Langford
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I know, we are on the same page. At this point several players like Doke are flying well under the radar and just beginning to get noticed and others still living off their HS ranking. The final list will be quite different.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I know, we are on the same page. At this point several players like Doke are flying well under the radar and just beginning to get noticed and others still living off their HS ranking. The final list will be quite different.
Definitely.
Doke is a case where it might take him having a dominant Big-12 or NCAA tournament to move the needle with him.
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Dok’s got no stroke. That’s what’s holding him back. He’d be a top 5 pick if he could knock down a mid-range jumper, top 2 if he could hit a three.
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dylans said:
Dok’s got no stroke. That’s what’s holding him back. He’d be a top 5 pick if he could knock down a mid-range jumper, top 2 if he could hit a three.
Ding ding. Pretty much
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Doke will go in the lottery if goes just based off of size alone. Bam for UK was very similar last year and no made it.
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At this point Doke is not a lotto pick considering that he is not even listed in most mock drafts. Other than maybe a Euro player that jumped into the draft late, I cannot think of a player that went from unlisted, at this stage, to lottery pick. He will need a big season to get into the draft and a huge one to be a first round pick. I see Vick and Graham and even Svi and of course Preston with a better chance than Doke…but I could be wrong.
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@JayHawkFanToo Agree - not close to a lottery pick at this point. Doke still has a lot to work on at this point. Who could he guard in the NBA? Who could he get his own shot against? There are relatively few traditional 5s in the league now, and all are much more skilled. Doke is big and can take up a lot of room, but he isn’t quick, doesn’t have much elevation, can’t pass in or out of the paint, and is a lousy FT shooter. His game has to evolve quite a bit if he wants to sniff the lottery…
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I could be wrong but Diallo got picked, not in the lottery but early second round. Just looking at some mock drafts. Vick is top 20pick on 2 with Svi and DTG going mid second round. Svi is late first round on a few. You would assume Self expects Vick to leave with having Garett already to go with transfer Charlie Moore and Dotson, Grimes. That and recruiting Langford.
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Unfortunately Doke plays a position/style that is quickly disappearing in the NBA and his athleticism is limited. Diallo has superior athleticism and plays a position in demand, particularly if you can shoot or develop a shot from the outside.
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Vick could go in the first round because he fits a very clear role in today’s NBA.
Point out a team that doesn’t need an extra wing that can handle the ball, shoot the three, guard multiple positions and be a secondary rebounder in smaller lineups? With the way the NBA is currently working, literally every team needs a guy like that. Vick won’t necessarily be a star, but every playoff team needs a guy with his skillset, both as a starter and also coming off the bench. Basically, every team needs two or three LaGerald Vick type players.
Once the lottery picks are off the board, teams will covet wings that are athletic, can shoot, and can guard multiple spots. That’s Vick.
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Sounds about right.
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@justanotherfan pretty good points. - -ROC CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Another point I forgot to mention is that Vick is already used to being a reserve and being a role player. He’s not a guy that has to convert from being a star player that gets tons of shots every night to a role player that may not get any shots for a whole quarter at a time in the NBA. Vick hasn’t been the focus of the KU offense since he arrived in Lawrence. Even this year, he’s getting more shots, but he’s not the primary or even really the secondary option.
That’s an adjustment that lots of players struggle with. There are very few college players that will go on to be first or second options in the NBA - maybe half a dozen in a given year if you’re lucky. Vick won’t have to do that. He was sixth man last year. He’s roughly the third or fourth option this season. That’s the type of role he will have in the NBA, and he’s already shown that he can excel in that role.
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Agree on all points.
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NBA talk is always funny to me because it 99% wrong. Take a look at ANY draft and look at the amount of players who are out of the league in 3 years. There is NOBODY on our roster that will play in the NBA for longer than 3 years. Billy Preston is actually the only one that has a legit chance of having a decent career, but I haven’t seen enough.
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@dylans Top 5 pick? It isnt just a stroke he is missing. He has ZERO explosiveness. He is a horrible rebounder for his size because of it. He also almost always has to gather before going up with the ball. In college he gets away with it, in the NBA he will get his shot blocked every time.
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@BigBad And Durant can’t bench press the bar. I still say if Dok could stroke it he’d be a top 5 pick. You can’t teach 7’1”. But as it stands he’s not very skilled, doesn’t rebound well for his size, and has no shot. He would be as successful as Cliff Alexander in the NBA at this point.
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@dylans A stroke doesnt fix his lack of athleticism. Durrant may be weak but he is explosive enough for his size and position. A durrant stroke doesnt fall out of trees.
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How athletic does he need to be? He’s 7’1” if he could stroke it flat footed most people couldn’t bother his shot. He’s athletic enough to block shots. He need to gain basketball IQ Dok’s problem beyond having absolutely the ugliest shot in basketball is his lack of understanding of how to position himself. How to seal off his man to get easy baskets, how to hedge on defense. Things that will hopefully come with experience. Lando did those things well, but he was 6’9” and unathletic if he was over 7ft. he’d likely be getting paid to play basketball a bit more than he currently is.
Ifs and buts. He’s not going to develop a shot so it’s a moot point.
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@dylans He has shown a nice little hook at times. Needs to learn some arc on both that and his FTs, but practice will improve those.
As to verticality, his body type may not allow much; Hudy will figure out what he can do. Remember, he was 40 lbs heavier on his arrival, and every time he goes up he is trying to not only leg press 260 or more–he is trying to leg toss that weight a foot or more into the air after never having had to do it as a younger player.
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I would tend to disagree regarding guys not sticking in the NBA.
Devonte will probably play a few years in the NBA as backup PG at the very least. He’s probably slotted as a starter on a poor team, but a backup on a very good team. His shooting and defensive ability make him a likely fit even though he probably won’t be a high draft pick.
I’ve already outlined why I think Vick could have the best career of anyone on the current roster, so I won’t belabor that here.
Svi will get a very long look. How he adapts to NBA athleticism determines if he stays in the league a dozen years or a dozen games.
Doke will also get a look. If he can become an elite PnR roll man, he could become a DeAndre Jordan type player. Thing is, he may be back in Lawrence next year to work on that.
Newman is the wild card. If he can move to the point, he could have a career. As a 2, he’s destined to head overseas.
Preston is a bit of an unknown. Physically, he can play in the NBA. But the direction the NBA is heading, he really needs to improve on the perimeter both offensively and especially defensively so he can match up with wings and Durant/Paul George type players. If he can do that, he has a decade in the league. If not, he will wash out.
I would say out of all of these guys, Vick plays 12 years, Devonte plays 9, Preston plays 7, Doke plays 4, Svi and Newman go overseas.
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@mayjay I’m amazed with the transformation of Dok’s body. Hudy is amazing!
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dylans said:
How athletic does he need to be? He’s 7’1” if he could stroke it flat footed most people couldn’t bother his shot. He’s athletic enough to block shots.
We have played NOBODY outside of UK as far as real talent. Doke is averaging 1.4 blocks. So obviously he isnt athletic enough to block shots. Lightfoot is leading the team in blocks.
What a lot of you guys do not seem to grasp is that Bill Self MAXIMIZES his roster every year. It’s why we get ranked so high with marginal talent.
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justanotherfan said:
I would say out of all of these guys, Vick plays 12 years, Devonte plays 9, Preston plays 7, Doke plays 4, Svi and Newman go overseas.
Vick has zero natural ball skills and a so so shot. He is a slasher period. To excel at that role in NBA to play 12 years he’d need to be around 6’7.
Devonte struggles against length(Oregon) and when his wide open or chucks from outside are not falling he cant create in the half court for himself. If he had ability to play 9 years in the NBA he would already be gone.
Svi is not fast enough and has really short arms. Though his age may get him some looks.
I like these guys as college players, I just don’t see their skills translating to NBA.
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@BigBad To your point the times that Self has had multiple guys that hung around the league he made the title game…
2008: Rio, Arthur, Cole and Rush still in the league. 2012: Taylor had a couple years, now around Europe. TRob was around until last year. Withey still in the league.
I certainly agree about Graham, Svi and Doke. Graham is a great college guard but his pro ball will be in Europe.
I disagree about Vick though. I think he can hang around.
I’m really hopeful for next season. Grimes I feel is an NBA talent. I’m on the fence about Dotson he needs to develop his shot and he certainly came to the right place for that. Silvio has the tools and Dedric is incredibly skilled.
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@BigBad I’m not going to argue that Dok is uber athletic, he isn’t. But I will never agree with you that a hypothetical 7’1", 280#, 19 year old, with Dok’s level of athleticism, that could shoot lights out wouldn’t be a top 5 pick.
I’m not an nba gm so it doesn’t really matter though.
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Vick did really well at a camp last summer in philly. NBA guys spoke very highly of him. Think it was posted on here?
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You make some fair points. Vick isn’t a PG, but his handle is solid enough to allow him to be a secondary ball handler in the NBA. With all of these guys, I am projecting some level of improvement over time, because if they do not improve, they won’t last more than a year or two - nobody stays in the NBA without improving over time.
Certain stats translate well from level to level. The most consistent is rebounding. Vick averaged 3.5 rebounds last year in about 24 minutes per game. He’s bumped that to 7 per game this season in almost 33 minutes. That means he can play in smaller lineups without sacrificing too much on the glass.
Vick has also been a good FT shooter in his career. Including his freshman year 3-6, Vick is a 77% career FT shooter at KU. That suggests a sound stroke. He’s also a career 40% three point shooter. It’s foreseeable that he can move into a 3 and D wing role with his athleticism, rebounding ability and the ability to likely shoot the three at a league average level. Add in that he can guard 1’s, 2’s and 3’s, and he is in good shape to have a nice career at the next level.
Devonte won’t be a scorer at the next level, but he’s a guy that must be covered because he can shoot. In that respect, he could have a career very similar to Mario Chalmers, which is part of the reason I tabbed him at 9 years. Chalmers briefly faded out of the league after last season before landing with Memphis again. He may hang around another year or two. He may not. He’s at 9 years in the league right now. Additionally, Devonte will play a full year at the point as a primary ball handler in college, something Mario never did with Sherron and RussRob around.
Doke will get a long look with his size, but I just don’t know if he fits in the modern NBA. Still, he will get chances through the end of his rookie contract because he’s big and pretty athletic.
Svi is a good shooter and improved ball handler, but I don’t know if he will stick for the reasons you point out. Even if he never plays a second of NBA ball, he can get paid to play basketball for the next 15 years somewhere.
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One thing @BigBad is really right about is we tend to overrate the NBA potential of KU players. I’m guilty of it myself even.
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@justanotherfan Chalmers is an ELITE defender who possess a 6’9 wingspan at 6’1. I dont see Devonte in that mold.
Our 2008 team was special. It took NBA talent to win the first final four with four #1 seeds.
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Vick and then Svi have the most NBA potiental on the current team, I believe. I don’t see any future NBA all stars, but I do see collegiate level stars.
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Preston definitely has NBA potential and before the current situation, it was pretty much the consensus that he was THE sure one and done.
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@JayHawkFanToo Completely forgot about Billy, since he’s not on the playing roster.
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What is crazy is our 2008 team was LOADED with pros and we barely survive Stephen Curry in the Elite Eight. Go back and watch that game on youtube. Curry is what he is now. No idea how scouts didnt see it coming.
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BigBad said:
What is crazy is our 2008 team was LOADED with pros and we barely survive Stephen Curry in the Elite Eight. Go back and watch that game on youtube. Curry is what he is now. No idea how scouts didnt see it coming.
Yeah I’ve actually watched this game quite a few times. We were fortunate that Curry didn’t take the final shot, from any range.
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BigBad said:
justanotherfan said:
I would say out of all of these guys, Vick plays 12 years, Devonte plays 9, Preston plays 7, Doke plays 4, Svi and Newman go overseas.
Vick has zero natural ball skills and a so so shot. He is a slasher period. To excel at that role in NBA to play 12 years he’d need to be around 6’7.
Devonte struggles against length(Oregon) and when his wide open or chucks from outside are not falling he cant create in the half court for himself. If he had ability to play 9 years in the NBA he would already be gone.
Svi is not fast enough and has really short arms. Though his age may get him some looks.
I like these guys as college players, I just don’t see their skills translating to NBA.
I disagree on a couple points. Vick can be a lights out shooter. He’s a career 40% 3 point shooter and almost 80% FT shooter. That’s a heck of a lot better than so-so. He’s shooting like 55% from 3 this season. He’s got some work above the neck to be a great defender, but has all the physical tools to be a very good perimeter defender in the NBA. I think he ends up coming back to KU, since he’s a borderline first rounder.
I think Devonte can be a plus backup in the NBA for a decade. The dude is just a good basketball player. He’s got solid size and length for a pro PG, plus is a better distributor and shooter than Mario ever was. I could see him going anywhere from 25-35 in the draft. I actually agree with you on Svi. I just don’t see it for him in the NBA. Not sure he’s athletic enough to be a 2, but also don’t think he’s big enough to be a 3. I can see him having a very long and lucrative career overseas though.
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I see Vick with a NBA future. He could be a 1st round pick this year or next season.
Svi can shoot but his limitations will make it hard for him.
Devonte will make a team especially if he continues to shoot the ball and rack up assists the way he is. He’s at best a late 1st round type, more likely a solid 2nd round pick at this point.
Can’t imagine Newman or Doke will make the combine currently
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I was terrified of Curry on that last shot. History is probably different if he insists on taking that shot - he should have taken that shot.
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@justanotherfan But…didn’t we force the ball out of his hands with our defense?
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@Hawk8086 Yes Self wanted anyone but Curry to take it.
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@justanotherfan “History is probably different if he insists on taking that shot - he should have taken that shot.”
I feel the same way about Jacque Vaughn passing up the shot vs. AZ.
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Vick is going anywhere from 19 to undrafted on mocks.
Newman also looking like he will be back. Or in Europe I guess.
I do want me some Langford, but a returning Newman and Vick combo could be just what the doctor ordered to help these two young studs we have coming in.
At this point, next year’s roster projects:
- PG: Dotson, Moore
- SG: Grimes, Newman
- SF: Vick, Garrett, Cunliffe
- PF: Lawson, De Sousa, Lightfoot, Lawson
- C: Doke, McCormack
And, I haven’t seen Preston on boards lately… We are a scholarship over if nobody leaves early. That means either someone is getting forced out or someone is going pro. Only person you could really force out would be Lightfoot. So either Billy, Newman or Vick would need to go pro.
Either way, next year’s team is f-ing stacked. And our post depth is going to be out of this world.
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With they way Newman has played to date I’m not sure you want him back. I think we want the fresh slate to play the young guys and not have someone standing in their way. Newman so far is either just overrated or not playing to his abilities. Right now that would seem to be a mix of both.
Vick is the more important player. He’s taken a step forward in his role this season and if he’s back next season we have that go-to guy.
I think Langford’s decision is based more on Vick but maybe if Newman leaves he still see’s the opportunity here with a guard leaving. We could certainly trot out some exciting lineup combo’s if Langford joins a Vick, Grimes, Dotson, Moore, Garrett, Cunliffe perimeter
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I really don’t think Lightfoot would be forced out; I can see Newman being forced out before Lightfoot.
In any case, I believe Newman came to KU to get exposure and improve his draft stock but looks like he has been exposed instead. He is way too inconsistent and perhaps overrated, although the jury is still out on this. I just don’t see him with NBA potential and overseas looks like the more likely destination and if that is the case, no need to stick around for an extra year.
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I’ll be shocked if Lightfoot is in the rotation next season with what we should have at the 4 next season. The Lawson’s are so much better then Mitch is currently. This would be the perfect scenario to redshirt him.
Just having the 5- Doke, Dave, D Lawson, KJ Lawson & De Sousa is a lot of mouths to feed. Some serious size and skill among those 5 guys.
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@BeddieKU23 Tell ya what. I don’t think you have to worry about Newman being a problem as far as keeping say like Langford away if he wanted to come. - -I really believe Newman is gone one way or another. - More likely then not oversea’s then the NBA - but one way or another he won’t be back.
Vick I fully believe will declare for the NBA -he has already some pretty decent improvement this year - I just think he is gone. Putting Langford in a position where he wouldn’t have either one here if he wanted to come. -Goin down to the wire between Ku & Vanderbilt. - -I know doesn’t really mean anything, cause we all know that the damn CB doesn’t mean much - -BUT as we also know he is down to the three Schools - -Indiana - Vanderbilt - & KU – but yet it only shows KU & Vanderbilt as warmer and Indiana at Warm for what that’s worth - -we shall see - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BeddieKU23 Idk, “Malik Newman, Sixth Man”, has a nice ring to it if you ask me…
Malik is putting up almost identical numbers to Junior Devonte. So I just don’t think that we have fair expectations for the guy. I guess I’m just not seeing the same Malik everyone else is. To me, the guy looks like a very solid guard who just isn’t in sync with everyone else quite yet. He is shooting the 3 at a 40% clip. He is rebounding well for a guard. He is playing just as bad of defense as anyone else.
The truth is we expected Malik to shoot the 3 at a 50% clip, average 5 assists, be a great defender and show that he should be in the NBA already. Those were lofty expectations. But looking purely at the numbers, we can see that Malik has been a very capable college guard so far this season. And I’d love to have him back.
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If Malik were to stick around another season there would be no doubt he starts right? 3rd year in the program and a bunch of upperclassmen leaving. Seems he’d be in line for a leadership role especially mentoring the young guys.
Of course much of what I stated is what I’ve seen so far of Malik. If he turns it around then we benefit and more importantly for him he likely benefits. We’ll see how it plays out. So far I’m fairly disappointed and I had lower expectations of him to begin with.
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@Kcmatt7 agreed. I’m expecting Malik to stay humble and hungry and figure it out.
