Langford
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justanotherfan said:
He’s a really pure shooter that should be able to play both ends. He would pair very nicely with Dotson and Grimes, two talented slashers.
Agree! I think if Vick leaves and KU misses on Langford adding a good perimeter shooter becomes a big priority. Grimes is an okay shooter. We already know Garrett is rough around the edges there, and so is Dotson. Moore is the only plus shooter and he was 35% his first year at Cal. Maybe a grad transfer would be the best option compared to a HS recruit that can shoot but lacks a bunch in other areas. However a grad transfer might be a tough sell with Dotson, Grimes, Garrett, Moore and Cunliffe all on the roster. I’m not a huge fan of Cunliffe but when he is your 5th guard that’s preeeeetty decent.
Man now that I think about it we have been insanely spoiled with good three point shooters lately.
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I will take senior Vick over any OAD including Langford.
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@JayHawkFanToo I would too but he isn’t coming back if he keeps playing at his current level. However we also haven’t really played anyone but UK yet…
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@BShark Hmm … do we really need another shooter? Or are going back to the hi/lo next season? Dotson, Grimes, Garrett, Cunliffe, Moore. Of course, I’d take a shooter any time. But something tells me this team isn’t going to shoot 27 three pointers in a game once next season, let alone average 27 per game as they do this season.
I think we go conventional next season, perhaps the 18-19 threes per game at the most. If Vick stays, that might change a bit. But I don’t see a big time shooter in the bunch next season minus Vick.
You’re statement --“Man now that I think about it we have been insanely spoiled with good three point shooters lately” – is right on point.
@JayHawkFanToo How about this … I wouldn’t trade Vick for any player we could have next season. Vick could be conference POY and an all american.
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I agree the philosophy will change back a bit due to roster construction but I also still think ideally you add another shooter. Might not be possible though, we’re going to be pretty loaded.
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Vick is #19 in the most recent NBADRAFT.net Mock draft.
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I would put very little stock into NBAdraft.net but Vick is certainly playing at a level that could see him land somewhere in the first round if he kept it up
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@BeddieKU23 Well since Draftexpress was basically bought by ESPN and turned into an Insider, that’s what we get.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@BeddieKU23 Well since Draftexpress was basically bought by ESPN and turned into an Insider, that’s what we get.
Boooo ESPN.
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Draftexpress Jayhawks:
Devonte’ 44
Svi 54
Vick 61
Newman 92
No Preston or Azubuike
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Kcmatt7 said:
@BeddieKU23 Well since Draftexpress was basically bought by ESPN and turned into an Insider, that’s what we get.
Yup Givony works for ESPN these days.
If Vick goes 19 this year, boy has he improved
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Way to early to tell how it will turn out. 5 Duke players in the first round including 4 in the top 16 and 3 lottery pick, UK 2 in first round and only 1 lottery pick…this is a switch and probably does not help the squid with his narrative.
Vick is first round but Svi, Devonte and Billy are second round but could play themselves into the first round, same with Malik and Doke that are not listed.
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Of course its still way early. I was simply pointing out I don’t put much stock into the site. If Vick is good enough by seasons end to end up in the first round that’s great for everyone involved.
In my opinion ESPN probably has him ranked appropriately at the moment but he has the chance to move up the most of any hawk. If he averages 16 a game on 50% shooting from 3 he’s going to get a ton of press going forward. He’s improved a good deal from last season and I’m anxious to see if he continues to shoot the ball, rebound and pass the ball at the level he’s currently at.
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@JayHawkFanToo Didn’t say it was done. I just am pointing it out on the Langford thread because it is relevant information to the discussion.
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I know, we are on the same page. At this point several players like Doke are flying well under the radar and just beginning to get noticed and others still living off their HS ranking. The final list will be quite different.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I know, we are on the same page. At this point several players like Doke are flying well under the radar and just beginning to get noticed and others still living off their HS ranking. The final list will be quite different.
Definitely.
Doke is a case where it might take him having a dominant Big-12 or NCAA tournament to move the needle with him.
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Dok’s got no stroke. That’s what’s holding him back. He’d be a top 5 pick if he could knock down a mid-range jumper, top 2 if he could hit a three.
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dylans said:
Dok’s got no stroke. That’s what’s holding him back. He’d be a top 5 pick if he could knock down a mid-range jumper, top 2 if he could hit a three.
Ding ding. Pretty much
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Doke will go in the lottery if goes just based off of size alone. Bam for UK was very similar last year and no made it.
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At this point Doke is not a lotto pick considering that he is not even listed in most mock drafts. Other than maybe a Euro player that jumped into the draft late, I cannot think of a player that went from unlisted, at this stage, to lottery pick. He will need a big season to get into the draft and a huge one to be a first round pick. I see Vick and Graham and even Svi and of course Preston with a better chance than Doke…but I could be wrong.
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@JayHawkFanToo Agree - not close to a lottery pick at this point. Doke still has a lot to work on at this point. Who could he guard in the NBA? Who could he get his own shot against? There are relatively few traditional 5s in the league now, and all are much more skilled. Doke is big and can take up a lot of room, but he isn’t quick, doesn’t have much elevation, can’t pass in or out of the paint, and is a lousy FT shooter. His game has to evolve quite a bit if he wants to sniff the lottery…
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I could be wrong but Diallo got picked, not in the lottery but early second round. Just looking at some mock drafts. Vick is top 20pick on 2 with Svi and DTG going mid second round. Svi is late first round on a few. You would assume Self expects Vick to leave with having Garett already to go with transfer Charlie Moore and Dotson, Grimes. That and recruiting Langford.
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Unfortunately Doke plays a position/style that is quickly disappearing in the NBA and his athleticism is limited. Diallo has superior athleticism and plays a position in demand, particularly if you can shoot or develop a shot from the outside.
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Vick could go in the first round because he fits a very clear role in today’s NBA.
Point out a team that doesn’t need an extra wing that can handle the ball, shoot the three, guard multiple positions and be a secondary rebounder in smaller lineups? With the way the NBA is currently working, literally every team needs a guy like that. Vick won’t necessarily be a star, but every playoff team needs a guy with his skillset, both as a starter and also coming off the bench. Basically, every team needs two or three LaGerald Vick type players.
Once the lottery picks are off the board, teams will covet wings that are athletic, can shoot, and can guard multiple spots. That’s Vick.
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Sounds about right.
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@justanotherfan pretty good points. - -ROC CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Another point I forgot to mention is that Vick is already used to being a reserve and being a role player. He’s not a guy that has to convert from being a star player that gets tons of shots every night to a role player that may not get any shots for a whole quarter at a time in the NBA. Vick hasn’t been the focus of the KU offense since he arrived in Lawrence. Even this year, he’s getting more shots, but he’s not the primary or even really the secondary option.
That’s an adjustment that lots of players struggle with. There are very few college players that will go on to be first or second options in the NBA - maybe half a dozen in a given year if you’re lucky. Vick won’t have to do that. He was sixth man last year. He’s roughly the third or fourth option this season. That’s the type of role he will have in the NBA, and he’s already shown that he can excel in that role.
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Agree on all points.
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NBA talk is always funny to me because it 99% wrong. Take a look at ANY draft and look at the amount of players who are out of the league in 3 years. There is NOBODY on our roster that will play in the NBA for longer than 3 years. Billy Preston is actually the only one that has a legit chance of having a decent career, but I haven’t seen enough.
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@dylans Top 5 pick? It isnt just a stroke he is missing. He has ZERO explosiveness. He is a horrible rebounder for his size because of it. He also almost always has to gather before going up with the ball. In college he gets away with it, in the NBA he will get his shot blocked every time.
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@BigBad And Durant can’t bench press the bar. I still say if Dok could stroke it he’d be a top 5 pick. You can’t teach 7’1”. But as it stands he’s not very skilled, doesn’t rebound well for his size, and has no shot. He would be as successful as Cliff Alexander in the NBA at this point.
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@dylans A stroke doesnt fix his lack of athleticism. Durrant may be weak but he is explosive enough for his size and position. A durrant stroke doesnt fall out of trees.
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How athletic does he need to be? He’s 7’1” if he could stroke it flat footed most people couldn’t bother his shot. He’s athletic enough to block shots. He need to gain basketball IQ Dok’s problem beyond having absolutely the ugliest shot in basketball is his lack of understanding of how to position himself. How to seal off his man to get easy baskets, how to hedge on defense. Things that will hopefully come with experience. Lando did those things well, but he was 6’9” and unathletic if he was over 7ft. he’d likely be getting paid to play basketball a bit more than he currently is.
Ifs and buts. He’s not going to develop a shot so it’s a moot point.
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@dylans He has shown a nice little hook at times. Needs to learn some arc on both that and his FTs, but practice will improve those.
As to verticality, his body type may not allow much; Hudy will figure out what he can do. Remember, he was 40 lbs heavier on his arrival, and every time he goes up he is trying to not only leg press 260 or more–he is trying to leg toss that weight a foot or more into the air after never having had to do it as a younger player.
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I would tend to disagree regarding guys not sticking in the NBA.
Devonte will probably play a few years in the NBA as backup PG at the very least. He’s probably slotted as a starter on a poor team, but a backup on a very good team. His shooting and defensive ability make him a likely fit even though he probably won’t be a high draft pick.
I’ve already outlined why I think Vick could have the best career of anyone on the current roster, so I won’t belabor that here.
Svi will get a very long look. How he adapts to NBA athleticism determines if he stays in the league a dozen years or a dozen games.
Doke will also get a look. If he can become an elite PnR roll man, he could become a DeAndre Jordan type player. Thing is, he may be back in Lawrence next year to work on that.
Newman is the wild card. If he can move to the point, he could have a career. As a 2, he’s destined to head overseas.
Preston is a bit of an unknown. Physically, he can play in the NBA. But the direction the NBA is heading, he really needs to improve on the perimeter both offensively and especially defensively so he can match up with wings and Durant/Paul George type players. If he can do that, he has a decade in the league. If not, he will wash out.
I would say out of all of these guys, Vick plays 12 years, Devonte plays 9, Preston plays 7, Doke plays 4, Svi and Newman go overseas.
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@mayjay I’m amazed with the transformation of Dok’s body. Hudy is amazing!
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dylans said:
How athletic does he need to be? He’s 7’1” if he could stroke it flat footed most people couldn’t bother his shot. He’s athletic enough to block shots.
We have played NOBODY outside of UK as far as real talent. Doke is averaging 1.4 blocks. So obviously he isnt athletic enough to block shots. Lightfoot is leading the team in blocks.
What a lot of you guys do not seem to grasp is that Bill Self MAXIMIZES his roster every year. It’s why we get ranked so high with marginal talent.
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justanotherfan said:
I would say out of all of these guys, Vick plays 12 years, Devonte plays 9, Preston plays 7, Doke plays 4, Svi and Newman go overseas.
Vick has zero natural ball skills and a so so shot. He is a slasher period. To excel at that role in NBA to play 12 years he’d need to be around 6’7.
Devonte struggles against length(Oregon) and when his wide open or chucks from outside are not falling he cant create in the half court for himself. If he had ability to play 9 years in the NBA he would already be gone.
Svi is not fast enough and has really short arms. Though his age may get him some looks.
I like these guys as college players, I just don’t see their skills translating to NBA.
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@BigBad To your point the times that Self has had multiple guys that hung around the league he made the title game…
2008: Rio, Arthur, Cole and Rush still in the league. 2012: Taylor had a couple years, now around Europe. TRob was around until last year. Withey still in the league.
I certainly agree about Graham, Svi and Doke. Graham is a great college guard but his pro ball will be in Europe.
I disagree about Vick though. I think he can hang around.
I’m really hopeful for next season. Grimes I feel is an NBA talent. I’m on the fence about Dotson he needs to develop his shot and he certainly came to the right place for that. Silvio has the tools and Dedric is incredibly skilled.
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@BigBad I’m not going to argue that Dok is uber athletic, he isn’t. But I will never agree with you that a hypothetical 7’1", 280#, 19 year old, with Dok’s level of athleticism, that could shoot lights out wouldn’t be a top 5 pick.
I’m not an nba gm so it doesn’t really matter though.
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Vick did really well at a camp last summer in philly. NBA guys spoke very highly of him. Think it was posted on here?
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You make some fair points. Vick isn’t a PG, but his handle is solid enough to allow him to be a secondary ball handler in the NBA. With all of these guys, I am projecting some level of improvement over time, because if they do not improve, they won’t last more than a year or two - nobody stays in the NBA without improving over time.
Certain stats translate well from level to level. The most consistent is rebounding. Vick averaged 3.5 rebounds last year in about 24 minutes per game. He’s bumped that to 7 per game this season in almost 33 minutes. That means he can play in smaller lineups without sacrificing too much on the glass.
Vick has also been a good FT shooter in his career. Including his freshman year 3-6, Vick is a 77% career FT shooter at KU. That suggests a sound stroke. He’s also a career 40% three point shooter. It’s foreseeable that he can move into a 3 and D wing role with his athleticism, rebounding ability and the ability to likely shoot the three at a league average level. Add in that he can guard 1’s, 2’s and 3’s, and he is in good shape to have a nice career at the next level.
Devonte won’t be a scorer at the next level, but he’s a guy that must be covered because he can shoot. In that respect, he could have a career very similar to Mario Chalmers, which is part of the reason I tabbed him at 9 years. Chalmers briefly faded out of the league after last season before landing with Memphis again. He may hang around another year or two. He may not. He’s at 9 years in the league right now. Additionally, Devonte will play a full year at the point as a primary ball handler in college, something Mario never did with Sherron and RussRob around.
Doke will get a long look with his size, but I just don’t know if he fits in the modern NBA. Still, he will get chances through the end of his rookie contract because he’s big and pretty athletic.
Svi is a good shooter and improved ball handler, but I don’t know if he will stick for the reasons you point out. Even if he never plays a second of NBA ball, he can get paid to play basketball for the next 15 years somewhere.
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One thing @BigBad is really right about is we tend to overrate the NBA potential of KU players. I’m guilty of it myself even.
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@justanotherfan Chalmers is an ELITE defender who possess a 6’9 wingspan at 6’1. I dont see Devonte in that mold.
Our 2008 team was special. It took NBA talent to win the first final four with four #1 seeds.
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Vick and then Svi have the most NBA potiental on the current team, I believe. I don’t see any future NBA all stars, but I do see collegiate level stars.
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Preston definitely has NBA potential and before the current situation, it was pretty much the consensus that he was THE sure one and done.
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@JayHawkFanToo Completely forgot about Billy, since he’s not on the playing roster.
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What is crazy is our 2008 team was LOADED with pros and we barely survive Stephen Curry in the Elite Eight. Go back and watch that game on youtube. Curry is what he is now. No idea how scouts didnt see it coming.
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BigBad said:
What is crazy is our 2008 team was LOADED with pros and we barely survive Stephen Curry in the Elite Eight. Go back and watch that game on youtube. Curry is what he is now. No idea how scouts didnt see it coming.
Yeah I’ve actually watched this game quite a few times. We were fortunate that Curry didn’t take the final shot, from any range.
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BigBad said:
justanotherfan said:
I would say out of all of these guys, Vick plays 12 years, Devonte plays 9, Preston plays 7, Doke plays 4, Svi and Newman go overseas.
Vick has zero natural ball skills and a so so shot. He is a slasher period. To excel at that role in NBA to play 12 years he’d need to be around 6’7.
Devonte struggles against length(Oregon) and when his wide open or chucks from outside are not falling he cant create in the half court for himself. If he had ability to play 9 years in the NBA he would already be gone.
Svi is not fast enough and has really short arms. Though his age may get him some looks.
I like these guys as college players, I just don’t see their skills translating to NBA.
I disagree on a couple points. Vick can be a lights out shooter. He’s a career 40% 3 point shooter and almost 80% FT shooter. That’s a heck of a lot better than so-so. He’s shooting like 55% from 3 this season. He’s got some work above the neck to be a great defender, but has all the physical tools to be a very good perimeter defender in the NBA. I think he ends up coming back to KU, since he’s a borderline first rounder.
I think Devonte can be a plus backup in the NBA for a decade. The dude is just a good basketball player. He’s got solid size and length for a pro PG, plus is a better distributor and shooter than Mario ever was. I could see him going anywhere from 25-35 in the draft. I actually agree with you on Svi. I just don’t see it for him in the NBA. Not sure he’s athletic enough to be a 2, but also don’t think he’s big enough to be a 3. I can see him having a very long and lucrative career overseas though.
