Self Has Covid
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@Oldmanhawk I respect opinions that do not disparage people’s efforts to stay healthy and advocate freedom with no responsibility. But I understand your point and will try to make my points after the anger is only simmering rather than raging!
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@mayjay I hear you and respect that!!!
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I started a new job where i have to go into the office today. Felt good, except for the endangering the lives of my unvaccinated children part. Nobody can enter the building without proof of vaccination, but nobody in the building is wearing a mask. Feels like a bad scene if a variant, delta or future, can be transmitted by vaccinated people
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@approxinfinity I think it’s more like unmasked vaccinated people are getting it from unmasked unvaccinated people, but I’m not a Dr. But I suppose, maybe one of those vaccinated people could’ve been around an unvaccinated person? Highly unlikely? Just eat away from them. That sounds pretty crazy!
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I’m not an epidemiologist so take this for what it is worth… 2 cents.
There is an Israeli study supporting infection rates from vaccinated and unvaccinated people and it is much lower from vaccinated people, but it isn’t zero. There exists a risk that vaccinated people can still spread Covid.
This supports the idea that vaccinated people should still mask up to limit spread… but also vaccinated people still catch the virus, just not having symptoms bad enough to be hospitalized (for the most part).
And we don’t know the extent of risk for long-term symptoms including with vaccinated people who later catch Covid.
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@mayjay I respect that as well. I am an advocate for freedom, but not when it possibly puts others at risk of not being able to live. And that can be applied to many things, but let’s just stay on the pandemic topic for now.
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@Oldmanhawk You’re good, and so is he. We should try - and I’ve been guilty, as well - to keep our discourse civil. He wasn’t attacking you, just said bullshit. @mayjay is blunt lol. I don’t think that he was trying to attack you.
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I mean, I just do not understand why roughly 43% of America has chosen to not get vaccined? “Well, it wasn’t fully studied, was rushed!” Man, what is ever “fully” studied? And the craziest part? Of that 43%, many - and putting it out there, I am not a so-called liberal - are among those that complained the loudest about our economy being shutdown.
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@RockkChalkk Copy and paste.
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@Marco said in Self Has Covid:
I mean, I just do not understand why roughly 43% of America has chosen to not get vaccined? “Well, it wasn’t fully studied, was rushed!” Man, what is ever “fully” studied? And the craziest part? Of that 43%, many - and putting it out there, I am not a so-called liberal - are among those that complained the loudest about our economy being shutdown.
There is a different group of people whose fear of the vaccine’s safety is understandable to me despite the fact that it is an emotional reaction.
We have all heard of the Tuskegee research scandal, but the details and breadth of what I think should have been prosecuted as criminal neglect of medical responsibility should not be forgotten. From the CDC webpage:
In 1932, the USPHS, working with the Tuskegee Institute, began a study to record the natural history of syphilis. It was originally called the “Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male” (now referred to as the “USPHS Syphilis Study at Tuskegee”). The study initially involved 600 Black men – 399 with syphilis, 201 who did not have the disease. Participants’ informed consent was not collected. Researchers told the men they were being treated for “bad blood,” a local term used to describe several ailments, including syphilis, anemia, and fatigue. In exchange for taking part in the study, the men received free medical exams, free meals, and burial insurance.
By 1943, penicillin was the treatment of choice for syphilis and becoming widely available, but the participants in the study were not offered treatment.
In 1972, an Associated Press story about the study was published. As a result, the Assistant Secretary for Health and Scientific Affairs appointed an Ad Hoc Advisory Panel to review the study. The advisory panel concluded that the study was “ethically unjustified”; that is, the “results [were] disproportionately meager compared with known risks to human subjects involved.” In October 1972, the panel advised stopping the study. A month later, the Assistant Secretary for Health and Scientific Affairs announced the end of the study. In March 1973, the panel also advised the Secretary of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare (HEW) (now known as the Department of Health and Human Services) to instruct the USPHS to provide all necessary medical care for the survivors of the study.1 The Tuskegee Health Benefit Program (THBP) was established to provide these services. In 1975, participants’ wives, widows and children were added to the program. In 1995, the program was expanded to include health, as well as medical, benefits. The last study participant died in January 2004.
On May 16, 1997, President Bill Clinton issued a formal Presidential Apology for the study.
(some paras omitted, incl re $10 million settlement of class action suit)
That is a horror to anyone who hears about it, but to a population that is descended from survivors of slavery and Jim Crow and lynchings, the violation of trust in medical treatments is deeply seared into their memories. One can only imagine the reactions to that news as it was spread from family to family, from parents to children.
It is all the more horrifying that this abuse continued for nearly 3 decades after the Nuremberg research protocols mandated informed consent in all human experiments, after the universal revulsion to Nazi medical torture in the guise of research.
This stuff happened within the memories of millions of Blacks. For them to be doubtful, even scornful, about whether they should trust government public health assurances that the vax is safe is regrettable, but certainly understandable.
Perhaps when the vaccines receive full approval, the negative connotation of “experimental treatment” can be discarded and we will see this vulnerable population being more accepting.
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@Marco said in Self Has Covid:
I mean, I just do not understand why roughly 43% of America has chosen to not get vaccined? “Well, it wasn’t fully studied, was rushed!” Man, what is ever “fully” studied? And the craziest part? Of that 43%, many - and putting it out there, I am not a so-called liberal - are among those that complained the loudest about our economy being shutdown.
Adding to my previous post, according to figures that I previously didn’t have about two thirds of both our black and hispanic populations have not been vaccined either. Wanted to add that, to be fair. It is not just a white Midwestern and Southern thing.
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Well, we’re in a giant dystopian experiment where about half of the population think that those who get a vaccination are likely to either die or otherwise come to some unfortunate end, and the other half of the population think that those who don’t get a vaccination are likely to die or get seriously ill --possibly permanently.
If you could place a bet on one of these two outcomes, where would you place your money?
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Just want to say that even though I believe in the science behind mRna vaccines that I still don’t wish death on anyone like some of the crazy lunatics you see on twitter.
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@Marco said in Self Has Covid:
I mean, I just do not understand why roughly 43% of America has chosen to not get vaccined? “Well, it wasn’t fully studied, was rushed!” Man, what is ever “fully” studied? And the craziest part? Of that 43%, many - and putting it out there, I am not a so-called liberal - are among those that complained the loudest about our economy being shutdown.
A few reasons off the top of my head:
- They’ve already had covid.
- They realize they could get the vaccine and still get covid.
- They realize they could get the vaccine and still transmit covid.
- They realize they could get the vaccine and still be told to mask up.
- Therefore, 1-4), they don’t see the point.
- They have unanswered questions about the vaccine that aren’t publicly discussed.
- They see people who raise questions about the vaccine being censored.
- 6-7) They don’t like being told what to think or what to do.
- They’re young and/or healthy and statistically not at risk.
- They don’t have at-risk folks in their lives they worry about.
- The older folks they care about aren’t worried about covid.
- They don’t like being shamed into decisions.
- They don’t trust big Pharm.
- They view the vaccine as a real-time experiment without a proven track record.
- They’re anti-vaxxers across the board.
…and so on. People usually don’t do things for no reason—often many reasons. You may not like their reasons but that doesn’t mean reasons don’t exist.
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Number 16. They look no further than Fox news for info–not answers, just info–supporting their fear/hesitancy/paranaoia.
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It’s a bummer. I’ve been researching methods to nudge vaccine hesitant folks (remember, vaccine hesitant != vaccine resistant) into getting it and it’s tough. Lots of psychological obstacles to get through and my natural language (empiricism, reason) doesn’t get the job done. You can send all the studies, data, and articles you want but that won’t do much good. Have to meet people where they’re at.
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@mayjay said in Self Has Covid:
Number 16. They look no further than Fox news for info–not answers, just info–supporting their fear/hesitancy/paranaoia.
Damn Murdoch media…sucks.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in Self Has Covid:
Have to meet people where they’re at.
Scared to go where these people’s heads are at!
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@Oldmanhawk Opinions are important to have. It makes very little sense to me say the managing of a virus is dependent on peoples opinion. People crack me up when they say ‘see Covid wasn’t that bad, only 600000 people died. You and everyone else reading here would have lost many friends and relatives if we hadn’t taken drastic measures to slow the spread.
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@wissox we all have different things going on in our lives which help us form our own opinion. I’m not asking anyone to agree, but to accept that is the case. BTW…I have lost friends and family to this virus
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@Oldmanhawk Sorry for your losses. What I think I’m trying to say is I don’t see how one can have a varying opinion about a very contagious virus. It makes zero sense to me. Seriously. That’s what I’m trying to say. While there’s not clear evidence of this I have zero doubts its true. Americans have died because someone asserted their ‘right’ not to wear a mask. When opinions lead to deaths or debilitating illnesses then I question that this is a matter of opinion.
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Imagine a Day 0 Water Crisis scenario somewhere in the U.S. right now… Would you see panic and people hoarding/guzzling water or would you see people actually band together and help thy neighbor? We suck as a people right now.
I’m not sure when the switch happened, but the United States I grew up learning about had people who seemingly cared for one another… Now it just seems like anything that is an inconvenience makes people turn into selfish assholes. And the worst part is that people don’t even have to use sound logic to justify being such a shitty asshole, there is plenty of high profile people carrying that cross for you in the name of “just having an opinion” or “just asking questions.”
The vaccine is safe. The vaccine is effective AF compared to a flu shot. Yes it is your right not to get one. No you don’t deserve to have zero consequences if you don’t get it. Yes you are the reason this is being prolonged if you don’t get it. No we shouldn’t be careless in the near term for the sake of “business” or “living life” or “the economy” just because you can’t be bothered to take the time to go perform your civic duty.
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“The vaccine is safe.” How do you know? You don’t know that for certain because nobody does. If its so safe, why do the manufacturers need immunity? Are we just supposed to take the word of the people that first blamed the origins of this on a bat, then a snake, then a pangolin, but vehemently dismissed anyone questioning whether it came from the Coronavirus Gain of Function research lab 2 blocks from the wet market? 6,000+ people have died in the US directly after getting the shot based on data reported to VAERS thus far, not counting the tens of thousands of adverse effects.
“The vaccine is effective AF” So what are you so worried about if others choose not to take it? It shouldn’t impact you at all. Sure, government is making it impact you but its not the non-vaxers fault, blame government. No matter how many get the shot, they will move the goalpost even farther. Remember “two weeks to stop the spread”? It will never end.
This pandemic has been a jackpot for so many people, there are 40 new Billionaires in 2020 alone directly resulting from COVID! I’m sure the DC lobbyists aren’t using any of this money to buy government influence.
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Behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel. Example: It was hypocritical to demand respect from students without respecting them in return. Definition of hypocritical. Merriam-Webster
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@wissox said in Self Has Covid:
@Oldmanhawk Sorry for your losses. What I think I’m trying to say is I don’t see how one can have a varying opinion about a very contagious virus. It makes zero sense to me. Seriously. That’s what I’m trying to say. While there’s not clear evidence of this I have zero doubts its true. Americans have died because someone asserted their ‘right’ not to wear a mask. When opinions lead to deaths or debilitating illnesses then I question that this is a matter of opinion.
Using this logic, lets draw some other conclusions:
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Opinion: its our right to not be forced to wear a mask. Data: Tens of thousands die from the flu every year. Assuming masks work, we should never be without a mask even after covid since someone might transmit the yearly flu to someone else that might die. Conclusion: ban our right from being maskless ever again.
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Opinion: automobiles are a great way to transport people. Data: Thousands of people die every year from car accidents that aren’t their fault. Conclusion: ban our right to drive cars.
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Opinion: its our right to own guns. Data: people die every year from being shot. Conclusion: ban guns.
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Opinion: Knives are useful in all kitchens. Data: People die every year from knife injuries from someone else. Conclusion: ban knives.
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Opinion: Responsibly using fire for cooking, warmth, etc in our homes is great. Data: People die every year from fires started by someone else. Conclusion: ban fire.
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@RockkChalkk said in Self Has Covid:
“The vaccine is safe.” How do you know? You don’t know that for certain because nobody does. If its so safe, why do the manufacturers need immunity? Are we just supposed to take the word of the people that first blamed the origins of this on a bat, then a snake, then a pangolin, but vehemently dismissed anyone questioning whether it came from the Coronavirus Gain of Function research lab 2 blocks from the wet market? 6,000+ people have died in the US directly after getting the shot based on data reported to VAERS thus far, not counting the tens of thousands of adverse effects.
“The vaccine is effective AF” So what are you so worried about if others choose not to take it? It shouldn’t impact you at all. Sure, government is making it impact you but its not the non-vaxers fault, blame government. No matter how many get the shot, they will move the goalpost even farther. Remember “two weeks to stop the spread”? It will never end.
This pandemic has been a jackpot for so many people, there 40 new Billionaires in 2020 alone directly resulting from COVID! I’m sure the DC lobbyists aren’t using any of this money to buy government influence.
Point 1: the mRNA vaccines are among the safest vaccines ever developed when tested in trials. Multiple vaccines have been through phase 3 without many issues at all. In a broader context they did find some instance of blood clots after vaccination. However, it’s worth noting the risk of blood clots is much higher with covid, “While the rate of VTE after vaccination was, for example, around 1.3 fold higher than background rates, it was 8-fold higher after a diagnosis of COVID-19.” (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3886421) https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/is-the-covid19-vaccine-safe
Point 2: vaccines are nearly 100% effective at preventing severe disease. We know this. However, it does not provide 100% sterilizing immunity, meaning you can still pass the virus onto others. We expected this. If family members to refuse vaccination and get very sick because of me, that affects me A LOT. Virginia does this nice thing where they separate outbreaks by vaccination status. From May 1 to July 22, 97.28% of cases were in those not fully vaccinated. Among those fully vaccinated, .016% became infected with covid (breakthrough cases). Also among the fully vaccinated, .0013% were hospitalized. That’s 61 out of more than 4.5 million people. https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/coronavirus/covid-19-data-insights/covid-19-cases-by-vaccination-status/
Point 3: do not, do not, do not, do not ever use VAERS to make any judgements about vaccine safety. They’re all self-reported data (i.e. not validated) and not investigated before they’re in the database. Careful analysis reveals significant underlying conditions OR vaccines administered as a Hail Mary to save someone as they’re dying from covid. It counts as an adverse event in VAERS, but not anything to be relied on for actual evaluation.
Point 4: I looked up the 40 billionaires claim. That’s worldwide, and many were CEO’s of the firms that developed vaccines (see point 3). That seems totally fine to me? I mean, not like they were ripping anyone off. If they want to lobby Congress, fine I suppose. Not sure what a test tube maker would be that interested in. https://www.forbes.com/sites/giacomotognini/2021/04/06/meet-the-40-new-billionaires-who-got-rich-fighting-covid-19/?sh=226aad3317e5
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@RockkChalkk The odds of you dying from covid (if you catch it) are 600k in 35M - 1.7%
The odds of you dying from the vaccine are 6000 in 165M - which is something like .003%. Or 1 in 27,500.
The average age of those hospitalized from covid in the KC area in July was 34. Please do your civic duty. Help to break the chain. Help to protect others. The process is really easy and streamlined.
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@FarmerJayhawk great post! Solid information from referenced sources. No name calling or finger pointing. Refreshing. Thank you
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@Oldmanhawk thank you!
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The problem with these arguments is when it’s basketball season I have to try to forget whom I vehemently disagree with so we can discuss our favorite team.
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There’s new news and it’s worse. Read it from the Washington post and shorter update from cnn. https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/29/politics/cdc-masks-covid-19-infections/index.html
Take it however you wish.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Unfortunately, the unvaxxed will continue to ignore anything coming from CDC because they think it is a huge power grab by Biden. After all, everyone knows getting people to wear masks or get vaxxed has such great benefits to any would be dictator.
So they will ignore it and then, when some Epsilon or Gamma or Tau or Phi or Omega variant comes along that kills vaxed people at the same rate, the unvaxxed will say, “See? The vax don’t work.” At which point any survivor has my support in knocking unvaxxed heads off.
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@mayjay said in Self Has Covid:
@Crimsonorblue22 After all, everyone knows getting people to wear masks or get vaxxed has such great benefits to any would be dictator.
This definitely made me chuckle…
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@Kcmatt7 Basically the logic people are using lol.
Also to liken it to driving again, just because you have a seatbelt (vax) doesn’t mean you should drive head on into oncoming traffic either (ie not wear a mask and attend large gatherings).
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@mayjay said in Self Has Covid:
@Crimsonorblue22 Unfortunately, the unvaxxed will continue to ignore anything coming from CDC because they think it is a huge power grab by Biden. After all, everyone knows getting people to wear masks or get vaxxed has such great benefits to any would be dictator.
So they will ignore it and then, when some Epsilon or Gamma or Tau or Phi or Omega variant comes along that kills vaxed people at the same rate, the unvaxxed will say, “See? The vax don’t work.” At which point any survivor has my support in knocking unvaxxed heads off.
Not fair, my man. A huge power grab by Biden? Then what of the black and hispanic communities? Are they worried about a Biden power grab as well?
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@Marco Did you miss my extensive post about the history underlying Black suspicion?
I don’t know what underlies Latino hesitancy except possible suspicion of anything federal.
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@mayjay Yeah, I saw it. But everyone needs to get over the reasons for their not getting it, imo
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I’ve lived and visited in many countries. No other country on earth has such a focus on free speech as the USA. And while I believe this is one of the best assets we have, I also believe it has made us almost impossible to agree on issues as a united country. That really came to my reality during the last administration when “alternate facts” became a jingle.
So much of this is politics.
You could make a law where it is illegal to place a loaded gun in your mouth because of safety concerns and half the country would walk around with a loaded gun in their mouths to protest. Essentially, this is what is happening now.
It’s all a pathetic view of freedom of speech. To disrespect free speech at this level, to literally thumb one’s nose at free speech may end up playing a part in ending it.
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@drgnslayr said in Self Has Covid:
I’ve lived and visited in many countries. No other country on earth has such a focus on free speech as the USA. And while I believe this is one of the best assets we have, I also believe it has made us almost impossible to agree on issues as a united country. That really came to my reality during the last administration when “alternate facts” became a jingle.
So much of this is politics.
You could make a law where it is illegal to place a loaded gun in your mouth because of safety concerns and half the country would walk around with a loaded gun in their mouths to protest. Essentially, this is what is happening now.
It’s all a pathetic view of freedom of speech. To disrespect free speech at this level, to literally thumb one’s nose at free speech may end up playing a part in ending it.
My friend. One of the things that struck me during Obama’s initial run for office and I thought interesting and got to say I agreed then - - I agree now. - He said one of the most asked questions when he was out on the trail across the world. He said the most frequent question he was asked was - - - - Is AMERICA as divided as it seems to be ? - -I thought what a great question. Because whether we want to admit it or not - -AMERICA IS a very divided country right now. Very Susceptable to being in a world of hurt from other Countries. I love our freedom of speech , people need to be able to express their thoughts , beliefs , and feelings. No matter who you are - - where you are , your not going to have 100 % in agreement. Who’s really to say if this person or that person is in the wrong on their positions , certainly not me. I can only go on my beliefs , my standards and views. I agree with you , not saying what your saying is wrong by any means - just saying I don’t think this country will ever believe 100 % with one another.
I love my country , and also and so proud to have THAT freedom of Speech - -freedom of expression all of what this Country stands for. As far as the COVID goes I’ve got my feelings about all of it too , won’t be accepted by some and accepted by others, just one of the things that I don’t think like you say is ever going to be made possible to reach that 100 % agreement on many issues we face ever more likely then not. - -That’s where the divided part comes in effect and in reality I’m some concerned for this country and where we are at right now - -but that’s a whole different topic my friend. You have a great day I’m done rambling on and on and making no sense lol.
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@drgnslayr @jayballer67 Yes, it is getting to where if you voice - depending upon who and where you are - an opposite opinion, then you are automatically dubbed either a flaming liberal or neo-nazi. Our media has been that way for a long time, and we are now becoming the same.
That is a door that leads to group think and one of two choices, either communism or fascism… I guess that if I have to choose between one of those two, I am not - nor will I ever be - ready to give up on our Freedom of Speech and will choose neither. In fact, regardless of anything, I will not ever give that up. If ever this nation does that, we are toast - done.
Do away with the very freedoms - all walks of life, races and creeds, colors and personal beliefs - that have held us all together? Do away with them? Nope, I am not onboard. That would lead to the end of our nation.
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@jayballer67 enjoyed your post! So thankful we have the right to be divided. God bless the USA
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@Marco huh? I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Thank you for your service for this great country
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@Oldmanhawk yes, YOU are right. There are liberals, in betweens, and conservatives here. We try to not keep it personal, give our viewpoints and then move on. We want you here. Cool?
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@Marco you haven’t said anything to offend me. Not sure what’s going on. I just replied to jayballers post. I certainly didn’t converse with any administrators
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@Oldmanhawk good, don’t.
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This post is deleted!
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@BShark Exactly. I suppose that if someone wants to drive without wearing their seatbelt that’s on them. They generally will only put their own lives in danger. However, a drunk driver (the unvaccinated) is a danger to themselves and others.
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KUBuckets feels like my safe oasis. I feel like I can come in here and say what I want to say, and will be treated fairly. I don’t get offended easily, or even at all. If people purposely attack me I realize they have a problem and I don’t take on their hatred/anger/frustration. I love humanity and am accepting of differences. It’s what makes the world go 'round!
Politically, I am firmly independent. I think for myself and agree/disagree with both parties… often sighting a different perspective than both. My friendships go from fascist rightwingers to communist-like lefties. The exposure to all confirms my belief in most answers “between the lines” of extremism.
Mixing health science with politics is frightening. Lives have been lost and more lives will be lost moving forward. I’m convinced if more people aren’t vaccinated soon we will see death counts probably worse than the past year. It can be rationalized as “karma” but I don’t feel any better when lives are lost that don’t agree with my perspective. This is tragic on so many levels. My heart goes out to anyone suffering with this disease or has lost family to it.
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Guys, this is getting tougher. My own mom is very vaccine hesitant. I think the worst thing for her long term was getting a mild covid case last year. She’s seeing rumors of local folks in rural Kansas having strokes right after getting the vaccine. Which, is there a connection? I guess it’s possible. Likely? The data don’t bear it out. So do I tell my grandparents (mid 80’s, lots of comorbidities) to not see her until she gets the vaccine? What do we do about holidays?
This is the big psychological with this situation; not only is it literally tearing families apart with people dying needlessly, it’s needlessly separating families by forcing us to make this stupid, needless decisions. There’s a non-zero chance I’ll get to see my grandparents (we’re all vaccinated) but not my own mom (we might create a bubble since it’s a low vaccine take up county).
Tl;dr: anti-vaxxers make me cranky
