Has Bill Self Lost This Team?
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jayballer73 He shouldn’t be, but we’ll have to wait and see if he’s hellbent on it or not. Hopefully he takes the Wayne Selden route instead of the Josh Selby route.
I fully agree, surely he has enough sense to realize that he is just NOT ready now if he comes on like Gang busters and finishes these last what 12-13 league games and has a really good tourney then ya , but I just don’t at this point see it happening.
Having said that I think if he comes back then if there was any chance of Stanley coming that will be gone - - but I’m ok with that too. If Quentin comes back for a Sophomore year - -would be ok.
What about Doke ? - -you think there would be ANY chance that he comes back ? - - I kind of have mixed feelings about it - -not sure which way I would feel - -on one side feel like we sure could use him - - -on the other kind of feel he is dwarfing any chance for other bigs that might want to come. - -I just don’t really think for his NBA stock purposes coming back is not going to help him that much - -Sorry but I just leary about him making it in the NBA anyways - -he is a old school big in the NBA - -he can make money ok but just don’t feel like it is going to be here in the States.
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@jayballer73 I would advise Doke to leave now while he still has some NBA value. Another setback next season and his NBA potential is zero.
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I’m sure his handlers will force him out
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@jayballer73 In a word…NO! No chance, no way, no how. If for some idiotic reason his family encourages him to enter the draft with agent, he will go undrafted and we will never hear his name again as he languishes away his career in Turkey, or Greece, or Sladonia. Selby had a better shot and was more athletic and everyone knows how that movie ended.
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@truehawk93 I’m sorry to say, but you are just spouting irrationality. Your heart is in the right place, but your head is not. You said, " I don’t understand how the NCAA can be allowed to use information gathered by the FBI. The FBI did their job and now they want to use the FBI’s evidence. All the manpower, resources, and investigations all belong to the FBI, not the NCAA." Do you not care about the truth? Does it even matter? You said, " KU needs to sue the NCAA for abuse of power, liable, and slander." Abuse of power? Of course, KU helped provide the grant of the NCAA’s authority. I’m not sure what is even remotely abusive here, notwithstanding the desire for SDS to play.
And truth is an absolute defense to libel or slander. So perhaps we can all understand why no one is suing. In civil court, all actors would be exposed to depositions, under oath. No one wants that. From top to bottom. Claiming someone cheated is clearly defamatory and it can cost folks money – so why no lawsuits? We know why.
Why didn’t KU cut ties with Adidas? Why didn’t KU sue Adidas? Come one. We know why (or at least we can put 2 and 2 together here).
And I’m sorry, could you provide me any authority wherein a private organization is prohibited from using investigative information if the investigative agency is willing to share the information?
We can assuage our own personal frustrations with venting, but venting is just that. Venting. It isn’t based in reality many times.
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In addition, I have not heard about the FBI sharing information other than what was presented in the court cases by document production, disclosed depositions, and court testimony. The NCAA’s new enforcement protocols allow them to use info developed by outside agencies. Forgive me, but there is no evidence of collusion.
Interestingly, the reports of Ayton’s 100K payment and the supposed tape of Stumpy (I prefer Sweaty), were from leaks allegedly from FBI sources. But, as we know, nothing came of that–maybe because leaked hearsay evidence is precisely among the types of info on which the NCAA won’t base a case.
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Fightsongwriter said:
@jayballer73 In a word…NO! No chance, no way, no how. If for some idiotic reason his family encourages him to enter the draft with agent, he will go undrafted and we will never hear his name again as he languishes away his career in Turkey, or Greece, or Sladonia. Selby had a better shot and was more athletic and everyone knows how that movie ended.
pretty much what I was thinking. - -I just don’t see how there is anyway he could possibly entertain any thought of entering - -BUT who the hell knows these days with these teenagers. - -We all know the NBA drafts on potential goes a long ways but man he is just so lost right now. You can see in his face - - his movements - -his body chemistry - he has zero confidence in himself right now his shot. - -He returning will help both parties I. think - -hell I’m so lost in this recruiting stuff right now.
I think this dam trial has kicked us right square in the nads and really hard - -I think it sure swayed some in the other direction for sure. - -I think it will also end up swaying Hurt in another direction also when it’s all said and done - - won’t be the only factor for him but sure the hell won’t help. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Huh. Guess the sky didn’t completely fall, whodathunkit?
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Self is the king of the bounce back game. The Phog helped this team out tremendously last night. We still have our road woes… unless last night was the kick in the butt this team needed. In the past the SEC challenge game has also helped turn things around. A change in common foe/atmosphere can do that.
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I think Self will salvage the regular season, but the direction he is heading looks like it will be at the expense of any chance at a deep postseason run.
Self appears to be abandoning Grimes at this point and putting this team in the hands of D. Lawson (good idea) and Marcus Garrett (not as good an idea). Dotson has leveled out. Vick will still have games where he is huge.
This recipe puts a definite ceiling on this team. I am imagining a Round of 32 exit right now. If you disagree, answer this question - if the Iowa State and Texas games are not in AFH, does KU win either of those games? That’s why this team seems to be trending towards a team that will be solid through the rest of the regular season, but once they get away from AFH for half the games, the trends don’t look as promising.
My prediction would be that KU ties Tech for the title, preserving the streak, gets a 2 seed, loses to a 7 in the Round of 32 at a neutral site.
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@justanotherfan how many chances does he have to give Grimes? I’m shocked how patient he’s been w/him.
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@justanotherfan I think I’ll wait until after the KSU game to make my prediction. If we go 4-0 or 3-1 during this next stretch, I think Bill might have something working.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@justanotherfan I think I’ll wait until after the KSU game to make my prediction. If we go 4-0 or 3-1 during this next stretch, I think Bill might have something working.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@justanotherfan how many chances does he have to give Grimes? I’m shocked how patient he’s been w/him.
All of the chances. We just saw Ochai and KJ commit 10 fouls in like 15 combined minutes. I doubt it will be the last time that happens.
Not to mention that he has proven he is capable of scoring and shooting the ball well at different times this season. He is a weapon, we just have to get him confident and consistent.
There are basically only 3 outcomes that remain at this point.
Either Grimes gets better, Ochai gets better, or we are lose early in the tourney.
So giving up on Grimes isn’t really much of an option unless you think Ochai will be able to go 35 minutes a game without fouling out AND keep up his current level of play.
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@Kcmatt7 I guess I meant I don’t think he’s giving up on him, I think he should continue to start too.
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@Kcmatt7 I don’t think anyone has given up on Grimes. A role adjustment to give a different perspective might be helpful is all. Agbaji’s fouls per 40 minutes are actually less than KJ, Doke, and Mitch. But aggressive play is a good thing. Really, the two most telling stats on Grimes are his ridiculously low rates of steals and rebounds. .5 steals per 40 minutes, last on the team. And 3.8 rebounds per 40 minutes, leading only Charlie Moore. ACTIVITY!
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@HighEliteMajor I also think ochai will learn what he can’t do too from last night.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@HighEliteMajor I also think ochai will learn what he can’t do too from last night.
I also think the refs will learn what Ochai CAN do without fouling.
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@Crimsonorblue22 While his 2 drives were classic freshman - brain in another universe, sped up faster than the spaceship that took him there - a couple of the fouls were kinda flukey IMHO. His D and aggression in all the other games has been spot on. For only playing in what, 4 games? He has been fantastic and continue to produce far and away more than Q. It’s not even close.
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The only issue with Agbaji starting is then KU will have nothing off the bench. Grimes is really bad right now and benching him might destroy whatever is left of his confidence. That doesn’t mean that Grimes still has to play start level minutes.
Just remember that Christian Moody was a starter, but played very little outside of that. Grimes can start, and if he’s good, leave him in for more minutes, and if not, bring in Agbaji at the under 16 whistle. Also doesn’t mean Grimes has to be on the floor in closing minutes if Agbaji is still in.
Agbaji is a very high energy player and that’s an asset that can definitely be very beneficial coming off the bench. It doesn’t prevent Agbaji from playing 25-30 minutes if he gets his fouls under control. I’m sure Self enjoys having someone he has to feel in instead of having to try and bring put aggression like he does with Grimes.
I get the argument for starting Agbaji, it I think I would still bring him off the bench for now so KU has a high energy guard to bring off the bench if there is a slow start.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I’ve never understood the logic. Come off the bench for “energy” – one time is all that it might matter. Emphasis on might. After that, everyone is rotating. When coaches don’t even sub many times for 5-6 minutes, you start your best players. You play your best players.
Playing well at the start of the game, the points, the points allowed, are all just as important as the points late in the game. Those points/points allowed are much more important than a one time, alleged/possible, burst of energy.
What you’re talking about is coddling Grimes. Being so concerned about a possible fragile psyche. Maybe Grimes needs a wake up call. Agbaji is better now. Earn it.
In fact, logic would say to give Grimes a different look. Let him come off the bench. See if that changes his outlook, effort, and results.
I would not be saying this if Grimes was filling the stat sheet with effort numbers, or playing reasonable defense. He needs to re-boot.
But Self agrees with you. He said tonight Grimes is the starter. I believe in playing young guys to get them game experience, so they’re ready for March. Here’s hoping that faith plays out over the next few weeks.
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@HighEliteMajor In no way did I suggest anything about coddling Grimes. Nowhere did I say Grimes should play 30-35 minutes regardless of how he’s playing. His minutes should be based off of how he’s playing. If he’s playing reasonably well, then 30 or so minutes would be warranted for that game. If Grimes is playing with low energy or just really bad, he plays under 20 minutes that night and Agbaji gets the bulk of those minutes in that game.
I also did specifically mention Agabaji being a spark if KU gets off to a slow start. A one time spark at the beginning of the game should be all KU would need at that point to get going.
There’s multiple examples under Self of guys who didn’t start that would regularly be on the floor in important situations. Agbaji coming off the bench doesn’t prevent him from being on the floor to end a half or in crunch time in late game situations. It just means that his energy is an asset that can be utilized off the bench to start the game if necessary and he can still be a 25-30 minute per game player.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 What you’re suggesting … starting a non-deserving player and doing so in part because he’s fragile (not starting “might destroy his confidence” is what you said) is coddling. Can’t dress that one up. I never suggested you said to play him 30-35 minutes.
My point in response to your post was the illogical argument to play an inferior player 4-5 minutes so the better player might … might … come in and provide “energy.”
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@HighEliteMajor KU doesn’t have the back court depth to deal with Grimes having his confidence completely destroyed at this point. Without Grimes, Charlie Moore would be the only back court sub KU had and KU can’t afford that.
Salvaging Grimes as best as possible this season needs to be a priority right now because KU won’t do anything in March without him contributing.
I’m not saying Agbaji might energy off the bench. He does bring energy off the bench. Whether or not KU needs that energy in a given game is another issue.
It has always been and will always be much more important whose on the floor in crunch time than who starts a game.
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I don’t think this team has hit stride or ceiling. Grimes is too talented not to breakout. We all saw the MSU game, so we know he is capable. I actually think this team can bring it together at the right time. #15 is going to be tough. They can do it, but it’s going to be a grind. MAYBE, losing #15 lights a fire for a NC? My biggest fear is Grimes not finding his stride this year.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 This year’s doldrums by the starters certainly caused lots of us to wish for the energy we watched Silvio provided off the bench last year. With him unavailable, Ochai has fulfilled the role of jumpstarter nicely. We have seen others do it over the years. In '08, it was Collins, who played more minutes off the bench in many games than some starters.
That said, it is more important to find a way to prevent the doldrums on the starters than to keep applying a fix during games. Introducing Ochai’s energy at the beginning instead of suffering through Grimes’ indecisiveness would match his athleticism with Vick’s, and with Dotson’s speed added to the mix, who knows? It might be really fun to watch, reminiscent of the Razorbacks’ Delph, Moncrief and Brewer in '77-'78.
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@mayjay I’m really hoping Ochai is a fast learner. He gets better by the game. Let’s hope he can step up where Grimes is struggling. I hope they both get it together and we have 2x the firepower. Dotson had a few good looks and he needs to knock down those looks. I will take Ochai’s D right now. Good D leads to O.
DLaw’s treys were a welcomed bonus.
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I’m laughing so hard right now. Bill won’t give freshmen enough minutes. Then - Imagine if Oubre had played all year. Now - Bill needs to yank Grimes he needs to earn his minutes. Lol can’t win
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I feel like the aflac duck. So, you assume that bringing him off the bench will have “his confidence completely destroyed.” Wild speculation. And then assume some scenario where we don’t have Grimes, referencing Moore as the “only backcourt sub.” I guess assuming Grimes quits or wilts like an unwatered flower. I have no idea where you’re going with this. And you state the obvious, that salvaging Grimes is a priority that it’s more important who is on floor in crunch time – which has nothing to do with the discussion of the first 4-5 minutes of the game of course. And you realize you can actually play a guy in the first 4-5 minutes and in crunch time, right? Those are not mutually exclusive options. Then you disparage your own “energy” stuff saying that “whether or not KU needs that energy in a a given game is another issue.” Right, but you realize that you’re saying not to start Ogbaji partly because of “energy”? Or do you?
Sorry, but playing your best players is a tried and true formula. I’ll stick with that.
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@HighEliteMajor One thing that has always troubled me over my years of coaching and watching my kid’s teams when I was not coaching, is how many coaches seem to patently refuse to play their best players all at the same time. Never once as a coach did I not start my best 5 unless there was an eligibility issue. So maybe we flip this debate which is losing “energy” and answer a simpler/better? question: Who are our best 5 players right now?
- Dedric
- Vick
- Dotson
- Garrett
- Agbaji
That’s who you start. And btw…this “deep” pre-season team everyone was raving about has gotten real thin real quick.
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@Fightsongwriter It is quite simple when you think about it. When Grimes cracks that top 5, he should start. Right now, the total package favors Agbaji. I wonder, is there an area than one would favor Grimes over Agbaji right now, other than recruiting ranking.
I do acknowledge, of course, that in certain instances that a better player might come off the bench. That is mostly reserved for a situation where the better player does not perform well as a starter, and feels more comfortable. Not the other way around.
Here, there is not evidence Grimes does better as a starter vs. coming off the bench. Thus it seems reasonable to try him off the bench to give him a different look. You never know.
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This is what Self said last night on Hawk Talk in regards to Grimes. In the past we’ve wanted Self to play his young players through growing pains. This is a great example of Self doubling down on that belief right now.
Quentin Grimes is a good player and he’s talented and he’s in a little bit of a freshman funk,” Self said during the second part of his weekly radio show. “But he’s our starter, he’s going to continue to start and we know for us to have the best chance to win over time that we’ve got to have our most talented guys playing at a high level and we think he’s more than capable of doing that.”
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@BeddieKU23 That quote is gold. It’s gold for folks that have criticized Self and have listened to those that whine about anything that challenges Self’s decisions.
When Self states that as his logic, it’s hard to argue quite frankly. So this morphs into a trust Self moment for me.
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@HighEliteMajor Amen to that. And what truly matters is that Q trusts in HCBS.
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I’ll trust Self. the quote is compelling.Agbaji seems to be thriving in his role. We can criticize further after a tournament exit where one of the wings doesn’t produce lol :trollface:
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Fightsongwriter said:
@HighEliteMajor One thing that has always troubled me over my years of coaching and watching my kid’s teams when I was not coaching, is how many coaches seem to patently refuse to play their best players all at the same time. Never once as a coach did I not start my best 5 unless there was an eligibility issue. So maybe we flip this debate which is losing “energy” and answer a simpler/better? question: Who are our best 5 players right now?
- Dedric
- Vick
- Dotson
- Garrett
- Agbaji
That’s who you start. And btw…this “deep” pre-season team everyone was raving about has gotten real thin real quick.
haha…in those positions? I would love to see Self play DLaw at the 1 and Ochai at the 5…then when teams switch, they would be back in their regular position. JK
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@truehawk93 Clearly you have spent too much time coaching hoops!
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Grimes doesn’t have a lot of confidence in his shot right now. Self has had a pretty quick hook with him the last several games. Against Iowa State, Grimes was effectively benched in the second half (did not play until Agbaji fouled out). That was a red flag to me because it suggested that Self had given up on Grimes.
Now, obviously I don’t know if Self talked to him about it or not. But the implication when you have a guy that has been starting, and then he doesn’t get into the game in the second half until after the under 8 timeout when a teammate fouled out is that he is being moved out of the rotation.
Grimes, from a talent/ability perspective, is probably the best player on this team. He’s no worse than second best. That talent was on display in high school. It was on display during the U18 tournament this summer.
But there’s something very telling about Grimes in particular. His jumpshot has been slumping, and yet he is being used as a three point shooter almost exclusively.
For the U18 team, Grimes shot 77 total shots, of which 25 were threes. That means about a third of his shots were threes. For KU he has attempted 139 total shots. 71 of those have been threes. Simply put, Grimes’ shot distribution is skewed. He’s shooting way too many threes. Part of that is shot selection on his part. Part of that is aggressiveness on the drive from him. And part is schematic.
Shot selection - Grimes needs to shoot only open, rhythm threes for the next several games. Catch and shoot in rhythm. Basically, pick out only the highest quality threes to take. Turn down the rest.
Aggressiveness - Since he’s going to be turning down a couple of threes a game, those have to turn into aggressive drives with dangerous intent. Basically, he needs to drive looking to tomahawk someones head into the basket when he turns down jumpers. Just turn the corner and attack.
Scheme - Move Grimes to the strong side more, or even on the ball some. Grimes has spent a lot of time off the ball, standing in the corner or on the wing spacing the floor. He has to become more involved, and that means being in different places, and not just used as a floor spacer.
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Grimes hasn’t been benched because of his shot or scoring. He has seen a decrease in minutes because he does not affect the game in any way for his teammates. He never has any energy or shows positive emotion.
If Q was out there locking his guy down, and grabbing rebounds he would still be playing as much as he was. He is not. Therefore, his minutes have in needed to decrease.
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@justanotherfan - Your comment focused on Grimes’ offense. IIRC, Bill pulls players just as quickly if they foul up on defense. I have seen only 3-4 games, so I don’t have a handle on Grimes’ defensive abilities. Can I get some comments on that, please?
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@Woodrow Completely agree. When you see a stat line that is 19 minutes and zeroes everywhere, that is telling. Activity, rebounds, assists, disruption, and hustle first – and that all can lead to offense. A guy that is truly struggling to adjust from his other basketball experiences.
@Gorilla72 His defense is pretty bad. Maybe only better than Moore, but only because of size. He got blown by on WVU’s go ahead bucket in the last 10 seconds, without as much as whimper. He regularly shows poor effort defensively. Sporadically fine. Consistently, though – not.
Offense, though, as @justanotherfan noted, needs to be part of the turnaround. A different mindset.
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@Gorilla72 Grimes has patented the matador D.
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@Fightsongwriter I call infringement on sophomore Ellis. Perry made some of the most athletic plays I’ve ever seen…getting out of the way.
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@dylans LOL. We may need a more emphatic nickname for that style of D. Louganis D? Nice dive, Perry!
