Grimes
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Not a valid source.
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@jayballer54 why do you spend so much time on kentucky sites
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3genhawk said:
@jayballer54 why do you spend so much time on kentucky sites
Lmao, Well really if you truly wanna know - cause I’m a fricken junkie I’ll pick up tidbits from anywhere I can I live on College Basketball.
I look at UK because actually they are one of the truly informational sites - -instead of hearing about who is doing what laundry - -I get to read about basketball , Basketball recruiting , - -I also when I need some laughs I hit their sit up - some of these clowns are really funny.
I look at Maryland Sites , Florida sites , Arizona sites , Indiana Sites , Louisville sites , Duke sites , N Carolina sites , K-State sites , West Virginia sites , - Any where I can pick up any information on any KU Recruit , - I already got kicked off the Kentucky site under one name for talking smack with them - but it’s ok - just went in under different name I eat , sleep, and Dream College Basketball. I’m tatted up with KU emblems - the Jayhawk what have you. - My man cave is loaded up with KU.
But the biggest reason I am on other sites I think. - - I think the reason I do it is so People like you will ask me why I spend so much time on the Kentucky site. -roflmao - -you have yourself a great night. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 awesome! I really dig the investigative work on other fan sites. Thanks for doing the dirty work. Lol @ getting kicked off the UK site for trolling.
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approxinfinity said:
@jayballer54 awesome! I really dig the investigative work on other fan sites. Thanks for doing the dirty work. Lol @ getting kicked off the UK site for trolling. Ya guess they didn’t like it to much when someone talked some grief about their blessed program. All I know I went to check it out one day and it say I was banned lmao. - -NO - - -BIGGIE – different profile name - - different E- Mail address - -and presto back in lmao. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 sorry for asking. I’m glad you check out all those sites. I like to spend my time with family and friends away from the computer.
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@3genhawk And you should, My wife does her thing & I do mine & we do together soooo it’s all Apples and Oranges. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@3genhawk apparently not all of it.
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@Kcmatt7 YES - - -ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL OF ITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT ROFLMFAO. ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL OF IT. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@KUSTEVE Considering an Arizona coach was one of the people that has actually been charged so far for paying players, it’s not difficult to figure out who thise players are.
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You posit a valid theory but much like mine is still a theory since we really don’t know what transpired during the recruiting process…at least not yet. Of ourse, if he ends up playing overseas the answer will be obvious.
I don’t recall who was considered the front runner before KU became the favorite but, is it possible that it happened because his ascent to the top of the charts made him more appealing to elite programs? I honestly don’t recall if he was always at or near the top or if happened due to excellent off-season/AAU play like many other largely unknown players, whom a good AAU run catapulted them in the rankings.
Back to my original premise, if Zion and/or family did not do anything wrong, i.e. received money or other unapproved benefits that would affect his eligibility, wouldn’t KU be the logical destination since, considering all the sure scrutiny to follow, it would send a clear message that the allegations were false? Just thinking aloud.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree with your theory. Hopefully, it can be proven.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 KU has been in his recruitment sense it started. By your theory of using articles with no sources then KU shouldn’t recruit inside the top 50 ever because they all have a risk of taking money and being targeted by agents. There are plenty of articles that say that. And Adidas could steer Zion without paying him. They could simply be saying, here is your future endorsement deal if you go to an Adidas school. That’s not illegal. To make assumptions with no facts is dumb right now. That author very clearly wrote that article to get clicks. No validity to it. I still expect Adidas to try to funnel kids to KU. Just to do it within the boundary of the laws in our country.
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@Kcmatt7 Hold on now … I could argue that promising a future monetary benefit in violation of NCAA rules, as you suggest, in return for signing with a particular school (and thus not with others) could be corruption and fraud. What’s the difference between putting the money in their hands now, vs. later? If that was reasonable, then boosters could promise say $100,000 once a player left or graduated. It’s the same thing. A “bribe” is a bribe. You would be denying schools that receive federal funding from the chance to sign the player, based on the improper benefit/bribe. Further you would be giving the innocent player corrupted advice and counsel.
Just showing how strained this whole prosecution is, in my opinion.
And why aren’t the players being charged? They know the rules and are participating in this criminal conspiracy, right?
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@Kcmatt7 Adidas funneling kids to schools regardless of money changing hands is still against NCAA rules. This is why none of the players in the report are being charged because they didn’t do anything illegal in the eyes of the law when they accepted payments. Accepting those payments is still against NCAA rules and makes them ineligible according to the rules of the NCAA.
I can legally accept gifts at my job all day long and the FBI and DOJ aren’t going to care one bit about that. My contract with my employer however does not permit me to do so or I risk losing my job.
In regards to Zion, I never said KU wasn’t recruiting him from the beginning, only that KU didn’t become a realistic landing spot for him until very recently.
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The NCAA is a bullshit organization. Love love love love the article @HighEliteMajor posted in the other thread.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Or is it possible he just didn’t really consider KU until KU moved him higher on their board? The staff put in a ton of work this summer watching him and making it known Zion was a priority. Could it be that Zion just liked what he heard?
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@FarmerJayhawk And KU didn’t put in work on him prior to this summer? I seriously doubt the coaches were changing their pitch to him that much because there isn’t that much you can tell a top 5 player that every other program isn’t telling him as well.
Something happened with Zion and I doubt a change in the recruiting pitch made that big if a difference in his recruitment.
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@HighEliteMajor A promise is not a bribe. Both parties could still opt out at any point during the process. If telling someone their potential is illegal, any type of recruiting would be illegal.
The second money changes hands, the criminal act was comitted.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 And why was KU never a realistic option? Did Zion ever say he wasn’t interested in KU? Nobody knows what is going on behind closed doors. It has seemed very much like a normal recruitment so far. Most of the speculation has been tied to the package deal with him to UK. Duke and UK are also both recruiting other wings that would be used the same way as Zion will so why go there and potentially not be featured? Makes way more sense for Zion to go to the place where he will be THE man no matter what. And Bill has done a phenomenal job showcasing wings. Just like Wiggins, of course Adidas has made it clear they want to sign Zion and for him to go to an Adidas school. Doesn’t mean money changed hands.
And, it isn’t against NCAA rules. It is Adidas hiring an employee. And implicating to them they are more likely to get the job if they go to x schools. Adidas isn’t literally paying them to go to the school. Adidas is paying them for future services. Very clear difference than being paid to go to x school.
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@Kcmatt7 Zion is the best wing in the class, he’ll be the featured player wherever goes regardless if it’s Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, or anywhere else.
And yes, Adidas was paying players to go to specific schools. Part of the condition for Brian Bowen receiving the money he did was that he went to Louisville. Nas Little was in a bidding war between Nike Arizona and Adidas Miami that Nike was going to win. It doesn’t matter where the money is coming from whether it be an assistant coach or ShoeCo, those players accepted payments which is a violation of NCAA rules and why any player in that DOJ/FBI report will never play college basketball. It also doesn’t matter where the money was coming from because it was all going for the same cause in the end. Player takes money from ShoeCo, ShoeCo tells player where to go and who to represent him after college and what shoe to wear. Assistant coach pays player to come to gets in school, assistant coach tells player who to represent him after college and what shoe to wear after college.
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@Kcmatt7 Actually, bribery law provides that “promises” or “promising” is an act of bribery. Federal link first, Kansas link second. However the scenario we’re talking about isn’t bribery. The issue I was referring to is the claim of fraud/corruption in dealing with violation of NCAA rules, with the legal hook being universities receiving federal funds. Even then, I agree with you … it is not, and should, not be illegal.
Why should a private company not be able to pay an independent actor to further its self interests?
Simply because it violates a private organizations “rules” is a big “who cares.”
My post was more one to demonstrate the absurdity of what the Feds are doing in the current situation, and to show that one could extrapolate illegality even further.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/201
https://www.lawserver.com/law/state/kansas/ks-statutes/kansas_statutes_21-6001
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Not what I said. You didn’t understand my post.
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@HighEliteMajor It’s a fair point, but it could be an argument that it effects another Private organization financially. Essentially, one private organization is corrupting another. If I hired someone to intentionally screw over another organization, that would be corruption. Now I don’t know that the NCAA is getting screwed, but it could be argued. I see what you are saying. I just think the Feds typically charge people when they know they are going to win. Especially something this public. You can’t charge people on shaky legal grounds. That would look really, really bad. Not to mention, precedence is already set. There has been someone already sent to prison for this.
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I agree with you in principle with what you are saying but not knowing everything that transpired is hard to see it one way or another. There well could be another level of corruption they have not disclosed that they are saving to use as leverage.
I believe the links you provided refer to public employees and I am not sure many or any of the participants qualify as such.
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@JayHawkFanToo I don’t think bribery applies to the scenario he had mentioned. And as far as public employees, we know our coaches are public employees. More demonstrative.
I just think this whole thing will be interesting to see develop. And @Kcmatt7, I can assure that prosecutors can and do charge folks on “shaky legal grounds.” That’s what’s called prosecutorial discretion. Charging does not mean winning … many times defendants get their cases dismissed on legal grounds.
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Sorry, I meant to say Public “Officials” not Public “Employees.” KU coaches might be public employees but not necessarily public officials. In any case, under your theory, coaches at private schools would no be subject to the law since they are not Public Officials or Employees, right? This would no make any sense, right?..not that any of it makes sense at this time.
Prosecutors bring charges for shaky cases all the time; I understand it gives them additional resources that migh not be available otherwise.
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@JayHawkFanToo If you look at the bottom of the KS statute, it includes “public employees” under the definition of public officials. Didn’t see that though in the Fed statute though. Just FYI.
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A quick search appears to indicate the Federal government and 29 states make a clear distinction between public official and public employee, the rest have various levels of distinction between the two.
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@JayHawkFanToo All too often, unfortunately, we manage to get (federal and state) people who use these positions to become public embarrassments. We need a statute for that.
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So… this thread is titled “Grimes”?
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@RockkChalkk ya
- -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY OLONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor Once criminal charges have been filed at the federal level, the odds are not good. 92% of defendants are found guilty.
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao/legacy/2014/09/22/13statrpt.pdf (pages 8 and 9)
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@Kcmatt7 Let me ask you this – what does “found guilty” mean to you? Second question, how many cases are filed that involve something other than a fact scenario that if proven true, is a clear violation of law?
I’ll answer the questions generally. First, “found guilty” includes every plea deal that is made. The stat is not astounding at all. Really, think about this – just under 1 out of 10 people charged are actually innocent? Or the charging was incorrect? That is a big number. So I think your use of the stat proves my point with clarity. Maybe 8% of cases are on “shaky legal ground”?
Second, generally, the 92% stat also includes cases where folks simply plea, perhaps even being completely innocent, to avoid the risk of hard prison time. That is a very real consideration. If you are facing a charge that could land you 15 years, but you can plea to three months and parole for two years – even if innocent, are you going to gamble 14 years and 9 months of your life? Even if you have a 90% chance of a not guilty verdict?
I am very pro-prosecution and pro-law enforcement. But some prosecutors have questionable intellect. Some have questionable motives. Some just make errors in judgment. They are not pristine. In sum, they are human.
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@HighEliteMajor Well the arresting of 10 men, for crimes that already have precedence set, seems like a pretty slam dunk case to me.
I don’t care about generally. What I am saying is that 9/10 cases, someone gets convicted. And yes 95% of convictions are plea deals. So the odds that this goes to trial is irrelevant. How someone gets convicted is irrelevant. All that matters is that the odds of these men being convicted is very high.
And, corruption/bribery is 100% illegal in both business and government. Just look up the Honda scandal from 30 years ago. There is precedence set. This money was not a gift. If they can prove that this money was literally for steering players to certain advisers, the bribery charges are very, very real.
And that is ignoring that 100% of them committed fraud. All 10 men arrested committed fraud. So I realize you are trying to see this as shaky legal ground, from what I see not only do they have a 92% chance of being convicted they have a much higher chance than that because all of them committed one crime for sure. Add that to the fact that they only committed fraud in order to conceal what they were doing makes their case even stronger. You don’t bring several charges each against 10 men without having hard evidence. Just doesn’t happen. Has nothing to do with respect for law enforcement. It is basic math and common sense. If they weren’t doing something wrong, why would they commit fraud?
So I wouldn’t say they were charged on shaky legal ground. They have several charges against them, many of the charges very solid, one might be questionable based on how you interpret the federal funding issues. Either way, these men are going to be convicted.
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Ok, I do appreciate that you have a firm opinion. I’d just suggest/ask that you open your mind a bit. You said – “You don’t bring several charges each against 10 men without having hard evidence.” The reality is that judges dismiss charges that prosecutors have filed. Here is an incredibly very short list that took me less than five minutes to cut and paste. No doubt, there are some good cases out there that are very solid. You are just operating on a misguided premise that simply because a charge is filed, there is “hard evidence.” Just simply not true.
https://www.law360.com/articles/495626/why-key-deepwater-horizon-criminal-charges-were-dismissed
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2014/11/federal_charges_dismissed_agai.html
https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/why-were-perlitz-charges-dismissed
https://www.yahoo.com/news/most-charges-dismissed-against-ex-153424894.html
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@HighEliteMajor You clearly didn’t even comb through the articles you posted. Several of them had charges refiled and were convicted of, at the very least, a lesser crime.
Usually a case that is dismissed is simply dismissed on the charges filed. And prosecutors typically appeal the cases or refile on different criminal charges. As has happened with several of the cases you just linked…
Prosecutors don’t file charges if they don’t think they will get a conviction. It literally ruins their careers to swing and miss on convictions. So, clearly they don’t miss very often.
But sure, I do operate on the assumption that when a charge is filed, there is USUALLY hard evidence. As there appears to be in the CBB case. I don’t find that to be “misguided” though. Here is the thing, I love law, and I love research. I grew up a cops kid and I have personally known prosecutors and district attorneys. I know that these guys are smart. And I also know that they don’t have the time to spend prosecuting people for things they don’t think they will get a conviction on. I don’t know what premise you operate on, but I feel as though perhaps yours might be more misguided than mine. I have plenty of personal experience which has helped me to form my opinion. I ask, what personal experience do you have? You linked a bunch of unrelated articles to make your point in general that cases get dismissed? Do you think I’m a child and don’t understand anything that goes on in the legal process or that I don’t know that cases get dismissed? I’m just curious as to where you are going with your points.
If you feel that there is shaky legal ground on the CBB case, please find precedence of similar cases being dismissed. Your first link is pretty good, other than it was clearly sloppy FBI work. Not necessarily that they weren’t guilty of something illegal. The prosecutor didn’t lose because he prosecuted a crime on shaky legal ground. He lost because the FBI caused themselves to lose credibility in the case when their own characters were brought into question. So, not the greatest support. Do you have any other precedence that says any of the CBB coaches, agents, financial advisers or shoe reps should have their cases dismissed?
I have one that says that the evidence they have is probably enough for a conviction.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-8th-circuit/1161058.html
Another
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How someone gets convicted is irrelevant.
I want to think you don’t believe this.
Does the name Mike Nifong ring a bell?
How about if those 3 students would have been convicted?
Prosecutors file charges with insufficient or tainted evidence all the time and many will go to any length to get a conviction even when the concept of a fair trial is left in the dust. Many local cases are kicked up to the federal level because prosecutors at that level have access to many federal statutes not available to local prosecutors and evidence not accepted at the state level is often accepted at the federal level and something like double jeopardy at the local level does not prevent the feds from prosecuting. Remember the LA riots? Most of the cops charged were acquitted at the state level and then the feds swept in and got federal conviction for the same charges.
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@Kcmatt7 You miss the point of the links. Look, you believe something that just isn’t true. One statement you made frames the disconnect … you said prosecutors don’t file charges unless they think they can get a conviction. With that blanket statement, fundamentally, you simply don’t understand how prosecutors operate. Prosecutors file certain cases for many reasons, and their overreaches are many times dismissed by the judge in advance of trial, or they get thumped by a jury. Likewise, sometimes judges are wrong when they dismiss cases and juries are wrong when they acquit.
That’s all a separate issue of whether this CBB case is a legal stretch, which I believe. I think this sort of case is grandstanding, and is outside the bounds really what we need our prosecutors to do. But that’s a different issue:
You seem to think that all prosecutors have pristine motives and always file their cases ethically, with attention to detail, and based on the belief that they can gain a conviction of the party charged. That’s just horribly, horribly naive.
It’s hard to know what you don’t know. There are many topics where I suffer the same malady.
But you can obviously believe what you want to believe.
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@JayHawkFanToo You pulled one line completely out of context. If that is what we are going to do, no sense in having a conversation.
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@HighEliteMajor The links, if they had a point, was a poorly made one. As I pointed out before, many of the cases were refiled… And convicted. Or the links didn’t take me to a site I could even read the article. And, again, I do understand how the legal system works. You don’t have to explain to me that cases get dismissed.
And it isn’t a separate issue, the college basketball case is what we were talking about in the first place before you tried to “teach this young whipper snapper a lesson.” And I don’t think that ALL prosecutors have those motives. Like any job, power gets to some people’s heads. But I do believe that the vast majority of them do in fact have good motives. Just like I believe with cops. And public servants. And 99% of people in the world. But I’m not ignorant. As much as you would like to believe.
I’m going to say this in all caps so maybe it sticks. I UNDERSTAND THAT SOME PROSECUTORS ARE BAD. I said it, am I still “horribly, horribly naive?” Now, can we get back to how you feel this is a legal stretch on the CBB case. I provided two cases in which basketball coaches, one AAU and another CBB, were arrested for similar acts. And convicted. If you don’t want to discuss that, I see no point in continuing the discussion as I have already agreed that not every prosecutor is a perfect citizen.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@JayHawkFanToo You pulled one line completely out of context. If that is what we are going to do, no sense in having a conversation.
I myself was pretty sure you meant by which path, trial or guilty plea, someone got convicted in terms of the validity of the statistics. I was actually amused that he chose to interpret it as condoning prosecutorial or police misconduct. Par for the course lately around here.
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RockkChalkk said:
So… this thread is titled “Grimes”?
It’s hidden but he’ll be a jayhawk, at least, we hope, so.
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@Kcmatt7 C’mon, you and I both know @HighEliteMajor is only posting this stuff because he’s been paid off
I promised not to say that but the check bounced…
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@BeddieKU23 Grimes will maybe sign if he doesn’t read this thread thinking it is about him.
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mayjay said:
@BeddieKU23 Grimes will maybe sign if he doesn’t read this thread thinking it is about him.
We might need to start a We Want Grimes thread just to balance it out!
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For those that have more knowledge about this situation then I do, a few questions have popped up looking at conversation going back and forth.
What are the likely chances any of the people charged walk away from this without jail time?
It seems they got everyone on audio/video etc in the act. Is any of this circumstantial once it goes to court/trial etc? Seems how each person took different amounts of cash in this are their different levels for which the money will involve a more severe penalty?
Which leads me to Louisville and Arizona. Where the heck is the NCAA in deciding what’s happening with their seasons? Maybe it’s too soon but you’d think we would start hearing from them about this. Both have Top 10 teams currently and its not like the season in months away, its weeks. Pitino is gone, in comes Padgett… Book is out at Arizona and there is some insinuating information that Miller was at least aware of his involvement. Are they really going to play this season after what has come out? If these programs are too be punished for what’s happened then they better start deciding what’s happening. Both teams have current players listed in the FBI report.
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@BeddieKU23 All the articles indicate that the NCAA was unaware of the investigation until the charges were announced by the Feds. We can be pretty sure that the enforcement process will take a long while, especially since they won’t have any leverage over any fired or suspended staff and athletes. So the 'AA will have to wait for evidence to dribble out in the criminal cases, and that, too, will be a drawn out process.
Self-imposed sanctions may occur quickly, however, if the schools try to get ahead of the NCAA and forestall more drastic punishments. It doesn’t always work–ask Louisville and Syracuse.
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@Kcmatt7 The reason I responded was because of the completely definitive statements you made about why prosecutors file cases. You have backed off those definitive statements now stating that “you know.” I take it now that “you know” prosecutors sometimes file cases with very little evidence, with poor motives, with an eye on another defendants, and/or on questionable legal grounds. That wasn’t clear to me prior to me engaging the topic with you. If you held those positions, it did not come across in what you typed here. So that is that then.
Perhaps you can take what “you know”, and look at the current CBB case with a skeptical eye. Perhaps like a white collar defense lawyer might, or how a judge might.
I am curious, who do you think was “defrauded” in the CBB case? I don’t see anyone that was defrauded. That goes to the heart of why I think the charges are, at best, wildly creative. Remember, if you say the school was defrauded, that means they didn’t know about these types of deals.
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So there’s a chance (maybe a really good one) that both Louisville & Arizona are going to play this season without official sanctions etc. Basically rendering this a scandal TBD but there’s still Basketball to be played and soon. Louisville lost their coach, big deal, won’t stop them from winning games this year. Arizona lost their assistant, big deal won’t stop them from winning games this year
Forbes lists Louisville #1 in value at 45.4 million, Arizona #10. Louisville is $15 million more valuable then #2 which happens to be KU. Fat chance either school puts a halt to their season without being told to do so, the cash cows make too much money even in a scandal to stop it prematurely.
I know things don’t happen at a whim but we’ve heard very little from the NCAA about this so far…
