WSU grudge
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Wichita State vs. Bill Self
Bill Self has stated that playing Wichita State won’t benefit his Kansas team, much to the chagrin of Shockers fans. Jay Biggerstaff/USA TODAY Sports By population, Kansas (2.9 million) isn’t much bigger than Chicago (2.7 million). But the Midwestern state has played a critical role in college basketball. Three of its top schools – Kansas State, Kansas and Wichita State – have combined to reach the Elite Eight seven times since 2010.
Wichita State’s run to the Final Four in 2013 – and its overall rise under Gregg Marshall – sparked a clamoring for an annual matchup with Kansas, one of college basketball’s powerhouses. The Shockers haven’t played the Jayhawks in the regular season since a 1993 matchup at Allen Fieldhouse, which sits about 160 miles from Wichita State’s campus.
But Wichita State beat Kansas in the second round of the NCAA tournament in 2015.
“This isn’t knocking Wichita State,” Self told The Kansas City Star in 2013. “But if it was best for our program, I would reach out to them about scheduling them. But it’s not.”
Self has praised Wichita State in recent years, but he has also maintained that an annual series with Wichita State wouldn’t help his program. That hasn’t stopped Wichita State fans from accusing Self of dodging the Shockers.
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@dylans " That hasn’t stopped Wichita State fans from accusing Self of dodging the Shockers."
Wichita State is a wanna be who actually is a decent team - once every 30 years. They have a ways to go. I enjoyed watching a so-so Houston team DESTROY them by…what was it - 33 the other day? Lol
I laugh my butt off every time someone mentions Marsha coaching at a real school. He’s a terrible coach - but he is smart enough to know that he’s a big fish in a little pond. If he ever goes anywhere, it will be to an even smaller, more nondescript school.
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I don’t see the benefit of playing WSU in the regular season.
I would like to see a Sprint Center battle one year with KSU, KU, WSU and MU as our tournament. That’d be a ton of fun at PnL. Just two exhibitions in two day. KU plays MU and then WSU the next day. KSU plays WSU and then MU.
But that’d never happen.
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This is made even better by the fact that we started playing Missouri again.
Wichita is back to being an irrelevant mid major. They are JAGs in the American. Should have stayed in the MVC and inflated their record.
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Mizzou is
too!
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Yeah but they are at least a P5 team and the game will sell out in KC.
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Our games don’t sell out there. U think Mizzou fans that don’t go to their own games will show?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yes. It’s KU. They HATE us.
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@BShark but they suck!
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@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:
I don’t see the benefit of playing WSU in the regular season.
I would like to see a Sprint Center battle one year with KSU, KU, WSU and MU as our tournament. That’d be a ton of fun at PnL. Just two exhibitions in two day. KU plays MU and then WSU the next day. KSU plays WSU and then MU.
But that’d never happen.
that would be a great idea. How about playing that on an annual basis just like the tournament of Champions and just keep rotating the opposition every year? - -Wichita/Ku one year & K-state/Missouri - -then next year KU/Missouri and KState? Wichita St? - -see what I mean?
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in WSU grudge:
Our games don’t sell out there. U think Mizzou fans that don’t go to their own games will show?
they would show for sure - -it’s KU did you forget how much these two schools and fans hate one another? - - -I haven’t
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I don’t wanna help them out.
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There is no rational argument to suggest that this would not benefit KU. None. It’s complete disinformation by Bill Self. He’s famous for that. I mean, why would we play MU? Remember all of his disinformation? Well, now, all of a sudden, it IS in our best interests.
We just played UMKC at the Sprint Center. New Mexico St? Nebraska? Davidson? I also understand we need to play some easy games too, so I’ll leave off all the non-descript puds we play. But to suggest this game doesn’t benefit KU is absolute baloney. I’ve heard that we schedule non-con to help with recruiting. Sure. Look, playing UMKC, UNM, or Neb. doesn’t help recruiting. It doesn’t. Davison from NC, maybe a little – maybe. But traveling to destinations so they can see us is what really helps. But whatever. That is a tired, ragged, useless card to play.
Self got his tail kicked in embarrassing fashion by WSU in 2015. A complete an utter embarrassment. And that’s the last taste left in our mouths. WSU kicking our tails. Dominating us.
As a KU fan, I want to play WSU. I want to correct that wrong. I want to kick their a**. Just like with MU. But Self makes it appear we are chicken. Clucking chickens. When he’s the chicken.
It would highly energize our fan base. That alone is a benefit. But maybe Self is scared of losing. That such a loss would create negativity. That’s the “chicken” theory.
For those that want to defame the WSU program, tell me this – Name a Big 12 program, say, since we won the NC in '08, that has been consistently better than WSU? There may be some debate. But the debate pretty much exposes Self’s lie/disinformation.
Look, I know there are some that knee-jerk and buy whatever Self sells, or simply feel it best to mock other programs or their coach. That’s all fine. But … shhhhhh … WSU has as many Final Fours over the last 7 seasons.
Clucking chickens, walking down the road, flapping their wings. At least it appears that way.
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Pretty sure Marsha doesn’t want to play us.
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As a fan, sure I want to watch it.
But Bill is actually stingy with his away games. He isn’t going to give one of them to WSU. And he isn’t going to give a helping hand in recruiting to WSU.
The thing is, WSU would have this as their #1 game to bring recruits to all season long. KU would not be bringing recruits to this game.
KU vs MU, I guarantee KU will have recruits behind the bench for that game because the atmosphere is going to be insane. There is an actual trade off.
KU as a program benefits absolutely none by giving WSU a game in Wichita.
And the truth is that WSU doesn’t want to schedule KU either or it’d be done already. They want a home game, and know that it is never going to happen. So they keep dragging this same conversation up every season.
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The first thing that pops into my head is recruiting in regards to not playing them
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I am for playing Wichita State if we don’t give them a single game in Wichita. They don’t deserve that. That would be like giving Davidson or New Mexico State that HEM brought up a home game. Villanova and Stanford get road games, not puds like Wichita. San Diego State in 2015 was the last time we played a non P5 school in a true road game.
@Kcmatt7 is correct, if Wichita wanted this done we would be playing them in Lawrence and KC.
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Marsha has never tried to schedule us.
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@BeddieKU23 Yea I don’t know why we’d let them have a recruiting spectacle at our expense. It makes no sense, especially when you consider the talent that we actually do compete for in Wichita.
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So we, KU … you know, history, blue blood, top program … worries about recruiting competition from WSU?
Like we worry about playing MU and recruiting competition in KC or St. Louis, or the state of Missouri? Much more fertile recruiting territory?
See how that argument is irrelevant given Self’s contradictory actions with MU?
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To me it’s all about risk reward. Like it or not, playing WSU is a risk. That is just where the two programs are right now. They are good enough to beat us but not good enough for a win over them to really mean anything for our resume. Do we play other teams of a similar ilk, yes but usually at home. And yes recruiting is a factor though I would argue not a major one. Self wants first pick of any Kansas talent without having to spend to much time or resources wooing them. A loss to WSU could alter that dynamic. Comparing it to MU is nonsensical. KU v MU is one of the oldest rivalries in ALL of college sports. This rekindling of that rivalry has massive promotional advantages and could bring eyeballs nationwide. KU v WSU is just not that.
I personally would like to play WSU because I think we smash them almost every year and it could shut up some folks from the home town. But that doesn’t mean the argument for not playing them is irrelevant.
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@HighEliteMajor So - I gather you’re not the president of the Bill Self Fan Club?
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WSU declined a home and home with KSUCK last season. WSU won’t play anyone now that Baker and Co are gone. I wish we’d schedule them, no one beats us consistently
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Mid-majors get a nice check to come play KU at Allen or Sprint. WSU has never expressed any interest in a buy game, and a home and home makes zero sense for KU. Why give up the revenue from that home game? The programs have nothing in common except sharing a state. If they’d take a discount to play a buy game at AFH since travel is cheap then I’d consider it but again, the administration over there hasn’t shown any interest in that since they cut off the series in the 90’s. Takes two to tango and currently there’s nobody on the dance floor.
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@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
@HighEliteMajor So - I gather you’re not the president of the Bill Self Fan Club?
LMAO, DAM now what would EVER give you that Idea ROFLMAO
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@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:
Mid-majors get a nice check to come play KU at Allen or Sprint. WSU has never expressed any interest in a buy game, and a home and home makes zero sense for KU. Why give up the revenue from that home game? The programs have nothing in common except sharing a state. If they’d take a discount to play a buy game at AFH since travel is cheap then I’d consider it but again, the administration over there hasn’t shown any interest in that since they cut off the series in the 90’s. Takes two to tango and currently there’s nobody on the dance floor.
I remember playing them in football , always enjoyed going t watch those games - -but I’m like everyone else - - no way am I giving Marsha and his Bottle of Boone’s Farm Strawberry Hill and fricken game lmao. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Kcmatt7 Indiana does the yearly Indiana/Butler/Notre Dame/Purdue thing, though not a tournament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads_Classic
Indiana and Purdue never play against each other because they play in the conference. This would be great with KU/MU/WSU/KSU and similarly, KU and KSU wouldn’t play against each other in it due to conference.
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@BigBad said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 Indiana does the yearly Indiana/Butler/Notre Dame/Purdue thing, though not a tournament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossroads_Classic
Indiana and Purdue never play against each other because they play in the conference. This would be great with KU/MU/WSU/KSU and similarly, KU and KSU wouldn’t play against each other in it due to conference.
I think this would be very enjoyable.
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The thing with the Crossroads Series is that all 4 programs are consistently top caliber programs and located within the same state and are all rivals. This KU/KSU/MU/WSU thing wouldn’ake much sense because MU isn’t rivals with KSU or WSU. If Kansas had a 4th D1 program, you could do something like that at Intrust every year, but it doesn’t make sense because not everyone is a rival.
The KU/WSU match up isn’t a rivalry match up because most KU don’t care about WSU. The hatred only flows one way that discussion. There wouldn’t be much extra juice in AFH when WSU came in when was the last time KU played a non power conference school in a true road game that wasn’t played for recruiting purposes? Was it Nevada about 15 years ago? I know we’ve played Temple in Philadelphia a couple of times, but those games were made for recruiting purposes.
KU/MU makes so much more sense because it is a true rivalry in that both sides hate each other. Sprint Center will be sold out both games, AFH will be at it’s best the two time MU comes to Lawrence, and MU will have a packed house full of energy the two times KU makes the trip over there.
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Leave K-State out of it. We play them 2-3 times a year already.
KU, WSU, MU and either “host” UMKC or bring Iowa down to represent the B1G. Iowegians love to go to a big city like KC.
That’d be a fun two day tournament.
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This post is deleted!
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@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
@HighEliteMajor So - I gather you’re not the president of the Bill Self Fan Club?
Nope, not one bit. That ship sailed in October/2018 when he blatantly lied in a public statement. Bill Self is dishonest. He’s dragged our program into this NCAA mess. His program. The buck stops with him. Oddly, many just give him a free pass. Some give him a free pass because they say “everyone did it but we just got caught” or that we were unfairly targeted. Obviously, if that’s the defense (as silly as it is), it circles back to the dishonesty point. See the quote below.
“When recruiting prospective student athletes, my staff and I have not and do not offer improper inducements to them or their families to influence their college decisions nor are we aware of any third-party involvement to do so.”
While I think he’s the best coach our program has ever had, we have one national championship to show for it since he arrived in 2003. We’ve won one FF game since beating Memphis in 2008. Since winning that lone additional FF game in '12, we’ve been to one just one FF. Always with a top 5 roster. Until that changes, and with each passing year, I’m less enamored. Winning national championships is the only thing, on the court, that will change that for me at this point.
But on the honesty and integrity part, Self’s done as far as I’m concerned.
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I like seeing us play meaningful games where there is some kind of rivalry, any kind of rivalry.
Playing interstate “rivals” like Emporia State is a big joke and waste of time. Since when are we in charge of helping them out? What do we get out of those fluff games?
I like to see us play WSU because they give us a great taste of that “mid major” style game… something we have had problems with in March and embarrassed many times, sent packing.
I also like playing in the Champions Classic and anything where we play typical Top 5 teams, but this year, playing Duke in the first game of the year was plain stupid and meaningless.
Actually… we get a lot less out of playing Mizzou every year than if we played the Shocks because the Shocks tend to be ranked higher and they present us with the mid major style.
The argument that WSU isn’t good enough to play us is hogwash. Explain Emporia State.
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@HighEliteMajor Interesting. I’m not Bill Self’s cousin, next door neighbor or best friend. I’ve never met him - closest I’ve ever been is the couple of hundred feet from the bench while at a basketball game.
BUT - I’ve always considered him to be one of the more honest guys in coaching. About you and I - is there any chance that we both see & hear things in a different light? How do you know with such certainty that he (and his staff) know about the darker side of things? Maybe they just happen. Without his knowledge or consent. It’s a distinct possibility. I’ve been at my company 23 years. It’s a small company - about 30 employees. Stuff goes on around here ALL THE TIME that I don’t know about until after the fact. And while I’m not the Head Coach, I’ve been here longer than any other employee and am included in much of the decision making around here.
I look at guys like (yep, going to name names…) Pitino, G.Marshall, Calipari - and I immediately think " They’re pond scum ". I know that’s an excellent attitude for someone who professes to be a Christian, but I’m a Christian human and i sometimes get an attitude.
Could it be that there’s just something about Self’s persona that doesn’t vibe right with you? Maybe he’s not dishonest. Maybe you just don’t like the way he looks.
Anyway, there’s about a 100% chance that I’m not going to change your mind, It just struck me funny as I think completely the opposite way about him.
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@nuleafjhawk Understood. I think that has been a perception/belief of many. Maybe it’s in comparison to others – your “pond scum” reference. That’s not the bar I’m referring to. And my opinion can change on this perhaps with time. But when I read the quote I cited, there is just no reconciling that with reality. The public statement was a big one. A really big one, for the entire nation to hear.
For folks to defend his honesty, they would have to state that his public quote was truthful. I have not heard anyone suggest that his statement was truthful. I’m not going to slobber over, or admire, a public liar – one that does so as the head coach of my alma mater.
I was always a big defender of Bill Self’s integrity. I mentioned that when the FBI stuff came out that they were targeting the “pristine” coach and prosecutors love knocking guys like that down. Maybe I’m too emotional on this. But I feel as if I was deceived.
I truly did not believe that our program engaged in this stuff. I believed that Bill Self was above that. I believed that he did it the right way. I believed in Bill Self’s integrity. Then I learned the truth. I was admittedly naïve. Embarrassingly so. I mentioned that at the time. I then very much wanted Self to admit there were mistakes, be contrite, and actively work to change what was apparent. He took the opposite approach in his comments and issued a dishonest and deceptive public statement. And we got hit with a severe NOA. It’s his program.
So, if Bill Self didn’t know … just covered his eyes and ears and hummed the star spangled banner while all this was going on … TJ Gassnola texts and all … that he really didn’t know that Adidas was supplying cash … you know … when everyone else does … and he knows everyone else does it … doesn’t that define lack of institutional control? It would seem to appear.
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@HighEliteMajor If that’s the way you feel, I totally respect that. Honestly, I’m not as informed about this (and many other things) as I should be. I tend to favor re-runs of “The Beverly Hillbillies” and “You Bet Your Life” (big Groucho fan here) over the news. I understand completely having faith and trust in someone and being (or feeling) betrayed. Since I haven’t followed things too intently, my impression is that since he’s still got a high profile job that he must be OK (?). Don’t people lose their jobs for lying any more? I also publicly stated that if Self was indicted/convicted - whatever the legal term is of any wrong doing I would write him off completely. Has that happened? (I’m not being sarcastic, just asking).
I would tend to think that many impartial observers would study him and think that he’s a hard working, decent, blue collar kind of guy (that makes several million bucks per year - lol). But if you’re right and he is indeed a liar - i will be done with him as well.
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WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF.
Did someone put a friggen Bat Signal somewhere in this thread. Only way to explain all of this virtue signaling going on…
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@Kcmatt7 said in WSU grudge:
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOF.
Did someone put a friggen Bat Signal somewhere in this thread. Only way to explain all of this virtue signaling going on…
Lol, was just about to say something like that. If folks expect choir boys as elite head coaches I can only channel my southern, “bless your heart.”
To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.”
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@drgnslayr Maybe we could get WSU as an exhibition; they could take the place of Fort Hays or Emporia or Pitt State!!!
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@drgnslayr said in WSU grudge:
I like seeing us play meaningful games where there is some kind of rivalry, any kind of rivalry.
Playing interstate “rivals” like Emporia State is a big joke and waste of time. Since when are we in charge of helping them out? What do we get out of those fluff games?
I like to see us play WSU because they give us a great taste of that “mid major” style game… something we have had problems with in March and embarrassed many times, sent packing.
I also like playing in the Champions Classic and anything where we play typical Top 5 teams, but this year, playing Duke in the first game of the year was plain stupid and meaningless.
Actually… we get a lot less out of playing Mizzou every year than if we played the Shocks because the Shocks tend to be ranked higher and they present us with the mid major style.
The argument that WSU isn’t good enough to play us is hogwash. Explain Emporia State.
We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn’t take a buy game and there’s no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.
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@Kcmatt7 I know - it’s crazy in this day and age that ANYONE expects integrity and honesty from leadership. Or anyone else.
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@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.” I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don’t agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?
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@COHawk said in WSU grudge:
@FarmerJayhawk To a person, all highly successful college coaches are control freaks who would lie, cheat, or steal to win. Just go down the list: Saban, Dabo, K, Roy, Calipari, Self, Dean, Knight, etc. Like it or not, that’s the price of sustaining success. All have obviously flaunted the rules and say they run a program “the right way.” I think I would have to agree with you on this point. Years ago if a school was penalized, I would guess the infraction was blatant, or over the top. Definitely don’t agree with the idea that to keep up with everyone else, a coach needs to cheat, but how does this problem get stopped?
It’s been going since college sports was a thing, so it’s just the water we swim in. Phog was dirty, Rupp was dirty, Wooden was all-time dirty. Bear Bryant was dirty. Bobby Bowden was dirty.
So I guess either ignore it or quit caring? I’ve done the latter. I’ve accepted all the top programs (and most aspiring top programs) are dirty and that’s that. Doesn’t really affect my attitude toward KU basketball or college sports more generally. Still plop down every Saturday during football season and watch from noon to PAC-12 after dark.
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@nuleafjhawk said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 I know - it’s crazy in this day and age that ANYONE expects integrity and honesty from leadership. Or anyone else.
I think integrity and honestly is extremely important. Full disclosure: I really don’t know you that well on this board so my response was mostly to the other person in that conversation just because I know their political leaning…
And to explain further… I just think it’s hysterical that some expect more integrity and honesty from the Head Coach of KU Basketball than, say, the POTUS, Attorney General, Medal of Freedom recipients, Senators, Judges, National Security Advisors, Secretaries of State, or any of our institutions that are supposed to be running this country in general.
The gymnastics that some put themselves through to justify supporting something that is so clearly against their own “morals” is even more hysterical. Knowing someone is going to punch their ballot in November in favor of someone who literally lies more than twice a day, but somehow still feel they can sit on their high horse and criticize Bill Self for saying one lie to protect his own ass in his 16 years at KU. It’s a friggen parody! It is in the same ballpark of irony as Pope Innocent VIII having two bastard children. It is in the ballpark of irony as the first Chinese man who found gun powder and called it the “elixr of immortality.” It is an utter joke.
Honesty and integrity are far more admirable things when they aren’t accompanied by hypocrisy.
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@Kcmatt7 Fair enough. To be honest (since we’re on the subject…) I really enjoy finding out about people on this site. I mean, what makes us tick and not just “Rah Rah, we put the ball in the hoop a lot today”. We’re all different and it’s interesting to me to find out WHY we’re different.
I know that I lean towards innocence and naivete so it’s good to get a little dose of reality periodically.
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The idea that honesty and integrity are mocked by many is sickening.
But given the responses, I guess we’re not putting Self up on a pedestal then, which is a bit of a change. He lies and cheats like the rest of them.
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@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That’s what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he’d likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.
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@HighEliteMajor said in WSU grudge:
But given the responses, I guess we’re not putting Self up on a pedestal then, which is a bit of a change. He lies and cheats like the rest of them.
D1 ball is really about cheating and lying. Just look at recruiting. You are telling one kid how great it would be for him to come to your program while you continue to recruit players right over him.
As fans, the best we can hope for is a coach who can use his words well and limit the harshness of the reality. I’ve always said that a major plus with Self has been his ability to handle his words well.
It is what it is… my mentor in life, my old basketball coach I had going back to the 8th grade told me once that Jesus would make a horrible coach.
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@benshawks08 said in WSU grudge:
@Kcmatt7 @nuleafjhawk But what about the policies? That’s what really matters, right? Honestly, this is where @HighEliteMajor is consistent. He stated he’d likely get over the dishonesty or start to if Self were winning titles. Ends justify the means as long as you have the right ends, I guess.
Wonderful point.
Those currently virtue signaling literally just wrote that they wouldn’t care about the cheating as long as they got what they wanted. So it isn’t even about honesty and integrity. It really is just virtue signaling. Thank you for bringing this up.
The only person mocking honesty and integrity is the one saying they don’t care about either virtue, providing they get what they want in return.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in WSU grudge:
We get all the gate revenue + save the money forking out a big check to a mid-major to travel. Those two games are pretty profitable for KU. Plus those are just exhibitions. No reason to burn a non-con regular season game on WSU. They wouldn’t take a buy game and there’s no good reason to play a road game there when we could do a home and home with a much better team.
I focus more on the Xs and Os than counting beans. But I bet we give up a large amount of revenue currently lost on t-shrts and coffee mugs. And more than anything, it gives us another big game every year to put on a major sports television outlet. I know I tend to watch the UK/Louisville game every year regardless if one team is having a bad year. It seems like we are better off if we help programs in our geographic region. It gets pretty lonely being out in the middle of nowhere without other power teams nearby. I spent my morning helping a customer in North Carolina and she went on and on about all the great basketball in that state.
We are Kansas basketball… and I see us as ambassadors of the game. Seems kind of low that we intentionally don’t help an instate program build up. I know I just want to watch quality basketball and I hope WSU builds their program because it gives me one more place to see good ball. I wish KSU would improve, too. And if they beat us now and then it just adds more excitement to the following games.
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@drgnslayr They are welcome to come play us in Lawrence. But they won’t.
As Farmer put it, there has to be two to tango and nobody is on the dance floor.
