Lagerald vs Svi
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It sounds as if Self really is open to playing a 4 guard lineup.
Saying its dictated because of personnel is a reflection of just how far away Coleby & Udoka are from being reliable options in the post. That is the underlying message I got from him being so open about this flexibility in his offense
Going to be an interesting season.
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Self has to have the 4-guard option. That doesn’t mean he will necessarily use it.
If Lucas and Bragg can both play 30 minutes and Udoka / Coleby share 20, then for that game the 4-guard option is…optional.
Those are ifs.
There are ifs in the other direction: if there is foul trouble; if there is injury trouble; if Udoka / Coleby don’t come through. In that case playing 4 guards becomes a necessity.
I am sure playing small would be pleasing to the eye and to the won/loss record.
I am also sure it would mean more minutes for Frank and Devonte. How many of you want that?
Please, bigs, carry your weight!
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The 4 guard lineup could also be a consideration because of the makeup of the Big-12 this year. Down league for bigs, lots of guard oriented teams.
Maybe he’s taking some pointers from what happened to us against Villanova. Beaten by a bunch of guards/wings and 1 post player. He’s seen enough of ISU’s action to know a guard heavy rotation with the right personnel works. We have that in theory this year.
The other side of it is getting his 5 best players on the court. Jackson & Svi or Jackson & Vick on the court seems like an offensive paradise paired with Bragg! Defensively, eh I’ll wait to see if, in fact, it does happen.
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The formula never changes.
As usual, guard your man, help, protect, feed the post, and don’t let it stick keep you in the rotation.
Stealing possessions and making open looks get you more minutes
Vick and Svi are fighting for the same backup minutes at 2 and 3.
Self will juggle Frank and Devonte at 1 90% of the time.
The best ball handler between Vick and Svi will get trained in the 10% of pg minutes for the rainy day of injury to Frank, or Devonte.
Svi will probably be the guy if equal, because of seniority and experience.
But Vick was way young last season in age and could make a nonlinear leap in neural net grow in and steal the job because Self needs a long ball handler/defender for occasional matchups!
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@BeddieKU23 I read you with great respect as always, but what about Frank’s minutes and his degree of nickeduptness in March?
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@jayhawkeyes I honestly don’t think we will see Lucas and Udoka on the floor together very much if not at all. These are two really good players that do not complement each other very well. Neither is very mobile (guarding a quick 4, having to switch a screen or defend screen and roll) and neither is that great of a passer (I haven’t seen Udoka play very much yet). Both of them could create their own shots down low, rebound and set a heck of a screen. But I just don’t see them playing together very often
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Very good point Mason had a hobbled body in March. Unless he finds a way to take less of a punishment while having the same impact on the floor,we are probably at the mercy of his health.
It’s his last go-around, he should know that he can be aggressive, get into the lane and not take as much of a punishment as he’s taken in the past. Something like a controlled chaos would help him.
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@Statmachine Nice video, but good grief, don’t those refs know what a carry violation is?
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I think “dictated by personnel” is more of a reflection of the fact that the most talented players on this roster are Jackson, Graham, Bragg, Mason and Svi. Vick, Lucas, Udoka, Coleby, Lightfoot, etc. can all play, but four of the best five guys on this roster are perimeter players, maybe 5 of the best 6, but definitely 5 of the best 7.
Given that, you have to consider playing four of those guys at once, especially since Jackson and Svi are both big enough to handle some 4’s, and Vick can easily slide 1-3 against most college teams. It’s not a lineup I would show a lot, but it’s a lineup that has merit because you have to get your best players on the floor together and a lineup of Mason-Graham-Svi-Jackson-Bragg is arguably the best five KU has. I think Lucas and the other bigs will bring something to the table, but the best group is that group of five I listed.
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Frank doesn’t have 10 extra games to play like last year, so I think he’ll be fresher than last year. Vick and Svi are the real deal. I’d think Vick would be a little more adept at running point, but Svi is no slouch, either. What a great advantage to have 5 good ball handlers on the perimeter.
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“Could we see Bragg at the 3 if Udoka is in with Lucas?”
Wow… going big! Might that be as possible as us going small?
Everyone in here knows I’m an x-axis, small ball directed guy. I like the talk about going with a 4-guard offense SOME of the time.
Right now the talk is about a 4-guard offense.
Here is what I see. I believe we WILL see a 4-guard offense early in the year (at times). I think is to check out the possibilities of what we can do with 4 guards. It can only work if our 5 does a great job of protecting the basket. This may be in the mix because we need to give Vick and Svi plenty of floor action. We need them to be seasoned by year’s end. This is an effort to “coach for March.” We often have blasted Bill for not planning for March. This idea of a 4-guard offense can help us in two ways: first, it helps give Vick and Svi plenty of PT immediately and that will help us down the stretch. Second, it will give us another option in games that aren’t going well. A 4-guard offense puts lots of speed and energy on the floor for us.
We’ve already discussed BAD BALL returning. We don’t know what our offense will do this year. When we do go stale, it seems like energy is often the problem. A 4-guard offense is a way to add energy on the court.
Looking at it even a bit differently… might this be Bill getting influenced by the ghost of El Mayor from ISU? When we talk about “going small” we are actually still keeping up with the height of most teams. But we are putting in big guards as forwards. Might this create match-up opportunities for us? Heck yes! I can see us running isolation plays for guys like Josh or Svi in the low post.
My concern is the possible “thinness” of our backcourt. We are missing that extra big versatile guard this year with the loss of BG. We have to prepared for one of our guards to go down for a while.
However… there are pluses/minuses with depth. Having a lot of it also creates problems. Mostly… who gets the PT? Who will rust out on the bench? There have always been lots of great teams that only go 6 or 7 players.
I wonder what the impact of having so many “bigs” last year did to Bill’s perspective. Granted… our depth wasn’t all-star depth, but it was depth. It seemed that we finally came together only after Landen nailed down the 5. It is hard for a player to take ownership of his position if he isn’t the starter and holding on to the majority of minutes in that spot. Just look at what happened to Landen. His play jumped up considerably after he took ownership. The difference was night and day.
I have a feeling Bill will be on a “fishing expedition” in the early season… looking for players to step up and take ownership, becominc accountable.
Lots of questions in this thread… many directed at me. I wish I had answers, but actually, my motivation is to get all your opinions because I have as many questions as everyone else!
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Ultimately… we have some questions about some of our bigs. We should have learned a lesson last year… we had the same issue of not having a dominate alternative in the post until Bill gave the 5 to Landen. I don’t think we want to deal with that issue this year. We need to spend more of the year playing championship-quality ball tweaking to continue to improve, instead of faltering and just trying to get up to that level in March.
So what we need to do now is to solidify the strength of our core players. Bill wants Svi and Vick to become two of our core players for this year. They will have to be, if for no other reason than to give quality back up minutes at 1 - 3.
I am doubtful we can win a National Championship without quality play from Svi and Vick. They don’t have to dominate the game, but we need quality minutes from both of these players.
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Do you think the 4 guard possibility will be used based on matchup or because putting the most talented guys on the floor gives KU the best advantage?
I get this feeling based on the comments of going small is that Coleby, Udoka & Lightfoot are not ready to contribute in a fashion that would equal what bringing another guard into the game (Vick or Svi) could do.
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@drgnslayr I don’t know if its as much coaching for March as it is coaching for next year. Vick needs pt so he will be more comfortable playing along side Newman next year too! Its a win/win for KU if we can get Vick some seasoning before next season with the possibility of a mass exodus looming just around the corner.
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Love the comment about the Mayor. We know Bill and Fred have a good relationship and I’m sure if he’s really considering changing the status quo at KU its because he’s seen enough to finally believe in it. Jay Wright might have had a big influence as well when the lasting impression of last season is being beat by a bunch of guards/wings and 1 big, the same one that cut down the nets.
Is Bill finally learning that “adaptability” thing we always talk about here? Time will tell
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I’m not ready to pat all of us on the back for hammering Bill on the Mayor’s “match-up style” NBA offense into the dialogue last year, but I do feel like Bill has been impacted by the Mayor and what he did with a bunch of small players. So imagine a bit of “Mayor offense” with players that are larger and more talented?
I do think Bill is looking at his players and trying to give the most talented players (most talented in helping us) plenty of PT.
There is so many ways to think about our team. So many possibilities.
What if Bill suddenly thought, “I’m going 100% on defensive strength!”
What would be our lineup?
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@drgnslayr how tall of big are we playing? Not sure who our 5 would be.
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@justanotherfan wondering if Vick is doing better than Svi? Coleby won’t play at all at 80%
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Agree 100% that it puts the most talented guys on the floor. I think Coleby, Udoka and Lightfoot can help this year, but compared to Jackson, Svi, Vick, Mason and Graham, those three aren’t quite on that level. The only big guy I would really put up there is Bragg. Lucas will obviously contribute, but he’s still probably only the sixth or seventh most talented player on this team.
This team should go small because it’s best players are perimeter guys, and they can still keep size on the floor with Jackson and Svi.
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Defensively I don’t see a huge change from last year if we play “small”. Perry was not tall as a post player and neither was Jamari and neither guy was really known as a great defender in the post in general. I plan to see better defense this year no matter who is on the floor, small lineup or big.
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@joeloveshawks Great point about Jamari and Perry. Svi and Josh are both as big as them yet more mobile with better handles.
I’m not really worried defensively with a four guard lineup. We have seen teams go to the final four and win the championship with smaller teams- Villanova last year, UConn in in '14, and Butler back to back years in '10 and '11. It is more about rotations, staying aggressive and clogging the paint than it is about height, although that can help. Josh is known for being a good defender and having a lot of committment on that end of the floor, and he is as tall, maybe taller, than Perry and Mari, so we should be fine there.
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I think we are talking about keeping either 6’10" Landen or 7’ Udoka at the 5. And if Carlton has firmed up his defense, he could go for some minutes at the 5.
Svi is listed as 6’8". So his height at the 4 would be like a wash with Perry’s height last year.
We aren’t really “going small” as much as putting reasonably tall guys with more handling skills at the 4.
And then Josh is a natural 3. That position used to be called “shooting forward” but I like how people call it “swing guard” because of the athleticism and handling skills expected at that position now.
I remember the day when the 3 and 4 were basically interchangeable. The concepts were 2 guards, 2 forwards and a center. Amazing how quickly the game changes.
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@mihawk I agree unless, ha! Self goes zone. I’d never do it. I’d take quick over big anytime
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@drgnslayr I meant what bigs we are playing against. We could really go fast if we wanted to.
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From a lineup perspective there are a couple of things we really can’t do, and a few others that we would like to do.
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Can’t play Udoka, Landen and Coleby at the same time. It’s just spacing death to put two of those guys on the floor at the same time. You basically have to have Svi, Bragg or Jackson at the 4 to make things work offensively.
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You don’t really want Graham and Mason sitting at the same time. So that means you need to find 5 minutes of rest for each of them each half. Ideally, that means one of them comes out at the under 12 TV timeout, and then comes back in for the other after the under 8 timeout in the first half, then in the second half, one comes out at the under 16, then replaces the other after the under 12.
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You want to manage Bragg’s exposure to bruising guys. With Lucas, Udoka and Coleby around, there’s really no reason Bragg should be banging against some 6-10, 280 big man. The fact that there’s three of them means Bragg should never be matched up with a guy he’s giving up 30-40 pounds to.
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You want to avoid playing anyone more than 33 minutes on a regular basis. In blowouts, you really want to have the ability to get Graham and Mason out with 5+ minutes left - no need to put the extra wear on those guys. In close games, you will have to ride them for their ball handling, but if you’re up 15-18, you can monitor their minutes so they maybe only play 8-10 minutes each in the second half of a double digit game. That means playing Vick 20-25 minutes when games start getting a bit of cushion.
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You want your best lineup (currently Mason-Graham-Svi-Jackson-Bragg) to play at least 5 minutes together in each game. That lineup is a great run starting lineup because they can hit you with that 14-2 run that takes a close game and turns it into a double digit matchup.
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I might add for special defensive schemes, we might play box and 1 or triangle and 2 w/Vick. At least wear em down awhile.
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@justanotherfan said:
You want your best lineup (currently Mason-Graham-Svi-Jackson-Bragg) to play at least 5 minutes together in each game. That lineup is a great run starting lineup because they can hit you with that 14-2 run that takes a close game and turns it into a double digit matchup.
Our team is going to go on offensive blowout mode ALOT this year. We’re going to dominate teams on both ends of the court. It’ll be like a jail break.
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If I’m not mistaken, didn’t Duke win the championship playing four guards around Okafor?
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@HawkChamp I believe you’re correct. But, Coach Self won’t bet the house on playing that way. He will only use it as a weapon in certain cases, limited minutes.
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@jaybate-1.0 Im all for those non linear leaps in neural net connections. Fascinating stuff the brain is. Billions of connections and can be compared to the number of stars in the universe
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@drgnslayr solid post at #32. My main questions revolve around our bigs this year. Basically, how good of a rim protector will Bragg and Udoka be and will they be able to stay out of foul trouble.
We already know what our returning guys are going to bring and they should get better than last year.
Bragg will have an increase roll though. Will Bragg > Perry their sophomore seasons? Its unfair to compare Senior Perry to Sophomore Bragg. But I think Bragg may be a better soph.
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Based on what we have seen, the best and most likely lineup is: Mason, Graham, Jackson, Bragg and Lucas. Looking at how Lucas finished last season, I just don’t see him not starting. The lineup might change as the season goes by but I would put money that this is the lineup at the start of the season.
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I seriously doubt we ever see a KU line up (outside of garbage time) that doesn’t involve either Mason or Graham on the floor because KU doesn’t have a third PG on the roster worthy of important minutes. Svi’s ball handling abilities are good enough to be the second guy, but not lead guard against D1 competition. Vick was turnover probe last year so unless that’s improved over the summer, Vick shouldn’t be handling the ball in any capacity that a PG normally would.
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I think it is safe to say we will be improved in the post on defense. The question is “how much?”
Can Udoka aggressively defend without fouling? We shall see. I’m sure Bill will run plenty of ref’d scrimmages in the coming weeks with real officiating to see how our new guys do.
Will Bragg be able to hold his ground this year and be a better defender? He is bound to be better.
And Landen has improved every single year. This year he will be “the man” in our post. He has stepped up in his ownership role. Look at how improved he became on defense last year… I believe we will see an improved Landen this year, too.
So much of the responsibility falls on our guards. I believe, as others do, that Josh will soon surpass Wayne as a quality defender. All the help we can obtain from the perimeter will also help our post players by reducing their fouls on guards and shooting forwards.
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@drgnslayr think josh has already surpassed Selden on D.
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I’ll “defend” last year’s defense a bit.
Paraphrasing remarks made last year by an unnamed Big 12 assistant coach: “Ellis knows our plays better than our players do. We call the play and he’s at the right spot to defend it before we get going.”
I doubt many fans saw what never happened because Ellis prevented it beforehand.
Playing team defense probably requires more experience than playing team offense.
Josh may be a superior individual defender, but can he compensate for his lack of experience, or else learn at Embiid-like speed? I will gladly hope…
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@drgnslayr UA doesn’t need to defend without fouling this year. He’s just not going to play enough to need to play without fouling this year. LL probably plays 30 mpg or so this year so UA will probably play about 10 mpg this year which means he can play muscleball defense and make opponents regret venturing into the lane.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 no, playing good d without fouling is what I want to see. Don’t want to be giving up free throws unnecessarily. He just needs to keep his arms up and not be reaching for the ball, or anything like that. I see big guys do that way too much instead of staying vertical and forcing a tough shot over the top.
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@HawkChamp As big as UA is, his role is going to be to intimidate and keep people out of the lane. A couple of clean, hard fouls early on will make opponents think twice about journeying into the paint.
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I want to see him set a few hard picks!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Me too!! Kids a brick wall, with steel reinforcement. I dont think there is a Marcus Smart type player in the league this year…someone who I really want to see get knocked on his butt.
Man, that screen on Flopper by Kev Young was Epic. I’ll never forget that stuff!!
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@Lulufulu be a few preseason picks I’d like to see, hmmm wonder who?
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@ParisHawk Thirty- eight minutes is too many minutes per game for Frank and DeVonte, especially Frank. Coach Self, please tell me this is the year you limit our starting guards’ minutes, at least until the tournament. Every year, Coach Self admits he played Frank too many minutes. Please set the limit at 28 minutes per starting guard. We have plenty of quality minutes on the bench, so let’s use them. RCJH
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@stoptheflop Maybe you mistyped: I said 34 minutes each, not 38.
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30 minutes together
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4 minutes Frank without Devonte
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4 minutes Devonte without Frank
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2 minutes both sit
That makes 34 minutes of playing time for each.
This is a prediction, not a wish. My wish is for less. The only way I see my wish coming true is if we blow out a lot of teams.
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@ParisHawk I’m sorry if I misread your earlier comment. I would like to see Coach Self and staff place strict limits on the starting guards’ minutes, like the pitch limits in baseball and the 13 minute limit the Sixers are placing on our man, Embiid. Toward the end of each season Coach Self states he played certain players too many minutes. I know the players want to be in the game, but it’s up to the coaches to set limits. Frank’s minutes need to be reduced due to his aggressive style of play. I thought Vick could have picked up a lot more minutes in decided games last year. RCJH
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Rock Chalk! Time for some round ball…
The key for me to maximize the talent we have this season is the ability to insert more energy, aggressiveness and speed into the KU team for 40 full minutes. We have the experience and the depth to do it.
On D, pick up the opposing team full-court to apply some pressure to even get the ball up the court instead of falling back into half-court D. Do this for the entire game. A more container and controlled version of 40 min of hell.
Trap more and create havoc in the passing lanes. Take more risks on D by anticipating and improvising. Press a little from time to time but pressure a lot all the time. Get out on three point shooters and force the other time to beat us off the dribble. This team is very athletic and deep.
On O, unclog the lane and spread the hi-lo vertically and across the lane, using a smaller line up at times but also with Bragg and Lucas.
Let JJ create on his own sometimes to get used to it for later in the season. He is a slasher and will get to the rim at will. Our guards can all get to the rim at will and for this team we will win all the one-on-one match ups on the perimeter.
Yes, Bragg needs to play close to the basket but not as close as in the past. He is deadly from 10-12 and a good passer if the lane is not clogged. He needs to rebound and make bunnies and be more physical but not to bruise and overpower. Our other bigs can do that better.
Run and run and run, substitute more often and for shorter periods of time, as per the flow of the game. Coach Self always says he wants the team to play faster. This team is maybe the fastest and quickest since 2008.
Another conf title and a final four is in the making. I hope coach will turn them loose and let them play with reckless abandon more than years past. We do not need to ‘run our stuff’ to get the best shot on every possession.
Our D will be elite from day one which makes us very tough to beat, even on a bad night.
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@jayhawk-007 I agree about playing fast. If you watch the '08 team, they looked to run quite a bit - remember the concern was “Can they keep up with North Carolina?” We all know how that turned out. I disagree with those that say Self will hold them back. I’m just not convinced that he intentionally designs his game plan around playing a slow half court game. I think teams do a good job of getting back and preventing run outs, but there are still ways a team can get easy transition dunks. And with an athlete like JJ, we really need to utilize his athleticism and talent, something that was not done enough with Wiggins.
The good thing about Bragg is that teams will have to guard him to the three point line, just like Perry. The key for him will be if he has good enough handles to take his man one on one from the free throw line extended area. I think Bragg and his development is the most important part of this coming year, and the reason we will or won’t make the final four. Bill talks about Bragg needing to score inside more, and I think that can also mean driving into the lane like Perry, not necessarily a post up and hook shot. It will be interesting also to see Landon and what post moves he has this year.
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Yes, agreed. We need a little more dribble-drive on O and Bragg should be able to bounce it a pull up for a short jumper and also take it directly to the rim. JJ will be the one to do it best and most often.
In any case, our guards will beat our opponents off the dribble this year, and we will be able to stay in front of the elite guards as well, much better than the last few years. This is the most exciting thing about this year’s team.
One small criticism in a sea of great qualities which I might make about KU BB is that we have not always played to our athletic ability, rather than depending on the system to ‘run our stuff’ on O and play classic man-to-man on D. But the best teams always need someone to make a play on both ends of the court, not just play within the scheme.
I would like to see us play “take 'em” more than years past. We will see early on if indeed this is a good dribbling and passing team. But even if we are a good ‘move the ball passing team’, I would still like to see us try a little more ‘play ground’ ball and let our superior individual talent take over.
In the past, we have emphasized system offense and traditional defense with little room for improvisation and individual ‘make a play’ tolerance.
The result is sometimes at the end of the year, under the brightest lights, when one player has to step up, we tend to differ to “the system”. And we have not trained our alpha dogs to go ‘make a play’.
Some call this tendency to emphasize the play calling vs the individual improvisation as ‘over-coaching’. We will see if we can do both to take advantage of our system and our individual talent. Running the floor on offense (bring the ball us by running, not walking) and picking up the other team full court on defense will help us achieve this important evolution in style. We can sub more often and push the guys on the court more.
Thoughts?
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Iso/ hero ball doesn’t even work at the nba level (think Kobe). Good team play will destroy Iso ball everyday (GS Warriors). What we need are more alpha types. The '08 squad had rush, chalmers, Collins, and Darrell all of whom could, and did, go off for 30 pts in a game.
I guess what I’m saying is you don’t have to be selfish to score a ton even within Bills system. The trick is getting the players to recognize and take the good shots. As well as pass out of lower percentage shots.
No Hero needed this season. Graham, Mason, Bragg and Jackson will provide plenty of offense!
