NOA response from KU discussion
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Just checked in with one of my main guys at KU. They’re going at this until the bitter end with the full support of donors.
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You guys make me feel a lil better! It’s hard to be sitting home except to occasionally getting groceries and to worry about everything, even Matt’s wedding!
did mike bray just speak out? Is this next step w/ncaa or their appeal committee we met w/about Silvio.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Just checked in with one of my main guys at KU. They’re going at this until the bitter end with the full support of donors.
Good, this should be the stance. Seems like most if not all of what the NCAA has is from the trial.
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I sure hope they go at this with everything. I knew they will double down on their bull crap and it still angers me to no end that they actually think what they are saying is true. Sad organization
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Obviously the response from the NCAA will be a laugher. They will double down
I’m skimming it quick, and they have jack shit. They’ve never said shoe cos were boosters in any other case ever. They’re basically saying Gassnola perjured himself with no proof in pinning the violations on Self and Townsend. Even Mike Bray is like whoa there this is routine business you’re turning into L1 violations with no additional guidance telling us what we’re doing is wrong.
This was about as predictable as the sun coming up. The old man club must die
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SN going full wtf is the NCAA thinking https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/ncaa-response-to-kansas-bill-self-shows-confidence-in-its-case-but-not-an-abundance-of-logic/1bsrlbv5pc6tx1enyaicva9niy
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KU’s going to get hit with stuff for the payments to Preston and DeSousa. I don’t think anybody here has argued against that because that stuff happened. The severity of those punishments is going to depend on the final ruling of Gasnola and Adidas.
The NCAA is going to deeply regret the decision if they continue to pursue that Adidas is a KU booster. That’s decision that will ultimately cost the NCAA a lot of money because it will trickle to other corporate sponsors and other programs. Every other program is going to be rooting for KU in that part of the case because of the ramifications a ruling in the NCAA’s favor would have on everyone.
If the NCAA’s insistent on claiming KU was the only program benefitting from that practice, then that’s simple enough to disprove because of Brian Bowen. If the NCAA still claims it’s only Adidas, then keep it in house and bring back the Silvio part of the case and purpose of the $20,000 payment that Gasnola attempted to make. Now you have Under Armour dead to rights for the same practice. So now let’s say the NCAA acknowledges Adidas and UA, but ignores Nike, now KU should probably go full scorched earth and bring up the recruitments of DeAndre Ayton and Zion Williamson. Subpoena a Nike official involved in Ayton’s recruitment to ask why Ayton at pretty close to the last minute decides to commit to a program that had a coach nailed for bribery? Then you subpoena whoever at Nike that can answer why there is recording of Zion Williamson tied to $200,000 from Adidas to go to KU, but ended up at Duke. Did he simply turn down life changing money to go to Duke for free?
It just seems to me that the NCAA calling a corporate partner a booster is going to go down a rabbit hole the NCAA is going to deeply regret down if they pursue it.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
SN going full wtf is the NCAA thinking https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/ncaa-response-to-kansas-bill-self-shows-confidence-in-its-case-but-not-an-abundance-of-logic/1bsrlbv5pc6tx1enyaicva9niy
Mike Decourcy asks the most important question here: How do you claim that adidas is a representative of kansas’ athletic interests but also claim that shoe/apparel companies like nike are not acting in the interest of other universities?
The ncaa’s response to this - “there is no cause for concern among member institutions as most of their relationships with corporate entities comply with ncaa legislation” - is pretty vague and weak.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
SN going full wtf is the NCAA thinking https://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/ncaa-response-to-kansas-bill-self-shows-confidence-in-its-case-but-not-an-abundance-of-logic/1bsrlbv5pc6tx1enyaicva9niy
Mike Decourcy asks the most important question here: How do you claim that adidas is a representative of kansas’ athletic interests but also claim that shoe/apparel companies like nike are not acting in the interest of other universities?
The ncaa’s response to this - “there is no cause for concern among member institutions as most of their relationships with corporate entities comply with ncaa legislation” - is pretty vague and weak.
That statement alone from the NCAA makes me want to see KU go full scorched earth on the NCAA and burn them to the ground in the court room and summon every major recruit that has been connected to KU in recruiting and ask Nike/Under Armour representatives why a player rejected an offer from an Adidas rep to play for KU. There’s enough out there on Ayton and Zion that KU can drag Arizona and Duke down with them.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 very well said buddy!
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I am still having difficulty seeing Preston as an issue. Yes he got money I don’t doubt that however when it came to light he was instantly benched before ever playing a game, right? So can’t KU say yep he got paid and almost snuck that by us but once we got a clue, the car thing, our compliance people were on it in a flash, found the problem, and we reacted accordingly. Isn’t that how things are supposed to work?
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@Kubie said in NOA response from KU discussion:
I am still having difficulty seeing Preston as an issue. Yes he got money I don’t doubt that however when it came to light he was instantly benched before ever playing a game, right? So can’t KU say yep he got paid and almost snuck that by us but once we got a clue, the car thing, our compliance people were on it in a flash, found the problem, and we reacted accordingly. Isn’t that how things are supposed to work?
The punishment KU gets for Preston shouldn’t be very severe because he didn’t play a regular season game for KU and compliance did pull him as soon as a red flag was raised. That doesn’t change that a significant amount of money did change hands for Preston to attend KU so there will be something for that, probably probation, but there will be punishment for Preston.
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If there is punishment for the Preston situation I see no reason to support NCAA sports anymore
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@BeddieKU23 If it’s anything beyond probation for that incident specifically, then it’s an issue. Money was exchanged for him to come to KU, that is a violation plain and simple. Preston never playing a regular season game for KU will save them from a more severe punishment, but KU has no comeback for Preston getting paid by Adidas to attend KU.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 yep, put Preston on probation immediately.
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@Bwag his mother screwed him and us over, happy moms day to her!
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It feels like the prosecution style in the US court system 50 years ago… when you could be convicted with the guy sitting next to you who had pot on him because you were sitting in the same car. The NCAA believes the other passengers knew about the pot and probably benefited by sharing in the smoking.
Those cases “went up in smoke” later as the rights of each individual were broken.
I think Kansas will do well in federal court. The NCAA shoots themselves in the foot as much as they do anything else. Stating shoecos are boosters is just a novel idea. It is something that has never been formally established. Schools can not be held accountable because of an idea that was never established. Moving forward is a different thing. If the world would like to establish shoecos as boosters then situations like this can be addressed under different guidelines.
Giving Adidas personnel free access to practices? Free tickets to games? That’s called “working access.” Adidas is supplying shoes and needs to see how those shoes are being applied in use. And the fact that they hold multi-million dollar contracts with schools is merely business in a capitalist society. It takes hundreds of contracts to make college sports work. Who handles security at games… contracted… where do those hot dogs come from at concessions… contracted. Are all of these companies “boosters?”
Kansas needs to sue the NCAA. And they will. For unfair persecution. Their ability to hide behind a private organization’s rules are over. Their power has already been pierced through the federal courts. Kansas should go after them to the point of ending this organization and having control come through federal policies and enforcement through the DOJ.
Time to end this clown governing body. It’s always been a joke!
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I am starting to feel good about my prediction… In fact, in light of everything, my prediction might a bit too severe.
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I don’t feel good about any of it.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I am sorry to hear that…
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There is a third player in the NCAA’s response tied to Gassnola as well that could very well be another issue for KU. In a section that was heavily redacted, Tidiane Drame didn’t deny receiving a payment from a Gassnola funded AAU team. Drame was the legal guardian for Cheick Diallo. Basically that means Gassnola’s relationship with KU goes back at least to 2014.
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Good evening. Hope everyone is well. This is a horrible topic for Kansas basketball fans. Truth is important. Not what we want or hope. But “red pill” stuff. Reality. We are staring into the abyss - some thoughts:
- It is important to remember that “going to Court” is not a wild shoot-out. It’s been suggested by many here. It just isn’t that easy to make a reasonable case here. We should all understand that any court “solution” is a long shot at best. Just remember that - a long shot.
- Think about this - remember in the Adidas trial when the judge excluded certain evidence? Remember when the judge wouldn’t even let the defense call coaches to the stand? Heck, the judge wouldn’t even let the wiretapped call with Townsend into evidence, as the defense wanted. Why? It wasn’t relevant to Gatto’s actions. Gatto’s actions. Just like KU’s actions will be the focus in any lawsuit. It’s just not as simple as saying, “look, all of the top schools operate this way” and calling whatever witnesses you want to call. The fact is, the judge won’t let us subpoena Zion. Or coach K. That sounds nice. But those suggesting it just have no clue.
- Very importantly, going to court is also not one-sided. I’m quite sure the NCAA might choose to place Bill Self under oath in a deposition. Think about that. Federal court may not be quite as attractive as you might think, and it certainly may not be that attractive to Bill Self. Think of every question that the NCAA might want to pose to Bill Self to defend their actions. Right, that wouldn’t be pretty - I mean, since “everyone does it.” This “let’s go to court” thing is not as simple as attacking the NCAA. The NCAA will defend with a vengeance. And they would get what they can’t get now, folks under oath. Bill Self under oath.
- And in a court proceeding, the NCAA could then use subpoenas to defend against KU’s attacks. Think about that.
- Even if the NCAA’s perceived selective enforcement was really an issue, the NCAA can easily simply respond and state that they would certainly act if there was proof against other schools that was similar to the proof against Kansas. That the DOJ investigation uncovered information that they wouldn’t have been able to develop. That they have limited resources. And that the supposed acts of other schools is irrelevant as to whether Kansas violated rules. KU would have still violated the rules.
- It would be quite obvious to any judge that this circumstance has not arisen before, meaning this extensive a criminal prosecution, and thus there is no precedent to suggest it has handled others similarly situated, differently.
- Further, and I said this very early on – just because others have committed a crime and didn’t get caught, or the police can’t develop the evidence, doesn’t mean that the one guy that gets caught isn’t going to jail. We hear that a lot now.
- In any court action, the NCAA will correctly say that they have the right to administer “justice” under its governing authority. The NCAA is the representative of the schools. The schools are the shareholders, so to speak, and they make the rules. KU is a shareholder. This is not a debatable item.
- I’m just saying that’s the way it is. This is classic “red pill” stuff.
- I’ve read the “scorched earth” suggestion. It is really not a practical nor advisable solution to go “scorched earth” now, in my opinion. That is, it won’t help. Again, I think some think that this “going to court” thing is just a wide open forum to level accusations. Lawyers can’t do that in court. Lawyers get sanctioned. It’s why during proceedings lawyers are smart and offer “no comment” or a vague discussion of having trust in the process. “Scorched earth” is much better as a persuasive tool to coerce a more reasonable approach from the NCAA. “Scorched earth” as vengeance does us no good. We still lose.
- Early on I think many of you will recall that I suggested that we threaten to “burn it down” when confronted by the NCAA’s approach to punishing us while they know that others are doing the same thing. I suggested that we surely know where the bodies are buried - e.g., what others have been paid, by whom, and how much. This was not a popular suggestion. My thought was to very aggressively persuade the NCAA not to drop the hammer, because if they did, we would spill all the dirty laundry. Zion. Ayton. Everything we know. Call it an open letter to NCAA members that gets leaked. Whatever. But to coerce us out of this mess. It seems like that ship has passed. And out of court, call it “scorched earth” or “burn it down”, it should be in play.
- A point of concern - How can the NCAA back down now? “Egregious” and “severe.” Have you ever heard that before from the NCAA? We chose to attack. We chose this path. How can they NOT hammer us now?
- Our strategy is and has been a complete disaster. Unmitigated disaster – as it appears right now. This reply by the NCAA was the worst possible news we could have gotten. As a KU basketball fan, I’m disgusted by the incompetence of our leadership. And this isn’t Monday morning quarterbacking. I’ve said this all along.
- Do I believe Bill Self is ultimately the boss? I do. The Godfather in a positive sense. A guy whose ring we all should kiss – for his BB contributions. But I also believe that if the AD told Bill Self before that October/2018 disastrous press conference that we needed to be less confrontational, and that others advised the same thing, Bill Self is smart enough to listen. I also believe that if the AD was forceful about being conciliatory, that would have been heeded.
- You might recall that I suggested at the time that we be contrite, that we acknowledge issues, be supportive of the NCAA and its goals, and cooperate. Not roll over. But pledge to address the issues, be transparent, and not deny Adidas’ role. Show that we were working within the process. Again, I’m not sure I had one person that agreed with me. And I acknowledge that cooperation doesn’t always mean you skate.
- But many followed Bill Self’s unfortunate lead from October/2018. They took comfort in the fact that if Bill Self was defiant, there must be good cause. The middle finger to the NCAA so many crowed about. Well, Bill Self is not as brilliant as many seem to think. He should really stick to coaching basketball.
- Then, this “brilliant” man, together with our AD, think this whole Snoop Dog thing is a good idea with the money guns and ill-conceived announcement will Self in the big gold chain. Bill Self then feigned ignorance after Late Night. Again, how many here cheered all of that? Use your brain.
- The fact is, this reply from the NCAA shows that there are petty folks in the enforcement division that get personally offended. The exact thing I was concerned about. You don’t attack the folks that decide your punishment. You don’t use inflammatory language. You massage your denial. The language used by the NCAA was strong and intended to shove it back in our faces. You’d hope that folks in positions of enforcing rules (or laws) would not be like that, but they are. Same with prosecutors in criminal cases. Offend them and they can and will make your life hell. Why? They really answer to no one. They have a monolithic client and they have unfettered authority. They have power and they get satisfaction in exerting it. It’s that simple.
- Yet we chose in all of our responses to attack. What’s worse, Bill Self in the October/2018 press conference lied. And the NCAA knows it. Self was indignant. And those enforcing the rules know that he was untruthful in his statement of indignation. We also chose … uh, only for the purpose of trying to get Silvio exonerated … to ADMIT (again, for the purposes of the reinstatement) that Adidas was in fact a booster. Just stupidity. Never make that sort of a specific admission. Long, of course, the one of the brilliant decision to fight David Beatty on his contractual payments.
- Ladies and gentlemen, Jeff Long should be fired. He’s the AD. He guides everything the athletic department does. He’s where the buck should stop. Right?
- Ah, but there’s the rub. We hired Jeff Long and guess what? You know what’s coming – He gets more guaranteed money if we go on probation. Unreal. That’s the guy in charge of keeping us off probation. You motivate your AD. You enable your AD to take a destructive path.
- Of course, Bill Self could be the actual leader here and the Long the follower. What happens then if we get hammered and Self was really that leader? His October/2018 statement set the tone. The wrong tone. If he was the leader, the decision maker, and we get hammered, Bill Self must go.
- I said when all of this started that there is a very high risk that this whole deal ends with Bill Self not coaching at Kansas. Anyone feel better now than in October/2018 when pretty much everyone told me that was foolish? If you do feel better, you are (again) ignoring all objective evidence. This is serious. And his job is in jeopardy. Don’t tell me some insider says, oh, he’s good, or that the donors support him. This is deadly serious.
- As mentioned above, how can the NCAA back down now? To back down now would be the ultimate disgrace to the NCAA. We don’t want the group that decides our punishment pissed off and doubling down. But we’ve managed to create that situation. The opposite of brilliant.
- On another note, the quote from the NCAA in the reply has been wildly misinterpreted. The quote - “There is no cause for concern among member institutions as most of their relationships with corporate entities comply with NCAA legislation.” See the word most? That just means 51% or more. That doesn’t mean all. Despite Mike Decoursey saying it’s “preposterous”, it’s really reasonable. So of all the schools that have shoe contracts, all of them, 51% or more did what KU did with Adidas, or close to it? Of course not. Adidas and Nike don’t do the dirty work for Colorado, or Washington, or other nondescript programs. They aren’t answering to those coaches. Bruce Weber isn’t getting that treatment at K-State. I heard an NCAA hoops insider, a recruiting guy, talking about how the shoecos focus their resources on their biggest names. That makes complete sense. We’ve all heard that.
- I saw this mentioned above, referencing DeCoursey, “Mike Decourcy asks the most important question here: How do you claim that adidas is a representative of kansas’ athletic interests but also claim that shoe/apparel companies like nike are not acting in the interest of other universities?” Here’s the answer - The NCAA is not saying that Nike ISN’T acting for other universities. Where have they said they aren’t?
- The booster thing with Adidas should not be minimized. KU was well aware of this interpretation before this transpired. KU sent a memo to businesses related to that exact issues (as is referenced in many kusports.com articles). The rules clearly cover Adidas. I’ve posted the rules. It’s quite easy to see, unless you’re purposefully trying to ignore it. We admitted that Adidas was a booster, as mentioned above. Did Duke, or UK, or another school make that admission? One man goes to jail because he admitted something. Another walks free because he kept his mouth shut. Right?
- We clearly relied upon and requested Adidas to help in recruiting. This is uncontroverted. Again, we go back to what seems to be the bail-out argument many suggest – “well, others do it.” Or, “why aren’t they going after Duke?” That simply won’t cut. Or claiming it’s a “crock.” Or complaining about how unfair all this is? Or really making up a narrative that minimizes everything? Don’t we all know that now?
- I saw the comment about KU and its boosters being in this until the “bitter end.” Remember, that means the end is “bitter.” This should never have been the stance. Ever. Suicide isn’t honorable, not in a cave on Iwo Jima, and certainly not with OUR basketball program. We are clearly THE example. This is the worst case scenario we all feared. And as I said immediately after Bill Self’s misguided response in October/2018, the path we have chosen is a disaster. Now we are facing what could be irreparable harm to our basketball program.
- We have created a situation where the NCAA has nowhere to go but to hammer us. We did that to ourselves. Not saying it’s right, but we did nothing to give the NCAA an out or room to wiggle. We attacked, starting with Self’s foolishness. We claimed the whole thing was frivolous, and that the NCAA’s charges were “misguided, unprecedented, and meritless.” The NCAA now says, after all the briefing, that the violations are “egregious and severe” and that “few facts are not in dispute.” Prepare yourselves.
Or, choose the blue pill.
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The hammer might be about to drop on Duke.
Released a little under 2 hours ago from ESPN.
“Attorneys representing Zion Williamson’s former marketing representative and her company have asked the New Orleans Pelicans star to admit that his mother and stepfather demanded and received gifts, money and other benefits from persons acting on behalf of Adidas and Nike and also from people associated with Duke to influence him to sign with the Blue Devils and to wear Nike or Adidas products.”
The rest of the article goes into the background of the pending lawsuit that’s about to come Zion’s way.
This is about to get real ugly for the NCAA since they cleared Zion after Duke’s “investigation” of Zion’s recruit.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
The hammer might be about to drop on Duke.
Released a little under 2 hours ago from ESPN.
“Attorneys representing Zion Williamson’s former marketing representative and her company have asked the New Orleans Pelicans star to admit that his mother and stepfather demanded and received gifts, money and other benefits from persons acting on behalf of Adidas and Nike and also from people associated with Duke to influence him to sign with the Blue Devils and to wear Nike or Adidas products.”
The rest of the article goes into the background of the pending lawsuit that’s about to come Zion’s way.
This is about to get real ugly for the NCAA since they cleared Zion after Duke’s “investigation” of Zion’s recruit.
And you really think Zion is going to admit to ANYTHING ? he isn’t going to admit to squat - - his Mom & Dad the hell isn’t going to either.
NCAA doesn’t want to touch duke and their little poster boy Coach K - - - surely not Duke, they will do everything in their power to clear Duke – I mean it’s DUKE for GOD Sakes - -it K - nothing to see here they won’t do squat - - never have - - never will
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
The hammer might be about to drop on Duke.
Released a little under 2 hours ago from ESPN.
“Attorneys representing Zion Williamson’s former marketing representative and her company have asked the New Orleans Pelicans star to admit that his mother and stepfather demanded and received gifts, money and other benefits from persons acting on behalf of Adidas and Nike and also from people associated with Duke to influence him to sign with the Blue Devils and to wear Nike or Adidas products.”
The rest of the article goes into the background of the pending lawsuit that’s about to come Zion’s way.
This is about to get real ugly for the NCAA since they cleared Zion after Duke’s “investigation” of Zion’s recruit.
This is a fun quirk in NC law. NC statute says that a SA, defined as someone with remaining eligibility to compete, can sign a contract with a state licensed agent and cancel it within 14 days, no harm no foul. However, it does not mean you get your eligibility back. The agency’s argument is Zion was never an eligible SA to begin with so did not have the ability under the statute to cancel the deal without cause. So seems ripe for discovery for Zion and dook. And using the NCAA’s new authority to use evidence it didn’t collect internally, ripe for sanction. If they want to say KU is at fault for something KU employees had no knowledge of, and that they were actually defrauded, the shoe fits here as well even in the unlikely case that, oh, I don’t know, Jeff Capel who rented a house in Durham he owns to Zion’s family, knew about certain improprieties. Hypothetically of course.
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@HighEliteMajor Wow, that’s quite a read. I’ve been reading the sports pages today and have little hope that any of this turns out other than bad for KU. Multiple years of probation and losses of scholarships seems imminent. Sucks for all of us. But we deserve what’s possibly coming. It will make us feel better at least if Duke gets it too.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
The hammer might be about to drop on Duke.
Released a little under 2 hours ago from ESPN.
“Attorneys representing Zion Williamson’s former marketing representative and her company have asked the New Orleans Pelicans star to admit that his mother and stepfather demanded and received gifts, money and other benefits from persons acting on behalf of Adidas and Nike and also from people associated with Duke to influence him to sign with the Blue Devils and to wear Nike or Adidas products.”
The rest of the article goes into the background of the pending lawsuit that’s about to come Zion’s way.
This is about to get real ugly for the NCAA since they cleared Zion after Duke’s “investigation” of Zion’s recruit.
Good grief. I see Adidas mentioned. That, coupled with the KT statement could add more to our misery. If Adidas gave gifts, etc., who else would it be on behalf of?
@wissox It would make us feel a bit better. Actually quite a bit better. We wouldn’t feel as singled out. But we’re still in the same spot.
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@HighEliteMajor said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
The hammer might be about to drop on Duke.
Released a little under 2 hours ago from ESPN.
“Attorneys representing Zion Williamson’s former marketing representative and her company have asked the New Orleans Pelicans star to admit that his mother and stepfather demanded and received gifts, money and other benefits from persons acting on behalf of Adidas and Nike and also from people associated with Duke to influence him to sign with the Blue Devils and to wear Nike or Adidas products.”
The rest of the article goes into the background of the pending lawsuit that’s about to come Zion’s way.
This is about to get real ugly for the NCAA since they cleared Zion after Duke’s “investigation” of Zion’s recruit.
Good grief. I see Adidas mentioned. That, coupled with the KT statement could add more to our misery. If Adidas gave gifts, etc., who else would it be on behalf of?
@wissox It would make us feel a bit better. Actually quite a bit better. We wouldn’t feel as singled out. But we’re still in the same spot.
Adidas offering $200,000 to Zion coming to KU isn’t a new revelation. This doesn’t change anything for KU.
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Jeez, poor Cleveland State just never can catch a break…
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@mayjay ??
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The DOJ investigated this area and found KU as a victim.
Then the NCAA makes detrimental charges against Kansas, directly conflicting with the findings of the Justice Department.
Now the NCAA considers punishing Kansas. And even if they back off now, they have already damaged KU’s reputation and impacted our program. In other words… harm has already been done!
After we see what the NCAA does next, we drag the NCAA into a federal courtroom regardless. Which side of the story will the judge go with? The DOJ findings? Or the NCAA’s largely unsubstantiated claims?
We are now just waiting to eat their lunch!
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@HighEliteMajor said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Good evening. Hope everyone is well. This is a horrible topic for Kansas basketball fans. Truth is important. Not what we want or hope. But “red pill” stuff. Reality. We are staring into the abyss - some thoughts:
- It is important to remember that “going to Court” is not a wild shoot-out. It’s been suggested by many here. It just isn’t that easy to make a reasonable case here. We should all understand that any court “solution” is a long shot at best. Just remember that - a long shot.
- Think about this - remember in the Adidas trial when the judge excluded certain evidence? Remember when the judge wouldn’t even let the defense call coaches to the stand? Heck, the judge wouldn’t even let the wiretapped call with Townsend into evidence, as the defense wanted. Why? It wasn’t relevant to Gatto’s actions. Gatto’s actions. Just like KU’s actions will be the focus in any lawsuit. It’s just not as simple as saying, “look, all of the top schools operate this way” and calling whatever witnesses you want to call. The fact is, the judge won’t let us subpoena Zion. Or coach K. That sounds nice. But those suggesting it just have no clue.
- Very importantly, going to court is also not one-sided. I’m quite sure the NCAA might choose to place Bill Self under oath in a deposition. Think about that. Federal court may not be quite as attractive as you might think, and it certainly may not be that attractive to Bill Self. Think of every question that the NCAA might want to pose to Bill Self to defend their actions. Right, that wouldn’t be pretty - I mean, since “everyone does it.” This “let’s go to court” thing is not as simple as attacking the NCAA. The NCAA will defend with a vengeance. And they would get what they can’t get now, folks under oath. Bill Self under oath.
- And in a court proceeding, the NCAA could then use subpoenas to defend against KU’s attacks. Think about that.
- Even if the NCAA’s perceived selective enforcement was really an issue, the NCAA can easily simply respond and state that they would certainly act if there was proof against other schools that was similar to the proof against Kansas. That the DOJ investigation uncovered information that they wouldn’t have been able to develop. That they have limited resources. And that the supposed acts of other schools is irrelevant as to whether Kansas violated rules. KU would have still violated the rules.
- It would be quite obvious to any judge that this circumstance has not arisen before, meaning this extensive a criminal prosecution, and thus there is no precedent to suggest it has handled others similarly situated, differently.
- Further, and I said this very early on – just because others have committed a crime and didn’t get caught, or the police can’t develop the evidence, doesn’t mean that the one guy that gets caught isn’t going to jail. We hear that a lot now.
- In any court action, the NCAA will correctly say that they have the right to administer “justice” under its governing authority. The NCAA is the representative of the schools. The schools are the shareholders, so to speak, and they make the rules. KU is a shareholder. This is not a debatable item.
- I’m just saying that’s the way it is. This is classic “red pill” stuff.
- I’ve read the “scorched earth” suggestion. It is really not a practical nor advisable solution to go “scorched earth” now, in my opinion. That is, it won’t help. Again, I think some think that this “going to court” thing is just a wide open forum to level accusations. Lawyers can’t do that in court. Lawyers get sanctioned. It’s why during proceedings lawyers are smart and offer “no comment” or a vague discussion of having trust in the process. “Scorched earth” is much better as a persuasive tool to coerce a more reasonable approach from the NCAA. “Scorched earth” as vengeance does us no good. We still lose.
- Early on I think many of you will recall that I suggested that we threaten to “burn it down” when confronted by the NCAA’s approach to punishing us while they know that others are doing the same thing. I suggested that we surely know where the bodies are buried - e.g., what others have been paid, by whom, and how much. This was not a popular suggestion. My thought was to very aggressively persuade the NCAA not to drop the hammer, because if they did, we would spill all the dirty laundry. Zion. Ayton. Everything we know. Call it an open letter to NCAA members that gets leaked. Whatever. But to coerce us out of this mess. It seems like that ship has passed. And out of court, call it “scorched earth” or “burn it down”, it should be in play.
- A point of concern - How can the NCAA back down now? “Egregious” and “severe.” Have you ever heard that before from the NCAA? We chose to attack. We chose this path. How can they NOT hammer us now?
- Our strategy is and has been a complete disaster. Unmitigated disaster – as it appears right now. This reply by the NCAA was the worst possible news we could have gotten. As a KU basketball fan, I’m disgusted by the incompetence of our leadership. And this isn’t Monday morning quarterbacking. I’ve said this all along.
- Do I believe Bill Self is ultimately the boss? I do. The Godfather in a positive sense. A guy whose ring we all should kiss – for his BB contributions. But I also believe that if the AD told Bill Self before that October/2018 disastrous press conference that we needed to be less confrontational, and that others advised the same thing, Bill Self is smart enough to listen. I also believe that if the AD was forceful about being conciliatory, that would have been heeded.
- You might recall that I suggested at the time that we be contrite, that we acknowledge issues, be supportive of the NCAA and its goals, and cooperate. Not roll over. But pledge to address the issues, be transparent, and not deny Adidas’ role. Show that we were working within the process. Again, I’m not sure I had one person that agreed with me. And I acknowledge that cooperation doesn’t always mean you skate.
- But many followed Bill Self’s unfortunate lead from October/2018. They took comfort in the fact that if Bill Self was defiant, there must be good cause. The middle finger to the NCAA so many crowed about. Well, Bill Self is not as brilliant as many seem to think. He should really stick to coaching basketball.
- Then, this “brilliant” man, together with our AD, think this whole Snoop Dog thing is a good idea with the money guns and ill-conceived announcement will Self in the big gold chain. Bill Self then feigned ignorance after Late Night. Again, how many here cheered all of that? Use your brain.
- The fact is, this reply from the NCAA shows that there are petty folks in the enforcement division that get personally offended. The exact thing I was concerned about. You don’t attack the folks that decide your punishment. You don’t use inflammatory language. You massage your denial. The language used by the NCAA was strong and intended to shove it back in our faces. You’d hope that folks in positions of enforcing rules (or laws) would not be like that, but they are. Same with prosecutors in criminal cases. Offend them and they can and will make your life hell. Why? They really answer to no one. They have a monolithic client and they have unfettered authority. They have power and they get satisfaction in exerting it. It’s that simple.
- Yet we chose in all of our responses to attack. What’s worse, Bill Self in the October/2018 press conference lied. And the NCAA knows it. Self was indignant. And those enforcing the rules know that he was untruthful in his statement of indignation. We also chose … uh, only for the purpose of trying to get Silvio exonerated … to ADMIT (again, for the purposes of the reinstatement) that Adidas was in fact a booster. Just stupidity. Never make that sort of a specific admission. Long, of course, the one of the brilliant decision to fight David Beatty on his contractual payments.
- Ladies and gentlemen, Jeff Long should be fired. He’s the AD. He guides everything the athletic department does. He’s where the buck should stop. Right?
- Ah, but there’s the rub. We hired Jeff Long and guess what? You know what’s coming – He gets more guaranteed money if we go on probation. Unreal. That’s the guy in charge of keeping us off probation. You motivate your AD. You enable your AD to take a destructive path.
- Of course, Bill Self could be the actual leader here and the Long the follower. What happens then if we get hammered and Self was really that leader? His October/2018 statement set the tone. The wrong tone. If he was the leader, the decision maker, and we get hammered, Bill Self must go.
- I said when all of this started that there is a very high risk that this whole deal ends with Bill Self not coaching at Kansas. Anyone feel better now than in October/2018 when pretty much everyone told me that was foolish? If you do feel better, you are (again) ignoring all objective evidence. This is serious. And his job is in jeopardy. Don’t tell me some insider says, oh, he’s good, or that the donors support him. This is deadly serious.
- As mentioned above, how can the NCAA back down now? To back down now would be the ultimate disgrace to the NCAA. We don’t want the group that decides our punishment pissed off and doubling down. But we’ve managed to create that situation. The opposite of brilliant.
- On another note, the quote from the NCAA in the reply has been wildly misinterpreted. The quote - “There is no cause for concern among member institutions as most of their relationships with corporate entities comply with NCAA legislation.” See the word most? That just means 51% or more. That doesn’t mean all. Despite Mike Decoursey saying it’s “preposterous”, it’s really reasonable. So of all the schools that have shoe contracts, all of them, 51% or more did what KU did with Adidas, or close to it? Of course not. Adidas and Nike don’t do the dirty work for Colorado, or Washington, or other nondescript programs. They aren’t answering to those coaches. Bruce Weber isn’t getting that treatment at K-State. I heard an NCAA hoops insider, a recruiting guy, talking about how the shoecos focus their resources on their biggest names. That makes complete sense. We’ve all heard that.
- I saw this mentioned above, referencing DeCoursey, “Mike Decourcy asks the most important question here: How do you claim that adidas is a representative of kansas’ athletic interests but also claim that shoe/apparel companies like nike are not acting in the interest of other universities?” Here’s the answer - The NCAA is not saying that Nike ISN’T acting for other universities. Where have they said they aren’t?
- The booster thing with Adidas should not be minimized. KU was well aware of this interpretation before this transpired. KU sent a memo to businesses related to that exact issues (as is referenced in many kusports.com articles). The rules clearly cover Adidas. I’ve posted the rules. It’s quite easy to see, unless you’re purposefully trying to ignore it. We admitted that Adidas was a booster, as mentioned above. Did Duke, or UK, or another school make that admission? One man goes to jail because he admitted something. Another walks free because he kept his mouth shut. Right?
- We clearly relied upon and requested Adidas to help in recruiting. This is uncontroverted. Again, we go back to what seems to be the bail-out argument many suggest – “well, others do it.” Or, “why aren’t they going after Duke?” That simply won’t cut. Or claiming it’s a “crock.” Or complaining about how unfair all this is? Or really making up a narrative that minimizes everything? Don’t we all know that now?
- I saw the comment about KU and its boosters being in this until the “bitter end.” Remember, that means the end is “bitter.” This should never have been the stance. Ever. Suicide isn’t honorable, not in a cave on Iwo Jima, and certainly not with OUR basketball program. We are clearly THE example. This is the worst case scenario we all feared. And as I said immediately after Bill Self’s misguided response in October/2018, the path we have chosen is a disaster. Now we are facing what could be irreparable harm to our basketball program.
- We have created a situation where the NCAA has nowhere to go but to hammer us. We did that to ourselves. Not saying it’s right, but we did nothing to give the NCAA an out or room to wiggle. We attacked, starting with Self’s foolishness. We claimed the whole thing was frivolous, and that the NCAA’s charges were “misguided, unprecedented, and meritless.” The NCAA now says, after all the briefing, that the violations are “egregious and severe” and that “few facts are not in dispute.” Prepare yourselves.
Or, choose the blue pill.
… But how do you really feel?
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@drgnslayr Remember, the DOJ does not govern the NCAA.
The NCAA did not say we were the victim. They have never said or signed off on the concept that we are a victim. That seems to be a point that many are confused on. It’s very important.
The DOJ created a fiction to support their prosecution. Of course, the schools were not the victims. I think we all know that. But again, the NCAA is not party to that definition anyway.
It should also highlight why filing a lawsuit has its limits in scope. In the criminal case (the KU case would be civil), the judge would not let the defense attorneys really probe that “victim” identification. The DOJ used the “schools” as the institution and not the individuals that were acting on its behalf – such as the coaches. Just pointing out what can be a limited scope of a court proceeding.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@HighEliteMajor said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
The hammer might be about to drop on Duke.
Released a little under 2 hours ago from ESPN.
“Attorneys representing Zion Williamson’s former marketing representative and her company have asked the New Orleans Pelicans star to admit that his mother and stepfather demanded and received gifts, money and other benefits from persons acting on behalf of Adidas and Nike and also from people associated with Duke to influence him to sign with the Blue Devils and to wear Nike or Adidas products.”
The rest of the article goes into the background of the pending lawsuit that’s about to come Zion’s way.
This is about to get real ugly for the NCAA since they cleared Zion after Duke’s “investigation” of Zion’s recruit.
Good grief. I see Adidas mentioned. That, coupled with the KT statement could add more to our misery. If Adidas gave gifts, etc., who else would it be on behalf of?
@wissox It would make us feel a bit better. Actually quite a bit better. We wouldn’t feel as singled out. But we’re still in the same spot.
Adidas offering $200,000 to Zion coming to KU isn’t a new revelation. This doesn’t change anything for KU.
You are correct . What if it’s probed further (more info)? That’s what I was referring to (in part). The more info that comes out could connect dots or provide more info, that is, coaches that were part of that process (KT, for example). But I had never heard of the gifts being given.
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@Marco … sick to my stomach about all of this.
One hope is that more info starts coming out against others, the NCAA considers that slaying multiple blue bloods (or big fish) with this is not a wise business decision, they have a roundtable, and make an announcement about how widespread it is, that they are moving forward, everyone on notice, limited punishment, etc.
An initial approach that highlighted the widespread nature in CBB by KU with some sort of regret, transparency, commitment to fix the issue at KU, could have lent itself to that possible (albeit remote) type of conclusion – not backing the NCAA into a corner with little room for compromise.
But we get Duke in this, maybe another, you never know.
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I realize the DOJ does not govern the NCAA directly. It is the overall police over private institutions of this size.
However… because the NCAA has such a large impact on America, the DOJ is involved with more investigative situations. If the NCAA was dismantled, it would fall into the hands of our federal government and the DOJ would be more directly involved.
Right, the NCAA never agreed we are a victim. The DOJ investigation came to that conclusion and my comment is that will be heavily weighed in a federal courtroom. I think it will be THE overwhelming piece of evidence helping Kansas in their federal case.
Most federal court cases do not have the luxury of a DOJ investigation. As you mentioned, the DOJ was involved in a criminal case while the potential case I’m discussing is a civil case. The conclusion found by the DOJ is that Kansas was a victim. Typically, that opens the door for Kansas to seek damage reparations in a civil courtroom.
Where the NCAA erred is after the DOJ concluded their case, they came in and persecuted Kansas based on a mythical story. Unless they were able to produce evidence beyond the bite of a federal indictment it appears they have made a grave mistake by mugging a victim (Kansas).
Kansas just needs to remain quiet and let the NCAA continue to dig their own grave. Perhaps the burden of proof within the NCAA system always falls on the school, coach, athlete… but in a federal courtroom, the burden of proof will fall on the NCAA to substantiate their charges.
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@drgnslayr I like the idea of searching for a way out. But we’re in quite a box. Remember, the DOJ conclusion is based on the “institution”, not the program. The program could be rogue. It’s just a part of the university. It’s not the university.
When this all started I said that under the DOJ theory, they could/should prosecute coaches, players, family members, guardians – all those that were part of the theoretical conspiracy to defraud institution. I mentioned my concern that the apparently “pristine” coach could be in the DOJ’s crosshairs. Under the DOJ theory, they could have filed charges against all those categories. But they chose the shoeco folks. Selective prosecution. A show is all it was. The HBO special on the Scheme about Christian Dawkins showed the frame job. This was an abusive prosecution. We suspected that early on. For show.
This is very important because I think it could influence your view on this: The DOJ “conclusion” – meaning the fiction created to support prosecution that KU is a “victim” – does not create a legal basis for a civil lawsuit. That is really not even evidence in a civil case. The judge might even exclude evidence of the third party’s convictions (Gassnola) as it would be prejudicial and irrelevant to the civil claims. A prosecutor’s opinions or theory of prosecution is not the basis for a civil claim.
But, again, KU (the institution) can be the victim while it’s employees (Self, KT, etc) violate NCAA rules subjecting the institution’s athletic programs to punishment.
The burden of proof in a civil matter would not fall on the NCAA to “substantiate their charges.” They are a private organization following their rule, with authority given by their member institutions. The burden in a civil suit would be on KU – the one filing the suit.
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@HighEliteMajor The NCAA did not perform due diligence on Zion Williamson. They accepted the results of Duke’s internal investigation without question.
There are punishments for KU that I will not argue against because they happened. KU vacating the Silvio games in '17-'18 is probably going to happen and I won’t argue that one. Kurtis Townsend not coaching at KU beyond this upcoming season is realistic as much as his name was attached to Gassnola.
I don’t think Self is in danger because there’s not enough to hit him with a show-cause. Maybe a suspension, but that’s it.
Billy Preston not playing a game for KU is going to save them from a lot of punishment. The payment happened, probation there seems appropriate since Preston never played a regular season game.
The biggest part of the NCAA’s case against KU is the reason this thing will end up in federal court if they attempt to drop the hammer on KU. Gassnola and Adidas being declared boosters of KU will not hold up and should not hold up. Let us not forget the reason why KU declared them boosters. It was done because the NCAA asked KU to do so in order to move the Silvio DeSousa reinstation case forward. KU’s compliance with an NCAA request then being used against them is going to come back and bite the NCAA in the ass in the end. This is the particular ruling that if the NCAA insists on standing by, should trigger KU to go full scorched earth in trial and expose the levels and depth of corruption at the youth level in the Adidas, Nike, and Under Armour leagues and tournaments. This would be best done by taking statements from Adidas, Nike, and Under Armour runners talking about their business practices and how they steer players to certain universities. The reason for this would be to force the NCAA into one of three decisions, two of which would be good for KU. First option, they back off on the naming of corporate partners as boosters and remove that from the list of violations against KU. Should the NCAA remain steadfast in their resolve to keep calling corporate partners boosters, there’s two ways that decision goes. Either they address the corruption and hit the reset button through reforming their rules or they punish everyone that’s identified by witness testimony and statements in regards to grassroots corruption.
The Zion Williamson lawsuit will be nothing but positive for KU. An admission of NCAA violations is going to come from this at some point in the near future which will help KU in the long run. Either the NCAA hammers Duke for lying to the NCAA which softens the blow for Kansas or the NCAA goes soft on Duke and gives KU ammo for the eventual federal case that the NCAA is unfairly targeting KU which would have much more merit in that scenario.
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@HighEliteMajor said in NOA response from KU discussion:
But, again, KU (the institution) can be the victim while it’s employees (Self, KT, etc) violate NCAA rules subjecting the institution’s athletic programs to punishment.
I agree with you that this is the possibility. However, a jury looked at the evidence and if the jury believed Self, KT, etc. were participating with Gassnola, etc., then how does the DOJ have a case to convict those guys? It was based on the premise that the universities were defrauded. If agents of the school, those directing the basketball program were directing Gassnola, etc., I have no idea how you prove that a university was defrauded? I’m not saying there aren’t any violations that couldn’t/shouldn’t stick, but think rulings should be consistent. If sworn testimony under oath says KU, Self, etc. didn’t know and the jury went along with that, then I don’t think a NCAA ruling should then be able to hammer you and say you did know.
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@hawkfan01 There’s two different governing bodies at work here and each have their own set of rules of governance. It’s not illegal for a school to pay a recruit to attend their university. That school will never face any legal consequences for that action because they didn’t violate any local, state, or federal laws. That action does violate NCAA rules and makes the school subject to punishment under NCAA rules.
In KU’s case, money changed hands to influence a player to attend KU, that’s an NCAA violation regardless of a DoJ ruling. The defrauding of KU was determined by the DoJ because they ruled that the money changing hands to influence recruits to come to KU occurred without KU’s knowledge. Whether that’s reality or not is another story, but that’s what the court determined at this time. We’ll probably find out if that’s reality whenever KU takes the NCAA to court following the NCAA’s issuance of punishments against KU.
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@hawkfan01 You are right. You’re being logical. The prosecution was not logical. The NCAA, though, unfortunately, is being logical.
I’m not saying it’s right or should have been done, but that’s how the government made their case.
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https://twitter.com/Andrew__Slater/status/1258560279744598017
Not related to KU, but NCAA in general.
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@BShark said in NOA response from KU discussion:
https://twitter.com/Andrew__Slater/status/1258560279744598017
Not related to KU, but NCAA in general.
Always speaking the real
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@BShark said in NOA response from KU discussion:
https://twitter.com/Andrew__Slater/status/1258560279744598017
Not related to KU, but NCAA in general.
That’s the type of statement that can begin the process of real reform in college athletics because it redefines what a student athlete is. It does appear that real reform is happening based on the recent NCAA proposal to allow students to profit off of their likeness and to do endorsement deals and personal appearances.
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If colleges make the bad choice to bring athletes on campus but tell other students to stay home it’ll send exactly the wrong message about “amateurism.”
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@FarmerJayhawk My body is very ready though. I kinda hope it happens. And I mean for safety reasons it very well might have to.
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@HighEliteMajor I was intrigued by your comment indicating the possibility of the NCAA using some testimony from the federal trial but disavowing other testimony that may undermine its case against KU.
The reason I am intrigued is that I think that if the NCAA does this, they will indeed hand a federal lawsuit to KU on a silver platter. The NCAA may govern its owm members by its own rules and procedures. I have discussed for what seems like years how the courts will defer to private adjudicatory processes that are directed to voluntary members of an organization (which you also have discussed). So long as an organization follows its own rules (which must include notice, the right to be heard, and some type of appeal) courts keep their hands off. Churches, lodges, etc all administer their proceedings largely unfettered. It is also really what underlies the general legislative and common law deference to arbitrations.
There is one exception, however, that the NCAA could easily stumble into. First, a general observation: let’s remember that the use by the NCAA of evidence from federal criminal trials has never been tested anywhere. In virtually all penalty types of proceedings, using testimony from a third party against the subject of the proceeding is usually allowed only when the subject of the proceeding had a chance to cross-examine or otherwise participate (whether they availed themselves of it or not). It is entirely likely in my mind that a court faced with the notion of use of outside testimony against a party that had no ability to participate in that proceeding would consider this as a case of first impression potentially impacting hundreds–thousands, including D2 and D3–of schools. The huge importance of ensuring that the NCAA’s rules passed a fundamental test of private adudicatory due process would absolutely, in my mind, guarantee a willingness by a court to take the case.
But secondarily, this case itself would beg for review if the NCAA chose to use their rules by cherry picking which evidence from a court case to use. It is axiomatic that the NCAA developed the rule to get to things it otherwise would miss since it has no subpoena power. I think courts could easily say that there is nothing more arbitrary than excising disfavorable evidence while trumpeting the favorable. Courts, even if willing to let the NCAA use this novel power after considering that first challenge discussed above, might (I think “would”) decide that the NCAA can only use evidence that is specifically and conclusively established as a finding in the prior case. Evidence that is extraneous to a guilty finding should not be used because it may well not have been the result of a judicial or jury finding.
Example: Agent is on trial for providing drugs to get Student A to sign a representation contract in high school. Student A testifies that he and Agent invited classmate Student B to dinner and did drugs later. Agent is found guilty. NCAA wants to impose initial eligibility sanction on Student B for accepting value (meal and drugs) from Agent, and tries to introduce Student A’s testimony to prove it.
I think a court would say it violates fundamental fairness to allow the use of extraneous evidence like that. A judge or jury could have found Agent guilty while disbelieving that Student B was involved.
Anyway, if the NCAA tries to disregard the testimony that KU did not know of the payments, I think the door is wide open.
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@HighEliteMajor I think I’ve got the TLDR version (I actually read most of it… great job outlining your perspective):
Justice isn’t fair. To think that the allegations are about fairness is wrong. This is about holding a member accountable, which the NCAA is well-equipped to do.
Is that basically the idea?
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
If colleges make the bad choice to bring athletes on campus but tell other students to stay home it’ll send exactly the wrong message about “amateurism.”
There’s several ways to look at this. Before I get to that though, I want to say that is coming from the lense that the NCAA doesn’t give two
about college football because they don’t profit off of college football. ESPN owns the playoffs and the conferences negotiate their own TV deals. The NCAA will be singing a different time this fall when it’s time for college basketball to start up since that’s where the vast majority of the NCAA’s operating finances come from and they’re going to be desperate in not wanting to miss out on a second straight NCAA Tournament because I’m sure their pocketbook took a huge hit this year and why they tried so hard to find a viable alternative so they could still get their TV money.First of all, the NCAA moving towards the adoption of allowing players to make money off of themselves is a huge step forward for college athletics. That statement @BShark linked to is also significant because it’s another step away from the charade that college athletics is amateur in nature, at least in regards to football and men’s basketball. If that’s the position the NCAA, conferences, and schools want to take, then I have no problem with players coming back before students because nobody is pretending they are student-athletes anymore. They’re being viewed and treated like athletic-students in that case and should have a different set of rules applied to them in that case.
The other side is if those groups want to keep up the charade that these kids are true students first, then I would agree with keeping them away from campuses until everyone else returns as well. If you want to bring in the football players in the summer like normal because of plans to reopen the campus in August/September to students, I wouldn’t have an issue in that case either because that’s standard for programs to get their kids conditioned and ready for the season.
Ideally before the end of the month, you would have the NCAA talk to conference commissioners about their support of the rule change in regards to players profiting off their likeness which basically says these kids are more than just student-athletes now. Then the conference commissioners get on conference call with all of the AD’s and university presidents to to establish how student-atheltes are viewed in their eyes based on the NCAA’s endorsement of players profiting off their image and come to a decision about how the school’s themselves view these athletes in that light.
