Reasons to believe in next year’s team
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@approxinfinity said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
Underclassman Sherron frustrated the hell out of me. If he hadn’t gotten that steal and 3 to put us in striking distance in the championship and then the fall down pass to Mario, I would have remembered a lot of the boneheaded things he did that season, including some head-scratching plays in the championship on a team full of pretty cool customers. My point being, Dajuan is not the first KU underclassman to make a few boneheaded plays in a championship he also did some very good things in.
In particular, underclassman Sherron’s drives to nowhere, getting caught in the air with no option, and either turning it over or getting packed to Kingdom Come drove me absolutely nuts. So let’s allow that there may be a bit of lip-service hypberbole in Self’s assessment of Sherron as “one of the toughest” or whatever he said. Yes, Sherron was good, had a borderline great career by KU standards (high standards). He checks all the boxes for someone Self would praise.
- Contributed his sophomore year to a championship run.
- Waited his turn to start
- Was from the Chicago area (want to recruit that!)
- Was a 5 star McD (want to recruit that!)
- Played 4 years for Self, probably should have left after his 3rd
- First team All American
- Wasn’t drafted because of size
And importantly, his senior year, with 7 guys who made an NBA roster on his team, a team you would expect senior Sherron to lead, he lost to Northern Iowa.
So don’t laugh when we suggest that lil Sophomore NCAA CHAMPION Dajuan Harris might end up having a better college career than Sherron.
He just might.
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https://m.kusports.com/news/2022/may/31/kansas-guard-joe-yesufu-eyeing-greater-leadership-/
JOE. Needs to take a big leap this offseason.
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Spot on! There is no real comparison between these two players because everything about them is different. Sherron was a volume-scoring 2 forced into being a PG. Juan is a natural PG and is better-rounded to fill the stat sheet like what you want from a PG.
This idea that we have to get points from our PG is a vision of desperation. Any team that has to count on points from a PG means they have shortcomings on offense, whether it be team total points are too low or not having a go-to guy for points.
Here is where I’m glad we have a HOFr head coach. He will scheme offense to best take advantage of the offensive skills we have on the floor. He can help but only do so much. Players have to step up.
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I’d take Sherron 10x out of 10 over DeJuan. Juando is a nice complimentary player, much like Russel Robinson. Sherron could be featured in the offense. In 09 it was just cole and Sherron carrying the team. Juan isn’t that type of player and we should not expect that out of him. Juando is a defensive player that is good at involving his teammates. Sherron was good a driving and scoring the ball, not distributing. Totally different players.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
https://m.kusports.com/news/2022/may/31/kansas-guard-joe-yesufu-eyeing-greater-leadership-/
JOE. Needs to take a big leap this offseason.
Agree. Next year will need scorers. As I believe @justanotherfan has pointed out before you are either wired to be a scorer or you aren’t. Joe is wired that way. He will take shots and not care how many he has missed. We will need that. Especially if Jalen leaves.
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@dylans Well, damn, that guy who wasn’t good at distributing the ball somehow is number 10 on KU all-time assist leaders…
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@approxinfinity said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
Underclassman Sherron frustrated the hell out of me. If he hadn’t gotten that steal and 3 to put us in striking distance in the championship and then the fall down pass to Mario, I would have remembered a lot of the boneheaded things he did that season, including some head-scratching plays in the championship on a team full of pretty cool customers. My point being, Dajuan is not the first KU underclassman to make a few boneheaded plays in a championship he also did some very good things in.
In particular, underclassman Sherron’s drives to nowhere, getting caught in the air with no option, and either turning it over or getting packed to Kingdom Come drove me absolutely nuts. So let’s allow that there may be a bit of lip-service hypberbole in Self’s assessment of Sherron as “one of the toughest” or whatever he said. Yes, Sherron was good, had a borderline great career by KU standards (high standards). He checks all the boxes for someone Self would praise.
- Contributed his sophomore year to a championship run.
- Waited his turn to start
- Was from the Chicago area (want to recruit that!)
- Was a 5 star McD (want to recruit that!)
- Played 4 years for Self, probably should have left after his 3rd
- First team All American
- Wasn’t drafted because of size
And importantly, his senior year, with 7 guys who made an NBA roster on his team, a team you would expect senior Sherron to lead, he lost to Northern Iowa.
So don’t laugh when we suggest that lil Sophomore NCAA CHAMPION Dajuan Harris might end up having a better college career than Sherron.
He just might.
Whoa buddy, not sure what you’re mixing in that Kool-Aid you’re drinking. A two time all-american with a championship is “borderline great career”?? To me this is unquestionably great, one of the greatest we have ever had. Nobody else since Sherron has been a two time all-american for KU. The only other two in modern times is Jacque (two second team seasons) and Raef (had two first team seasons).
What would Juan have to do in his next two years for you to classify him as having a better college career than Sherron?
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@RockkChalkk Some people weigh in post season accolades more heavily. Maybe that’s the factor for Sherron. He flamed out of the tournament twice when it was “his team”.
I think he’s a career great too, just guessing why others may feel that way.
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@BShark you put it succinctly, exactly my thoughts. Win on the big stage. You may say thats not fair. It might also be not fair to undervalue skills less tangible than scoring.
But win on the big stage and youre a winner, however your methods.
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Basketball is largely about having guys that fit into different roles. Sometimes, players can move between different roles, depending on their mindset and skillset, but each team has specific roles that guys will play.
For example, Thomas Robinson started his career as an energy rebounding guy off the bench. He finished it as an All-American post scorer (albeit inefficiently). He was a better fit as a rebound/energy guy than as a prrimary scorer, but he was good enough as a scorer (and was always a great rebounder) to move into that primary role.
Travis Releford came to KU as a big time scorer. He morphed into a defense first player through his career.
Some guys never find their role in college. I think Julian Wright is a good example of this. He thought he was a point forward. He should have been developed as a stretch 4. That mismatch in his approach hampered both his college and pro career.
Every good team needs the following roles filled:
- primary ball handler
- secondary ball handler
- primary scorer
- secondary scorer
- perimeter shooter/floor spacer
- primary perimeter defender
- post defender/rim protector
- rebounder
- bench scorer
- bench ball handler
- bench defender
- bench big
Let’s take this year’s KU team and fill in the blanks.
Ochai Agbaji was the primary scorer. David McCormack was the secondary scorer and post defender. Christian Braun was both the secondary ball handler and the perimeter defender. JCL was the shooter/floor spacer. Harris was the primary ball handler. Wilson was the rebounder, and could double as an additional ball handler. Lightfoot was the bench big. Remy was the bench scorer/ ball handler. Yes was the bench defender, although because the rotation was perimeter heavy, and Agbaji/Braun/Harris were all average or above defenders, his role wasn’t as prominent.
Everyone slotted into their roles nicely. Braun actually shifted from being the floor spacer in years past to more ball handling duties this season. Och obviously moved from being a secondary piece to being the primary guy this year. Wilson moved out of the secondary scoring role into a complimentary role offensively, which helped since he was not as efficient from the perimeter. Mitch kept his role as bench big. McCormack moved from a primary offensive weapon to a secondary one, which helped everyone. Yes sacrificed minutes because it was more important to have a shooter (JCL) than an additional defender given that Harris’ strength was defense rather than shooting and Harris was the primary ball handler. Had Martin been the primary ball handler, Yes plays more because you need more defense to compliment Martin rather than shooting to compliment Harris.
Next year’s team will have new roles, but the biggest thing is who the primary and secondary scorers are. Once that is clear, the other roles will fit themselves around that and will help compliment that.
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@drgnslayr a pg who can distribute and score is not desperation. All 5 guys need to be scoring threats the pg specifically.
The pg can easily lead the team in scoring see kemba walker getting a title and heck Steph in the nba.
A scoring pg isn’t a desperation. Pg’s aren’t old school where they score minimally and must distribute anymore.
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Without Sheron’s play we don’t win the title. Sherron was a stud. Blame the entire team or other players for the flame outs.
Juan helped defensively get the comeback going then was on the bench as Remy, Dave and Wilson made plays mid to late second half.
Och getting mop was so wrong. He was outplayed by Soph Puff once Puff entered the game. Ochai had the and one layup after puff’s dunk then missed the free throw. Puff hit a 3 and I think och had another layup.
From och checking in at 8:49 left in the game he didn’t score another bucket and from what I’ve looked up didn’t even attempt another shot.
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@kuballin10 I am pro Sherron. Was just offering up what I figured the only detriment could be in the mind of detractors and as @approxinfinity stated, what I thought was correct for him.
Dave should have won MOP. Don’t think it’s really debatable.
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It is debatable. I should have won MOP for the animals I sacrificed to ensure KU victories.
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I sprinkled holy water on the Dean Dome
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Per thread title https://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/bobby-pettiford/ASqWeb_fEeeT-Oz0u-e-FA/basketball/stats.htm
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So with Wilson’s announcement, the most likely starting line up for next season should be Harris, McCullar, Dick, Wilson, and Clemence I’m guessing.
Next season should be interesting to see how Self handles the line up because other than Udeh, there’s not a true post that figures to be part of the rotation unless Cam Martin suddenly got good enough to play at this level. Even then, Cam’s outside shooting was a big reason why he was brought in so we could potentially see a lot of 5 out next season which is something I never thought I’d see out of a Bill Self coached team.
I’m guessing the core bench pieces will be Rice, Pettiford, Adams, Udeh, and Yesufu with Ejiofor, Martin, and Cuffe getting spot minutes unless Ejiofor jumps ahead of KJ in the rotation. I’m not knocking Ejiofor, but he’s probably looking at being the 5th big in the rotation which historically means very few minutes.
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WELCOME BACK, JW!
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Boom
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I think I can help with this DeJuan confusion. He’s not like Sherron. I was so glad when Sherron graduated. Love the guy- he’s true blue Jayhawk. But Approx and I both know speaking ill of Sherron is a major offense in Jayhawk Land. We know it triggers you, yet somehow we do slip up and blurt out a “lousy senior year” or something offensive to St. Sherron from time to time, so we offer our humble apologies. We still love THAT shot.
The comparison is Russ Rob. “The Lurker” ( a.k.a. JayhawkFantoo) pointed out that DeJuan and Russ are literally splitting images in everything, from the defense to the offensive game, and I agree with that. My opinion is DeJuan improves offensively enough to get to 10 per, and that is plenty, folks.
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These returns obviously reveal the players’ desire for a KU B2B.
I wonder if they might have been clued in to what our IARP sanction will be, and maybe are assured we won’t be banned from post-season 2023?
I just doubt they would invest another year in what could be a dead-end effort…
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These two announcements on a day I received my championship tshirt, and book, and last day of school made for a very very very happy birthday!!! I’ve got one minute left.
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We just won a natty without a scoring PG.
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I’d rather see Juan add to his assist stat this coming year than his point stat.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
So with Wilson’s announcement, the most likely starting line up for next season should be Harris, McCullar, Dick, Wilson, and Clemence I’m guessing.
Next season should be interesting to see how Self handles the line up because other than Udeh, there’s not a true post that figures to be part of the rotation unless Cam Martin suddenly got good enough to play at this level. Even then, Cam’s outside shooting was a big reason why he was brought in so we could potentially see a lot of 5 out next season which is something I never thought I’d see out of a Bill Self coached team.
I’m guessing the core bench pieces will be Rice, Pettiford, Adams, Udeh, and Yesufu with Ejiofor, Martin, and Cuffe getting spot minutes unless Ejiofor jumps ahead of KJ in the rotation. I’m not knocking Ejiofor, but he’s probably looking at being the 5th big in the rotation which historically means very few minutes.
That is definitely a possibility. I’m thinking we might see Pettiford, Harris, McCullar, Wilson, and Clemence as starters. Rice, Yes, & Dick rotating in the 1-3 spots and Udeh/Adams rotating at the 4/5. Bigger rotation early in the season and a few will drop out as conference play picks up. There’s some big shoes to fill and lots of opportunity for whoever is ready to step up and take it.
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Perhaps this team will grow on me as the summer goes along. I was expecting a few more chess moves from Self to bridge the gap on guys he’s lost. There’s no way around the fact this team was gutted after a Championship which usually happens.
Comparing it to past teams I’m a bit concerned about experience & where the scoring will come from. 9 of 13 guys have little to zero experience playing in games. Among those 9, as many as 6 could be regular parts of the rotation so lots of growing pains. The 3 returning Soph’s all have promise and we could even see 1 or 2 of them start. The freshman class is stellar, we got real dudes this year so talent is not a question.
It’s going to be interesting to hear who’s developing. Development is beyond vital this offseason. Will a freshman push to start in the backcourt or will Self lean on experience or another ballhandler next to Harris. That 2 spot will be a battle. Will Wilson shine being the man? I think he will. He’s waited his turn and watched his brothers take the leaps. This is his time and he’ll get every opportunity to showcase. In spite of my concerns the ceiling on this team seems high. Odds are at least one of the freshman & one of the Sophomore’s will have a breakout season. I think the keys to a successful season lie on what the young guys can give on a consistent basis. Interesting offseason. Glad its over
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I’m not 100% sure we are done. Might Self carve a space for Mosley?
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@wissox said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
These two announcements on a day I received my championship tshirt, and book, and last day of school made for a very very very happy birthday!!! I’ve got one minute left.
- Truly a day to remember!
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The question with Wilson (and with several others) is whether he is ready to take on a bigger role.
For Wilson, that boils down to efficiency. Can he average 14 ppg while shooting at or above 45% from the field? If so, that’s a win for KU. If he averages that, but on a lower percentage, that makes it really hard to build a top notch offense around him because it will be very inefficient. Part of Wilson’s increased efficiency last year was on the offensive glass and as a second or thid option on kickouts. If he’s the primary scorer, those opportunities go away for him (and go to Adams or Udeh, or someone else). If he can be efficient even outside that, KU has another top notch offense. If he can’t be (and this is the big question), then KU can have a good offense, but it will be inefficient.
The other question is secondary scorer. Is that McCullar? Is that Dick (or is he the shooter/floor spacer). McCullar doesn’t have a history of being very efficient either, so having Wilson and McCullar as the first two options offensively is concerning from an efficiency standpoint. I will note that I think both are very good collegiate players and that I think both will play well next season. I just don’t know where the efficiency comes from. Harris won’t help bump up the efficiency. Dick, Rice, and Clemence are all unproven at the college level for that type of scoring. We could have a good team next year, but they may have to play some ugly ball to get there while they figure out how to be efficient.
This KU squad is a top 5 squad. They need to get into transition though, because the half court offense will be a work in progress for most of the season.
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@drgnslayr technically we did in 2008 as well but Sherron and Remy played in those final 8-10 minutes not Juan and Russ.
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@drgnslayr said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
I’m not 100% sure we are done. Might Self carve a space for Mosley?
I think Mosley wanted to be here but there’s parts of his game that don’t particularly fit with Self. He’s not a great athlete or defender but his offensive game certainly looked very appealing. Personally I thought he was worth bringing in (Harris/CB connection + the instant offense) because of how much offense this team has lost. Ochai, Dave, CB, Remy. We have 1 guy returning who can replace 1 of those guys but not 4. There will be a drop off in offensive firepower from last season to this upcoming one. How much will be one of the key’s to the season
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@drgnslayr said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
I’m not 100% sure we are done. Might Self carve a space for Mosley?
KU hasn’t been recruiting Mosley for weeks now. Self did not believe he was capable of playing defense at the level we require.
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@BeddieKU23 you are correct about Mosley. He was supposed to commit to MSU twice now and backed out. Texas Tech is still involved but strongly prefers Kerwin Walton. KSU is lurking, hoping.
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I’m not really familiar with Mosley but liked his point totals and connection to Juan.
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@drgnslayr said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
I’m not really familiar with Mosley but liked his point totals and connection to Juan.
Subpar athlete basically. If he was even as athletic as Jalen/McCullar with his skill set he would have been at a P5 school and already in the league imo. Incredibly skilled and will be a nightmare for us if he ends up elsewhere in the league IMO.
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@kuballin10 said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
@drgnslayr technically we did in 2008 as well but Sherron and Remy played in those final 8-10 minutes not Juan and Russ.
I’m a HUGE Russ and Juan fan but this unfortunately for my opinion, very true. I think Bobby or Yes are the Sherron Remy role this year. I dynamic change of pace guard that when they sub in can make a significant impact and change the way a game is going. Juan is steady and won’t get us into trouble but may need a little backup with the firepower to blow an opponent out of the water. I like having both as opposed to comparing which is better/more important.
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@drgnslayr said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
We just won a natty without a scoring PG.
He sparked a heck of a comeback. Many people are saying it was the biggest in title game history
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@justanotherfan said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
This KU squad is a top 5 squad. They need to get into transition though, because the half court offense will be a work in progress for most of the season.
Hopefully this defense will be capable of forcing the turnovers and rebound well enough to get this team running. Can you imagine Juan, Yes, and McCullar as the perimeter D? Could definitely apply some pressure to the ball handlers.
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@BeddieKU23 , IMO player’s talents at a low to mid-major don’t often translate well to P5, especially at the elite P5 levels. Cam Martin (we’ll wait and see) seems to be an example of that. I don’t remember a plethora of them succeeding. Coach apparently feels that way about Mosley.
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I agree its difficult to jump up in competition and be as good especially at KU. It does happen every year across the nation but I think its difficult to predict which players will blossom. Mosley made a lot of sense due to his connections to the program & his offensive skill level. I could argue Self has taken two transfers in recent past (Moss/Coleman-Lands) that were similar to Mosley athletically/defensively. I do think Self prefers to get transfers from major conferences though so I do think that is a big factor in his decision making process with transfers. Take a look at the recent transfers & Yesufu/Cam Martin are the only 2 guys that have transferred in from lower levels.
2021-22- Coleman Lands- (Illinois/Depaul/Iowa St), Remy Martin (Arizona St). Yesufu (Drake) & Martin (D2) .
2019-20- Moss (Iowa)
2018-19- Dedric, KJ Lawson (Memphis), Charlie Moore (Cal)
2017-18- Cunliffe (Arizona St), Newman (Mississippi St).
2016-17- Dwight Coleby (Ole Miss).
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I beleive in next years team. I also have reason for concern about next years team at least probably for non con. The Reason ? - I have yet to see anyone convince me about scoring droughts ? - -Scorers , PROVEN SCORER’S
This team is going to b really inexperienced for awhile , I just think we are going to take some lumps. - -Were gonna look ugly , really ugly at times early. I mean who is going to take over score the ball for us ? you can’t try and defend by saying Dick or Rice - -any of the Freshmen to be that scorer. Big difference between High School and P-5. Alot of those moves you got away with in High School - -some of those shots - -they aren’t gonna work in College, as you got players just as good to defend those moves - -those shots.
I think sure Jalen - ya Jalen will score but even him how is he gonna be on a consistent basis ? - he isn’t gonna be no mean star monster scorer. Jalen has shown from the past he might score 15-16 one game and then might be 10 the next time. Is Jalen a guy that’s a Alpha? - is he gonna step up and take that key shot late in a crucial game ? - I don’t think at this point that Jalen is that type of player. - Jalen is a good player but Is Jalen a take charge player ? Jalen is a very good complimentory player. Do we even have that type of player on this team ? - -Lot of questions to be answered. Other then Jalen , who can we look to for that production ? I just don’t think we can count on the freshmen for that. In most cases unless they are a proven one an done like top 5-10 range they gonna hit that wall sometime.
Were gonna be good defensively - -I think we got a chance to be REAL GOOD defensively. I just think Offensively - -were gonna look like we going through mud some times bog down. I hope I’m wrong but I just think that Scoring is going to be a big issue for some time hope I’m wrong. Would be great to come out and be hitting on all cylinders from the gt go. - -I do not think this is a top five team at the beginning , more like possibly a 8 or 9 - just so many qustion marks
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@Jethro said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
We had to have great shooting last year because our rebounding sucked. If we missed, there’s a good chance we weren’t getting the ball back.
I think you may have just been overreacing to times we didn’t do great.
Here are the full season stats. First line is KU, and 2d line is our rank nationally.
3rd line is our opponents, and then their rank.
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@Jethro And same stats for conference play:
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@mayjay I think you’re correct. Let me fix it for you. I should’ve done my homework.
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@Jethro I think it has more to do with our emotional hopes that get dashed whenever KU does something wrong, for example, if we miss an easy rebound. It gets magnified in our reaction, and those mistakes tend to be what we remember.
Happens to everybody! Just think of how baseball fans revile Bill Buckner–one misplay created a mythos of him as hands of stone despite him having committed only 146 errors in 16,661 chances over 21 years, and even setting several fielding records. But that play is seen as the one that lost the World Series for Boston.
Except it didn’t. They lost the Series the next night. Emotion affects memory!
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@mayjay said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
@Jethro I think it has more to do with our emotional hopes that get dashed whenever KU does something wrong, for example, if we miss an easy rebound. It gets magnified in our reaction, and those mistakes tend to be what we remember.
Happens to everybody! Just think of how baseball fans revile Bill Buckner–one misplay created a mythos of him as hands of stone despite him having committed only 146 errors in 16,661 chances over 21 years, and even setting several fielding records. But that play is seen as the one that lost the World Series for Boston.
Except it didn’t. They lost the Series the next night. Emotion affects memory!
I think I fell for a combination of us getting beat on the boards against UNC and the Big Dave caterwauling to think we weren’t good on the boards. You should’ve seen my face when I pulled up NCAA stats…lol. Any who, the original point was to say all is not lost if we aren’t as good from 3 point land as we were last year… when we won the national championship. I really think we have a deep, solid team that might not be as good as last year, but still will be a damn good team.
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@Jethro You certainly made a good point about good shooting being necessary since we may not be able to rely on a banger underneath. Z will likely get the agility and finesse boards, but I think he is a couple years away from being bulky enough to get a putback basket like Dave’s against UNC!
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Gosh… the news this past week… Wilson and McCullar here… We should be competitive on the boards this year! Now… if we get good boards from the 5? Could be huge!
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@drgnslayr said in Reasons to believe in next year’s team:
Gosh… the news this past week… Wilson and McCullar here… We should be competitive on the boards this year! Now… if we get good boards from the 5? Could be huge!
If Udeh is what they say about his aggression on the Boards - -we gonna be fine. -Him & Wilson and others. One thing I will say My God Udeh is big -I mean Big hope he can develop some offensive progress to go with the rest of his game. - Actually I’ve her Zuby is as good maybe better offensively at this point although neither have super offensive games at this pint BUT still glad we have this pair to go with Zach on our team
