Question for @Jaybate...and anyone else that wants to chime in
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@Lulufulu I’ve mixed feelings about Roy Williams. I credit him with doing a fantastic job with the Jayhawks during his 15 year tenure. At the time I did not realize that he was committed not to recruit the East Coast…a thing which now stinks of chicanery with his N. Carolina mentor Dean Smith. He left some dandy players behind at KU, but chose not to jump early, at least til after Heinrich and Collison had gone pro. so, from one point of view, he left Miles, Langford, Simien in the lurch. Of course, we now know that those kids were placed in very capable hands of Roy’s splendid replacement. But those remaining very accomplished players were faced with big adjustments. As I recall, Bill Self eventually had to intervene to stop their continued telephone contact with Roy. So then Roy inherited a team and program which was caught up in major academic scandal, the degree of which did not hit the headlines until years after his ascencion to the NC hoops helm. Good Ol’ Boy Roy he still seems, at least his surface appeal. But down deep are buried some questionable character flaws. That’s my two cents. By the way, Lulu, Roy is not a KU alum…unless your meant faculty alum.
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Roy has done a remarkable job at getting great players and keeping them 2-3 years. He has a great blend of talent and always lots of long, athletic talent. He has done better than Cal (the king of OAD), better than coach K (who remains the gold standard), better than Izzo (great in the tourney and D), better than Coach Self (my favorite)…and all the others over the past few years.
Roy’s teams the last two years were one long three point shot away from double back-to-back titles, like UF did a few years ago, very impressive. This year’s team had almost all the same players on the court as last year. Wow!
And they did it without making threes. They did not need to shot well to win it all because they rebound, run, have length, play decent D (not outstanding but solid), have great bb players with bb bodies. And they play within his style and like each other.
The man can really recruit and keep his guys and develop them too. He has a ‘player type’ which is fast, lean, long and did we say ‘fast’. He is not the best game time coach but he puts his guys in a position to make a play. and win. One and only one philosophy: go fast and if that does not work, go faster!
He lets his guys play (three time-outs left in his pocket at the end of this year’s title game…while Coach Few called two crucial ones in the last minute and messed up his team’s rhythm and got nothing from ‘running his stuff’). BTW, our coach is the best for using time outs for his advantage I have ever seen: when to use them and out of bounds plays are great year after year.
The bad feeling from some KU fans b/c coach Roy was at KU for 14 years and never won a title, and in 14 years at UNC he has now won three, is not fair to him and reflects a poor understanding of the game, and the man. Roy still loves KU and always will.
I do not like coach Roy as well as I like coach Self, as a man of character, as a game time coach or as a representative of the, university. But the man can really recruit, pull those emotional strings and keep guys for 2-4 years… He is a great coach.
I LOVE his model of TAD (two and three year players), less OAD and less transfers in and out of the program, very impressive. Of course, UNC wears a better brand of shoe
and maybe is not very rigorous about getting his guys to go to class…but he is not a sleaze ball or a poor coach at all. He loves his players like all the great ones do. He sticks to his style and to his guns. He is a winner. We are honored to have had Coach Roy for 14 wonderful years, and to hand the program to Coach Self in good shape (except for a few minor violations … boys will be boys).Coach Self will win at least three more championships over the next 14 years if he stays that long. He is a great HOF coach and is much younger than Roy. I am waiting to see if the more open style on O, longer quick twitch athletes, bigger guards, NBA talent surrounded by 4-5 year guys, playing Self D.
Rock Chalk!
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Roy is a very capable coach… without question.
I’ve stated my opinion about Roy for years now. I lightened up on him a bit after '08 and he broke the ice with his Jayhawk chest sticker.
But I can’t let go of his fatal flaw of not recruiting out east. And if our US Supreme Court made decisions respecting anti-trust laws on the books instead of bending over backwards to support big business… and our US DOJ then enforced our laws… I’m not so sure Roy wouldn’t be in deep deep trouble for violating anti-trust laws. I realize he was representing the university instead of a large corporation, but business interests surround college coaching.
The second problem I have/had with Roy relates to his ability to insert his foot into his mouth… something Bill very rarely does. Roy should have never thrown it out there that he wouldn’t recruit east. That was very damaging to Kansas basketball at that time and into the future. It pegged Jayhawk basketball as being BELOW UNC basketball (status wise). It not only hurt us during his years for not landing east coast players, it also probably hurt us recruiting players from the rest of America because players have always want to go where they can win.
Let me put it this way… imagine today… Bill out there recruiting and he announces he won’t recruit out east. That would be devastating for the reasons I stated above. It also wouldn’t fly now because the administration at Kansas… from the ADs office on up… has a much higher esteem level than back during the Roy days. We really have to realize how Larry left our program… not exactly on a high note!
College sports programs are not just about today and tomorrow… success is about time… MIGRATING to a positive structure, from the water boys right up to the president of the university.
I am convinced we have made more moves to climb to the top of college basketball since Bill Self has come to Kansas than any moves we have made in the past. Roy did help stabilize our program after Larry left it in tough shape. But Roy didn’t make any of the big steps Bill has made to help guarantee success in our future.
I believe Bill is staying at Kansas for a long, long time. But if he does leave soon, if he leaves on good terms, we will be smart to thank him for years into the future… because we will be gaining benefits for at least a few decades.
I can’t think of any other Kansas coach that has done anything near what Bill has done for Kansas basketball and it’s future!
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I had the privilege of meeting Roy Williams once, when he was still coaching at KU. I have always kind of prided myself on being a good judge of character, and I believe that, unless Roy is the world’s best actor, he is a man of good moral character and is a genuine good guy. Now that I think about it, one of the many hardcore KSU fans that I work with told me that Roy spoke at their church one time and hung around for about two hours signing autographs and just visiting with people. He was so impressed with him I think he about traded in his purple for crimson and blue. This guy is over 60 and has been a life long KU hater and he ranted and raved about Roy. I have great admiration for Bill Snyder, but I don’t carry on about him like this guy did about Roy.
Yes, it sucks big time that we almost always seem to crash way too early in the big dance and I have mixed emotions about UNC. At that point in the season I think much of it boils down to pure old fashioned LUCK. Dadgummit. One bad turnover. A couple of missed free throws. A twisted ankle - whatever. And sometimes teams have streaks of luck, good and bad. Right now, we kind of have the bad streak going and UNC has the good streak going. If you call getting beat on a last second hail mary to lose the National Championship “good luck”. But at least they got to that game. Don’t worry, our turn could be coming soon. We could make the championship game 5 years in a row any time now.
Rock Chalk!!
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@DoubleDD said:
I think the real hate is that Roy has now won 3 NC’s at UNC. I sit here spooked by what I’m about to say next.
Are the Jayhawks cursed when it comes to winning it all? Are we KU fans just doomed when it comes to tournament time?
I mean we have a great Coach. We get a nice share of good to great players. KU knocks on the door of greatness almost every year.
What gives? Did we sell our soul to get Wilt to leave the East Coast and come to God’s Country? None of this makes sense.
Maybe it’s just us fans thinking our Jayhawks are more than they really are. That Coach fools us KU fans by doing such a good job of covering up the weaknesses of his teams from year to year.
When you love a team/School/Program so much it hurts and makes one scratch their head when a team like Oregon made KU look so ordinary.
I don’t know? I’m just rambling.
Exactly the type of thoughts that go through my head, wondering if we’re just butt-hurt KU fans. But why? Why does Self have the same Elite Eight record as the Royals do so far this season? Why does it take Roy leaving KU to win titles?
That’s the part that sucks. We have a better coach than Roy and Roy is winning more titles. And it seems to have taken his leaving KU.
And that really sucks.
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A title will cure all ills. Now, lets go get that Shakur dude, and win a title.
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@Lulufulu I think it’s best for now, if I let go of the subject of Roy and the officiating in the Finals. Few here seemed to see what appeared asymmetric no calls, so I’m comfortable letting go of it for now.
I still think Roy has been a great coach. Once he got to UNC, where he could get a shot at recruiting ALL of Nike’s summer game talent across the entire country, not just the west half, as was reputed to be his case at KU, he started winning rings the same as other top coaches of elite EST programs with that same edge.
It appears increasingly likely that being at a nonEST program, and without full access to Nike/AirJordan summer game players across the entire country, one’s odds of winning multiple rings, or even any, sharply diminishes.
Yes, my respect for Roy has declined as Roy’s apparent ties to the apparent petroshoeco-agency complex and the regime dynamics it appears able to impose on D1 have increasingly come to my attention over many years.
But that maybe the stuff of another post.
Rock Chalk!
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@jaybate-1.0 Sorry I can’t comment. I don’t generally watch basketball games that don’t directly involve KU. Life is too busy for me to watch UNC play basketball. Now if KU is playing a meaningless game in Italy I’ll have to find a way to watch…
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Let’s be careful with what we say. One of the individuals at the center of the scandal worked with Coach Williams at KU and went to UNC with him. I really don’t know that anything like this happened at KU, but what is there to stop him from offering to throw KU under the bus with false allegations in exchange for leniency for himself and UNC? The NCAA is really not a friend of KU and they would jump to the chance of going after a program as big as KU.
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This is interesting. Can the KU fan base, fans of one of the most dominant college basketball programs ever, really have an inferiority complex? Only 3 titles to boot compared to the 5 by duke? 6 by Unc and 8 by UK? That in itself is why each tournament loss hits ku fans so hard every year. Another year gone for us to catch up while a program we compare ourselves to adds another trophy to the mantle. In reality Roy left to the enemy and widened the gap between us and the program’s we envy. Instead of winning 3 titles at KU he won them at a blue blood that already had more titles than ku. A harsh reality we have to grapple with.
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I’m not worried about Roy’s accomplishments- glad he finally learned to play half court offense. As a KU fan, I prefer to run my own race. I don’t care what UNC is doing- I want to see us back in the national championship game. We’ve been close the last two years. It’s coming.
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@JayHawkFanToo Roy learned the scam from Dean Smith, implemented it at KU, and brought the same guy that was running the scam to UNC to run the same deal. It’s one of Dean’s ideas Roy ran with. I highly doubt with the amount of heat that has been generated by this story they could simply blame KU, and walk off untouched. There would be a lynch mob over that one. The NCAA will end up classifying it as an academic problem, not an athletic problem, and slap their hands. It might take them years to get to that point. It will not include KU.
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@jaybate-1.0 I respect your position on this topic and your views on KU basketball, on Roy and on all of college ball in general. That’s why I asked. So if you need to let it go, then consider it done.
I didn’t watch the title game. I rarely do watch the title game unless KU is in it.
But, I do believe that the East coast bias is real.
We’ll put this up in a little compartment for later. I’m sure this topic will come around again at a better time.
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@JayHawkFanToo Coach Self has been prescient in his ability to manage KU hoops as its leader and coach since he arrived here. But, if what you say could happen and Coach Self got pushed up against the ropes, do you not think he would fight with everything he has and that he would win? I sure as hell do.
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@KUSTEVE said I want to see us back in the national championship game. We’ve been close the last two years. It’s coming.
I agree dude! I was just thinking the same thing my self earlier today. Two straight elite 8s. We are Soooo close. I’m betting the house that Bill gets KU to another title within 5 years.
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I really don’t think Coach Williams would ever do this, he has been pretty loyal and respectful of KU. On the other hand, the other individual could do it, particularly if the word came down from the top to save UNC at all cost. The president of the University of Maryland indicated UNC should receive the death penalty…this is very serious…and desperate people do desperate things.
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We don’t need to get too deep in the academics scandal at UNC. Let’s let the President at Maryland do our talking for us -
Maryland president suggests ‘death penalty’ for UNC over academic investigation
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Thanks for calling this link about the Maryland Chancellor’s reputed POV on UNC’s issues to our attention.
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@drgnslayr Unfortunately, the death penalty for one of the blueblood NCAA hoops teams isn’t going to happen I don’t think. When SMU was penalized they had several probations for misconduct and still cheated. To my memory, UNC has not received any such penalty thus far.
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In an America that runs torture prisons, funds ISIS through Saudi Arabia and Qatar, false flags with murder of innocents, and reputedly maintains pedophile rings for its leadership in government, media, corporations and churches, I SUSPECT many doubt UNC will be held accountable for easy classes.
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I don’t expect the death penalty for UNC… nor do I think it would be a good thing to happen.
But some kind of harsh punishment should be enforced.
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@drgnslayr What would be a harsh punishment in your eyes?
To me, at least 3 scholarships should be taken away for as many years as they know that they cheated and the same number of years of post-season ban.
Football should have 10 scholarships taken away for as many years they know they cheated and the same number of years on a post-season ban.
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I have mentioned before that UNC was sandbagging the process while the basketball team had a decent chance to win the Title. Now that it has, I can envision the process moving faster and UNC getting sanctions that do not involve forfeit of the Title and, depending on the severity of the sanctions, Coach Williams probably retiring on a high note and leaving the problems for the next coach.
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At this point I don’t expect UNC to receive any punishment that will fit what happened. The cat and mouse game both sides have played for who knows how long has made a mockery of the entire situation. This happens with every single investigation it seems.
UNC has some ground to stand on regardless of the outcome the NCAA may come to.
The classes were open to all, even if they had a majority of football or basketball players in them earning free credits and maintaining eligibility from them.
If the NCAA can prove that the athletic department, counselor’s, coaches, etc colluded to steer players towards these classes knowingly then the NCAA has a great case for handing out punishments. I think the UNC will continue to push deniability because they were accredited classes by the university, open to all, and they will continue to site jurisdiction of the NCAA here as they have at every step.
Wouldn’t the real punishment be for UNC to lose its accreditation as an educational institution? Wouldn’t that pretty much shut things down?
This case won’t be settled this year, or next year so the issue is not even close to a resolution. Lawyers are going to muddy this up as they already have.
Make no mistake UNC deserves punishment but is the punishment really justified by punishing the future students/athletes? What is a just punishment for what happened? I believe this is a one of a kind situation where the NCAA doesn’t have specific rules and guidelines to follow here. Again I am not defending UNC in any way, just pointing out that this case falls so much in the grey area of things. It seems like this will be a hard case for the NCAA to enforce with what will certainly end up in appeals or in a higher court.
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@drgnslayr This investigation may stretch back 3 years, but this garbage has been going on for over a decade.
McCants also told “Outside the Lines” that he even made the dean’s list in the spring of 2005 despite not attending any of his four classes for which he received straight-A grades. He said advisers and tutors who worked with the basketball program steered him to take the paper classes within the African-American Studies program.
I wholeheartedly support the President of Maryland’s candid comments. This is nothing new to UNC. This is a culture of abuse that was intended to continue until they got caught. Now that they’re caught, they deserve a maximum punishment.
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@KUSTEVE said in Question for @Jaybate...and anyone else that wants to chime in:
@JayHawkFanToo Roy learned the scam from Dean Smith, implemented it at KU, and brought the same guy that was running the scam to UNC to run the same deal. It’s one of Dean’s ideas Roy ran with. I highly doubt with the amount of heat that has been generated by this story they could simply blame KU, and walk off untouched. There would be a lynch mob over that one. The NCAA will end up classifying it as an academic problem, not an athletic problem, and slap their hands. It might take them years to get to that point. It will not include KU.
There were “independent” study courses in Roy’s time with one or two select faculty that simply required a paper for the semester. If I’m recalling accurately, mainly in African studies and maybe Criminal Justice departments. Believe a Duke issue/expose was tied to Dept of Criminal Justice.
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I agree that this involved systemic collusion of a crime within the UNC administration level.
I would like to see them receive a very harsh penalty. But I don’t want to see innocent people hurt anymore than necessary.
The question is… how can they be punished without hurting the innocent people? That not only includes current players, but also signed recruits. Whatever the penalty is, those players should get a free pass to transfer without losing a year.
And then there is the ACC conference. As much as I’d like to see every team in that conference take a hit (only for my own selfish personal reasons) it really isn’t fair to get them caught up in this anymore than necessary. These other teams were also victimized by the cheating at UNC.
I think one of the fairest penalties would be a financial punishment. Go back over those years and take a fat slice of their revenues.
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@drgnslayr The only thing is, taking money punishes the fans and students because all UNC will do to make up the revenue is charge more for everything.
I would even be open for a future punishment. In 5 years, you will have 3 less scholarships for 5 more seasons and be banned from post season play during that time.
That way all future recruits know what they are getting into.
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I believe a financial punishment could include provisions preventing tuition increases And they probably have a Board of Regents that determine rates anyways. So it isn’t a simple case of raising fees to pay for it. UNC is like Kansas… and has several revenue streams, including endowments.
Heck… if I was a UNC grad I would be tempted to sue the university over this. Their entire academics reputation is at stake and that bleeds down to damages suffered by every student.
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Just one more thing to consider at UNC -
Proposed bill would force North Carolina, N.C. State to leave ACC due to boycott
Kind of a laugher because no way this bill can hold water when tested in federal court. Just politics as usual…
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@drgnslayr Can you believe that is what taxpayer money gets wasted on?
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Unfortunately… yeah… I can believe it. And I’m not surprised the black plague is more popular than politicians.
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Why would it go to Federal Court? it is a State issue that would be ruled by the State. Remember the State of California has a ban so State Schools cannot play in Kansas and a couple of other states. Legislatures holds the purse strings and they can mandate pretty much what they want. Worst case, it would end up in the State’s Supreme Court and not Federal Court.
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Unique cases like this usually end up in federal court because of their magnitude. The impact of this case reaches far beyond the State of North Carolina. It would be almost certain there would be lawsuits from other states and it would end up in federal court.
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I respectfully disagree. The magnitude of the case does not determine where the case is tried but who has jurisdiction, and in this case, it only affects State Schools so it would end up in court in North Carolina. The feds did not get involved when California banned State Schools from playing in other states…and California is considerably larger than North Carolina.
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Good points… until other states jump into it. Then it must be decided in federal court.
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Loving the discussion on federal jurisdiction! You all raise lots of concerns that have taken thousands of courts millions of words to explore and not settle yet!
In my own view, it would depend on who is suing whom, the potential third parties involved, and – most specifically – what the heck the lawsuit is based on.
I can see a UNC drop out of the ACC leading to a major damages suit by the conference and other members seeking to recover lost NCAA tourney fees and advanced TV fees, plus any amount due for leaving the conference. That would certainly be federal due to diversity of the parties and amount involved. Unless arbitration clauses kicked it out of court.
Or UNC could sue in state court for a declaratory judgment holding that they have a right to withdraw due to contract abridgement or untenable changed conditions or even statutory requirements imposed by NC legislature. That would get removed to federal court by any out-of-state defendants or possibly by unnamed parties seeking to intervene because they would be the real parties at interest in a case. (Example: UNC sues ACC, hqrtered in Greensboro, in NC state court to allow withdrawal, but other ACC members from NY to Florida intervene as defendants and remove to federal court raising counterclaim for damages in millions of $.)
Just 2 examples. Many variations are possible, and, as always, you get what you pay for in legal thinking on this Board.
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Thank you for the very clear explanation.
Could Kansas sue California for the ban it imposed on state schools? Interstate commerce could be invoked so it would likely go to Federal Court, right?
California almost passed a law making the entire state a sanctuary state but the threat of the Federal Government intervening and holding Federal funds stopped the process…for the time being. Interesting how a change in administration has changed the legal landscape as well including when the Federal government would or would not get involved, almost an 180 degree change.
I personally believe the Federal government should stay out of all state/local business and let the local governments/courts settle these local issues…unless they try to override federal laws.
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Suits directly between states are always federal, I believe, and actually the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction over those cases. (I think they usually get sent to lower courts for fact-finding.) These don’t come up very often. One area where they have, as I recall, is fights among western states over water rights from the Colorado River.
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@JayHawkFanToo I also respectfully disagree about the NC bathroom bill. Roe v Wade got to supreme court, so did other hot button issues. This has all the potential to be a very heated topic of discrimination. I’m not saying it will get there, just that it has the potential to. Its completely mental. But, it is discrimination and given the right circumstances or the right incident, right case. Yah, it could get that far.
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In spirit, I sure like your statement about the feds staying out of states’ issues.
This is a topic that resonates with a lot of Americans, and it should.
I definitely don’t claim to have any level of expertise on civics issues… but I sure marvel, at times, over the depth of our entire judicial and governmental systems. We do have plenty of checks and balances to keep our democratic republic from derailing.
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I will not comment on the merits of the bathroom law other than to say that it willl most certainly get to the Supreme Court since it involves a group of people not restricted to one state and would constitute a class action.
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Multiple states (including Texas where future Super Bowls, Final Fours, and other major sporting events are scheduled) have a law similar to North Carolina’s HB2.
That will be a primary factor in the Supreme Court making a ruling on this issue.
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@jaybate-1.0 Ha! Torture prisons, funding questionable 3rd parties, etc…basically you are saying you/we would rather not (should rather not) know all the dirty business of a superpower? Because its nothing new…is it?
Would we/should we expect this superpower to suddenly take a Puritanical moral stance in dealing with the likes of Putin, Assad, Iran, Isis, NKorea?
Does the ostrich-method make such intl destabilizing problems go away?
What was that phrase Teddy Roosevelt said over a hundred yrs ago? Why is it still relevant? Because human nature has not changed, thats why. And the awful periodic displays of innate dark side of human nature, from these intl destabilizing entities simply demand an appropriate response, & one that can be understood by the intended recipient (transgressor in question).
We cannot throw soundbites out without context.
How about I throw out the documented FACTS that the United States prior to the dropping of 2 atomic bombs on Japan, had actually killed even more people (>150,000) PER raid, with the firebombing (napalm) of major Japanese cities, one by one. Each atomic bomb killed 70-90k outright, and double that in the next few weeks, while the firebombing got the 120-150,000 within 2-3 hrs. So, is that 700k, 800k, or over 1million mostly civilians killed by the USAF?
My point is this: how did this nation, supposedly during an era of greater consensus on morality, an era of the WW2 generation, as well as a strongly prevalent sense of Christian & moral “righteousness”…actually come to grips with the ethics of the willful mass destruction of civilians? Because it was indeed subject of great debate, then, & some of those debates have persisted to this day.
But America DID proceed. We did unleash that sufferring on a then-enemy populace. It is fact.
I personally cannot respect the ignorance of history, nor the ignorance of human nature’s innate tendencies, by the subsequent generations in the last 50yrs. People have mass media available to see, yet cannot see what is happening around the world. Now, it has started to happen to W. Europe. Its even happening in the United States.
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What is the topic about?
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I can’t recall.
But I was a might disillusioned about how the March Carney Finals were officiated, simultaneously discouraged about Easygate having seemed to have receded into the ethers, and also kind of disappointed that Roy appeared to have become more a part of the apparent problems with D1, than a part of those seeking fix those problems. But then I heard the NCAA decision making about the reputed Easygate was still in process, so I decided to go into a 4-corners stall and wait and see for awhile.
Hope that helps.
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@chriz said in Question for @Jaybate...and anyone else that wants to chime in:
Why does Self have the same Elite Eight record as the Royals do so far this season?
The Royals are now 6-6. Just realized. Come on Bill, you got this!
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@jaybate-1.0 When they first started the scam, it was athletes only. Then some diabolical ingenious thinking led them to realize if they offered the fake classes to regular students, then it could be argued this was an “academic” problem instead of a problem with athletics. No probation…no death penalty. And now we are in, as you put it so succinctly, in the 4 corners phase. How to cheat out in the open… how to play the system, even if it makes a complete mockery of college basketball, by Roy Williams.
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Just not going to be too harsh on Roy, still like him. I became a KU person in every sense in 1989. Yes that means I missed the whole Danny88NC, sadly. Roy had his quirks, but look at his W/L record.
The most impressive thing about UNCs win is this was a very unimpressive UNC team. They almost shot bad enough to lose. We know all about that ourselves. But after all these yrs, Roy brought a team to the F4 capable of grinding out a W.
Could care less about zags, yes Few is great, done great job, yada, yada, but they do nothing for me. KY would have beat zags good.
Self needs to figure out his system’s O and D yoyo in E8–the fact that its affected several of his rosters points to system level issue. Showing up with a balanced team helps, as well as one D-competent. He had neither this year, statistically speaking. We saw how far “masking weaknesses” got us. Or we can blame fate/bad luck about some wrist ligaments, & Bragg is a convenient scapegoat, even moreso then BGreene or Perry last yr, for those inclined to snipe…
