KJ Rebounding
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Rebounding is 90% want to and 10% skill. KJ has to want to do it and he doesn’t.
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Hunger, hustle, physicality, and skill. All play a part. The skill is about post placement. Some guys can see a ball on the way and know where to go before it makes contact with the goal. Timing your jump is a skill. Knowing how to clear space (or hold space) without fouling is a skill. Then it is all about FIGHT!
KJ has a good body to go fight… but just looking at the paragraph above, he’s pretty weak in all of those areas.
He is giving up HUGE next-level draft potential because of this one area. This bleeds over into defense, too.
I go nuts watching him play… and leaving so much game in the locker room. Has anyone told him yet?
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I think he tens to get more fouls when aggressively rebounding. Maybe Self would rather keep him on the court.
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He plays GREAT DEFENSE, and he boxes out extremely well, pushing his man away from the basket, which puts him in a poor rebounding position, but clears the way for his teammates to rebound.
And the only thing I can think of on offense, where he does stand around and gets easily boxed out, is that the coaches WANT HIM TO DO THAT. Perhaps to be able to get back on D quickly is my only guess. Remember, the reason why Self and the staff like him so much is that he is highly coachable. If they wanted KJ to rebound, he would be fighting to get under the basket .
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The point of boxing out is to put yourself in position to rebound as well as prevent the opponent from grabbing the rebound - he half gets it on the defensive end. But if you can’t predict where the ball is going as it leaves the shooters hand you’re not going to be in position. He just doesn’t see the angles. - I bet he’s a mark at the pool table.
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Zeke snagged 10 because he hustles… little guy… 10!
Muscular KJ, and with more height, 3!
I’m going to stay on his arse all year. He just refuses to go after it. Sorry, but that is pathetic! And I love KJ… but he needs tough love!
Self even mentioned rebounding being an issue with this team.
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The 4-man here has to rebound at a consistent clip and it doesn’t happen currently. He even played the 5 last night and rebounding was an issue with his man during those possessions. It’s a known weakness and not going away.
What I do see collectively is just better rebounding since we have more depth, so we are not reliant on just 2 guys to board like last season. We got 9 boards from the bench and were +4 on Mich St for the night. I think that relieves some stress on KJ but we’ll see.
So far we are +8, -1 +4 on the boards. Should be a coaching focus as we head to conference play where specific teams certainly make it a big part of their identity (Houston etc).
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Regarding Flory and rebounding, there were 2 or 3 plays that stood out to me.
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on the offensive end i think he missed a shot then tried to make up for it by physically going into a guy to rebound and drew an early foul. This one was unnecessary and costly.
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He got called for i think his 4th foul on the biggest ticky tack foul of the game. An opposing player was turned toward basket and Flory got a hand on ball but they called it over the back.
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When Flory got back in he brought a ball down perpendicular to the defender but because he lost it (lack of grip strength) the defender did not get called for a foul.
All 3 of these are freshman things, but imo Flory clearly goes after it and in a few months i think this could be 2 less fouls against and 1 more foul for and an additional possession or 2
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Just so I understand, the argument here is: Our hall of fame coach, a guy that is considered to be one of the best ever, is giving huge minutes to a favored veteran player even though he is limited offensively and can’t or won’t rebound? Is he that blind? Or is there more to the picture?
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@Bosthawk ha, love it. I appreciate your analysis regarding boxing out and defense.
That being said, I do very much want to see more Flory and am happy if the KJ-storr-flory-hunter minutes are fluid.
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@Bosthawk Yes, that’s 100% what I’m saying not sure on the others.
Self has a history of playing guys he trusts even if they limit the ceiling of the team. They are in the right spot even though they can’t always make the play.
If he sat down and discussed this right now he talk about “how athletic kj is, how he can switch and guard anyone 1-5 defensively and he just jumps out of the gym - dunking everything. He hustles big time and dives all over the floor for loose balls.”
All this somehow translates to bad rebounding because he’s got alligator arms but even with that he gets up higher than other dudes yet still sucks at it.
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I totally respect Dr. Bill. But that dog can’t hunt. How many games has KJ been a Jayhawk? His rebounding numbers are low. We all know he has the muscle to fight for balls.
He does do other things. He’s a unique player in D1 that is hard, if not impossible, to prepare for playing against. His little midrange floaters and jumpers have worked out well.
When he gets a monster slam it definitely juices the troops.
Why doesn’t he put up decent rebound numbers? It’s not like we are just comparing a few games here.
I have quickly become a total “Zeke freak!” I love that kid! He’s quicker than KJ… but more than anything, he hungers for the ball.
If we can figure out KJ and get his rebound numbers up, we should be able to bank 7 - 10 extra points per game. It can easily be the difference between an early exit of late March run.
For all we know… Dr. Bill is addressing this with KJ.
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I mentioned it the other day, but the Jayhawker with Bill Self podcast the other day I heard Bill saying something about KJ comparing to Ochai. My eyebrows raised slightly but I tend to trust Bill Self in this too.
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All good points. I know, in the past, HCBS has played guys that are scorers, but couldn’t play defense (Perry Ellis, Dedric Lawson come to mind and I’m sure you guys could come up with a bunch more past players that fit this catagory). Or guys that could rebound and be a defensive force in the paint but really poor scorers ( Landen Lucas, etc) The reasoning is that Self had really no choice I suppose… but I still think that KJ’s lack of rebounding doesn’t bug Self enough, because if it did, he would limit his minutes or, because KJ will do whatever the coaches ask him to do, really try hard to get under the basket a lot more than he is now. As we all know , rebounding is a HUGE part of basketball and can be the difference between winning and losing.
And speaking of working on important things, is it just me, or does it seem that every dam team we play can shoot free throws better than us??
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@Bosthawk I don’t disagree with your assessment of Bill in the slightest. But the putting him on the pedestal like he never makes a mistake is what drives me nuts. Not saying you are but quite a few do on here. He’s great and we all love him but he’s also not made the FF with some of his most talented teams here. I’ll still beat my drum that people get mad at me for beating the last two years…… we ain’t going past the sweet 16 with KJ playing 30 plus minutes a game.
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@kjayhawks Bill is the king at winning meaningless big 12 titles to only fall flat in the tourney
He is the absolute definition of consistency as we’ve never missed the tourney like uconn, uk, Unc ect but we’ve only won 2 titles in his time here and we honestly should have 4 or 5….hes underachieved with some incredible rosters
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NEWS FLASH: Right now, most of our guys can’t individually guard, and they also don’t know how to play weakside defense. All we are doing is seeing if we can put up more points than the other team. This is going to backfire, big time, if we don’t get our act together!
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I like the first part of your post. Yes… he has consistency! He screams consistency!
Realistically… he most likely would have had a third championship in the Covid close-down year.
I will quickly put this in perspective… name a better performing team west of Kentucky for the last 20 years?
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@kuballin10 Speaking of under achieving ,with the talent he has – UMM Coach Cal calling on Line Fuck up-- - oh ya and by th e way wonders if your still on for Dinner
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@kjayhawks I agree there is no reason to put Bill on a pedastal. I gripe about both him and Andy Reid during games on specific decisions (get someone out before a 3rd foul in the first half; give Morris more chip blocks to seal the left side; etc).
But it is a huge stretch from that to constantly be bitching about his strategic decision-making. For example, I don’t know anything about why they make certain choices on whom to play but I would infer that a heckuvalot more info is available to the coaches than to me. (Practices, trainer’s reports, ass’t coaches’ scouting, etc.)
What gets my dander up (now there is an old fogey phrase) is when people attribute those decisions to some presumed reason they set forth (Bill just plays favorites who hurt the team; Andy is dumb to never let PM do a QB sneak on 4th and <1; etc.), and then go on rants about how wrong that reason is.
In other words, both these guys have more experience AND more information about the small and large pictures both, and over time I have gained perspective about how in contrast much of my analysis is colored by my reactions that are often emotional in the heat of the moment. That doesn’t make these guys infalible, but their records so far give me great confidence in giving them the benefit of the doubt that on the whole they are much smarter coaches than I ever could be. They’ve earned it.
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If KJ has an injured ankle, shouldn’t he take the next two game off? Or is it the type of ankle injury that playing won’t further injure?
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@mayjay said in KJ Rebounding:
whom to play but I would infer that a heckuvalot more info is available to the coaches than to me. (Practices, trainer’s reports, ass’t coaches’ scouting, etc.) What gets my dander up (now there is an old fogey phrase) is when people attribute those decisions to some presumed reason they set forth (Bill just plays favorites who hurt the team; Andy is dumb to never let PM do a QB sneak on 4th and <1; etc.), and then go on rants about how wrong that reason is. In other words, both these guys have more experience AND more information about the small and large pictures both, and over time I have gained perspective about how in contrast much of my analysis is colored by my reactions that are often emotional in the heat of the moment. That doesn’t make these guys infalible, but their records so far give me great confidence in giving them the benefit of the doubt that on the whole they are much smarter coaches than I ever could be. They’ve earned it.
Pretty much 100%. These are two of the most experienced and successful coaches in their sports. I gotta believe they know more than those of us in the stands.
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@mayjay I’m not @kuballin10 I just calling it like I see it and the two years I was a 100 percent correct
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Yikes! Some of us are going to H - E - Double hockey sticks because we think KJ is hugely underperforming in rebounds. I guess now Self is defending KJ and others from fan challenges:
I don’t see how anyone can defend a guy his size getting so few rebounds. In a certain sense… KJs poor rebound counters the rest of the optimism he gives the team with his dunks. I’ll take Ws over dunks any day of the week. At some point we will face a more challenging stretch of the season and I’ll bet the ranch we will be right back here screaming about lack of rebounds, though I will compliment some of our new guys for really going after balls… Zeke comes to mind first!
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@mayjay Andy and Bill are really similar. Consistently good all the time but until they have those elite players they can’t achieve prominence
Jimmys and joes > X’s and O’s But ultimately you need both
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@drgnslayr Kj hasn’t rebounded well for half a decade here as @Texas-Hawk-10 has pointed out for years
Bill can defend his guy all he wants but KJ’s lack of rebounding isn’t because the coaches are telling him to just take his man off the glass
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@bskeet said in KJ Rebounding:
These are two of the most experienced and successful coaches in their sports. I gotta believe they know more than those of us in the stands.
100%! But it’s good for fans not just to praise emperors. It then becomes a kingdom, with the emperor wearing no clothes. I criticize aspects of KU basketball… doesn’t mean I don’t have the highest respect and admiration for Self and company.
KJ drives me crazy! I have to admit that. I’d like to borrow him from KU basketball for just one week. Take him into the streets for some reality ball where you can use a pipe wrench and not be called for a foul. I agree with Self’s defense about one thing with KJ… I know he’s tough. He can lose a loved one and jump on a plane and go fight hard for his team. He just needs the experience of Jaybate’s meso ball… with the threat of being decapitated if he loses. For those fairly new to KUBuckets… here is a better explanation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame
Of course… the above description lacks the color and character when described by Jaybate… our long-lost resident Jayhawk philosophical writer. Can’t believe I described him in so few words! lol
BACK TO SELF: I am very happy with Bill and the state of affairs surrounding Kansas basketball! In my book, he has really accomplished 3 NCs (one was without the trophy ceremony). We have consistent winning basketball, a classy coach who knows how to talk to the public and has a deep-felt respect for his players, and we always stand a chance of winning another title! That’s all we can ask for. Can he do better at winning more trophies? I’m sure all of us can do better with our lives. I am always going to bark my vision from my official position as couch potato. It may be valuable enough to earn me a stick of butter to melt on top!
I’m still very excited about this year… especially excited if we achieve some tiny level of defensive efficiency!
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KJ is almost always switched to a guard and on the perimeter when a shot goes up. Dude is getting way too much flak for this. It’s actually stupid.
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@Kcmatt7 Nah he was our 5 man and still couldn’t board and guarded bigs 75-80% of games.
Trust me I tried to defend kj cause he’s so athletic which I love (granted he has minimal actual basketball skills) and @Texas-Hawk-10 put me in my place with the actual stats.
I took up arms that kj can board but in reality he’s never ever been good at it
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@kuballin10 said in KJ Rebounding:
@Kcmatt7 Nah he was our 5 man and still couldn’t board and guarded bigs 75-80% of games.
Trust me I tried to defend kj cause he’s so athletic which I love (granted he has minimal actual basketball skills) and @Texas-Hawk-10 put me in my place with the actual stats.
I took up arms that kj can board but in reality he’s never ever been good at it
They switched everything when he played the 5 still. Regardless it is one of the dumbest things this fanbase has focused on in recent memory. Are we getting dominated in the boards every night? No we have a footer averaging a double double and a footer coming off the bench for him with highly productive rebounding.
We don’t need KJ to get 7 rebounds a game.
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@drgnslayr Well said. I rag on Self and wish I had his ear for some of my thoughts in which he’d probably show me practice and game film proving me wrong.
If he did my job he’d kick my arse at it I’m sure cause whatever he does he’s gonna succeed at
Dudes a stud but yeah I rag on his shortcomings but wouldn’t want another coach at KU. Whoever has to replace him I hope becomes “the guy” in college bball as I don’t want to be the next Indiana, Nova (post J wright) or heck what unc is becoming….
I think Bill will play around with defense and then finally make lasting changes in February.
He better start having Hunter play drop coverage on screens though otherwise we need to check his mental health cause it’s very un-Self like to not know how to tell a big to defend a simple ball screen!
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Like I’m 100x more annoyed with him not developing a functional jumper in 4 years than I am with his rebounding stats. Guy is probably a pro if he can hit a corner 3 at a decent clip.
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Yeah it’s bizarre. Coming out of high school there was videos of him training with older dudes and he was hitting 3’s. It just doesn’t seem to be natural for him to shoot outside the paint. His free throw form is the best it’s been in his 4 yrs here and hopefully he’s a guy that can make high 60’s, low 70’s this year. At this point that’s where my focus is on with his shooting, make your free ones at a good enough clip and we will be fine. We have enough guys to stretch the defense
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@Kcmatt7 said in KJ Rebounding:
Like I’m 100x more annoyed with him not developing a functional jumper in 4 years than I am with his rebounding stats. Guy is probably a pro if he can hit a corner 3 at a decent clip.
I’ve been avoiding joining the KJ conversation. It’s kinda like Harris discussions. He is what he is, and has been.
Self loves KJ basically because he can switch on defense. That’s really it. A pro? Hmmm.
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@rockchalkjayhawk said in KJ Rebounding:
@Kcmatt7 said in KJ Rebounding:
Like I’m 100x more annoyed with him not developing a functional jumper in 4 years than I am with his rebounding stats. Guy is probably a pro if he can hit a corner 3 at a decent clip.
I’ve been avoiding joining the KJ conversation. It’s kinda like Harris discussions. He is what he is, and has been.
Self loves KJ basically because he can switch on defense. That’s really it. A pro? Hmmm.
Yea the NBA hates guys who can guard 5 positions and knows their role.
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KJ will have a long pro career overseas if he wants to
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@Kcmatt7 said in KJ Rebounding:
@rockchalkjayhawk said in KJ Rebounding:
@Kcmatt7 said in KJ Rebounding:
Like I’m 100x more annoyed with him not developing a functional jumper in 4 years than I am with his rebounding stats. Guy is probably a pro if he can hit a corner 3 at a decent clip.
I’ve been avoiding joining the KJ conversation. It’s kinda like Harris discussions. He is what he is, and has been.
Self loves KJ basically because he can switch on defense. That’s really it. A pro? Hmmm.
Yea the NBA hates guys who can guard 5 positions and knows their role.
Well, i’m no NBA scout. But he really doesn’t have any other basketball skills worthy of a pro. You posted above that IF he had a corner jumper he PROBABLY is a pro.
But he doesn’t have a corner jump or any jumper really.
Are you changing your argument?
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@rockchalkjayhawk said in KJ Rebounding:
@Kcmatt7 said in KJ Rebounding:
@rockchalkjayhawk said in KJ Rebounding:
@Kcmatt7 said in KJ Rebounding:
Like I’m 100x more annoyed with him not developing a functional jumper in 4 years than I am with his rebounding stats. Guy is probably a pro if he can hit a corner 3 at a decent clip.
I’ve been avoiding joining the KJ conversation. It’s kinda like Harris discussions. He is what he is, and has been.
Self loves KJ basically because he can switch on defense. That’s really it. A pro? Hmmm.
Yea the NBA hates guys who can guard 5 positions and knows their role.
Well, i’m no NBA scout. But he really doesn’t have any other basketball skills worthy of a pro. You posted above that IF he had a corner jumper he PROBABLY is a pro.
But he doesn’t have a corner jump or any jumper really.
Are you changing your argument?
I think my argument is that KJ is athletic enough, handles the ball well enough, passes the ball well enough, and definitely guards well enough, that if he could shoot a jumper he would be an NBA caliber player.
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Yeah if KJ could shoot 35% from 3 he’d be a highly sought after prospect. Not sure that’s even debatable. But alas, best we can do is a shot put.
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I think we all love KJ… and we feel the pain of seeing such a physical specimen and great athlete… not quite reaching a high enough platform to take it to the league next year. He’s such a great person and while here has become a man. I know he’s one of Self’s favorites, too.
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Absolutely agree, we all love KJ. He’s made improvements in a lot of areas in his career and became a critical starter for Bill the last 3 years. We know what he’s going to give us. Seeing him smile and the way he responds to questions after the game on Saturday, hard not to root for him. His Sr day with Juan is going to be a tearful one.
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It’s understandable if you can’t develop a shot, but anyone can rebound. KJ doesn’t crash the boards. If there is an improbable rebound - like when a guard runs into the paint and snags the board - that will never be KJ. He does other things very well, but costs the team on the boards. Nice kid, dunks the crap out of the ball, very athletic, doesn’t have a nose for boards.
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I think there’s something to the fact that KJ is an exceptional two feet leaper which is why you see just about all his dunks where he’s had time to gather and power up. Perhaps that same concept applies to when he’s rebounding and loses some of that athletic advantage since boarding is not just how high you can jump but other things like instinct and want to. I seem to remember as a freshman KJ crashed the boards hard on offense and was a part of some key tip outs/boards at critical times. Those hustle plays and playing defense were a big part of why he saw the floor at end of game situations etc.
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@BeddieKU23 I am of the contention that anyone can rebound. I firmly believe this because it was the only thing I was good at. lol. It doesn’t require much skill, just a basic understanding of angles - where the ball will end up after a shot leaves the hand is easy for me to project, perhaps it isn’t for others. The rest is just hustle - get to the spot the ball is headed and seal your man off. Maybe I’m taking for granted that some people can’t see the angles, it just seemed so natural to me - the only thing on the court that did.
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I relate exactly to your last post. I could see the ball right after it left the hand where it was going about 80% of the time… so I would hustle to get the right positioning.
Some of positioning you can be taught without seeing the ball. Like if a ball is shot from the corner… most rebounds will go towards the other corner (opposite direction from shooter). If someone is shooting from out front, most boards stay in front of the goal. Pretty basic stuff.
Sometimes I knew someone was going to shoot and before it left his hand I was already headed to a spot where it was a good chance the board was going there.
College basketball has become a pretty darn wimpy sport. I can’t think of the last time I really saw a guy battle for position, or seal off his spot well.
BASKETBALL TIP-OF-THE-DAY: If you are a college player and want more minutes and attention… learn how to rebound. No one else is doing it. You may not make the league some day, but I guarantee if you are snagging 10+ boards a game you will get your playing time!
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@drgnslayr I only got to play in high school because I could jump and defend. I led our team in rebounds my junior and senior year being shorter than not only half my teammates but most the guys I went against. KJ has a better shot of being drafted into the NFL than the NBA.
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I grew up playing center because I had early height. By the time I reached junior high the other boys had caught me. By high school I had guard size but with big man skills. I tried… really tried to become a distance shooter, but never panned out. So my later ball all was based on big man skills… mostly defending and rebounding. My last team before my days ended on an injury was on a team with a 7’1" center. I always had to play him in practice and for the most part I dominated him. Height is a great thing. If all other things are equal, added height is a huge help. Otherwise… executing your game is by far #1.
I’m taking bets right now on Zeke vs KJ on RPM (rebs per minute).
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@drgnslayr for sure being a small 2a school we didn’t have a ton of size. I was/am a shade over 6’1 and played forward a lot because at that size I was still taller than half the other players. We had one 6’5 guy that played center for us and he’s a good dude but one of the most uncoordinated guys I’ve ever met lol. I’d just shot fake and dunk on him in practice a couple of times a week. Probably my biggest game was we played Hutch Trinity every year and they had some good players. There 6’7 center ended going to Pitt state and playing for a few years before he had shoulder issues. I held him 7 points and shut him down the last we played them.
Its funny because I always joke with my son (9) that the only 3 things he can count on in life is death, Taxes and my jump shot. Admittedly I don’t have a great jumper but I was a really good FT shooter and all district defense. My goal was always to make whomever I was guarding cry because they couldn’t do anything. I was probably a lot like KJ to my team, but I could actually rebound lol. I shot 1/3 in my highschool career from 3 point land. The one I hit I got called for a Technical foul, kid guarding me was running his trap all game (while we were winning by 20 mind you). I hit the shot and told him that was the SBC long distance shot of the game.
