Trouble?
-
@FarmerJayhawk The comments on here are not promising. With that said I’m sure most of them just hate KU for being KU.
-
-
HighEliteMajor said:
That’s certainly a strong response.
-
Also I’ve been going over what I can find of the NOA…
This shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone but it did confirm Larry Brown basically gift wrapped Silvio to KU (doesn’t take a big leap to guess he gift wrapped Bruno to Maryland).
-
A quote from Selfs response -
“By the NCAA’s own admission through its public statements early this summer, it’s no secret that there is tremendous pressure on the NCAA to respond to the federal court proceedings involving college basketball … ”
Amen. To paraphrase a line from the movie “A Few Good Men”, they were “bullied into the courtroom. “
-
@Bosthawk love that!
-
They didnt even show up to the court room fyi. Still a good quote
-
I was pleased with Self’s statement. And while all of it could be true it won’t matter. Lawyers and evidence may reduce the penalties but there is very little chance the KU program leaves this battle without penalties.
Not playing Preston doesn’t matter. Sitting De Sousa for a year doesn’t matter. Preston was paid behind KU’s back. De Sousa’s Guardian was paid. In the NCAA’s eyes that’s all the smoking gun they need.
I’m hopeful that KU will fight this to the bitter end as it looks like they are prepared to do.
-
For those that want to read the NOA and haven’t seen it. Here is a link. Apologies if already posted
https://publicaffairs.ku.edu/sites/publicaffairs.ku.edu/files/docs/NOA to KU.pdf
-
@BeddieKU23 Of course there are going to be penalties, but it is not going to be nearly as severe as people are freaking out about. I am guessing it will be a loss in recruiting time / a reduction in scholarships for a couple years, and Self gets 5-10 game suspension. Also, they will be put on probation.
-
Woodrow said:
@BeddieKU23 Of course there are going to be penalties, but it is not going to be nearly as severe as people are freaking out about. I am guessing it will be a loss in recruiting time / a reduction in scholarships for a couple years, and Self gets 5-10 game suspension. Also, they will be put on probation.
I’ll let this play out but I believe the penalties could be more significant in the end. I would be surprised at minimal penalties for both the Program and Self/Townsend. T very well could lose his job
-
@Woodrow What would lead you to conclude we will get what amounts to a slap on the wrist?
We should all look at paragraph 5.b. Three athletic department administrators identified red flags/concerns with Gassnola, but the athletic department took no action.
We were led to believe that the vehicle issue with Preston was a big surprise. Not so much. Staff knew he had the vehicle but it was not registered with the athletic department compliance. Paragraph 5.d.
-
Didn’t Ollie get a show cause penalty and is banned for 3+ years? This could be the end for Self. This could also be just the end of recruiting for a couple years while KU fights the charges. No recourse if you win either, those recruits aren’t coming back.
-
@HighEliteMajor Because the NCAA has over reached here. They are trying to make a statement and example out of Self and KU, and in the long run that is not going to work out for them. I have heard multiple national writers who cover college basketball state that they will not be surprised at all if this ends up in federal court with KU suing the NCAA.
Fans / people over react all the time when seeing things like this. It is not all doom and gloom even though half the fan base thinks it is.
-
@Woodrow I guess I’m not seeing overreaching by the NCAA. If this were Duke and Nike, I’d think the allegations were reasonable based on what we know. I don’t like what I see and I see it as grossly unfair given what we assume other big schools are doing in concert with their shoeco reps. But I’ve yet to see even a whisper of proof on others.
So what is overreaching in your opinion? Or to everyone else, what does anyone else see as overreaching here?
-
@HighEliteMajor whisper https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2019/08/zion-nike-payment-35000-michael-avenatti-alleged-duke-basketball-pelicans-krzyzewski
-
The trouble the NCAA has is that KU never played Preston, sat De Sousa, and Williamson went to a different school. Unless investigations and allegations are coming for other major programs, the NCAA is in a bind. How do you punish KU without investigating Duke? How do you punish KU and Duke without hurting college basketball overall?
The NCAA is dragging itself closer and closer to the abyss, but can’t decide if it will throw itself or its premier programs over the edge, not realizing that they are all handcuffed together anyway.
The only solution is to back away from the abyss. Clearly, that’s not the NCAA’s plan, so everyone will plummet to doom.
-
This sort of feels like a last stand for the NCAA.
Who takes them seriously anymore?
California, under threat that their schools could be banned from post-season play, all but unanimously passed their law that allows players to take money and not lose their scholarship. 20+ more states in the process of drafting a similar bill now.
The NBAPA agents all refused to follow the NCAAs rules for agents.
Will Wade literally talked about how much he paid for a player on the phone. Wade was reinstated and that player played the rest of the season.
Sean Miller has an assistant convicted in the scheme. There is as much evidence against him as anyone, somehow not fired.
Duke conducted an internal investigation, when we all know what got Bagley to North Carolina. We have evidence of Zion being offered by several schools. But they found nothing…
Miami paid Nassir Little. Jim Larrañaga still the coach. And Little played all season at UNC.
Avenatti is singing like a bird with a former AAU coach from California. Says Bol Bol went to Oregon for cash with documentation. Says Ayton went to Arizona for cash with documentation. Says Bagley went to Duke for cash with documentation. Not a peep from those schools.
Wendell Carter Jr. a player for Duke - Parents went to lunch with an agent. That agent, alone, somehow wracked up a $100+ tab on his own. Carter’s parents didn’t even eat… Must have been a hell of a steak.
KU landed two guys who were paid, and went for a third. And we’re denying the hell out of it being our responsibility.
Maryland paid De Sousa and not a word has been spoken about Turgeon in the national media. Much less Maryland coming out and making an official statement.
Collin Sexton only got a 4 game suspension and Avery Johnson finished the season.
Personally, I think KU will and should fight this to the death. I think they SHOULD take it to court. And, on top of the obviously circumstantial evidence presented in the NOA, my argument would be that the NCAA is unable to fairly and broadly enforce the rules and is unable to monitor their member institutions. There were 30+ programs named at the trials. Unless all of them were investigated with the same thoroughness as KU was, they are unable to fairly apply the rules across the board. The NCAA themselves, lack institutional control. I’d argue that they should have known that Apparel sponsors were offering impermissible benefits as much as KU should have known. I’d argue that the NCAA didn’t take control of recruiting until 2018, when they set up rules for AAU events. I’d argue that the commission they put together themselves realized how widespread this was, and that it’s a failure of duty on their part that it took this long to investigate. If they were unwilling to investigate the underbelly of College Basketball until recently, how on Earth is one single member institution supposed to combat it?
The issue is widespread, and that is largely due to the fact that the NCAA has been unwilling to use their resources, which consist of a billion dollars of revenue, to combat impermissible benefits from 3rd parties and protect the “NCAA Collegiate Model.” If they are unwilling to do it, why should KU be? If they cared, there would be 30+ schools under investigation right now. There would be an official NCAA employee working in the compliance department at every single NCAA institution in the country. But there isn’t. Because the NCAA arbitrarily applies the rules when they feel like applying the rules. And they do that after taking no steps to prevent rules from being broken.
I’d love to see the NCAA rules enforcement process get audited by a major accounting firm. They have no controls and no prevention process. They, as the parent company over 300+ institutions, knew that those institutions were essentially “under attack” and prone to corruption with a 3rd party. Yet, their “prevention process” is to simply ask that people who have millions of dollars at stake turn themselves in. And institutions who have tens of millions of dollars at stake to also turn themselves in. It may be the right thing to do. And acting with integrity should be expected from us fans. But the NCAA has a duty to it’s other member institutions to enforce the rules and put in processes that create as even of a playing field as possible. Yet, they don’t, haven’t and won’t.
The NCAA created this issue when they allowed 3rd party money to infiltrate college athletics. And it’s the NCAA’s fault they did nothing to prevent the wide-spread corruption since. They can’t all of a sudden decide they don’t like it when they are the ones who created it…
-
@Kcmatt7 That’s an awesome post … of PHOF dimensions. Great read.
-
Well done, Well Done. You win the internet for today
-
@Kcmatt7 Very well said. Feel like this sums up the way I feel about the whole mess as well.
-
HighEliteMajor said:
@Woodrow What would lead you to conclude we will get what amounts to a slap on the wrist?
We should all look at paragraph 5.b. Three athletic department administrators identified red flags/concerns with Gassnola, but the athletic department took no action.
We were led to believe that the vehicle issue with Preston was a big surprise. Not so much. Staff knew he had the vehicle but it was not registered with the athletic department compliance. Paragraph 5.d.
Dam good points HighElite , I couldn’t agree more. - - You and Beddie make very solid points , theories. - -I’m afraid there are some that just refuse to realize the possibilities of sanctions/penalties .
I mean I know what I have to say here probably won’t make some people here to happy , Some may think I’m full of S - - - - -it’s ok I understand their frustration - - Hell I’m frustrated. We were already frustrated with recruiting , now we know why it sucked
People will or have said well - -if we get hammered by the NCAA then by GOD - - Duke , – North Carolina , - -Arizona , - -Louisville and others better get hammered to - ain’t right. - - Thing is - - I get that m I understand how others feel and think - -I’ve been right there with them - -it sucks
Yet at the end of the day = - - - I don’t give a flying rat’s ass about Duke - - North Carolina – Arizona’s - - The Louisville of the world all I care about is KU the others can go screw themselves -doesn’t effect me about their programs - -The program that effects me is KU
It’s going to be interesting if Coach Self get’s suspended for the year - - -some here don’t seem to think there is no way in hell that will happen - - well as the old Game Day guy says - - Not so Fast my friends - -don’t ever say ever - - again we are dealing with this BS NCAA here. -I think there is a very good chance we vacate wins - get stripped of our final four - - -and possibly even banned from the tourney for a year -it’s ok if you don’t agree - - all I’m saying there is that possibility.
Like High Elite says there were 3 AD Admins here that got ignored - -we are talking multiple level 1 infractions - - The NCAA is looking for a whipping boy - -who better then Ol KU
I tell ya I’m so bummed out with this crap -I’m so afraid that after this year we are going on a free fall for a couple of years -it’s gonna get uglier before it gets better -IF Coach doesn’t get suspended then we are REALLY gonna see his HOF abilities - but at the end of the day – I’ve always been a Jayhawk - - Always will be a Jayhawk - -through and through - -difference between bandwagon fans - -and TRUE FANS - -true fans stick it out - -good times - -AND bad times - -and as always ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
The sooner there is a resolution, even a poor one, the sooner things get back to normal. As long as the ncaa is investigating forget about getting anything consistent in recruiting.
-
Self basically said “Everyone does it” in text.
Self responded: “That’s how ur (sic) works. At unc and Duke”
That defense never works.
-
dylans said:
The sooner there is a resolution, even a poor one, the sooner things get back to normal. As long as the ncaa is investigating forget about getting anything consistent in recruiting.
Unlikely to see a quick resolution. I would expect KU takes most of the 90 days to respond then there’s another waiting period for the NCAA rebuttal and next course of action. Wouldn’t be surprised to see this lingering for the next year. Is that a fair assumption?
-
@BeddieKU23 yes. I seriously doubt anything happens before the b-ball season ends.
Paul Finebaum (loud mouth hack) is expecting Bill Self to lose his job. Says Long isn’t a longtime Jayhawk so expect no loyalty there. Better win a championship this season to keep his job.
Not my take, probably a hot take to grab attention, but it’s an opinion that’s out there.
-
I’m sure others think he could lose his job. It’s not out of the realm of possibility if the allegations stick, they did attack Self in the NOA with everything they had.
I think he’s gasping with the Long thing but I also think he is just generally connecting dots on how things go when new AD’s take over for coaches they didn’t hire. I don’t think the details fit the normal narrative that leads to coaching changes but maybe I’m just seeing things through Crimson & Blue. From everything I’ve heard from rumor to general impression is that Long/Self have a very good relationship and Long has been preparing for the moment to go to war for him and the program.
I guess we’ll see where the AD stands through this as things develop
-
@BeddieKU23 @dylans I would be shocked if Long turns on Self. I firmly believe that Long would not have his job except for Self’s approval. I would suspect that Self required him to kiss the ring prior to his hiring. The issue is not Long in my opinion. It’s the Chancellor, board of regents, egg-heads. Those are the folks that could turn on him pretty easily. Get focused like I did on “honesty and integrity.” Sometimes that is a real consideration. From folks in the proverbial ivory towers, I doubt their sincerity … always. Of course, Long could see the opening to be more powerful here and turn on Self in part because of that. The consolidation of power thing.
And we know that only one person in the room profits from KU getting sanctioned. Mr. Long. I’d like to know the brain surgeon that put that deal together. But from Long’s end, he has the perfect storm – I didn’t do it, I get more money, and I can remove the King. Not saying it happens or that Long even thinks that way. Just discussion.
-
NCAA Mission Statement (according to ncaa.org)
Core Ideology: The NCAA’s core ideology consists of two notions: core purpose - the organization’s reason for being - and core values - essential and enduring principles that guide an organization.
Core Purpose: Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.
Core Values: The Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:
· The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.
· The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.
· The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.
· The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.
· An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.
· Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.
· Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.
** WOW. A mission statement of crap from top to bottom
-
HighEliteMajor said:
@BeddieKU23 @dylans I would be shocked if Long turns on Self. I firmly believe that Long would not have his job except for Self’s approval. I would suspect that Self required him to kiss the ring prior to his hiring. The issue is not Long in my opinion. It’s the Chancellor, board of regents, egg-heads. Those are the folks that could turn on him pretty easily. Get focused like I did on “honesty and integrity.” Sometimes that is a real consideration. From folks in the proverbial ivory towers, I doubt their sincerity … always. Of course, Long could see the opening to be more powerful here and turn on Self in part because of that. The consolidation of power thing.
And we know that only one person in the room profits from KU getting sanctioned. Mr. Long. I’d like to know the brain surgeon that put that deal together. But from Long’s end, he has the perfect storm – I didn’t do it, I get more money, and I can remove the King. Not saying it happens or that Long even thinks that way. Just discussion.
I don’t know why , but something just keeps tugging at me and trying to tell me IF this should happen , then don’t rule out ANYTHING. - -part of that anything and this is the thing for some reason I keep getting this sense - -this gut feeling - -what if Long doesn’t fire him - -BUT what if Coach Self says - - screw this - -Screw the NCAA and just walks? - - says enough of this BS recruiting – we all have heard how it takes quite the tow on people/family - -what if he just says he has had enough of the NCAA and their BS rules and regulations? - -what if they do suspend him and he just kicks rocks - -tries the NBA ?
The thing is what does he have left to accomplish at the College level? - - - Conference Championship? - -Done that - - - - NCAA Title ? - - -Done That - - - Being inducted to the College Hall of Fame ? - - - Done that – Coach of the year ? - - - Done that. - -maybe - - just maybe he is just plain tired of all this NCAA BS - -this is something that makes me wonder - - even if it’s just a small amount? - -Never say Never. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
Elite level post. Best on this topic. Probably the best on this board, regardless of topic, all year.
I don’t think Self loses his job. The only evidence out there is that he let the Adidas guys do what other schools let their chosen apparel provider do. Like I said, everyone is staring down into the abyss. The only way back is for everyone to walk away.
Unless there is something more substantial against Self, this is just going to be a lot of screaming and yelling, but nothing more.
You also have to remember that a KU postseason ban also hurts the Big 12. Each NCAA tournament win is worth a unit. Each team that even makes the tournament receives a unit. A unit was worth $280,300 in 2019, $273,500 in 2018, $265,000 in 2017, $260,500 in 2016, $250,106 in 2015 and $245,500 in 2014. In 2019, KU was worth 2 units. In 2018, KU was worth 5 units. In 2017, KU was worth 4 units. In 2016, KU was worth 4 units, and 2 units each in 2015 and 2014.
That’s $560,600 last year, plus $1,367,500 in 2018, $1,060,000 in 2017, $1,042,000 in 2016, $500,212 in 2015 and $491,000 in 2014.
That’s $5,021,312 over the last six years. Since that is distributed over a six year period, that means each school in the Big 12 will receive $83K+ from KU’s basketball program this year alone. With each unit this year likely approaching $290,000, that’s nearly $5,000 per Big 12 school every year for the next six years for each win KU has in the tournament. Since KU is perennially worth at least two units, that’s an easy 10 grand on the line for the next six years for every school in the conference. A multiple year ban for KU could cost each conference school around $20K or more each year (assuming a two or three year ban). That’s not millions, but it definitely isn’t nothing.
It’s a wonder that every school in the conference isn’t storming the NCAA offices demanding fair treatment for KU. KU gets them paid every March. If the Big 12 is going to lose KU’s unit wins, the ACC should lose Duke (and UNC, and Louisville), the Pac12 should lose Arizona (and USC), the Big 10 should lose Maryland (and Michigan), and the SEC should lose Kentucky (and LSU).
Somehow, though, I don’t think the NCAA is looking forward to March Madness with no Duke, UNC, Kentucky, KU, Louisville, Arizona, USC, Michigan, LSU, etc.
-
Kcmatt7 said:
The NCAA themselves, lack institutional control.
^^^^^ This is the quote.
In an age of broken institutions that operate with double-standards and hypocrisy, the NCAA is a model.
-
Also, the timing of this comes after KU beat Duke three times straight. Could it be that someone’s knickers are in a twist?
oops, was that innuendo?
-
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Now I’m mad and I don’t want Bill Self fired. Parish seems to say what we’ve been saying for years here.
-
If Self is fired over this - I’m checking out. I will have watched my last college basketball game ever. I can do it - I quit a 3 pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey. I quit a case of beer per night (plus other assorted goodies) - cold turkey. When I set my mind to something - it’s done. I’ve been less and less enamored with college basketball the past several years and this would be the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. I hope it’s not the case - but I’m right there on the edge.
-
-
just some insane tidbit to the NCAA - - and sanctions over the years… - - -
According to a article at the Inside Higher Ed.com. this was a 2016 Article - -in a time frame from 2006 through 2015 - -more then a quarter of ALL division 1 College’s - - 43 % of ALL FBS football programs and MORE then HALF of the members from Power 5 Conferences committed MAJOR violations of NCAA rules. - - you hear what I’m saying here - - more then HALF of Power 5 Conference members committed MAJOR violations - -this crap is insane.
16 programs were punished twice during this same time frame - - -AND two of our fellow conference members were punished 3 times during this time frame - - Oklahoma & West Virginia - -the numbers of this is kind of boggling to me - - I know most of this is with football but still the system is messed up - - -for all these programs to violate like that – over half of your members- -what’s wrong with this picture? - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
Great article by Chad Lawhorn analyzing why the case involves the booster issue, etc.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2019/sep/24/analysis-understanding-what-matters-and-what-doesn/
-
@Crimsonorblue22 here’s a link found in a comment. How reputable is it? https://www.oregonlive.com/business/page/the_loyalty_game.html
-
nuleafjhawk said:
If Self is fired over this - I’m checking out. I will have watched my last college basketball game ever. I can do it - I quit a 3 pack a day cigarette habit cold turkey. I quit a case of beer per night (plus other assorted goodies) - cold turkey. When I set my mind to something - it’s done. I’ve been less and less enamored with college basketball the past several years and this would be the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. I hope it’s not the case - but I’m right there on the edge.
I would hate to see that… my friend!
Join me in the upcoming battle. The battle to turn KU into the first heavy-duty developmental team in America!
Receiving a swift kick in the teeth from the NCAA might even help us get this rolling!
We need to be done with the prima donna players, once and for all! We need NONE of that business. Enough of the fool’s gold!
We need coaches that know how to coach. Our assistants are recruiters and babysitters. I like our entire staff, but we need wholesale changes for what I’m talking about.
Just imagine seeing players playing the game the way it was intended. Imagine seeing players get out there and scrap their arses off! Imagine players knowing how to seal the boards, pop out over screens, hedge properly, and hustle like their life depended on it! Imagine March coming around and we go on a slaughter of teams full of high draft picks. Imagine being in the hunt every single year! Imagine 4 and 5 year players that really produce.
It’s all there just waiting for the right program to see it. Jay Wright sees it. We are positioned better than him. I’d rather be Kansas than Nova.
-
@drgnslayr Copy and Paste!
-
-
I keep coming back to this - If everyone is doing it, then everyone knows, that everyone includes Bill Self, and thus Bill Self has blatantly lied. The everyone could be a limited definition, say just the top 15ish programs. Or a broad definition. Doesn’t matter. We’re part of “everyone” as a top program. “Doing it” would be the shoeco folks (Nike, Adidas, UA) providing benefits for kids to attend certain schools.
But if everyone isn’t doing it, then we’re still left with allegations that no one is really denying – we’re only suggesting that we shouldn’t be punished for the allegations related to Gassnola/Adidas.
What am I missing here?
If those are the two choices, neither choice seems to end well.
How is it not a choice between the two.
-
Everyone’s doing it. Selective prosecution. Nobody wants to see how the sausage is made.
I’ve been watching more NBA the last few years. The key is to watch the games and ignore ALL off the court stuff.
-
The overwhelming fact is: the NCAA had absolutely zero choice after the FBI investigation broke. No choice at all… To save the last tiny sliver of their legitimacy and “integrity “they had no choice. As far as the explosion of money in college athletics, the train has left the station long long ago and as KCMatt has said, it is way too late to bring the train back. The NCAA needed to figure out a better more effective way to address this a long time ago in order to have any hope at all of keeping it in check. Sadly Adidas, far behind Nike, went and got the Watergate burglars in Gatto and Gassnola and the rest, and they got busted.
KU Unequivocably should fight this to the bitter end and with every resource they have.
We all know that despite the inevitable evolution of college athletics and the obscene amount of money that is now involved, Kansas basketball is bigger than all of this. Kansas basketball is a unique program, and it is bigger than this investigation, it is bigger than Bill Self, it is bigger than Adidas. We all understand this because of all the years we watched many senior nights, read Landon Lucas’s article about the true depth of the specialness of KU nation, countless examples of what is awesomely magical about The storied program of Kansas basketball. We will get through this. And who knows what we will find at the end of this journey. In all honesty, I am optimistic. Rock chalk
-
@drgnslayr You’re a good cheerleader!
-
I don’t think Self loses his job but its too early to say its not a possibility either. I believe he has the support of the AD however what about the support (as @HighEliteMajor) mentions from the Chancellor & Board of Regents. It’s too early to tell what position they may fall on and what interests they may have to protect for the greater good of the program when this is all over.
There was a Giant Red Flag hanging over Billy Preston’s head for most of his High School career and they still signed him. Gassnola was a known fraud and a high liability to have around the program. These are decisions that have come back to bite them now.
-
I question why any of our coaches held conversations with any shoecos directly. How can that be viewed as anything but negative. It puts into question our argument that we did everything possible to stay clear from corruption. I addressed the optics here. Now on to the content. Prosecution should involve more than speculation. If speculation prosecutes then Duke is guilty for signing Zion… another recruit that seems to help paint a negative portrait of Kansas.
-
HighEliteMajor said:
I keep coming back to this - If everyone is doing it, then everyone knows, that everyone includes Bill Self, and thus Bill Self has blatantly lied. The everyone could be a limited definition, say just the top 15ish programs. Or a broad definition. Doesn’t matter. We’re part of “everyone” as a top program. “Doing it” would be the shoeco folks (Nike, Adidas, UA) providing benefits for kids to attend certain schools.
But if everyone isn’t doing it, then we’re still left with allegations that no one is really denying – we’re only suggesting that we shouldn’t be punished for the allegations related to Gassnola/Adidas.
What am I missing here?
If those are the two choices, neither choice seems to end well.
How is it not a choice between the two.
I don’t give a rat’s ass if EVERYONE is doing it theory - - I only care about KU. - -so if everyone was to step o a land mine - -does that mean we should step on one too? - - lmao - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
