Self Has Covid
-
@HemisphereHawk said in Self Has Covid:
I believe very strongly that someone can protect themselves if they choose to.
Bullshit. You must be ignoring the many stories of people who did everything they could and caught it anyway, most of whom died (which is why these stories made the news).
Also, you refer to anyone doing everything they can to protect themselves as cowering in fear. Your freedom to do what you want stops at the point where what you are doing endangers others. Smoking is a great example. Have you managed to miss how it is being regulated to save other people from exposure?
You left out gun-related deaths. I assume you think that everyone’s freedom includes playing with guns in public, taking them into any place of business (your covid aerosols are basically bullets), and just letting anyone scared of guns cower in fear.
Do you tell flu patients to just go out as soon as they are feeling okay, and anyone scared of the flu just has to deal with it? As a doctor, your attitude toward public health is one reason we will be in this mess for way too long.
-
Does anyone have any stats on how effing tired i am of hearing covid stats? Don’t be a dumb ass - get the shot. Modern medicine virtually wiped out smallpox - it can wipe out this too. If we’re not stupid.
-
@mayjay said in Self Has Covid:
@HemisphereHawk said in Self Has Covid:
I believe very strongly that someone can protect themselves if they choose to.
Bullshit. You must be ignoring the many stories of people who did everything they could and caught it anyway, most of whom died (which is why these stories made the news).
Also, you refer to anyone doing everything they can to protect themselves as cowering in fear. Your freedom to do what you want stops at the point where what you are doing endangers others. Smoking is a great example. Have you managed to miss how it is being regulated to save other people from exposure?
You left out gun-related deaths. I assume you think that everyone’s freedom includes playing with guns in public, taking them into any place of business (your covid aerosols are basically bullets), and just letting anyone scared of guns cower in fear.
Do you tell flu patients to just go out as soon as they are feeling okay, and anyone scared of the flu just has to deal with it? As a doctor, your attitude toward public health is one reason we will be in this mess for way too long.
This type of response is completely uncalled for and the admins should step in. Nobody should be attacked like this for sharing their opinion. The reason why people don’t speak up is because one side of this discussion is not able to have a civil conversation and respect the other side. A non doctor preaching to a doctor about their holier than thou medical opinions, amazing.
-
@nuleafjhawk said in Self Has Covid:
Does anyone have any stats on how effing tired i am of hearing covid stats? Don’t be a dumb ass - get the shot. Modern medicine virtually wiped out smallpox - it can wipe out this too. If we’re not stupid.
Covid will never get wiped out the way smallpox has. It will be much more like the flu in that it’s something people will have to adapt to. As we’re seeing now, the Covid vaccine doesn’t prevent a person from contracting Covid, but it does appear like it drastically reduces the severity of the symptoms.
Going forward, the biggest things will be developing vaccines for specific strains of Covid like we have for the flu and learning how long these vaccines are effective for. Will it be yearly like the flu, will they be good for multiple years? These are the questions that need to be answered, but I just don’t see Covid disappearing.
-
@RockkChalkk agree 100%. I am also tired of the know it alls calling people they don’t even know dumb or stupid because they have a different opinion. Just sad
-
Please, i think this is a valuable conversation to have if we can all try a little harder to be civil. I respect the ask. In order to feel comfortable talking about this we have to all put our best foot forward, myself included.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 Hmmmm, your well thought out, coherent and sensible post makes a lot more sense - but I’m still tired of listening to Covid talk. Everybody GET A SHOT!
Lol
-
@nuleafjhawk said in Self Has Covid:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Hmmmm, your well thought out, coherent and sensible post makes a lot more sense - but I’m still tired of listening to Covid talk. Everybody GET A SHOT!
Lol
you may be tired of hearing about it but not changing anything. Your going to continue to here about it a it’s here to stay
-
I don’t believe he called anyone dumb or stupid? He said BS.
-
I believe as you… this will be around indefinitely. It may eventually run out of steam if more people would vaccinate and practice social distancing.
What I do feel comfortable saying is that mRNA treatments are here to stay! This has been the direction of medical research for many years now. Most people don’t realize that our current mRNA vaccines are only possible from all the work that lead up to this disease.
We can expect mRNA to become one of our best tools against much of disease, including cancer. One of my closest friend’s mother was treated with a mRNA formula over a decade ago for her cancer and it was extremely effective.
It is a friggin’ pity more information isn’t being promoted to the public on mRNA… it’s origins, current track record, and potential in the very short future!
I’m not worried about needing regular mRNA vaccines. It’s the wave of the future and will be available to help us in many ways. Most likely, I will want mRNA treatments soon, if not to treat an issue, to prevent the need!
Watching segments of our population blasting our science community is very disturbing. Of course, it is always important to have healthy criticism and questions. Unfortunately, that is not what we are experiencing.
-
I also can’t imagine any Drs around here with that same attitude, being exposed without a mask? Then you expose your patients? Even my vet had drop off service.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Thank you for actually understanding my point.
I should explain that my reaction was based on reading in that comment that vaxxed Grandma needs to take responsibility for not getting exposed and should not go out, but not a word about anyone who wants to not get vaxxed having any responsibility to stay home, wear a mask, and not expose anyone.
This is so contrary to medical safe practices that it always needs to be called out. And yes, the attitude helps endanger everybody by encouraging the spread, and possible (inevitable?) mutations of covid.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 you’re right and my apologies to mayjay. I just wish people would understand that circumstances are different for everyone and wish we could refrain from calling BS on someone’s opinion. Some of the world’s brightest minds have differences of opinion on this terrible virus I’m trying to respect everyone’s opinion and just asking for the same in return. Certainly no hard feelings!!
-
@Oldmanhawk I respect opinions that do not disparage people’s efforts to stay healthy and advocate freedom with no responsibility. But I understand your point and will try to make my points after the anger is only simmering rather than raging!
-
@mayjay I hear you and respect that!!!
-
I started a new job where i have to go into the office today. Felt good, except for the endangering the lives of my unvaccinated children part. Nobody can enter the building without proof of vaccination, but nobody in the building is wearing a mask. Feels like a bad scene if a variant, delta or future, can be transmitted by vaccinated people
-
@approxinfinity I think it’s more like unmasked vaccinated people are getting it from unmasked unvaccinated people, but I’m not a Dr. But I suppose, maybe one of those vaccinated people could’ve been around an unvaccinated person? Highly unlikely? Just eat away from them. That sounds pretty crazy!
-
I’m not an epidemiologist so take this for what it is worth… 2 cents.
There is an Israeli study supporting infection rates from vaccinated and unvaccinated people and it is much lower from vaccinated people, but it isn’t zero. There exists a risk that vaccinated people can still spread Covid.
This supports the idea that vaccinated people should still mask up to limit spread… but also vaccinated people still catch the virus, just not having symptoms bad enough to be hospitalized (for the most part).
And we don’t know the extent of risk for long-term symptoms including with vaccinated people who later catch Covid.
-
@mayjay I respect that as well. I am an advocate for freedom, but not when it possibly puts others at risk of not being able to live. And that can be applied to many things, but let’s just stay on the pandemic topic for now.
-
@Oldmanhawk You’re good, and so is he. We should try - and I’ve been guilty, as well - to keep our discourse civil. He wasn’t attacking you, just said bullshit. @mayjay is blunt lol. I don’t think that he was trying to attack you.
-
I mean, I just do not understand why roughly 43% of America has chosen to not get vaccined? “Well, it wasn’t fully studied, was rushed!” Man, what is ever “fully” studied? And the craziest part? Of that 43%, many - and putting it out there, I am not a so-called liberal - are among those that complained the loudest about our economy being shutdown.
-
@RockkChalkk Copy and paste.
-
@Marco said in Self Has Covid:
I mean, I just do not understand why roughly 43% of America has chosen to not get vaccined? “Well, it wasn’t fully studied, was rushed!” Man, what is ever “fully” studied? And the craziest part? Of that 43%, many - and putting it out there, I am not a so-called liberal - are among those that complained the loudest about our economy being shutdown.
There is a different group of people whose fear of the vaccine’s safety is understandable to me despite the fact that it is an emotional reaction.
We have all heard of the Tuskegee research scandal, but the details and breadth of what I think should have been prosecuted as criminal neglect of medical responsibility should not be forgotten. From the CDC webpage:
In 1932, the USPHS, working with the Tuskegee Institute, began a study to record the natural history of syphilis. It was originally called the “Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male” (now referred to as the “USPHS Syphilis Study at Tuskegee”). The study initially involved 600 Black men – 399 with syphilis, 201 who did not have the disease. Participants’ informed consent was not collected. Researchers told the men they were being treated for “bad blood,” a local term used to describe several ailments, including syphilis, anemia, and fatigue. In exchange for taking part in the study, the men received free medical exams, free meals, and burial insurance.
By 1943, penicillin was the treatment of choice for syphilis and becoming widely available, but the participants in the study were not offered treatment.
In 1972, an Associated Press story about the study was published. As a result, the Assistant Secretary for Health and Scientific Affairs appointed an Ad Hoc Advisory Panel to review the study. The advisory panel concluded that the study was “ethically unjustified”; that is, the “results [were] disproportionately meager compared with known risks to human subjects involved.” In October 1972, the panel advised stopping the study. A month later, the Assistant Secretary for Health and Scientific Affairs announced the end of the study. In March 1973, the panel also advised the Secretary of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare (HEW) (now known as the Department of Health and Human Services) to instruct the USPHS to provide all necessary medical care for the survivors of the study.1 The Tuskegee Health Benefit Program (THBP) was established to provide these services. In 1975, participants’ wives, widows and children were added to the program. In 1995, the program was expanded to include health, as well as medical, benefits. The last study participant died in January 2004.
On May 16, 1997, President Bill Clinton issued a formal Presidential Apology for the study.
(some paras omitted, incl re $10 million settlement of class action suit)
That is a horror to anyone who hears about it, but to a population that is descended from survivors of slavery and Jim Crow and lynchings, the violation of trust in medical treatments is deeply seared into their memories. One can only imagine the reactions to that news as it was spread from family to family, from parents to children.
It is all the more horrifying that this abuse continued for nearly 3 decades after the Nuremberg research protocols mandated informed consent in all human experiments, after the universal revulsion to Nazi medical torture in the guise of research.
This stuff happened within the memories of millions of Blacks. For them to be doubtful, even scornful, about whether they should trust government public health assurances that the vax is safe is regrettable, but certainly understandable.
Perhaps when the vaccines receive full approval, the negative connotation of “experimental treatment” can be discarded and we will see this vulnerable population being more accepting.
-
@Marco said in Self Has Covid:
I mean, I just do not understand why roughly 43% of America has chosen to not get vaccined? “Well, it wasn’t fully studied, was rushed!” Man, what is ever “fully” studied? And the craziest part? Of that 43%, many - and putting it out there, I am not a so-called liberal - are among those that complained the loudest about our economy being shutdown.
Adding to my previous post, according to figures that I previously didn’t have about two thirds of both our black and hispanic populations have not been vaccined either. Wanted to add that, to be fair. It is not just a white Midwestern and Southern thing.
-
Well, we’re in a giant dystopian experiment where about half of the population think that those who get a vaccination are likely to either die or otherwise come to some unfortunate end, and the other half of the population think that those who don’t get a vaccination are likely to die or get seriously ill --possibly permanently.
If you could place a bet on one of these two outcomes, where would you place your money?
-
Just want to say that even though I believe in the science behind mRna vaccines that I still don’t wish death on anyone like some of the crazy lunatics you see on twitter.
-
@Marco said in Self Has Covid:
I mean, I just do not understand why roughly 43% of America has chosen to not get vaccined? “Well, it wasn’t fully studied, was rushed!” Man, what is ever “fully” studied? And the craziest part? Of that 43%, many - and putting it out there, I am not a so-called liberal - are among those that complained the loudest about our economy being shutdown.
A few reasons off the top of my head:
- They’ve already had covid.
- They realize they could get the vaccine and still get covid.
- They realize they could get the vaccine and still transmit covid.
- They realize they could get the vaccine and still be told to mask up.
- Therefore, 1-4), they don’t see the point.
- They have unanswered questions about the vaccine that aren’t publicly discussed.
- They see people who raise questions about the vaccine being censored.
- 6-7) They don’t like being told what to think or what to do.
- They’re young and/or healthy and statistically not at risk.
- They don’t have at-risk folks in their lives they worry about.
- The older folks they care about aren’t worried about covid.
- They don’t like being shamed into decisions.
- They don’t trust big Pharm.
- They view the vaccine as a real-time experiment without a proven track record.
- They’re anti-vaxxers across the board.
…and so on. People usually don’t do things for no reason—often many reasons. You may not like their reasons but that doesn’t mean reasons don’t exist.
-
Number 16. They look no further than Fox news for info–not answers, just info–supporting their fear/hesitancy/paranaoia.
-
It’s a bummer. I’ve been researching methods to nudge vaccine hesitant folks (remember, vaccine hesitant != vaccine resistant) into getting it and it’s tough. Lots of psychological obstacles to get through and my natural language (empiricism, reason) doesn’t get the job done. You can send all the studies, data, and articles you want but that won’t do much good. Have to meet people where they’re at.
-
@mayjay said in Self Has Covid:
Number 16. They look no further than Fox news for info–not answers, just info–supporting their fear/hesitancy/paranaoia.
Damn Murdoch media…sucks.
-
@FarmerJayhawk said in Self Has Covid:
Have to meet people where they’re at.
Scared to go where these people’s heads are at!
-
@Oldmanhawk Opinions are important to have. It makes very little sense to me say the managing of a virus is dependent on peoples opinion. People crack me up when they say ‘see Covid wasn’t that bad, only 600000 people died. You and everyone else reading here would have lost many friends and relatives if we hadn’t taken drastic measures to slow the spread.
-
@wissox we all have different things going on in our lives which help us form our own opinion. I’m not asking anyone to agree, but to accept that is the case. BTW…I have lost friends and family to this virus
-
@Oldmanhawk Sorry for your losses. What I think I’m trying to say is I don’t see how one can have a varying opinion about a very contagious virus. It makes zero sense to me. Seriously. That’s what I’m trying to say. While there’s not clear evidence of this I have zero doubts its true. Americans have died because someone asserted their ‘right’ not to wear a mask. When opinions lead to deaths or debilitating illnesses then I question that this is a matter of opinion.
-
Imagine a Day 0 Water Crisis scenario somewhere in the U.S. right now… Would you see panic and people hoarding/guzzling water or would you see people actually band together and help thy neighbor? We suck as a people right now.
I’m not sure when the switch happened, but the United States I grew up learning about had people who seemingly cared for one another… Now it just seems like anything that is an inconvenience makes people turn into selfish assholes. And the worst part is that people don’t even have to use sound logic to justify being such a shitty asshole, there is plenty of high profile people carrying that cross for you in the name of “just having an opinion” or “just asking questions.”
The vaccine is safe. The vaccine is effective AF compared to a flu shot. Yes it is your right not to get one. No you don’t deserve to have zero consequences if you don’t get it. Yes you are the reason this is being prolonged if you don’t get it. No we shouldn’t be careless in the near term for the sake of “business” or “living life” or “the economy” just because you can’t be bothered to take the time to go perform your civic duty.
-
“The vaccine is safe.” How do you know? You don’t know that for certain because nobody does. If its so safe, why do the manufacturers need immunity? Are we just supposed to take the word of the people that first blamed the origins of this on a bat, then a snake, then a pangolin, but vehemently dismissed anyone questioning whether it came from the Coronavirus Gain of Function research lab 2 blocks from the wet market? 6,000+ people have died in the US directly after getting the shot based on data reported to VAERS thus far, not counting the tens of thousands of adverse effects.
“The vaccine is effective AF” So what are you so worried about if others choose not to take it? It shouldn’t impact you at all. Sure, government is making it impact you but its not the non-vaxers fault, blame government. No matter how many get the shot, they will move the goalpost even farther. Remember “two weeks to stop the spread”? It will never end.
This pandemic has been a jackpot for so many people, there are 40 new Billionaires in 2020 alone directly resulting from COVID! I’m sure the DC lobbyists aren’t using any of this money to buy government influence.
-
Behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel. Example: It was hypocritical to demand respect from students without respecting them in return. Definition of hypocritical. Merriam-Webster
-
@wissox said in Self Has Covid:
@Oldmanhawk Sorry for your losses. What I think I’m trying to say is I don’t see how one can have a varying opinion about a very contagious virus. It makes zero sense to me. Seriously. That’s what I’m trying to say. While there’s not clear evidence of this I have zero doubts its true. Americans have died because someone asserted their ‘right’ not to wear a mask. When opinions lead to deaths or debilitating illnesses then I question that this is a matter of opinion.
Using this logic, lets draw some other conclusions:
-
Opinion: its our right to not be forced to wear a mask. Data: Tens of thousands die from the flu every year. Assuming masks work, we should never be without a mask even after covid since someone might transmit the yearly flu to someone else that might die. Conclusion: ban our right from being maskless ever again.
-
Opinion: automobiles are a great way to transport people. Data: Thousands of people die every year from car accidents that aren’t their fault. Conclusion: ban our right to drive cars.
-
Opinion: its our right to own guns. Data: people die every year from being shot. Conclusion: ban guns.
-
Opinion: Knives are useful in all kitchens. Data: People die every year from knife injuries from someone else. Conclusion: ban knives.
-
Opinion: Responsibly using fire for cooking, warmth, etc in our homes is great. Data: People die every year from fires started by someone else. Conclusion: ban fire.
-
-
@RockkChalkk said in Self Has Covid:
“The vaccine is safe.” How do you know? You don’t know that for certain because nobody does. If its so safe, why do the manufacturers need immunity? Are we just supposed to take the word of the people that first blamed the origins of this on a bat, then a snake, then a pangolin, but vehemently dismissed anyone questioning whether it came from the Coronavirus Gain of Function research lab 2 blocks from the wet market? 6,000+ people have died in the US directly after getting the shot based on data reported to VAERS thus far, not counting the tens of thousands of adverse effects.
“The vaccine is effective AF” So what are you so worried about if others choose not to take it? It shouldn’t impact you at all. Sure, government is making it impact you but its not the non-vaxers fault, blame government. No matter how many get the shot, they will move the goalpost even farther. Remember “two weeks to stop the spread”? It will never end.
This pandemic has been a jackpot for so many people, there 40 new Billionaires in 2020 alone directly resulting from COVID! I’m sure the DC lobbyists aren’t using any of this money to buy government influence.
Point 1: the mRNA vaccines are among the safest vaccines ever developed when tested in trials. Multiple vaccines have been through phase 3 without many issues at all. In a broader context they did find some instance of blood clots after vaccination. However, it’s worth noting the risk of blood clots is much higher with covid, “While the rate of VTE after vaccination was, for example, around 1.3 fold higher than background rates, it was 8-fold higher after a diagnosis of COVID-19.” (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421) https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/is-the-covid19-vaccine-safe
Point 2: vaccines are nearly 100% effective at preventing severe disease. We know this. However, it does not provide 100% sterilizing immunity, meaning you can still pass the virus onto others. We expected this. If family members to refuse vaccination and get very sick because of me, that affects me A LOT. Virginia does this nice thing where they separate outbreaks by vaccination status. From May 1 to July 22, 97.28% of cases were in those not fully vaccinated. Among those fully vaccinated, .016% became infected with covid (breakthrough cases). Also among the fully vaccinated, .0013% were hospitalized. That’s 61 out of more than 4.5 million people. https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/coronavirus/covid-19-data-insights/covid-19-cases-by-vaccination-status/
Point 3: do not, do not, do not, do not ever use VAERS to make any judgements about vaccine safety. They’re all self-reported data (i.e. not validated) and not investigated before they’re in the database. Careful analysis reveals significant underlying conditions OR vaccines administered as a Hail Mary to save someone as they’re dying from covid. It counts as an adverse event in VAERS, but not anything to be relied on for actual evaluation.
Point 4: I looked up the 40 billionaires claim. That’s worldwide, and many were CEO’s of the firms that developed vaccines (see point 3). That seems totally fine to me? I mean, not like they were ripping anyone off. If they want to lobby Congress, fine I suppose. Not sure what a test tube maker would be that interested in. https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2021/04/06/meet-the-40-new-billionaires-who-got-rich-fighting-covid-19/?sh=226aad3317e5
-
@RockkChalkk The odds of you dying from covid (if you catch it) are 600k in 35M - 1.7%
The odds of you dying from the vaccine are 6000 in 165M - which is something like .003%. Or 1 in 27,500.
The average age of those hospitalized from covid in the KC area in July was 34. Please do your civic duty. Help to break the chain. Help to protect others. The process is really easy and streamlined.
-
@FarmerJayhawk great post! Solid information from referenced sources. No name calling or finger pointing. Refreshing. Thank you
-
@Oldmanhawk thank you!
-
The problem with these arguments is when it’s basketball season I have to try to forget whom I vehemently disagree with so we can discuss our favorite team.
-
There’s new news and it’s worse. Read it from the Washington post and shorter update from cnn. https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/29/politics/cdc-masks-covid-19-infections/index.html
Take it however you wish.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Unfortunately, the unvaxxed will continue to ignore anything coming from CDC because they think it is a huge power grab by Biden. After all, everyone knows getting people to wear masks or get vaxxed has such great benefits to any would be dictator.
So they will ignore it and then, when some Epsilon or Gamma or Tau or Phi or Omega variant comes along that kills vaxed people at the same rate, the unvaxxed will say, “See? The vax don’t work.” At which point any survivor has my support in knocking unvaxxed heads off.
-
@mayjay said in Self Has Covid:
@Crimsonorblue22 After all, everyone knows getting people to wear masks or get vaxxed has such great benefits to any would be dictator.
This definitely made me chuckle…
-
-
@Kcmatt7 Basically the logic people are using lol.
Also to liken it to driving again, just because you have a seatbelt (vax) doesn’t mean you should drive head on into oncoming traffic either (ie not wear a mask and attend large gatherings).
-
@mayjay said in Self Has Covid:
@Crimsonorblue22 Unfortunately, the unvaxxed will continue to ignore anything coming from CDC because they think it is a huge power grab by Biden. After all, everyone knows getting people to wear masks or get vaxxed has such great benefits to any would be dictator.
So they will ignore it and then, when some Epsilon or Gamma or Tau or Phi or Omega variant comes along that kills vaxed people at the same rate, the unvaxxed will say, “See? The vax don’t work.” At which point any survivor has my support in knocking unvaxxed heads off.
Not fair, my man. A huge power grab by Biden? Then what of the black and hispanic communities? Are they worried about a Biden power grab as well?
-
@Marco Did you miss my extensive post about the history underlying Black suspicion?
I don’t know what underlies Latino hesitancy except possible suspicion of anything federal.
