KU vs Octagon of Tang Doom Game Chat.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in KU vs Octagon of Tang Doom Game Chat.:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I sure as hell won’t rule it out.
For serious, we were so, so, so bad tonight and we won’t replicate that again. And those other teams will lose some weird ones too. It’s just too early. My honest opinion is the Big 12 (and really all of college hoops) is pretty bad and making any kind of concrete predictions is foolhardy.
We’re more than halfway through Big 12 play, it’s not early anymore. KU was bad again tonight, and you say KU won’t replicate that, but they’ve replicated that 5 times now and only won one of those games and that was the Indiana game. This team has played like shit on the road this year and that’s happened in 5 of their 6 road games. That’s not an exception at this point, that’s what this team is and the OSU game in Stillwater is the exception.
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I got say the loss feels twice as bad this morning Bill Self getting out coached consistently by Tang and KSU. Not a good look for our program and a very dark day for jayhawk nation
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Hunter played well especially having two very athletic forwards to contend with and Juan defended and played well also. KJ played well with assists and steals and he will not get a lot of boards against a zone. He shot 50% but missed at least two point blank shots but 13 points isn’t poor by any means. Hunter has made one of his last eighteen threes. Perry scored 23 after the break on some are you kidding me shots and they hit something like 13 out of 15 from the line to hold us off late. No bench again and as we know by now no starter can have an off night or else. Not bad luck just reality.
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@Zabudda you could argue that we ended up With 2 off nights from starters. Kevin missed so many open looks from 3 different areas. Layups, 3s and free throw. Furphy also looked lost most the the game. The difference to me is in the offensive glass, we gave them two or 3 chances too often. That and them making quite a few more 3s than us is the killer on the stat sheet. To be honest if they don’t have 17 turnovers, they win by 20 plus. They were the better team and coach last night again. We will have to get used to KSU being better in basketball because it’s coming very soon.
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You say the quiet parts out loud.
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2 days after last game against a top ten team and riding the starters into OT in the Octotang of Dumb…. Classic Bill! Combat training.
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To me, this loss is on two players. The first is obvious. This just wasn’t Kev’s game. I feel like he owes Juan an apology or something because Juan certainly tried to win that game for us multiple times down the stretch and the team, particularly Kev, just kept letting him down. The free throws are the biggest issue (side note: is there a lane violation on every one of Kev’s free throws or is that just me?). But he also blew some lay ups, turned it over in critical moments and maybe most egregiously lost Perry for the dagger three that we were never coming back from. I’m sure he’s tired, hurt, playing too many minutes, etc. but he’s our super senior, player of the year candidate, and these are the kinds of things that are asked of leaders at KU.
Speaking of player of the year candidates… the second player I blame this loss on is Hunter. That may seem odd considering he had a double double and led the team in scoring on a night we didn’t really score the ball that well for stretches. And I’ve said this elsewhere but it just seems to me that Hunter doesn’t COMPETE at the same level of the rest of the team sometimes. He has the skills and the size, but for me, I still question his toughness. Yes, KSU was literally hanging all over him all game and he (and kev) get fouled almost every time they try to score but again, that is what you sign up for when you say you want to lead a Jayhawk team to a championship. The biggest issue to me is the boards. I know he had 10+ but I still feel like when we NEED a board, he’s not going to go get one. He collects the ones that come to his admittedly very large area, but I’ve yet to see him out compete another guy for a big rebound.
Juan and KJ are competing. Their heart is on the floor every game. Furphy was due for an off game and is still just a freshman who joined the team rather late so he gets a pass on this one. He also had a couple of calls go against him and another couple mistakes that are just going to happen to freshmen in a game like that. Kev is trying but maybe too hard. But to me Hunter is just going to get his and it may contribute to a win or might not. To be clear, he’s not playing selfishly or anything. He’s a good passer and seems to fit in and not demand the ball all the time or anything, but to me, he doesn’t make winning plays the way Juan and KJ do.
Still think this team has a chance to get hot and/or lucky in March and make a final four and then who knows what happens but it is clear they are also extremely capable of getting bounced round 1 or 2 and I’m not sure their is much they can do between now and then to make me feel any different.
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@benshawks08 I hate the too many minutes argument, Perry led his team to victory averaging the highest minutes in the conference. At point is just as simple as they are tougher and wanted it more.
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@kjayhawks Tang didn’t outcoach Bill. The wildcats game plan was to mug KU every time down the court while the refs only called it one way. The leg bar that kid put on KJ when tripping him up was pretty egregious- flagrant 1 type stuff that didn’t get called. If the refs clean up the game coaching could be seen, but that was a rock fight.
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@kjayhawks This game had worried me since UCF because that was when it became clear to me that this team doesn’t always want it more than the other team. And I knew of ALL the games, this one would be incredibly difficult to want it as much as KSU. I knew KSU would play harder than our guys and that feeling kinda sucked. But here we are. When they want it they can be great so maybe that will be enough for a couple of weekends in March. But those first two games are going to scare me because I’m afraid they’ll think they can coast when really what they need to do is grind. I imagine it is driving Self (and Juan) crazy that this team still hasn’t figured out how to grind out a win.
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@dylans said in KU vs Octagon of Tang Doom Game Chat.:
@kjayhawks Tang didn’t outcoach Bill. The wildcats game plan was to mug KU every time down the court while the refs only called it one way. The leg bar that kid put on KJ when tripping him up was pretty egregious- flagrant 1 type stuff that didn’t get called. If the refs clean up the game coaching could be seen, but that was a rock fight.
I was watching without sound so I didn’t hear any of the commentary around the KJ take down or the late review where it looked clear to me Kev got the ole “hook and hold” that was already called a flagrant earlier. Did Bilas talk about it?
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@dylans the problem for me is that Tang so far in his KSU career has overachieved for the most part. At this point he is doing more with less than Self as much as it pains me to say. I think they have a great shot at sweeping us this season. I hate saying but it’s factual that is Ochai doesn’t get a steal to be creighton in the round of 32 in 2022 we all want Bill Self gone as our head coach. He underachieves 80% of the time in the postseason. It stinks but it’s a hard truth at this point. The only thing we have is that we get a favorable road in March and make something happen.
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@kjayhawks when you are a one seed about every year by overachieving in the regular season it makes it impossible to reach fans unreasonable expectations in the post season. Calling for Bill’s head says more about those crybaby entitled piece of shit fans than it does Self.
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@kjayhawks I’m not sure I’d go that far. Certainly not a “hard truth.” It is very hard NOT to underachieve when you are a 1 seed EVERY YEAR. I think it might be more accurate that he overachieves in the regular season. There are maybe a handful of coaches in HISTORY that have had more success in March than Bill Self.
And while I had my doubts about this game, I have very few about when they come to the Phog… KU will crush KSU when they come to town.
You can pick one play in almost every championship team’s run that could have changed everything.
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@dylans @benshawks08 maybe I’m off base but I’m tired of getting embarrassed by KSU and it it’s year 2 of Tang era. If they start getting some better recruits we are in deep trouble IMO. It will ever be acceptable to me regardless of the circumstances to lose to that team. I will never be convinced otherwise right or wrong. Do better period
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@kjayhawks Oh I’m in full agreement about needing to beat KSU 2 or 3 times EVERY year. It was just the underachieving in March stuff I don’t buy.
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@kjayhawks man we’ve won 80% of our games at the octagon of room and Bill has as many titles as anyone in the sport right now.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 if we shoot 40/20 and an opponent that physical only gets called for 14 fouls again anyone is royally screwed
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@FarmerJayhawk I’m pretty sure we have now lost either 5 of 10 or 5 of 11 in that building. I’m a grumpy a$$hole today for sure, I won’t deny it but being up til 11 when I get up at 4 watching a loss does that to me lol.
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These guys are coming off a tough Saturday battle and had no business playing 40+ minutes and we expect a win. I could already see fatigue before halftime.
It was made worse by being at the Kittydome. Of course, they had more energy!
This Kitty team sucks. I’ll be surprised if we don’t thrash them by 30 in our building.
Beyond just being tired… this team is quickly earning the reputation of not being a road team. Period.
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Didn’t we in past seasons get beat each time we went to OSU?
Time for a team meeting to set their mark on the season. Schedules are what we have to deal with. No other top 10 team had to play a Saturday/Monday game. I believe that the first 6 minutes of non-stop play exhausted our players more than they would admit. Sloppy, moving too fast, turns, etc. was mentally defeating, because of what they had accomplished last time they were on the court.
I accept that we are where we are and know that we have all been here before in prior seasons. None of us can change one another’s mind about whether we are going to be a 1, 2, or 3 seed and what needs to be done to just win as many as they can and show what they got. I may seem as though I am wishy washy, but as a true fan I support each and every effort, no matter how it ends. Sure I am disappointed about last night, but it does not materially affect the way I, as a fan, love my #Jayhawks. Think how blessed we have been and what a whole lot of other teams DREAM of being. One can’t lose the fact that life has brought perils all along the way, and the way you deal with adversity shows inner strength. I, recently, have missed a couple chats dealing with some health issues. Really, losing last night is miniscule to what people are going through.
Just my 2 Cents. #RCJH
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KState entered 1-1 after a foul in OT.
Anyone who watched the physicality and intensity knows it was not that kind of game.
It simply wasn’t called consistently.
Plus, didn’t help that the guys were gassed. Bill didn’t sub as much as he should have, in retrospect (and appears to have lost some confidence in the bench).
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I can’t wait for the day we have a scoring PG again. I know everyone loves Juan but the truth is he limits us so much. I just don’t see whats so great. He did take a nice charge though. That was one thing I had thought was lacking this year, didn’t see many people taking charges like in prior years. KM was good for taking 3-4 per game last year it felt like, maybe he is too big time now?
Praying our next PG is in the mold of a Mason, Graham, Dotson type.
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@RockChalkinTexas said in KU vs Octagon of Tang Doom Game Chat.:
I believe that the first 6 minutes of non-stop play exhausted our players more than they would admit.
Yes. More evidence of how the officials were selective throughout the game.
When they finally blew the whistle, it was a traveling call on the perimeter. I was happy, but that was just weird considering all the contact in the previous 6 minutes. It was NOT foul-free.
And don’t get me started on how they look closely at Kev’s foot on the sideline, but not the KSU players crossing the free-throw lane…
Part III really am beginning to feel like the refs have something against Kev. He gets scrutinized unlike others and gets hammered and gets no calls.
This is a fairly recent thing because he was getting calls fairly consistently in the first 10 or so games… If I recall correctly (and haven’t looked at the stats to verify), he was going to the line frequently. Now he goes to the line maybe 1 or 2 times a game.
He’s still driving and still drawing contact, but not getting calls. What changed?
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@RockkChalkk said in KU vs Octagon of Tang Doom Game Chat.:
I can’t wait for the day we have a scoring PG again. I know everyone loves Juan but the truth is he limits us so much. I just don’t see whats so great. He did take a nice charge though. That was one thing I had thought was lacking this year, didn’t see many people taking charges like in prior years. KM was good for taking 3-4 per game last year it felt like, maybe he is too big time now?
Praying our next PG is in the mold of a Mason, Graham, Dotson type.
15/8 with a couple of BIG time steals in key moments. Got a few buckets when we really needed them. Had a few possessions where he stuck to Perry like glue (almost all of that dude’s points came after a switch to get Juan off of him). This is what Juan needs to be. He wasn’t the problem last night for sure. I’m not going to complain anytime Juan gets more that 6 shots in a game. As long as he’s at least that aggressive and keeps up the D and limits his turnovers, he is what we need at point guard with a guy like Hunter etc.
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@benshawks08 Juan was great outside of a few plays IMO. I called him out for going under a few screens but was fine with most of it.
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@RockkChalkk While I agree I’m ready for a stud scoring pg I will defend DeJuan as he was good last night
15/8 with 3 turnovers in that environment with Kevin, KJ and Furphy all unable to throw it in the ocean was a step up performance when guys were struggling
I always call out DeJuan but last night that L isn’t even close to being on him. Kev was atrocious and needs to heal up. I’d rather lose the big 12 and win the big 12 tourney and go to a final four than Kev pushes to play to win the regular season only to be broken down in March
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I thought Juan would carry us to victory down the stretch. It felt that way. He did well and was confident , did not shy away from making big plays.
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Running clock walking the ball up the court down 4 with 3 to go rubs me the wrong way. But I like Harris. He is very steady and does a good job of setting his teammates up for success. Not to be undervalued, his defense is fantastic as well.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in KU vs Octagon of Tang Doom Game Chat.:
@FarmerJayhawk said in KU vs Octagon of Tang Doom Game Chat.:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I sure as hell won’t rule it out.
For serious, we were so, so, so bad tonight and we won’t replicate that again. And those other teams will lose some weird ones too. It’s just too early. My honest opinion is the Big 12 (and really all of college hoops) is pretty bad and making any kind of concrete predictions is foolhardy.
We’re more than halfway through Big 12 play, it’s not early anymore. KU was bad again tonight, and you say KU won’t replicate that, but they’ve replicated that 5 times now and only won one of those games and that was the Indiana game. This team has played like shit on the road this year and that’s happened in 5 of their 6 road games. That’s not an exception at this point, that’s what this team is and the OSU game in Stillwater is the exception.
Seems to be a spot on assessment. What has traditionally characterized KU teams, esp. during the HCBS era, is winning B12 road games. Not this year. And, losing to bottom half of conference teams.
Perhaps things could change, but as @Texas-Hawk-10 notes, but the evidence indicates we are who we are at this point. There is a real prospect that we could go from preseason #1 to most losses in a season during Self’s tenure. No risk of not making the tournament, but unless there is some remarkable turnaround, we won’t be close to a #1 seed. More likely a 3-4.
We’ve shown we can beat anyone, esp. this year as there don’t seem to be any dominant teams. But, we’ve also shown we can be beaten by mediocre teams - and not just on a night when the opponent does something ridiculous. Very thin margin.
Could easily lose a 1st round game to a #13 or 14 seed, but also go on a 3-4 game run…
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Not to mention that that tournament-like two day turnaround gets us every time. Doesn’t bode well for Madness weekends.
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@bskeet Oh man, forgot about the phantom out of bounds call. Radio guys are saying oh wait he wasn’t out of bounds, and yet somehow mysteriously the officials can’t see what we saw on TV?
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@wissox There is no way we should be talking about refs. We just sucked. If we had played well, there would be no mention of bad calls. My opinion…
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SCORING GUARD VS PASSING GUARD
I know what half of you are saying… why can’t we get both? To some degree… we can. However, if you get a guard who focuses on passing, his scoring will suffer. You’re asking him to emphasize two things at the same time.
If Juan would just take most of those wide-open shots, we would all be happy. He’s not a bull-nose Frank Mason. But think back, Frank didn’t average nearly as high assists.
Juan needs to take all of those wide-open treys. His trey % is good. And then, he also needs to take some of those mid-range floaters again. Or even better, he needs to stop his drive and take a pull-up jump shot.
If he does these two things, he’ll be respected more for his shot and guarded closer. Even though it sounds good, like it will free up someone else, if he is guarded closer he might drop his assist numbers a bit.
There is a happy medium to be found… we all just know he has to take what the defense gives!
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@nuleafjhawk the refs were terrible for sure but had zero to do with our play. KJ missed a few bunnies, Kevin missed free throws, bunnies and open 3s. Furphy was a freshman on the road. I have very little complaints on Juan and Hunters game.
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@nuleafjhawk I know we shouldn’t, but when we have a chance to tie the game and they miss a lane violation how can you not say that wasn’t a big call? As bad as we played, we still have not benefitted in these losses from a fair whistle. They go together in my mind.
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@drgnslayr great post - this is what I’ve been saying all year. Bench sucks the 5th yr sr needs to step up and score more. There’s a reason when he scores double digits we are like 27-2 or something stupid.
I’d rather have a Frank but Juan is more than enough when he looks to score just half the time.
Juan can’t beat his man off the dribble which is why we don’t get many dump offs to Hunter or kj for dunks. Juan does play the pnr great when he’s aggressive to take the 3 and make the defense commit then the next time down he hits kj with that nasty pass for a dunk.
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@wissox I didn’t say that wasn’t a big call. But since the beginning of time, the losing team in any sport has blamed the officiating. Just win. Then there’s nothing to complain about.
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@wissox I don’t believe Kevin misses because of the lane violation. Just make the free throw and it removes the refs from the equation.
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Hate complaining about the refs but we had a lot of bad calls go against us in the late part of the game. It definitely makes a difference, even just on momentum which is a huge thing. The foul on Hunter during the trap that the announcers were saying was a bit of a stretch followed very closely to the out of bounds call where they said Juan touched it but clearly didn’t. The lane violation was another. It adds up.
Regarding Juan - if he was more of a scoring threat it would open up the rest of the team. Whether it be on drives or pulling defender out farther on the three point line. Stats are one thing but using the eye test there are many times i’m critical of him. Some bad turnovers. Drives where the shots are nowhere near close to going in off the backboard. Even Mason had his rough years with wild drives and suspect turnovers but he grew tremendously over the years and eliminated much of that. With how many years Juan has been in this role I would have expected a lot of this would be better than it is.
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The Jayhawks are not road warriors, more like road tail. If you can’t beat a bad team on the road no matter how bad a few calls are then you won’t go far. They are pushing into giant wuss territory.
The book is pretty well written. They will win all the remaining home games. Win maybe one more on the road. Win two in the big 12 tournament before flaming out. Win 1-3 games in the NCAA with one of the second/fourth games catching them.
Hope an editor comes along and rewrites the script.
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Never once in my complaining did I say the refs cost us the game. Calls were made as RockkChalkk pointed out that snowballed eliminating chances to affect a different outcome. Of course, we played like crap. Fatigue? Sure, maybe so. I don’t understand what it takes physically to play an NCAA basketball game. I do know that when I was in college I worked as a bricklayer laborer in the summers and would go home after an exhausting hot sweaty day and go to the park for an hour or two for basketball games. Way different but I think sometimes we overuse the fatigue excuse. Remember Wilt played an NBA season in which he averaged 48.5 minutes played per game.
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@wissox Wilt, bit of an outlier
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No Devonte Graham, Frank Mason run thru a brick wall and keep sprinting types. Hunter could not keep up anyway. It’s a great starting 5, but zero bench production is killer. The team is somehow just as thin as last season.
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And Juan has a title…the higher scoring guys he is being wistfully compared to never even got there.
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@mayjay Oh boy here we go again with using a team accomplishment to prop up an individual especially Juan
He was saved from being the all time scapegoat with his bad court awareness when he stepped ob
And we’ve been through this a ton the true pg was the guy who produced more against creighton, saved us against providence and again against unc….it isn’t even close
He had an alley oop and two steals to start a comeback and then sat on the bench as remy saved the day
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@kuballin10 Starter on a national championship team means nothing to you I guess. Spare us your drivel. It’s tiresome. “we’ve been through this a ton” is something a parent tells a child who doesn’t listen very well, stop treating us like children.
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Juan had an alley-oop and two steals and Remy saved the day while we ate potato chips.
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This Remy vs Juan conversation reminds me of the old Sherron vs RusRob from 2008. Remy was absolutely huge in several games and we certainly don’t win a title without his scoring in the NC. Juando was pretty average that game but did make some plays. The stepping out of bounds was wild and Juan is the most hated player in Kansas history if we lost that one no question. Long story, it’s good to have more that one PG on the team.
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Folks if Bill Self had a room temperature IQ and started Remy all year and fired Juan into the sun we go 40-0 every year
