The 5 spot
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I would love to see a Golden State style offense in college… Not sure it’s possible because there are enough additional possessions in an NBA game that it makes up for some of the turn-overs and missed shots from 3. Those long shots are strategically valuable in the pro game because they serve to stretch the D and the TOs are also a strategic sacrifice when you are moving at break-neck speed to break the defense down.
But the college game doesn’t allow for those kinds of mistakes (which are strategically useful in the pro game). It’s a game that puts much more value on each possession.
But there was a team that came close to doing it years ago. See LMU, 1990.
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I try to see this through Self’s eyes… a guess at best.
I think he will prioritize the minutes at the 5 by:
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Defensive prowess… hold ground on bigger bigs, switch well, decent shot blocking ability.
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Offensive prowess… in the paint
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Rebounding
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Foot speed… fast break basketball
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Offensive prowess from outside
Our biggest calling card this year should be defense. We have some decent pieces here to develop into one of the better defensive teams in the country. We need a 5 who can hold his ground, block some shots and always be a threat, switch well on screens. If we get that from a 5 we should end up a Top 5 defensive team nationally!
Someone has to be a scoring threat in the low post. Got to have it!
I put rebounding in there with defense. Both are necessary from our 5!
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@mayjay no sir its just if we look at the traditional 4 and 5 they are usually 6’9 to 7’0. With more guards and wings dominating the ball you don’t see the tradition 4 and 5. Having said that my point is kj is 6’7 so being a 5 even in a small lineup is a stretch.
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@ReggieKansas I think you missed my pun…
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I’ll double up on a thought I had in another thread…
We have 25 fouls to give. Let’s use em. Be aggressive. Put some shoulders into their bigs. Bump, battle and bruise.
In foul trouble? Next guy up. Tired? Next guy up.
Will Self do that? Maybe early on, but certainly not by mid conference year.
IMO: Zach and KJ will play a lot.
I can’t really offer an opinion on the new guys yet. I sure hope one of em can contribute — rebound and have a presence inside.
The days of the traditional 12345 spots on the floor are gone. Otherwise I think we’d have Zach playing the 4 spot, like Raef LaFrentz back in the day.
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@ReggieKansas said in The 5 spot:
@mayjay no sir its just if we look at the traditional 4 and 5 they are usually 6’9 to 7’0. With more guards and wings dominating the ball you don’t see the tradition 4 and 5. Having said that my point is kj is 6’7 so being a 5 even in a small lineup is a stretch.
If KJ had any rebounding ability, he’d work as a smallball 5. But his lack of rebounding ability limits how long he can play the 5 spot.
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Not center related but Mccullar was the best player for us today in the Illinois Scrimmage from Jeff Goodman
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Who has the best ability to score near the basket in hi lo game.
This is classic Self system.
When shots are not falling throw it inside and let your Big go to work.
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KU needs Clemence to win that job and play the majority of the minutes. He’s got the best overall skill set and has the highest ceiling of any of the 5’s.
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Texas Hawk,
Does he possess post moves and can he score with the back to the basket.
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@BeddieKU23 I guess I didn’t think Zach’s stats from last year passed the eye test for me. He was certainly a spark when he was in, but it felt more fluky than good.
KJ’s advanced rebounding stats are better than the “totals” show, but they could definitely be better… Wouldn’t argue that. Part of my thought with KJ getting minutes is that if he is going to close down the game with KJ (which is what I expect, personally) then there has to be some cohesion. So KJ will need to get some minutes. But that’s just me trying to predict Bill a bit.
I’m hoping this is all just Bill pulling levers with Zach and then he comes out and plays like he’s Matthew Hurt or something.
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@AsadZ This is a good question. And it is a bit concerning that we don’t have an answer.
I don’t think KJ or Zach are much in the post (though Zach is tall enough to score). I’m not sure what Zuby is capable of quite yet. Udeh does not look like he will be good 1v1, but at 7’0 with a long wingspan it is entirely possible he’s tall enough you still can’t stop him even if the post moves are ugly. Doke was a pretty good example of “you can’t teach size.” Even Sivio showed that sometimes just being a big athletic dude and getting good post position will get you points.
Zach probably has the edge right this second if I had to answer.
At the same time, not having anyone who can really do this makes me think some sort of 5-out with KJ could end up being the most effective/consistent offense we have this year. And I also think you’ll see Jalen get a lot more touches posting his man up. You saw Bill post Och and CB at times last season. I would expect the same with McCullar, Dick and Wilson.
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Posted some stuff about the 5 spot in the scrimmage thread.
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“If you want a ball-screen, run-to-the-rim, defensive team, you’d probably go with Ernest or Zuby,” Self said Wednesday. “If you want a skilled, pick-and-pop team that maybe doesn’t have the same presence defensively, you probably go with Cam or Zach. But we need one of those guys to emerge. And right now they’re all just right there the same.”
“At the end of the day, you’ve still got to be able to throw the ball (inside),” Self said. “Our last two baskets of the season last year were throw the ball to a guy (David McCormack) and have him make a four-footer. And right now we don’t consistently do that at all.”
There are other ways for KU to get the low-post scoring Self wants, and he said Wednesday that he thinks wings Jalen Wilson, Kevin McCullar Jr., Gradey Dick and MJ Rice all could be used in that type of role from time to time. "Absolutely,” Self said. “Now, the (bigs) need to be good enough passers that they can (throw it inside), but we’re messing with all that stuff right now.”
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@Kcmatt7 said in The 5 spot:
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“At the end of the day, you’ve still got to be able to throw the ball (inside),” Self said. “Our last two baskets of the season last year were throw the ball to a guy (David McCormack) and have him make a four-footer. And right now we don’t consistently do that at all.”
I am in unbearable pain.
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I mean, yeah, it’s true but gosh I hope that isn’t the takeaway from the season.
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@BShark because we have to depend on it or because nobody can do it? I assume it’s the first.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in The 5 spot:
@BShark because we have to depend it that or because nobody can do it? I assume it’s the first.
Both but mostly the first. I do think Bill will adapt though.
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He certainly had some moments, good and bad. Looked like a freshman & then dealt with some injury issues that stunted further growth. I’m not sure we saw him in the best light last year. I’m disappointed we are not hearing that he’s been that good so far leading up. In fact it sounds like the all the bigs have struggled. We have had a lot of steady years in the post when we think back to even the Doke days. Doke/Dave/Mitch played a lot of minutes here the last 5-6 years and now that mantle is finally being passed on. Sounds like a lot of growing pains going on right now and something that will likely spill over well into the season.
KJ will play & I have long thought he’d still get minutes at the 5 after solid play there in spurts last year as a freshman. When you earn that kind of trust from coach you tend to keep it. I just think it’s a valid concern about his rebounding. He had 10 total defensive rebounds last year in his minutes. Guards grab more boards than that without even trying. It’s weird because he was pretty darn good at stealing a possession here and there on offense, so you know he has the ability to get the ball.
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Why not Jalen at the 5?
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I mean we all know what he can/can’t do defensively. He’s a great college rebounder and not much else defensively.
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@Jethro said in The 5 spot:
Why not Jalen at the 5?
Even at 6’8", I remember thinking Mitch Lightfoot was undersized at the 5 when the opponent got the ball to their 5. At a “listed” 6’7", 225 lbs., other teams will post him up and let their big men go to work and score. KJ will be OK on offense; way different that DMac, but OK. The mismatches will ocurr on the defensive end of the court. But, I loved KJ’s defense on the perimeter, like NC’s Manek. so when the opponent’s 4 or 5 regularly plays outside, KJ would be my choice.
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Unless Zach/Udeh solidify the 5 position we’re going to be a bit small there all year. Zuby, athletic but 6’8, KJ is shorter than that but again he’s an athletic freak. Cam is tall but not good.
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I do think we will go small some with Wilson at the 5. But it isn’t a 30 mpg solution
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And will be very matchup dependent as well if it happens. I see no reason to play our best player at the 5 and get him beat up. Guys are just going to have to step up and rise to the occasion.
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@Kcmatt7 said in The 5 spot:
I do think we will go small some with Wilson at the 5. But it isn’t a 30 mpg solution
I’m thinking we could go that way until Bill can get the 5 spot sorted out. I just wish each of our 5s had an extra year of experience.
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@Jethro pretty sure you see them do this only when the offense is struggling to get going. But otherwise a last resort.
I definitely get what you’re saying though.
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There is definitely some vindication from people who said we should go after a transfer at the 5. It would be nice to have Kofi in the building lol
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Very fun read in here.
I like to read diversity in opinions on the 5 and we have many ideas going.
I don’t think we become a real powerhouse team without the 5 being resolved. Self has always relied on the post and even last year, as he designed around his previous necessary hi-lo the season came down to low post scoring down the stretch.
I’m never going to say “never” about Self because he has proven me wrong before. He is a guy who changes with the game and the players he has. But as of today, I think his focus right now is to weed through the post guys and maybe nails it down to 2 soon to carry the weight. Ability to develop low post scoring will be key and I can’t help but think strength will be very very important. Look at all those guys and judge them by strength and you have maybe the best indicator (guess) as to how this is going to work itself out.
I have to admit I’m intrigued with Clemence… just not quite as committed as @Texas-Hawk-10 yet. Clemence clearly has a huge skill set, but will it be the skills needed in the low post? Kind of reminds me of EJ… is it necessary to sacrifice his development for his future in order to fit into KU’s needs today? If I’m Clemence… I’m working on my handles, outside shot, crossover, creating scoring space all over the floor and less low post finishes.
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Yeah, perhaps a transfer would have been ideal.
Here’s my rebuttal against that though. We recruited Zach, KJ, Zuby, Udeh in two recruiting classes to play the position. You develop and play these guys that you have invested in. Your security blanket of having an experienced post player is gone after reaping the benefits of guys sticking around. We forget Dave/Mitch struggled mightily as younger players. I get the portal let’s you go out and get a ready-made guy but these KU coaches get paid a great deal to also develop HS talent & long-term that’s the best way to get out of this situation.
Think we are seeing a combination of Self expecting a certain level of play in the post & new guys struggling to match that standard right now. I think we need to prepare as if this will be a constant battle all year long. It’s probably going to take most of this year before we see someone start to emerge. These things take time & this position group is probably a year away from being a strength again.
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Clemence’s game is more poor man’s Brady Manek.
I feel like Self is going to have to be way more creative in how he gets points down low. A lot of his traditional stuff he likes to run doesn’t have a traditional guy to make the plays yet. If the guard play is strong, then that will help them.
I do agree that he’s going to have to settle in on 1-2 options and live with it. I can’t see a platoon being effective.
A lot of my analysis has been about finding the best offensive option in the post but defensively I think that’s the bigger issue Self isn’t talking about. It sounds as if the void Dave/Mitch left is significant right now
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It’s too bad we couldn’t get Doke another year of eligibility.
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This is an interesting conversation. Kind of an old school conversation in a way though, right?
The model in basketball lately has been mobile bigs who can handle and shoot, not necessarily post up and dominate inside like Shaq back in the day.
Looking at the last half decade or so of national champions, Kansas last year was really the only team with a traditional big with size with Big Dave. you have to go way back to 2015 Duke to find a traditional big over 6-9. Villanova? Virginia?
So, I dunno if this is even a conversation.
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Dave had another year available to him which would have been ideal.
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UNC had a traditional big (Bacot) and made it to the Finals. Flo Thamba was a traditional big on the Baylor team that won it 2 years ago. Doke in 19-20 was on the best team in America. Virginia’s big Diakite on their title squad was more of the mobile type.
At least recently, its proven to be effective to have that traditional big in the lane.
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@BeddieKU23 said in The 5 spot:
Dave had another year available to him which would have been ideal.
Any way we could get him on the phone?
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The irony is that the staff sort of shoo’d Dave away. At least that is what it sounded like.
Basically said thanks, but we’re ready to move on. Reaping a bit of what we sowed.
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I think for the new brand of ball, Zach fits pretty well. The key is for him to hit from 3. As soon as that happens, the defense gets spread out and opportunities open up for everyone.
And on D, you switch, switch, switch.
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Perhaps… but it sure wasn’t done because Self wanted him gone and replaced. Self pushed him to leave because this was his time to go, even if he preferred to stick around.
I love the idea… just uncertain of the effectiveness. I think back to Kieff popping the julie from top of the key… it was sweet when it worked. But how effective is it? Your big out there having zero chance of a rebound and taking a shot that is probably best left for a guard. We should always be able to scheme a good trey for a guard.
I hope I’m proven wrong here… would be great if Zach could go 40% from outer space!
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@drgnslayr said in The 5 spot:
Perhaps… but it sure wasn’t done because Self wanted him gone and replaced. Self pushed him to leave because this was his time to go, even if he preferred to stick around.
I love the idea… just uncertain of the effectiveness. I think back to Kieff popping the julie from top of the key… it was sweet when it worked. But how effective is it? Your big out there having zero chance of a rebound and taking a shot that is probably best left for a guard. We should always be able to scheme a good trey for a guard.
I hope I’m proven wrong here… would be great if Zach could go 40% from outer space!
Here’s what having a 5 who can knock down 3’s does, it opens up the paint for guys like Wilson, McCullar, Rice, and Harris to drive and do damage in the middle of the floor because teams would have to guard Clemence on the perimeter.
This is also why KU’s best chance this year is if Clemence develops. This team doesn’t project to be an elite shooting team, but being able to space the floor and get penetration with the wings and guards is still getting the low post points that Self wants, just not in a traditional way.
Based on last year, Clemence also has the mentality to be an above average low post defender and rebounder because he is tough and he’s aggressive. He may not have the ceiling that Udeh has on defense, but Clemence does have the highest overall ceiling of any of the bigs on the roster.
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@BeddieKU23 said in The 5 spot:
UNC had a traditional big (Bacot) and made it to the Finals. Flo Thamba was a traditional big on the Baylor team that won it 2 years ago. Doke in 19-20 was on the best team in America. Virginia’s big Diakite on their title squad was more of the mobile type.
At least recently, its proven to be effective to have that traditional big in the lane.
Well, sure kinda sorta maybe on Flo? Dude averaged a career best 6 pts a game his last year. So not really counting him as a go to guy to get a basket down low.
So we got Bascot and KU’s offerings. The cupboard isn’t exactly bursting at the seams is my point.
I’m by no means arguing against the idea of a big who can get a bucket, just saying they don’t exist as much in today’ game any more.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in The 5 spot:
Here’s what having a 5 who can knock down 3’s does, it opens up the paint for guys like Wilson, McCullar, Rice, and Harris to drive and do damage in the middle of the floor because teams would have to guard Clemence on the perimeter.
Exactly. It’s a big if, but there’s a lot of speed with that crew, so if they can rev the engine and stretch the defense… good things should ensue.
If you think about it, that’s kind of what they did last year in the tourney. The first shot against Nova and UNC was Ochi hitting a 3. That couldn’t be a coincidence. It would be interesting to go back and look at KUs first set and shot in each game to see how often they tried to establish the outside threat and tug at that D from the get-go.
And last years team was fast. Fast break points were a priority. They passed quickly and this occasionally resulted in some sloppy looking passes, especially early in the season. But when it got dialed in, it was a thing of beauty.
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Yeah Flo was the starter but not a very impactful one to their success that year. Crazy that he’s still around.
I agree the traditional Big’s importance has diminished with how the game has evolved at that position. For KU’s scheme it has been critical that they have a guy that can go get a bucket.
Clemence was an interesting take from a fit perspective. Bigs that can stretch the floor have been rare in the Self era. DLaw was the last one and he was only around 1 year.
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Great post… hope it works out that way!
I get revved with this idea… Clem offers so many assets, including passing, and his footwork outside of the low post is like nothing we have ever had from a big. Put this guy on the perimeter and we have a lot less fouls called on us because Clem is skilled at setting a screen.
Imagine his potential for pick and pop, pick and roll?
He’s also a solid passer who can easily pass over defenses into the post for darting guys.
To really take advantage of Clem we will need to commit early to having him be our guy. There is pluses and negatives… the plus is we can have other traditional bigs back him up who run traditional offense and then we have two very different offensive approaches we can run at teams and they have to practice against this before facing us. The neg is we have to work hard to get proficient at both.
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We want Zach to separate from the pack I feel, but it’s an uphill battle because he’s not what you would call a Bill Self big.
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@drgnslayr said in The 5 spot:
Great post… hope it works out that way!
I get revved with this idea… Clem offers so many assets, including passing, and his footwork outside of the low post is like nothing we have ever had from a big. Put this guy on the perimeter and we have a lot less fouls called on us because Clem is skilled at setting a screen.
Imagine his potential for pick and pop, pick and roll?
He’s also a solid passer who can easily pass over defenses into the post for darting guys.
To really take advantage of Clem we will need to commit early to having him be our guy. There is pluses and negatives… the plus is we can have other traditional bigs back him up who run traditional offense and then we have two very different offensive approaches we can run at teams and they have to practice against this before facing us. The neg is we have to work hard to get proficient at both.
What do you mean by “his footwork outside of the low post is like nothing we have ever had from a big?”
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He recruited Zach knowing this about him already. Going to take time but I think he gets there
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@Kcmatt7 said in The 5 spot:
What do you mean by “his footwork outside of the low post is like nothing we have ever had from a big?”
Clem is nimble with his feet. For example, when he sets a pick he can position his feet the right way to prevent a lot of offensive fouls. He can also know how to set a better screen by being in the exact spot that will best slow down the defender’s path.
Sounds like a little thing, but it ends up counting big!
Think back on all the offensive fouls that were called on guys like Big Dave. He either arrives late or his position is ripe for drawing the call.
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@drgnslayr I wouldn’t say he’s doing things we’ve never seen before on the perimeter. Zach is pretty cinderblock footed in my opinion. Reminds me a lot of Carlton Bragg the way he moves to be honest…
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The only thing Zach has shown to be elite at so far is shooting. He could possibly be the best shooting big man we’ve ever seen under Self. Stroke is absolutely pure. I assume he probably has good BBIQ as well.
But he is physically weak in the post. He also appears to be pretty vertically challenged based on everything I’ve seen. Even his HS tape shows this. He’s not going to set better screens than probably any of the other bigs (all of whom are bigger in stature). He isn’t going to be a better rim protector than anyone but maybe Cam.
Now, if Zach can always be in the right spot and do the little things, he probably is the best option. Having a potential lineup where all 5 guys can hit it from deep is tough af to defend. Might force teams to play smaller, in which case Zach at 6’10 can go post guys up for easier buckets. The ideal situation is Zach taking a big step forward and owning the position.
I’m just not sure that Self is willing to concede some easy buckets when he has a 7’2 wingspan and two other freak athletes on the bench he can put in that spot.
