee at this point Billy Preston ever plays a game for KU because of his academic history so if Bill Self is looking at grad transfers, it’s because of that and not Dwight Coleby recovering from his torn ACL.



  • Watching yesterday’s game (and in context with the past couple of games) I had the same thought about Svi’s defense. The +/- doesn’t surprise me at all and I think is a fair indication of what happens when Svi is out there. I love Vick’s athleticism. I would not be surprised to see Vick start a game in the near future, but I think the minutes on the floor are a better indicator of where Self’s mindset is. They will probably be splitting time going forward.

    It is easy to get frustrated with Svi, but just remember that he is still younger than JJ and more than 90% of the players he faces.

    Yes, he’s been in the system 2.5 years, and he’s got extraordiary size and agility. We expect more based on what we see and know.

    However, I’ll make a case that patience is well-deserved-- as much as ever.

    I believe the ‘ugly’ we see with Svi’s game is the product of focused *learning’ a new skill. It’s well-established that the development a new level of any skill is preceded with a dip or degradation on performance just before everything starts to click with the new skill.

    We may think that he was better earlier in the year (slashing, shooting, etc.) but his ball handling was not great and he got lucky occasionally with no-calls on traveling (none more prominent than the game winner vs KState)… I suspect he is working on this part of the game with the hope he will have developed a new competency in time for the Tourney.

    I think he will keep getting better. He’s already a lethal shooter and plenty mobile and athletic. We still need to give the kid patience as he develops.



  • It doesn’t really matter who starts. I think a hybrid player between the two would be awesome. I like Vick’s speed and defense. But I love Svi’s shot. It’s a bit more consistent right now over Vick. I don’t think it’s a matter of who deserves to start, but who is more consistent.

    Svi hit some really good shots against Faylor. Vick seems to be in a shooting slump lately. Keep starting Svi and if he slacks, bring in Vick.



  • Svi scored 4 against WV in 21 min, Vick scored 14 in 18 min. Against Baylor, Svi scored 3 points, while Vick score 8 points that coach said were critical to winning the game. Better offense, better defense, so Vick should start. Don’t kid yourself, it matters who starts. Especially to the players.



  • On the matter of Svi or Vick, being the starter, there are valid points on both sides! Of course we all know that Vick was a starter, too, and Svi handled it well, just as Vick has, with Svi being the starter. Let’s all remember how well Vick was shooting the ball, for a good stretch, and I believe he lost a bit, when Frank and Josh, took morenof a hold of the offense! But Vick has regained his shooting touch. I love both Svi and Vick-but my biggest problem with Svi, is not that he doesn’t try on defense, like someone posted-but his just can’t remember where he is supposed to be, on defense. He is a really intelligent, book smart kid, but that is a lot different than having a high basketball IQ! I even saw/heard an interview with him a couple of weeks ago, and he admitted he needs to do a much better job of being in the right spots! I’m not big on changing the starting lineup this late, but I think he is thinking way too much, and the pressure is getting to him, big time. I listened to other players and coaches interviews, the last couple games, and the names Landen and Vick, keep coming up, in sentences that end with this-we wouldn’t have won without them! So to start Vick might be a good move, if the coaches don’t think it will ruin his confidence-and although Vick can really shoot it, maybe a gunslinger coming off the bench, in Svi, just might be the answer! Also, we can’t afford to get behind like we have been, in the NCAA Tournament, and a big reason for us falling behind, is Svi! Take the pressure off of him! This is my opinion, and I’m not here to argue-we all want what is best for our Jayhawks!



  • And by the way, both Vick and Landen, do things that don’t show up on the stat sheets! I know this isn’t about Landen, but I’m just making a comparison in how Vick is valued!



  • Coleby has caught Hunter Michelson Syndrome.

    This is a very mysterious condition in which a reserve sits that could give the team more than a player playing ahed of him gives the team.

    Players afflicted with Hunter Michelson Syndrome typically experience Cryogenic Freezing.



  • Vick has earned the start on his good days, but Self seems to base starting on two factors.

    First, which player is better on each player’s worst day? I suspect Svi has a higher down side.

    Second, which player can sub the most places? Vick seems to be able to sub more slots 1 through 4 comfortably than Svi.



  • @jaybate-1.0 self knows which works the best



  • @Crimsonorblue22

    Self knows which works best.

    Clarify.



  • Very good points about not shaking up a very successful team and that Vick is able to fill in for more positions off the bench. We’ll see Wednesday if Coach wants to reward Vick/demote Svi or prefers to keep the lineup the same. Why mess with success? Imagine Coach changing the starting lineup and then losing to TCU. “Oh, the humanity.” I respect and appreciate all your thoughts fellow Jayhawk fans.



  • @mayjay Ha, great point! A 6’5 guard who can sub in for positions 1-4. I wonder if this means we are slowly turning into Villanova…



  • I think at this point no one on the team is worried about starting or not. They are sniffing the real possibility of major success even beyond the historic Streak.

    If anyone is worried about “being rewarded” this late in the year, that player doesn’t trust his coach, and we are utterly doomed.



  • Vick seems to want to start. The carrot of a starting spot is being dangled in front of him to get him to play better. Vick seemed to get content after he had started a few games and disappeared. Now he seems to be asserting himself a little more. Not starting seems to being working for Bill to motivate Vick.

    Svi looks like he needs more confidence. When he first came back from the Ukraine he was very confident. He needs some of that swagger back; starting helps build him up. Starting helps Svi’s confidence making him a better player.

    Just my take.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 said:

    @BShark Coleby is still recovering from his ACL tear in summer of 2015. It usually takes basketball players longer than any other group to fully recover from that kind of injury.

    Also, are you aware that KU is still going to be pretty thin in front court depth next year. We’ll see if Doke has recovered 100% by then, Lightfoot is still a work in progress, who knows what we’ll get out of Bragg next year and finally there’s the issue of whether or not Billy Preston will even get through the NCAA Clearinghouse or not. Coleby will be an important player to have because he can be a steady presence like LL when he’s 100% next year.



  • Coach Self has said before that KU has 6 starters and it really does not make a lot of difference who starts the game…



  • @jaybate-1.0 I think Self thought Vick was getting lazy and it helped him to sit first, earn it. Vick also fouls a lot and then can’t play long. Svi starting, maybe hoping to get some quick 3’s starting? At least Self doesn’t give up on either one, but doesn’t have much choice. They need to step up! Not much of an answer, just guessing.


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