Ochai
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jayhawkcsg said:
Oops, i forgot to add…do not expect him to come in and be lights out savior from the 3 pt line. that’s a very rare thing as a freshman.
ya that’s what I’m thinking myself. – I sure hope and I’m not saying for people here - -but I SURE the hell hope people don’t think he is going to be some almighty savior - I have read where and makes you think he will be the difference - - -yes being told athletic - -yes a high flyer - - yes a good shooter - -but still needs time , it’s going to be overwhelming for him for awhile , then cold be a vey good addition.
Some people just think sometimes that things such as this all it’s gonna take. - I’m really looking forward to seeing him - for sure will help , all I’m trying to say is that let’s give him some time - -just like Silvio last year - -big difference between practice and game time.
What I’m afraid of is he may come out the first 3-4 games and struggle some and then SOME people start getting frustrated that the kid not putting up big numbers or something like that. - That’s not fair to him at all - glad to have him though/ - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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BeddieKU23 said:
I say start him. We are at home where he would likely play better. See what you got in the first 4 minutes or so. See if he is the spark we need
Nothing to lose giving him a chance based on what we have seen from other options
It will be good for him I think to get his first game time minutes while a home, let him get some of those jitters out of the way at home instead of having to experience that being thrown to the wolves on the road for that. - -I think he will be fine just as long as people realize he won’t be putting up monster numbers. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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BigBad said:
Self is going back to what he knows…DEFENSE!!! I’d bet anything we pressure like crazy. With added guard depth if you dont guard you dont play…Moore and KJ are horrible on D.
We need to learn how to play defense PERIOD 1st before we try and defend like crazy. - If you watch games we have been back doored soooo many times , we give up way to many offensive rebounds where teams get 2-3 shots per possession that sucks – our 3 pt defense is non exsistent - -got possessions where players get lost or just kind of half hearted - -jog out and king like half hearted olay wave a arm up and then back up off the player - -way to many open shots… - -Coach normally - if your not willing to play D - -then your on the bench - -thing is this year if he ran that approach , the whole DAM TEAM would be on the bench so we need to just learn how to play defense - -any kind of defense 1st before worrying about defending like crazy
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I guess the question to me is if Ochai Agbaji, by his addition to this team, as currently built (i.e., no Silvio, no Doke) make this team a Final Four team?
If yes, burn the redshirt and get him in the rotation.
If no, keep the redshirt and let him be a workhorse for a Final Four team down the road.
I think Agbaji is good, and can get better. I think he makes this years team marginally better. But better is relative.
Let’s say you believe without Agbaji, this year’s team is an 83 on a scale of 1-100. With Agbaji they move up to 84 or 85. He has, by definition, made the team “better”. However, let’s say that the typical team that you expect to get to the Final Four is an 88. Yes, Agbaji made this team better, but he didn’t raise the level all the way to Final Four/National Champion caliber.
Now, you can say that this team, as currently built is an 85 already, and that Agbaji adds 4 points to the total, getting them to 89. In that scenario, I agree completely that its worth it. If, on the other hand, you think this team is just an 80, unless Agbaji adds 8 points to that total, it’s not worth it.
Part of my argument for that is that he’s already missed a significant portion of the season. KU has played 14 of their 31 expected regular season games. He’s missed almost half the season. If he’s not ready to play rotation minutes immediately (literally immediately, like ready to play anywhere from 12-25 minutes TONIGHT), then he will have missed basically half the season. Is half a season of Agbaji now worth sacrificing a full season later?
That’s what I keep coming back to. The benefit of now versus the benefit of the long run. I think Agbaji is good and can help along the margins. I think he can handle the physical play. I think he could provide a boost offensively. I think he can be a physical defender that guards 3 positions. All of those things move the needle to make a team better. Had Agbaji been available from day one, I would have had no problem with that because I think he’s ready to play D1 (presuming 100% health, which has to be assumed, otherwise this entire discussion is insane).
But if you pull Agbaji’s redshirt, this had better be a Final Four team because you are making an All-In type move and that’s the only way you can make it pay off. Pulling his redshirt for half a season that ends with a S16 or even E8 exit would be a waste. You’re not pulling (or shouldn’t be pulling) his redshirt to win the Big 12. That’s a waste. Pulling his redshirt is about national championship aspirations. Approaching it any other way isn’t considering the cost.
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jayhawkcsg said:
@DanR Always possible, but it could also mean that players like KJ and Charlie see less time on the floor. If the “new” emphasis seems to be on defense, well there goes Charlie.
answer me this batman - -how can KJ possibly play any LESS MINUTES? - -I think people might be just a little to hard on KJ for the amount of time he HAS been on the court.
can’t be that bad - put up pretty decent numbers at Memphis , - -now I sure the hell ain’t saying he needs to see major minutes BUT he could see some more then he is getting - -hard for a player to get in any kind of rhythm when so sporadic minutes - he sure in the hell isn’t any worse then Vick when he does his disappearing acts - you ain’t telling me Vick is any better on the defensive end - Vick SUCKS. - -KJ goes to the boards well - - Ahh I’m getting off the subject wandering all over the place - I’m just looking forward to better play - - really don’t care who it is - just want us to get better. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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DanR said:
@jayhawkcsg I’d be OK with more D, less charlie. I honestly can’t tell what KJ brings.
Me neither. See that’s what I’ve been trying to say too I just don’t think really KJ has been given enough game time to make a real true judgement of what he can do.
All I know from his time in Memphis he had pretty decent numbers , he looks to me anyways like he has a decent looking shot -may be a bad on defense - -but hell who in the hell on this team IS a good defender other then Marcus right? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Really good post.
I guess we are left to trust Self and the player here. They talked about burning the redshirt now after 14 games and they feel its in the best interest of both parties to do so. From the comments it sounds like he will not only suit up but will play immediately and who knows what that role will be, it could be 5-10 minutes or a major role… We just don’t know yet. I think they are interested to see what his addition does for the team, not just what it does for Ochai individually. Still a lot of basketball left to play.
I think we know at this point this team isn’t F4 caliber but it doesn’t mean we won’t get there with some luck or this team putting things together down the stretch. Losing Doke with no return and not having Silvio likely for the season drops the ceiling of this team. We have good wins against good teams but our last impression of this team is a dismal performance in which a lot of things went bad without both guys mentioned above. I doubt we play that poorly tonight which could bring us back up again to an optimistic level. We seem to go through this every year at some point.
I think having a player available is better then not taking the chance. Ochai had to decide that was in his best interest. Of course kids want to play. Maybe he gains some confidence from that whole situation. I will admit I’m just trying to stay positive in light of everything. I have my doubts but history says Self usually makes the right call. Maybe in a few weeks we are saying “Ochai Magic”
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DanR said:
Mitch has been pretty terrible this year (SO FAR), like he’s wearing oven mitts. He just can’t hang onto the damn ball after rebounds or post feeds. I’m probably his biggest fan/cheerleader, and I honestly don’t know what to make of his play so far. I hope he shakes the rust off, because he needs to step up and at least set some mean screens.
Oh I don’t know - I think I’d have to challenge you in fan department for Mitch lol - yet like you I wish he was doing better , seems like he has dropped off this season - -regressed some , we do need Mitch like you say , good at the little things p - - - -the dirty work - -taking charges , - -going to the floor - -blocking shots - -but as far as his shooting goes- - it’s just not there - hope he can come around be better when he ais ON THE FLOOR
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dylans said:
I am apparently quicker to give up on a season than Bill. I thought the chemistry sucks and the pieces don’t really fit why throw another part at it? I thought 5th year Ochai would be more valuable than freshman Ochai. I don’t know that my thoughts have changed, but I don’t watch him practice every day. I’m not sure what to think about this deal. Seems shortsighted…Even if it keeps the streak alive. Time will tell.
They were talking on the radio yesterday and they brought up the point in this era, of especially OAD’S not saying that’s what he is but with so many -who really sticks around programs for 5 years anymore - the redshirt isn’t today nearly like what it was in the past. - -I dunno - -guess like you say we will just see I reckon
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Fightsongwriter said:
Did anyone else catch where it said Ochai was practicing with the first unit? Starting tonight???
If so is it Vick riding pine??
Vick is - -what’s the word I’m looking for - - - I guess a real mystery , when he is good - -he is really good - - but when he is bad - -he is really bad - -REALLY BAD - -thing is I mean dam it’s either one of the other - -nothing in between - that’s what frustrates the hell out of me.
I’m not really all that sure that Ochai starts I’m not all that sure about feeling that - might just ad extra pressure to him that he already gonna have - just hope he does well, - -I’m really not to sure just how many minutes we will see him tonight starting , I dunno – -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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cragarhawk said:
@BShark idk, I give that a better long term chance. I think it gives the team the highest ceiling at this point. Otherwise we’re basically saying we’re gonna rely on guys that aren’t good shooters becoming great shooters. I don’t think that happens. Even Vick’s run of lights out performances was (Suns shines on a dogs behind some days) kind of stuff. Things almost always revert to the mean. Love to see it work. But am highly skeptical. If there’s a somewhat positive way of looking at it, I guess for me it’s that idk that we’re gonna be ridiculously great either way. So pick one and go with it I reckon. Lol. Why not
I’m agreeing with you on the 4 out - -I just don’t think we have the shooters this year - -we gonna run a cross a team - -multiple teams going to start running zone on us daring us to shoot from the perimeter shot - -and Dedric will be lucky to touch the ball - they gonna sag in so much - and until we prove we can bring them out , it’s gonna stay that way, and I don’t mean us just hitting a 3 - -here and there we are going to have to prove we can hit it on a pretty regular thing - right now we aren’t doing that - I’m afraid the 4 out and 1 in isn’t going to work that well for us this time round
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If we think KU is a top 10 team with Ochai than you have to play him. The Tournament is crazy. KU could be gifted a chance at a FF like UK and KSU were last year. Whatever gives you the best chance to win right now is the right choice. Predicting 4 years out is almost impossible. Especially with the next NBA CBA and potentail OAD rule changes.
It works two fold. If this team made a run to an EE and lost by 2 but kept Ochai’s redshirt, we might have been asking ourselves, “what if.” But the same will be true if we don’t make a FF this season and in 4 years we were just one piece away from making one then.
I don’t think either decision is bad. But I definitely hate throwing the towel in for a season where you still have a legitimate chance at a FF. Especially if you can land in the Midwest Region and play “home” games all the way through to the FF.
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If Ochai is really good, then he’ll be gone after his junior year anyway. We lost little. If he’s Releford-esque, then we lost the first semester of this season is all. I love the move if he can help now. Further, if we can’t replace him in what would be his fifth season, we’re slipping in recruiting. I sell the 4th year all day long in this climate. Exceptions, of course. But I’m all for it – mainly because Self knows why he wants it done.
Further, there is the possibility that of Ochai plays, and he’s bad for whatever reason, then can fall back on the stress fracture thing and get him the redshirt anyway if he doesn’t go over the max games.
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@BeddieKU23 On the other hand, someone who can actually appear in games is infinitely better than even a reincarnated Chamberlain stuck on the bench. We have been waiting for Sir Silvio to ride in on his white charger, and while his armor, or more accurately, perhaps, his Under Armour, continues to be examined back at the barn, maybe help is riding in from another direction!
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@HighEliteMajor One thing not mentioned about that RS 4th year (apologies if I missed it): That is where the crop of grad transfers come from. I think coaches will RS fewer and fewer players, or, if they have some, they will more quickly cash them in to fill a gap as Self is doing.
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@mayjay - That’s a really good point. Furthers the “don’t worry about the 4th year” thing. I’m more into the here and now, because we don’t know what four years will bring. Heck, selfishly, I might get hit by a bus … win now.
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@HighEliteMajor could they redshirt him again next year or is his redshirt burned even though it was removed?
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@Kcmatt7 Ochai … he made back to back 3s in the 2nd exhibition game. I thought he looked like our most poised freshman out there in the exhibition games. He comes from a very athletic family, and you can feel the confidence ooze from every pore. I like that. The fact they’re looking into other options other than Charlie and KJ is a positive. I don’t know if this turns out to be 4 minutes a game, 14, or 20, but I’m ready to see a new face out there. it’s not like he could do worse than Charlie.
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@approxinfinity They could redshirt him, because this year would count toward his eligibility – 5 seasons to play 4, except for a medical situation after using the initial redshirt.
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At least he will probably look at the basket before shooting, something that Charlie thinks is “optional”
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I am thinking that he must be looking good in practice…better than the other options. Might not be the best for Ochai….but you don’t know. I think this is a sign that they think SDS will not be available. If he can shoot and play decent defense…he is a definite plus to this team. I am worried about his health…stress fractures can be tough to put behind you.
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So what was everyone’s first impression of Ochai last night… He was a game changer. Very exciting to see.
The bigger question is why wasn’t he playing from the beginning. Of course we know the circumstances that created his RS.
I wonder how shocked Self is of his performance. We’ll see if he can play like that on the road at Baylor and other places that will test his poise and mentality.
I know one thing, glad he became a Hawk
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For his first game I was impressed with how well he fit in. Only seen him appear confused once or twice about where he should be which was a concern. I am looking forward to see how he handles a road game.
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I was very impressed with everything he showed last night, but most of all his poise. The moment was not too big for him and he looked like he had been in that moment thousands of times. I think one thing we can expect from him is that he is going to make the right plays and not turn the ball over too at a alarming rate like the rest of this team. Although, they did better last night besides Vick.
His athleticism is off the charts and I think he can guard 1-4 just like Garret. Having two guys like that is invaluable. You could tell that he was not looking for his shot at all last night which you can understand, but I wonder as the season goes on what his shooting % will look like as he gets / takes more shots. There is no doubt in my mind that Self is going to encourage him to be more aggressive on the offensive side of the ball as he gets more games under his belt.
Like @BeddieKU23 said I am wondering why he even red shirted in the first place. I thought the broadcast last night said something about it not being fair to K.J. as far as his minutes go, but maybe I misunderstood that. Fran mentioned it last night and I have seen other people as well say that he is this teams best long term NBA prospect so it is not like he was going to be here for 4 years. For sure not going to be here 5 years so the RS doesn’t make any sense to me.
The only concern I have moving forward as for as Och is concerned is the effect it has on Grimes. I know that Grimes had a little bit of foul trouble last night, but it was clear that Self trusted Och more than Grimes in the late minutes at the end of the game. That’s crazy when you think about it as it was his first game. There is no way this team can make a final 4 run without Grimes taking a huge step forward. Maybe that ship has sailed as it doesn’t look like he has improved much at all as the season has gone on, but hopefully this new development doesn’t hurt his confidence even more.
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It’s too bad recruiting rankings are the be all end all and Ochai wasn’t in the top 100.
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@Woodrow I think the redundancy of having 4 guards on the court (and really 5, as Dedric operates in many ways like a huge guard) should in theory allow people to remain on the court that are struggling with their shot, and not force the shot. If we just have a couple guys at any given time other than Dedric that are shooting well, we’ll be in pretty good shape. Its the same number of shooters as when we had Devonte, Svi, Frank, Jackson, Lucas, and Vick as 6th man in 2016-2017. Generally speaking, 2 to 3 of our guards needed to be shooting well for us to win, with Frank as a constant. With Dedric as a constant, thats 1 or 2 guards that need to shoot well.
So I fully expect one guard’s success to spill over into the next’s.
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I said it before, but self said last night they knew Ochai was good, but he had never seen anyone improve like he has from the beginning of the year til now. Also we were so deep. Did u read what what his mom said? Something about, wow he has really improved! Then he had the stress fracture, didn’t hear anything about that last pm. Must not have been severe if he had time to improve so much.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
I said it before, but self said last night they knew Ochai was good, but he had never seen anyone improve like he has from the beginning of the year til now.
Embiid would like a word. But yes it is impressive.
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@BShark I think it sometimes is overlooked that Embiid was really, really good when he got here. The video we looked at when he signed evidenced incredible skill. It wasn’t the normal dunkfest stuff that some videos are. Ball-handling, footwork, shooting touch. The whole package. But he did take off with the high quality coaching applied to that skill set.
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@BShark maybe he just said he really really improved???
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Agbaji played really, really well last night. If he plays like that going forward, pulling the redshirt was well worth it.
He made an impact on both ends, and his hustle was contagious. In some ways, he’s Marcus Garrett, but a much better shooter. He gives this KU team another weapon.
Credit to Bill Self and staff for seeing that. I was very skeptical, as my posts from yesterday made clear, but Agbaji has a chance to be a big piece on this team, and he does raise the ceiling in a significant way, but also raises the floor because he’s such a well rounded player.
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Agbaji’s jump shot release looks like…Michael Jordan. I am in NO WAY comparing him to Jordan but that is who I thought of.
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Agbaji is another case file for not overreacting to Self signing lower ranked guys early. Not super early, that’s been pretty bad actually. This is why I’m not going to freak out about Self taking guys that are good HS players in their SR year. It also helps when the move isn’t out of desperation. Which Ochai was clearly not initially, as the plan was to RS him. So I’m not worried at all about McBride or Braun, I expect they will be damn good players for KU before they are done.
Side note: Cunliffe, Anrio etc…were not good HS players. Also Cunliffe was a transfer obviously, and I’d love to get away from transfers for the most part.
@HighEliteMajor Embiid definitely wasn’t a scrub, but by the end before his injury he was worlds better than the start of the year.
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BShark said:
Side note: Cunliffe, Anrio etc…were not good HS players. Also Cunliffe was a transfer obviously, and I’d love to get away from transfers for the most part.
Me too!
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I can’t spell or pronounce this dude’s name - first, or last. Could we come up with an appropriate nickname?
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@nuleafjhawk like chai tea, o chai
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@nuleafjhawk Bill calls him Och
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I call him Stud!
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@Woodrow Hopefully, our opponents will be calling him OUCH.
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BShark said:
Side note: Cunliffe, Anrio etc…were not good HS players. Also Cunliffe was a transfer obviously, and I’d love to get away from transfers for the most part.
Odd fact, Cunliffe and Adams both graduated from the same high school (Rainier Beach in Seattle). CJ Giles and Roderick Stewart also went to that school.
Given those names, its no surprise that Rainier Beach is a perennial state power in Washington, winning or playing for the state title just about every season.
Looking first at Adams, he led the state of Washington in scoring as a sophomore, junior and senior. He led two different schools to state titles while in high school. Averaged 21 points, 6 rebounds and 5 assists per game as a senior. That’s a darn good player.
Cunliffe averaged 21/9/3 as a senior, and 20/5/5 as a junior. He was the state tournament MVP as a senior when he led Rainier Beach to the title. Darn good high school player.
You don’t get recruited to a P5 school (any P5 school, not just Kansas) if you were not a stud in high school. P5 bench guys were all state picks in high school.
Take Garrett Luinstra, a current walkon at KU. He went to Lawrence Free State. All he did in high school was toss in 19 points per game and set a school record for points in a season.
Chris Teahan was an all district player at Rockhurst as a junior and senior.
Those two guys were darn good HS players.
If you were an average or below high school player, you might have a chance to walk on at a D2 or NAIA school, but if you are at a P5 school, you were a stud in high school without a doubt, and likely one of the better players in your state as a senior.
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justanotherfan said:
BShark said:
Side note: Cunliffe, Anrio etc…were not good HS players. Also Cunliffe was a transfer obviously, and I’d love to get away from transfers for the most part.
Odd fact, Cunliffe and Adams both graduated from the same high school (Rainier Beach in Seattle). CJ Giles and Roderick Stewart also went to that school.
Given those names, its no surprise that Rainier Beach is a perennial state power in Washington, winning or playing for the state title just about every season.
Looking first at Adams, he led the state of Washington in scoring as a sophomore, junior and senior. He led two different schools to state titles while in high school. Averaged 21 points, 6 rebounds and 5 assists per game as a senior. That’s a darn good player.
Cunliffe averaged 21/9/3 as a senior, and 20/5/5 as a junior. He was the state tournament MVP as a senior when he led Rainier Beach to the title. Darn good high school player.
You don’t get recruited to a P5 school (any P5 school, not just Kansas) if you were not a stud in high school. P5 bench guys were all state picks in high school.
Take Garrett Luinstra, a current walkon at KU. He went to Lawrence Free State. All he did in high school was toss in 19 points per game and set a school record for points in a season.
Chris Teahan was an all district player at Rockhurst as a junior and senior.
Those two guys were darn good HS players.
If you were an average or below high school player, you might have a chance to walk on at a D2 or NAIA school, but if you are at a P5 school, you were a stud in high school without a doubt, and likely one of the better players in your state as a senior.
Fair points. I will mention though that guys that change high schools a bunch have a giant warning sign on them. Cunliffe and Adams both moved around a bunch. Billy Preston did as well.
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One of the best 6 players on the team currently. Wild.
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I expected a let down from Ochai in his second game. I was wrong, I’m jumping on the bandwagon.
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Kcmatt7 said:
I’d love to see us press. I could only imagine how effective it would be with our length.
You and me both. I think this team has the potential to maybe become the best on-ball pressure team under Self. We’ve got enough bodies to run… and speed.
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You know my friends I realize it’s only to games , 1 at home - - 1 on the road with Ochai . - -I mean the kid just seems so calm and in control , poised - -just seems like he is total control, even in Baylor’s runs just seemed he just stayed the same attitude. Sure doesn’t seem like he is a Freshman - -and one that was going to red shirt at that.
Just seems really poised. - -and plays a solid game all around. - -Seems like a very adequate defender [ [for sure has a solid shot from the perimeter on top of that I’m getting to really like when he is on the floor - -really like the four out and ONE big in - love the combination when he is on the floor.
With him & Garrett on the floor better defenders and they team just looks better. - -I dunno maybe wetting myself , getting to hyped with him on the floor I mean it’s only two games - -BUT man the team to me anyways sure look a lot better with him on the floor , seems like the run - a lot more & they just look more fluid - probably just me but eh - you know. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Kubie said:
I expected a let down from Ochai in his second game. I was wrong, I’m jumping on the bandwagon.
you and me both. Hope there is enough room on the wagon lol , like they said the kid seems very athletic and we were red shirting this guy? - -As much as I like Mitch looking back now – would of been much better for Mitch to red shirt this year instead of Ochai . - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Poor Mitch! He gives us his all!
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Poor Mitch! He gives us his all!
He is still my guy - -always s brings his hard hat. - - must of forgot it yesterday though - - 8 stitches lol - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 gonna have to drink thru a straw. Wonder if he can play? Sure won’t feel good if he gets hit. He’s certainly tough enough.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@jayballer73 gonna have to drink thru a straw. Wonder if he can play? Sure won’t feel good if he gets hit. He’s certainly tough enough.
I don’t know for sure what they going to do about that. – Ya know I for sure don’t have no problems with them running the 4 out and 1 in , but just kind of wondering how Big Dave is doing emotionally right now as Coach had even said his role was gonna increase - -& then Coach had said before the Baylor game that he thought we would probably have to play 2 big’s more. - -Bad scenario would be if he gets frustrated with the way things playing out and end up transferring.
He obviously hadn’t thought he was gonna be starting by any means - -BUT I think he was thinking he would be getting more minutes then what he has. Hope he sticks with it. Possibly get some more time depending on how they handle Mitch’s injury - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
