Has Bill Self Lost This Team?
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It’s a bad loss…no big deal. Believe in self and the jayhawks.
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I didn’t think this was a bad loss at all. WVU played pretty good defense. They defended the point well, especially at the end, and we had no answer. What gives me hope is our defensive play, which is keeping us in nearly every game. The defense is consistently good, and defense can get you far in March. I hope the team hurts. No pain, no gain. But I’m ok.
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who knows maybe this loss wasn’t as bad as it looked. - -we have announcers saying that West Virginia isn’t as bad as it has shown , you could see this coming a mile away had just got blown out - had KU coming in - we always play bad there it seems.
Then you look at the other games from the league today. - -TCU which blew this same West Virginia team out by 31 - -losers to K-State by 10. - - - Record wise anyways Texas you would have to say up set Oklahoma - Oklahoma 13- 4- - -Texas 10-7. – Then you have Baylor beating Tech - -maybe the whole league sucks - -a bunch of average teams that no one is that much better or worse then the others - -just gonna beat one another up like last year we had some pretty good teams - -I don’t know - -I all know we better be ready Monday - -Although I could easily see this teams losing - possible 4 more league games for sure - -and the way things are going right now – Next Saturday - - Kentucky will kick our ass - the way they have been playing - -and then the way we play. - -Dedric gonna be in trouble, with match up - they got to many bigs send on out - -bring one in - -not good
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He hasn’t lost the team. They seem to play hard, imo. He just doesn’t know how to coach underclassmen guards.
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@Kcmatt7 Self knows exactly how to coach young guards. They just don’t become finished products right away. Mason and Graham each took until their third years to become elite guards.
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We have two freshmen guards and Vick is what he is…he is not a leader. Bad plays down the stretch.
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Self know how to develop them over years, absolutely. But he’s clueless as to how to coach with them in game when they’re this young. And most of it is his own strange trust issues.
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Kcmatt7 said:
Self know how to develop them over years, absolutely. But he’s clueless as to how to coach with them in game when they’re this young. And most of it is his own strange trust issues.
The compounding issue is elite guards only stay one year and Bill still chases them. In the case of Grimes, he ended up not being elite.
This team has three very good players in Dedric, Garrett and Dotson. Though Dotson obviously played poorly yesterday. A FR playing badly on the road who would have guessed? The other two starters are atrocious at defense and rebounding. I think Agbaji is closer to being a dude than Grimes is at this point, but he finally played like a FR yesterday as well. Vick is certainly needed for his shot making, unfortunately so you have to keep playing him.
KJ is at his best when he plays at the 4 with Dedric at the 5. If I were Self, this would be the only time I play KJ. He doesn’t work with Dave.
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Wow. A tough loss to a desperately hungry team in a venue we’ve always struggled in regardless of how many mvps we have, and I’m hearing we might lose out and not make the dance???
Hey I hate losing as much as anyone else but jeez, get a grip and pull up those big boy pants.
Could we lose the rest of the conf games? Of course it’s possible… here’s a little secret… come closer… each game, two teams of kids take the court, and play as well as they can. For both teams, sometimes kids get injured, or are fighting a cold, or get overwhelmed, and other times the basket looks as big as a trash can and everything falls. But here’s the secret… one team has to lose. I know Crazy huh? It happens so infrequently to us we tend to forget that little fact.
But that’s what makes it exciting. We could play Div II and beat the crap out of everyone every night, but that wouldn’t be that fun would it? You know why? It’s because you took out all the variables that make them game exciting. The parity of the best playing the best.
Bill Self is a brilliant HOF coach. But even he can’t control or foresee all the variables that swirl around a game that moves lightning fast. Yes even brilliant men make mistakes and… gasp… lose games.
So now dry your eyes and accept that you too, have no way of accessing and successfully evaluating the variables that swirl around every game. You see a tenth, maybe a hundredth of the variables Self sees.
What you can do is look at the few variables you can actually see and couple that with past performance and outcomes - and make projections. Which is what this board is all about.
And while I rarely agree with all the nervous nelly naysayers projections, I totally respect their right to post them. Just as I have a right to post my respectful counter opinions.
And looking at all the rabbits Self has pulled out of that magic crimson and blue hat year in and year out… I say anyone who thinks our chess master is going to just rollover and let the Big 12 have their way with him and his talented, if green, Top 20 team, hasn’t been paying much attention the last 14 years.
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Does anyone think Quentin is a OAD and that he will leave after this year?
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@jayballer73 He shouldn’t be, but we’ll have to wait and see if he’s hellbent on it or not. Hopefully he takes the Wayne Selden route instead of the Josh Selby route.
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it’s getting too late to evaluate a team at this point. Most teams have what they’re going to play for the remainder of the season. We are fast approaching the second half of the season. Self needs to go with his best small and big ball lineups. This team doesn’t seem capable of making the necessary adjustments and turning corners. We’ve all played with various line-ups.
Dotson
Garrett
Grimes
Vick
DLaw
Big ball:
Dotson
Garrett
Grimes
DLaw/Meeotch
Big Mac/Meeotch (hope Silvio can play any game now, but looking less likely now than before)
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NO HE HAS NOT LOSS THIS TEAM
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I think Grimes needs a reality check on his game. He’s making some big blunders at key times and those often not only cost us points or possessions, but are big momentum killers.
WVU isolated him on that finally play because he is our weakness on defense.
I still want to support the freshman, but he represents a big weakness on our team right now. He needs to find a way to better engage in D1. Not sure I know the answer for him but I see what is happening and just trying to point that out.
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My ongoing rant for Silvio may never be answered.
Gawd we need Silvio cleared yesterday. What little the NCAA has responded to concerning the whole ineligibility, reinstatement plan is they will stall and claim they will “review” the request. We all know what “review” means. Before, I thought there was a chance. So, now there is really no choice. If you play Silvio and we win the B12, the NCAA is holding KU hostage. They will rule to vacate the wins. Or, Self keeps him on the bench and they simply do not rule at all. They are controlling this by being the good guy, but then when it comes to ruling, they have the power to rule against KU as they deem necessary. This is too much power. I really believe KU should have the option to play him and if they rule against KU, no wins should be vacated. He is simply declared ineligible. I guarantee you if KU plays Silvio, the NCAA will kill themselves to rule him ineligible. But IF Self keeps him on the bench, and the evidence shows there was NO violations, KU needs to sue the NCAA for abuse of power, liable, and slander. You who claim KU is to blame are giving the NCAA way too much credit. They are the authority and do govern this matter. KU has little to no way of acting within any guidelines. The NCAA has way too much power in these matters. Is it KU’s fault the NCAA is unable to investigate and make a ruling within a reasonable amount of time? There’s a lot of precedence that says KU may have a way to play him, but can and will most likely be held accountable for any actions against the NCAA at this point.
KU is screwed whether he plays or not. This brings up another question. I really don’t understand how the FBI has any jurisdiction with college bball violations. I didn’t realize the NCAA was a federal entity or at least fell within federal laws. The NCAA is capable of interviewing ADIDAS. They don’t have enough teeth to bite and draw blood. So, they some how utlitze the FBI? Did ADIDAS commit a federal crime? Who is the victim? The NCAA? KU? They ruled KU was the victim, but Self is holding Silvio out? The real criminals were sentenced and justice was served. But now the NCAA wants to apply their punishment. So, not only do they use the FBI, but they also used the Grand Jury to do their job too. This is insane abuse, fraud, and flat out lunacy.
I’m beating a silent drum. I will never understand how the NCAA is using information the judge clearly declared as inadmissible. Also, the judge in the Grand Jury declared programs, coaches, and players were not on trial. He made it crystal clear the ADIDAS defendants were on trial and they were found guilty. The sleazy lawyer plays the KU card and now all that information is being used against KU. I don’t understand how the NCAA can be allowed to use information gathered by the FBI. The FBI did their job and now they want to use the FBI’s evidence. All the manpower, resources, and investigations all belong to the FBI, not the NCAA.
Catch my drift or am I just being obtuse…is it deliberate? Love this line.
I’ll let you make the parallelisms.
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Love this movie!
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jayballer73 He shouldn’t be, but we’ll have to wait and see if he’s hellbent on it or not. Hopefully he takes the Wayne Selden route instead of the Josh Selby route.
I fully agree, surely he has enough sense to realize that he is just NOT ready now if he comes on like Gang busters and finishes these last what 12-13 league games and has a really good tourney then ya , but I just don’t at this point see it happening.
Having said that I think if he comes back then if there was any chance of Stanley coming that will be gone - - but I’m ok with that too. If Quentin comes back for a Sophomore year - -would be ok.
What about Doke ? - -you think there would be ANY chance that he comes back ? - - I kind of have mixed feelings about it - -not sure which way I would feel - -on one side feel like we sure could use him - - -on the other kind of feel he is dwarfing any chance for other bigs that might want to come. - -I just don’t really think for his NBA stock purposes coming back is not going to help him that much - -Sorry but I just leary about him making it in the NBA anyways - -he is a old school big in the NBA - -he can make money ok but just don’t feel like it is going to be here in the States.
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@jayballer73 I would advise Doke to leave now while he still has some NBA value. Another setback next season and his NBA potential is zero.
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I’m sure his handlers will force him out
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@jayballer73 In a word…NO! No chance, no way, no how. If for some idiotic reason his family encourages him to enter the draft with agent, he will go undrafted and we will never hear his name again as he languishes away his career in Turkey, or Greece, or Sladonia. Selby had a better shot and was more athletic and everyone knows how that movie ended.
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@truehawk93 I’m sorry to say, but you are just spouting irrationality. Your heart is in the right place, but your head is not. You said, " I don’t understand how the NCAA can be allowed to use information gathered by the FBI. The FBI did their job and now they want to use the FBI’s evidence. All the manpower, resources, and investigations all belong to the FBI, not the NCAA." Do you not care about the truth? Does it even matter? You said, " KU needs to sue the NCAA for abuse of power, liable, and slander." Abuse of power? Of course, KU helped provide the grant of the NCAA’s authority. I’m not sure what is even remotely abusive here, notwithstanding the desire for SDS to play.
And truth is an absolute defense to libel or slander. So perhaps we can all understand why no one is suing. In civil court, all actors would be exposed to depositions, under oath. No one wants that. From top to bottom. Claiming someone cheated is clearly defamatory and it can cost folks money – so why no lawsuits? We know why.
Why didn’t KU cut ties with Adidas? Why didn’t KU sue Adidas? Come one. We know why (or at least we can put 2 and 2 together here).
And I’m sorry, could you provide me any authority wherein a private organization is prohibited from using investigative information if the investigative agency is willing to share the information?
We can assuage our own personal frustrations with venting, but venting is just that. Venting. It isn’t based in reality many times.
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In addition, I have not heard about the FBI sharing information other than what was presented in the court cases by document production, disclosed depositions, and court testimony. The NCAA’s new enforcement protocols allow them to use info developed by outside agencies. Forgive me, but there is no evidence of collusion.
Interestingly, the reports of Ayton’s 100K payment and the supposed tape of Stumpy (I prefer Sweaty), were from leaks allegedly from FBI sources. But, as we know, nothing came of that–maybe because leaked hearsay evidence is precisely among the types of info on which the NCAA won’t base a case.
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Fightsongwriter said:
@jayballer73 In a word…NO! No chance, no way, no how. If for some idiotic reason his family encourages him to enter the draft with agent, he will go undrafted and we will never hear his name again as he languishes away his career in Turkey, or Greece, or Sladonia. Selby had a better shot and was more athletic and everyone knows how that movie ended.
pretty much what I was thinking. - -I just don’t see how there is anyway he could possibly entertain any thought of entering - -BUT who the hell knows these days with these teenagers. - -We all know the NBA drafts on potential goes a long ways but man he is just so lost right now. You can see in his face - - his movements - -his body chemistry - he has zero confidence in himself right now his shot. - -He returning will help both parties I. think - -hell I’m so lost in this recruiting stuff right now.
I think this dam trial has kicked us right square in the nads and really hard - -I think it sure swayed some in the other direction for sure. - -I think it will also end up swaying Hurt in another direction also when it’s all said and done - - won’t be the only factor for him but sure the hell won’t help. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Huh. Guess the sky didn’t completely fall, whodathunkit?
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Self is the king of the bounce back game. The Phog helped this team out tremendously last night. We still have our road woes… unless last night was the kick in the butt this team needed. In the past the SEC challenge game has also helped turn things around. A change in common foe/atmosphere can do that.
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I think Self will salvage the regular season, but the direction he is heading looks like it will be at the expense of any chance at a deep postseason run.
Self appears to be abandoning Grimes at this point and putting this team in the hands of D. Lawson (good idea) and Marcus Garrett (not as good an idea). Dotson has leveled out. Vick will still have games where he is huge.
This recipe puts a definite ceiling on this team. I am imagining a Round of 32 exit right now. If you disagree, answer this question - if the Iowa State and Texas games are not in AFH, does KU win either of those games? That’s why this team seems to be trending towards a team that will be solid through the rest of the regular season, but once they get away from AFH for half the games, the trends don’t look as promising.
My prediction would be that KU ties Tech for the title, preserving the streak, gets a 2 seed, loses to a 7 in the Round of 32 at a neutral site.
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@justanotherfan how many chances does he have to give Grimes? I’m shocked how patient he’s been w/him.
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@justanotherfan I think I’ll wait until after the KSU game to make my prediction. If we go 4-0 or 3-1 during this next stretch, I think Bill might have something working.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@justanotherfan I think I’ll wait until after the KSU game to make my prediction. If we go 4-0 or 3-1 during this next stretch, I think Bill might have something working.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@justanotherfan how many chances does he have to give Grimes? I’m shocked how patient he’s been w/him.
All of the chances. We just saw Ochai and KJ commit 10 fouls in like 15 combined minutes. I doubt it will be the last time that happens.
Not to mention that he has proven he is capable of scoring and shooting the ball well at different times this season. He is a weapon, we just have to get him confident and consistent.
There are basically only 3 outcomes that remain at this point.
Either Grimes gets better, Ochai gets better, or we are lose early in the tourney.
So giving up on Grimes isn’t really much of an option unless you think Ochai will be able to go 35 minutes a game without fouling out AND keep up his current level of play.
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@Kcmatt7 I guess I meant I don’t think he’s giving up on him, I think he should continue to start too.
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@Kcmatt7 I don’t think anyone has given up on Grimes. A role adjustment to give a different perspective might be helpful is all. Agbaji’s fouls per 40 minutes are actually less than KJ, Doke, and Mitch. But aggressive play is a good thing. Really, the two most telling stats on Grimes are his ridiculously low rates of steals and rebounds. .5 steals per 40 minutes, last on the team. And 3.8 rebounds per 40 minutes, leading only Charlie Moore. ACTIVITY!
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@HighEliteMajor I also think ochai will learn what he can’t do too from last night.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@HighEliteMajor I also think ochai will learn what he can’t do too from last night.
I also think the refs will learn what Ochai CAN do without fouling.
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@Crimsonorblue22 While his 2 drives were classic freshman - brain in another universe, sped up faster than the spaceship that took him there - a couple of the fouls were kinda flukey IMHO. His D and aggression in all the other games has been spot on. For only playing in what, 4 games? He has been fantastic and continue to produce far and away more than Q. It’s not even close.
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The only issue with Agbaji starting is then KU will have nothing off the bench. Grimes is really bad right now and benching him might destroy whatever is left of his confidence. That doesn’t mean that Grimes still has to play start level minutes.
Just remember that Christian Moody was a starter, but played very little outside of that. Grimes can start, and if he’s good, leave him in for more minutes, and if not, bring in Agbaji at the under 16 whistle. Also doesn’t mean Grimes has to be on the floor in closing minutes if Agbaji is still in.
Agbaji is a very high energy player and that’s an asset that can definitely be very beneficial coming off the bench. It doesn’t prevent Agbaji from playing 25-30 minutes if he gets his fouls under control. I’m sure Self enjoys having someone he has to feel in instead of having to try and bring put aggression like he does with Grimes.
I get the argument for starting Agbaji, it I think I would still bring him off the bench for now so KU has a high energy guard to bring off the bench if there is a slow start.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I’ve never understood the logic. Come off the bench for “energy” – one time is all that it might matter. Emphasis on might. After that, everyone is rotating. When coaches don’t even sub many times for 5-6 minutes, you start your best players. You play your best players.
Playing well at the start of the game, the points, the points allowed, are all just as important as the points late in the game. Those points/points allowed are much more important than a one time, alleged/possible, burst of energy.
What you’re talking about is coddling Grimes. Being so concerned about a possible fragile psyche. Maybe Grimes needs a wake up call. Agbaji is better now. Earn it.
In fact, logic would say to give Grimes a different look. Let him come off the bench. See if that changes his outlook, effort, and results.
I would not be saying this if Grimes was filling the stat sheet with effort numbers, or playing reasonable defense. He needs to re-boot.
But Self agrees with you. He said tonight Grimes is the starter. I believe in playing young guys to get them game experience, so they’re ready for March. Here’s hoping that faith plays out over the next few weeks.
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@HighEliteMajor In no way did I suggest anything about coddling Grimes. Nowhere did I say Grimes should play 30-35 minutes regardless of how he’s playing. His minutes should be based off of how he’s playing. If he’s playing reasonably well, then 30 or so minutes would be warranted for that game. If Grimes is playing with low energy or just really bad, he plays under 20 minutes that night and Agbaji gets the bulk of those minutes in that game.
I also did specifically mention Agabaji being a spark if KU gets off to a slow start. A one time spark at the beginning of the game should be all KU would need at that point to get going.
There’s multiple examples under Self of guys who didn’t start that would regularly be on the floor in important situations. Agbaji coming off the bench doesn’t prevent him from being on the floor to end a half or in crunch time in late game situations. It just means that his energy is an asset that can be utilized off the bench to start the game if necessary and he can still be a 25-30 minute per game player.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 What you’re suggesting … starting a non-deserving player and doing so in part because he’s fragile (not starting “might destroy his confidence” is what you said) is coddling. Can’t dress that one up. I never suggested you said to play him 30-35 minutes.
My point in response to your post was the illogical argument to play an inferior player 4-5 minutes so the better player might … might … come in and provide “energy.”
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@HighEliteMajor KU doesn’t have the back court depth to deal with Grimes having his confidence completely destroyed at this point. Without Grimes, Charlie Moore would be the only back court sub KU had and KU can’t afford that.
Salvaging Grimes as best as possible this season needs to be a priority right now because KU won’t do anything in March without him contributing.
I’m not saying Agbaji might energy off the bench. He does bring energy off the bench. Whether or not KU needs that energy in a given game is another issue.
It has always been and will always be much more important whose on the floor in crunch time than who starts a game.
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I don’t think this team has hit stride or ceiling. Grimes is too talented not to breakout. We all saw the MSU game, so we know he is capable. I actually think this team can bring it together at the right time. #15 is going to be tough. They can do it, but it’s going to be a grind. MAYBE, losing #15 lights a fire for a NC? My biggest fear is Grimes not finding his stride this year.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 This year’s doldrums by the starters certainly caused lots of us to wish for the energy we watched Silvio provided off the bench last year. With him unavailable, Ochai has fulfilled the role of jumpstarter nicely. We have seen others do it over the years. In '08, it was Collins, who played more minutes off the bench in many games than some starters.
That said, it is more important to find a way to prevent the doldrums on the starters than to keep applying a fix during games. Introducing Ochai’s energy at the beginning instead of suffering through Grimes’ indecisiveness would match his athleticism with Vick’s, and with Dotson’s speed added to the mix, who knows? It might be really fun to watch, reminiscent of the Razorbacks’ Delph, Moncrief and Brewer in '77-'78.
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@mayjay I’m really hoping Ochai is a fast learner. He gets better by the game. Let’s hope he can step up where Grimes is struggling. I hope they both get it together and we have 2x the firepower. Dotson had a few good looks and he needs to knock down those looks. I will take Ochai’s D right now. Good D leads to O.
DLaw’s treys were a welcomed bonus.
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I’m laughing so hard right now. Bill won’t give freshmen enough minutes. Then - Imagine if Oubre had played all year. Now - Bill needs to yank Grimes he needs to earn his minutes. Lol can’t win
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I feel like the aflac duck. So, you assume that bringing him off the bench will have “his confidence completely destroyed.” Wild speculation. And then assume some scenario where we don’t have Grimes, referencing Moore as the “only backcourt sub.” I guess assuming Grimes quits or wilts like an unwatered flower. I have no idea where you’re going with this. And you state the obvious, that salvaging Grimes is a priority that it’s more important who is on floor in crunch time – which has nothing to do with the discussion of the first 4-5 minutes of the game of course. And you realize you can actually play a guy in the first 4-5 minutes and in crunch time, right? Those are not mutually exclusive options. Then you disparage your own “energy” stuff saying that “whether or not KU needs that energy in a a given game is another issue.” Right, but you realize that you’re saying not to start Ogbaji partly because of “energy”? Or do you?
Sorry, but playing your best players is a tried and true formula. I’ll stick with that.
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@HighEliteMajor One thing that has always troubled me over my years of coaching and watching my kid’s teams when I was not coaching, is how many coaches seem to patently refuse to play their best players all at the same time. Never once as a coach did I not start my best 5 unless there was an eligibility issue. So maybe we flip this debate which is losing “energy” and answer a simpler/better? question: Who are our best 5 players right now?
- Dedric
- Vick
- Dotson
- Garrett
- Agbaji
That’s who you start. And btw…this “deep” pre-season team everyone was raving about has gotten real thin real quick.
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@Fightsongwriter It is quite simple when you think about it. When Grimes cracks that top 5, he should start. Right now, the total package favors Agbaji. I wonder, is there an area than one would favor Grimes over Agbaji right now, other than recruiting ranking.
I do acknowledge, of course, that in certain instances that a better player might come off the bench. That is mostly reserved for a situation where the better player does not perform well as a starter, and feels more comfortable. Not the other way around.
Here, there is not evidence Grimes does better as a starter vs. coming off the bench. Thus it seems reasonable to try him off the bench to give him a different look. You never know.
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This is what Self said last night on Hawk Talk in regards to Grimes. In the past we’ve wanted Self to play his young players through growing pains. This is a great example of Self doubling down on that belief right now.
Quentin Grimes is a good player and he’s talented and he’s in a little bit of a freshman funk,” Self said during the second part of his weekly radio show. “But he’s our starter, he’s going to continue to start and we know for us to have the best chance to win over time that we’ve got to have our most talented guys playing at a high level and we think he’s more than capable of doing that.”
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@BeddieKU23 That quote is gold. It’s gold for folks that have criticized Self and have listened to those that whine about anything that challenges Self’s decisions.
When Self states that as his logic, it’s hard to argue quite frankly. So this morphs into a trust Self moment for me.
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@HighEliteMajor Amen to that. And what truly matters is that Q trusts in HCBS.
