Question for @Jaybate...and anyone else that wants to chime in
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This is interesting. Can the KU fan base, fans of one of the most dominant college basketball programs ever, really have an inferiority complex? Only 3 titles to boot compared to the 5 by duke? 6 by Unc and 8 by UK? That in itself is why each tournament loss hits ku fans so hard every year. Another year gone for us to catch up while a program we compare ourselves to adds another trophy to the mantle. In reality Roy left to the enemy and widened the gap between us and the program’s we envy. Instead of winning 3 titles at KU he won them at a blue blood that already had more titles than ku. A harsh reality we have to grapple with.
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I’m not worried about Roy’s accomplishments- glad he finally learned to play half court offense. As a KU fan, I prefer to run my own race. I don’t care what UNC is doing- I want to see us back in the national championship game. We’ve been close the last two years. It’s coming.
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@JayHawkFanToo Roy learned the scam from Dean Smith, implemented it at KU, and brought the same guy that was running the scam to UNC to run the same deal. It’s one of Dean’s ideas Roy ran with. I highly doubt with the amount of heat that has been generated by this story they could simply blame KU, and walk off untouched. There would be a lynch mob over that one. The NCAA will end up classifying it as an academic problem, not an athletic problem, and slap their hands. It might take them years to get to that point. It will not include KU.
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@jaybate-1.0 I respect your position on this topic and your views on KU basketball, on Roy and on all of college ball in general. That’s why I asked. So if you need to let it go, then consider it done.
I didn’t watch the title game. I rarely do watch the title game unless KU is in it.
But, I do believe that the East coast bias is real.
We’ll put this up in a little compartment for later. I’m sure this topic will come around again at a better time.
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@JayHawkFanToo Coach Self has been prescient in his ability to manage KU hoops as its leader and coach since he arrived here. But, if what you say could happen and Coach Self got pushed up against the ropes, do you not think he would fight with everything he has and that he would win? I sure as hell do.
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@KUSTEVE said I want to see us back in the national championship game. We’ve been close the last two years. It’s coming.
I agree dude! I was just thinking the same thing my self earlier today. Two straight elite 8s. We are Soooo close. I’m betting the house that Bill gets KU to another title within 5 years.
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I really don’t think Coach Williams would ever do this, he has been pretty loyal and respectful of KU. On the other hand, the other individual could do it, particularly if the word came down from the top to save UNC at all cost. The president of the University of Maryland indicated UNC should receive the death penalty…this is very serious…and desperate people do desperate things.
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We don’t need to get too deep in the academics scandal at UNC. Let’s let the President at Maryland do our talking for us -
Maryland president suggests ‘death penalty’ for UNC over academic investigation
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Thanks for calling this link about the Maryland Chancellor’s reputed POV on UNC’s issues to our attention.
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@drgnslayr Unfortunately, the death penalty for one of the blueblood NCAA hoops teams isn’t going to happen I don’t think. When SMU was penalized they had several probations for misconduct and still cheated. To my memory, UNC has not received any such penalty thus far.
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In an America that runs torture prisons, funds ISIS through Saudi Arabia and Qatar, false flags with murder of innocents, and reputedly maintains pedophile rings for its leadership in government, media, corporations and churches, I SUSPECT many doubt UNC will be held accountable for easy classes.
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I don’t expect the death penalty for UNC… nor do I think it would be a good thing to happen.
But some kind of harsh punishment should be enforced.
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@drgnslayr What would be a harsh punishment in your eyes?
To me, at least 3 scholarships should be taken away for as many years as they know that they cheated and the same number of years of post-season ban.
Football should have 10 scholarships taken away for as many years they know they cheated and the same number of years on a post-season ban.
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I have mentioned before that UNC was sandbagging the process while the basketball team had a decent chance to win the Title. Now that it has, I can envision the process moving faster and UNC getting sanctions that do not involve forfeit of the Title and, depending on the severity of the sanctions, Coach Williams probably retiring on a high note and leaving the problems for the next coach.
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At this point I don’t expect UNC to receive any punishment that will fit what happened. The cat and mouse game both sides have played for who knows how long has made a mockery of the entire situation. This happens with every single investigation it seems.
UNC has some ground to stand on regardless of the outcome the NCAA may come to.
The classes were open to all, even if they had a majority of football or basketball players in them earning free credits and maintaining eligibility from them.
If the NCAA can prove that the athletic department, counselor’s, coaches, etc colluded to steer players towards these classes knowingly then the NCAA has a great case for handing out punishments. I think the UNC will continue to push deniability because they were accredited classes by the university, open to all, and they will continue to site jurisdiction of the NCAA here as they have at every step.
Wouldn’t the real punishment be for UNC to lose its accreditation as an educational institution? Wouldn’t that pretty much shut things down?
This case won’t be settled this year, or next year so the issue is not even close to a resolution. Lawyers are going to muddy this up as they already have.
Make no mistake UNC deserves punishment but is the punishment really justified by punishing the future students/athletes? What is a just punishment for what happened? I believe this is a one of a kind situation where the NCAA doesn’t have specific rules and guidelines to follow here. Again I am not defending UNC in any way, just pointing out that this case falls so much in the grey area of things. It seems like this will be a hard case for the NCAA to enforce with what will certainly end up in appeals or in a higher court.
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@drgnslayr This investigation may stretch back 3 years, but this garbage has been going on for over a decade.
McCants also told “Outside the Lines” that he even made the dean’s list in the spring of 2005 despite not attending any of his four classes for which he received straight-A grades. He said advisers and tutors who worked with the basketball program steered him to take the paper classes within the African-American Studies program.
I wholeheartedly support the President of Maryland’s candid comments. This is nothing new to UNC. This is a culture of abuse that was intended to continue until they got caught. Now that they’re caught, they deserve a maximum punishment.
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@KUSTEVE said in Question for @Jaybate...and anyone else that wants to chime in:
@JayHawkFanToo Roy learned the scam from Dean Smith, implemented it at KU, and brought the same guy that was running the scam to UNC to run the same deal. It’s one of Dean’s ideas Roy ran with. I highly doubt with the amount of heat that has been generated by this story they could simply blame KU, and walk off untouched. There would be a lynch mob over that one. The NCAA will end up classifying it as an academic problem, not an athletic problem, and slap their hands. It might take them years to get to that point. It will not include KU.
There were “independent” study courses in Roy’s time with one or two select faculty that simply required a paper for the semester. If I’m recalling accurately, mainly in African studies and maybe Criminal Justice departments. Believe a Duke issue/expose was tied to Dept of Criminal Justice.
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I agree that this involved systemic collusion of a crime within the UNC administration level.
I would like to see them receive a very harsh penalty. But I don’t want to see innocent people hurt anymore than necessary.
The question is… how can they be punished without hurting the innocent people? That not only includes current players, but also signed recruits. Whatever the penalty is, those players should get a free pass to transfer without losing a year.
And then there is the ACC conference. As much as I’d like to see every team in that conference take a hit (only for my own selfish personal reasons) it really isn’t fair to get them caught up in this anymore than necessary. These other teams were also victimized by the cheating at UNC.
I think one of the fairest penalties would be a financial punishment. Go back over those years and take a fat slice of their revenues.
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@drgnslayr The only thing is, taking money punishes the fans and students because all UNC will do to make up the revenue is charge more for everything.
I would even be open for a future punishment. In 5 years, you will have 3 less scholarships for 5 more seasons and be banned from post season play during that time.
That way all future recruits know what they are getting into.
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I believe a financial punishment could include provisions preventing tuition increases And they probably have a Board of Regents that determine rates anyways. So it isn’t a simple case of raising fees to pay for it. UNC is like Kansas… and has several revenue streams, including endowments.
Heck… if I was a UNC grad I would be tempted to sue the university over this. Their entire academics reputation is at stake and that bleeds down to damages suffered by every student.
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Just one more thing to consider at UNC -
Proposed bill would force North Carolina, N.C. State to leave ACC due to boycott
Kind of a laugher because no way this bill can hold water when tested in federal court. Just politics as usual…
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@drgnslayr Can you believe that is what taxpayer money gets wasted on?
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Unfortunately… yeah… I can believe it. And I’m not surprised the black plague is more popular than politicians.
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Why would it go to Federal Court? it is a State issue that would be ruled by the State. Remember the State of California has a ban so State Schools cannot play in Kansas and a couple of other states. Legislatures holds the purse strings and they can mandate pretty much what they want. Worst case, it would end up in the State’s Supreme Court and not Federal Court.
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Unique cases like this usually end up in federal court because of their magnitude. The impact of this case reaches far beyond the State of North Carolina. It would be almost certain there would be lawsuits from other states and it would end up in federal court.
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I respectfully disagree. The magnitude of the case does not determine where the case is tried but who has jurisdiction, and in this case, it only affects State Schools so it would end up in court in North Carolina. The feds did not get involved when California banned State Schools from playing in other states…and California is considerably larger than North Carolina.
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Good points… until other states jump into it. Then it must be decided in federal court.
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Loving the discussion on federal jurisdiction! You all raise lots of concerns that have taken thousands of courts millions of words to explore and not settle yet!
In my own view, it would depend on who is suing whom, the potential third parties involved, and – most specifically – what the heck the lawsuit is based on.
I can see a UNC drop out of the ACC leading to a major damages suit by the conference and other members seeking to recover lost NCAA tourney fees and advanced TV fees, plus any amount due for leaving the conference. That would certainly be federal due to diversity of the parties and amount involved. Unless arbitration clauses kicked it out of court.
Or UNC could sue in state court for a declaratory judgment holding that they have a right to withdraw due to contract abridgement or untenable changed conditions or even statutory requirements imposed by NC legislature. That would get removed to federal court by any out-of-state defendants or possibly by unnamed parties seeking to intervene because they would be the real parties at interest in a case. (Example: UNC sues ACC, hqrtered in Greensboro, in NC state court to allow withdrawal, but other ACC members from NY to Florida intervene as defendants and remove to federal court raising counterclaim for damages in millions of $.)
Just 2 examples. Many variations are possible, and, as always, you get what you pay for in legal thinking on this Board.
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Thank you for the very clear explanation.
Could Kansas sue California for the ban it imposed on state schools? Interstate commerce could be invoked so it would likely go to Federal Court, right?
California almost passed a law making the entire state a sanctuary state but the threat of the Federal Government intervening and holding Federal funds stopped the process…for the time being. Interesting how a change in administration has changed the legal landscape as well including when the Federal government would or would not get involved, almost an 180 degree change.
I personally believe the Federal government should stay out of all state/local business and let the local governments/courts settle these local issues…unless they try to override federal laws.
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Suits directly between states are always federal, I believe, and actually the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction over those cases. (I think they usually get sent to lower courts for fact-finding.) These don’t come up very often. One area where they have, as I recall, is fights among western states over water rights from the Colorado River.
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@JayHawkFanToo I also respectfully disagree about the NC bathroom bill. Roe v Wade got to supreme court, so did other hot button issues. This has all the potential to be a very heated topic of discrimination. I’m not saying it will get there, just that it has the potential to. Its completely mental. But, it is discrimination and given the right circumstances or the right incident, right case. Yah, it could get that far.
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In spirit, I sure like your statement about the feds staying out of states’ issues.
This is a topic that resonates with a lot of Americans, and it should.
I definitely don’t claim to have any level of expertise on civics issues… but I sure marvel, at times, over the depth of our entire judicial and governmental systems. We do have plenty of checks and balances to keep our democratic republic from derailing.
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I will not comment on the merits of the bathroom law other than to say that it willl most certainly get to the Supreme Court since it involves a group of people not restricted to one state and would constitute a class action.
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Multiple states (including Texas where future Super Bowls, Final Fours, and other major sporting events are scheduled) have a law similar to North Carolina’s HB2.
That will be a primary factor in the Supreme Court making a ruling on this issue.
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@jaybate-1.0 Ha! Torture prisons, funding questionable 3rd parties, etc…basically you are saying you/we would rather not (should rather not) know all the dirty business of a superpower? Because its nothing new…is it?
Would we/should we expect this superpower to suddenly take a Puritanical moral stance in dealing with the likes of Putin, Assad, Iran, Isis, NKorea?
Does the ostrich-method make such intl destabilizing problems go away?
What was that phrase Teddy Roosevelt said over a hundred yrs ago? Why is it still relevant? Because human nature has not changed, thats why. And the awful periodic displays of innate dark side of human nature, from these intl destabilizing entities simply demand an appropriate response, & one that can be understood by the intended recipient (transgressor in question).
We cannot throw soundbites out without context.
How about I throw out the documented FACTS that the United States prior to the dropping of 2 atomic bombs on Japan, had actually killed even more people (>150,000) PER raid, with the firebombing (napalm) of major Japanese cities, one by one. Each atomic bomb killed 70-90k outright, and double that in the next few weeks, while the firebombing got the 120-150,000 within 2-3 hrs. So, is that 700k, 800k, or over 1million mostly civilians killed by the USAF?
My point is this: how did this nation, supposedly during an era of greater consensus on morality, an era of the WW2 generation, as well as a strongly prevalent sense of Christian & moral “righteousness”…actually come to grips with the ethics of the willful mass destruction of civilians? Because it was indeed subject of great debate, then, & some of those debates have persisted to this day.
But America DID proceed. We did unleash that sufferring on a then-enemy populace. It is fact.
I personally cannot respect the ignorance of history, nor the ignorance of human nature’s innate tendencies, by the subsequent generations in the last 50yrs. People have mass media available to see, yet cannot see what is happening around the world. Now, it has started to happen to W. Europe. Its even happening in the United States.
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What is the topic about?
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I can’t recall.
But I was a might disillusioned about how the March Carney Finals were officiated, simultaneously discouraged about Easygate having seemed to have receded into the ethers, and also kind of disappointed that Roy appeared to have become more a part of the apparent problems with D1, than a part of those seeking fix those problems. But then I heard the NCAA decision making about the reputed Easygate was still in process, so I decided to go into a 4-corners stall and wait and see for awhile.
Hope that helps.
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@chriz said in Question for @Jaybate...and anyone else that wants to chime in:
Why does Self have the same Elite Eight record as the Royals do so far this season?
The Royals are now 6-6. Just realized. Come on Bill, you got this!
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@jaybate-1.0 When they first started the scam, it was athletes only. Then some diabolical ingenious thinking led them to realize if they offered the fake classes to regular students, then it could be argued this was an “academic” problem instead of a problem with athletics. No probation…no death penalty. And now we are in, as you put it so succinctly, in the 4 corners phase. How to cheat out in the open… how to play the system, even if it makes a complete mockery of college basketball, by Roy Williams.
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Just not going to be too harsh on Roy, still like him. I became a KU person in every sense in 1989. Yes that means I missed the whole Danny88NC, sadly. Roy had his quirks, but look at his W/L record.
The most impressive thing about UNCs win is this was a very unimpressive UNC team. They almost shot bad enough to lose. We know all about that ourselves. But after all these yrs, Roy brought a team to the F4 capable of grinding out a W.
Could care less about zags, yes Few is great, done great job, yada, yada, but they do nothing for me. KY would have beat zags good.
Self needs to figure out his system’s O and D yoyo in E8–the fact that its affected several of his rosters points to system level issue. Showing up with a balanced team helps, as well as one D-competent. He had neither this year, statistically speaking. We saw how far “masking weaknesses” got us. Or we can blame fate/bad luck about some wrist ligaments, & Bragg is a convenient scapegoat, even moreso then BGreene or Perry last yr, for those inclined to snipe…
