A Pure Embarrassment

  • One team is clearly more talented.

    However, one coach will play his talented freshman, Matt McQuaid (22 minutes). The talented freshman for MSU was just the 84th ranked player. Yet somehow, he could find the floor and contribute for a hall of fame coach.

    Meanwhile, one coach leaves his talented freshman on the bench. You know, the #21 player in the country. The guy that hit two beautiful jumpers in the first half. He sits. The guy that has more skill in one hand than Lucas or Traylor combined.

    That same coach, in painfully predictable fashion, plays his plodding post man (Lucas) and his low talent post man (Traylor), who combine for a whopping one made basket from the field. You know, those guys with no ranking. The guys in their 4th and 5th seasons, who have made very little (if any) improvement.

    Meanwhile, that same coach, leaves a talented post player (Mickelson) on the bench. You know, the same player that displayed diverse talents set at the WUGs. The same guy that could change a few shots when folks drive to the hoop in a game like this. Three minutes.

    Further, and perhaps even more disturbing, was that Kansas was not running any offense much of the second half. it was a joke. It displayed a clear lack of preparation. And a clear lack of purpose. Where was the high/low? It was non-existent. This was much of the same garbage we saw at the end of last season. Out of control driving of the ball to the basket. Devonte Graham being permitted to throw up garbage shots instead of creating, which is his supposed strength.

    Of course, no plays run to set up three point shooting. We took a sum total of 11 three pointers until we missed four in the last 30 seconds. In one of the great quotes of this young season, Dick Vitale quoted Self as saying that Greene was the “best shooter” he has ever had at Kansas. And, of course, Greene remains on the bench. Nine minutes. Did he even play in the second half? No set plays run to free the best shooter ever at Kansas under Self. Nope, he sits on the bench. And Svi, you know, the 5-5 guy from three? No threes even attempted.

    Here’s the best stat – Greene and Svi combined to shoot – here we go – ZERO THREE POINTERS. NOT ONE ATTEMPT between them from three. Izzo has to be laughing. He was at the end of the game. I saw him. That same guy who has been to 7 final fours in 17 seasons.

    Once again, our coach does not have the team prepared. Once again, our coach makes painfully questionable decisions regarding playing time.

    Bragg and Mickelson – combined, individually, any way you slice it – are better than Lucas and Traylor.

    Memo to Self - Lucas and Traylor CAN’T FREAKING SCORE! IS THIS DIFFICULT TO COMPREHEND? Lucas and Traylor combined for 32 minutes. One made field goal. One. Bragg – 11 minutes. Mickelson – 3 minutes. 32 minutes to 14 minutes.

    When your team can’t score, you can’t play guys like Traylor and Lucas. They simply aren’t offensive players. Indisputable fact. You can’t have a complete offensive dead spot on the floor when the players in question bring very little else to the table.

    It is flat embarrassing for Kansas – an elite, top 5 program – to have either player in such a prominent role. But this is what Self has chosen. Are we really in for a season where Lucas and Traylor are our 2nd and 3rd post players? Talent wins, and we are playing two unranked post players as our 2nd and 3rd post players. Ok, sorry, Traylor was #131, right? I stand corrected.

    It’s embarrassing. But hey, we’re used to being embarrassed – Kentucky, WSU, Stanford. It’s all the players’ fault. Or injuries. Or some such nonsense.

    Tell me, how healthy was MSU coming into tonight’s game? Hmmm? Right. We can’t use that excuse.

    Michigan State is a professionally run operation. It’s the type of team you face in the NCAA tourney. We weren’t ready for that. With a team laden with upper classmen, we weren’t ready.

    The question is “why”?

  • @HighEliteMajor

    Well said. And I wish I had some clue why Lucas and Jam Tray get minutes but, alas there is no LOGICAL explanation.

    Lucas shot an airball from point blank range completely over the basket! Just like last year.

    I wonder if HCBS has an open door policy? Bc if I were Hunter Mickelson I’d respectfully go to his office tomorrow and ask for more minutes.

    I want Diallo to be eligible but do we know for sure he’ll get to play? Personally, I’d give all the post minutes to Mick, Bragg & Diallo when we hit conference play.

    I also would give Svi another 10-15 min per game.

    I’m done

  • It was frustrating for sure. It seemed like Izzo’s strategy to use his bench early and often ultimately paid off.

    Selden was AWOL for most of the game. Greene didn’t attempt a 3 (of course it’s hard from the bench.)

    …and the ill-fated layups from our fast breaks left me longing for the way Roy’s teams ran the break…

    Valentine gets credit, but we shall see if he’s legitimately that amazing throughout the season, or if we simply created and then fed the monster.

    Finally – we have now lost the opening jump for both of our games. (Remember the article by @Jesse-Newell ?)

  • @HighEliteMajor I don’t know how but you read my mind . Your comments were spot on. My buds and i were all in agreement during the game, especially when it came to what players were being played and not played. Especially regarding Lucas over Mickelson especially after WUG, really bizarre. Graham should stop shooting and distribute the balls to our dead on three point shooters, OH WAIT! their on the bench. Just sad really, some times I wonder if self is lost.

  • Izzo sees Greene go 6/6 and says ‘Don’t let him get open.’ Rather than draw up plays to get him open, Self says Óh well, he’s not getting open this game’ and pulls him. Result? 0/0

    After seeing Hunter against N. CO. I thought 'how do you keep this guy off the floor?'I guess Bill found a way.

    And Bill insists on trying to beat Michigan St. inside, even thought he’s only got one reliable big man scorer. And even though M State is always well stocked with capable big bodies.

    I wonder if Hunter wishes he’d chosen M State.

  • I agree with the mysterious absence of Mickelson. At one point late in the game, I asked my TV why wouldn’t Coach put Hunter in there… There was no answer.

    On a positive note: good night for Perry. (pyrrhic victory)

  • Feels like the same squad, same outcomes, same deliberate choking of games doesn’t it? And the same players playing poorly? I believe @wissoxfan83 was the one that said this is the same team just a year older. He’s right, its the same team and we should expect no difference in result come March, no matter how far away that is. Last Night is exactly how this team will perform when things don’t go their way, when the opponent doesn’t go away and fights through their problems.

    Without Diallo I knew that Self would revert to bad habits, that force feeding the post players we have into major minutes would come back to haunt us, it already has, its already squandered a marquee win and it will happen again. The domino effect that it creates without having him is profound. I thought we would mask the issue because its early, but its clear already that without your 2nd best post player in the game this is the struggles we will see. Rebounding was a huge weakness last night, how many 2nd and 3rd chance 3 pointers did they make last night- daggers. Rim Protection was non-existent. Those are the deficiencies Diallo would help correct but we will never know that, he’s an outcast with this team at this point. But knowing how Self operates, Diallo probably would have played behind Hunter- which was what 3 minutes? Gotta follow the pecking order of bigs don’t we…

    I don’t believe Self is the biggest culprit of the game, but he gets no credit for how he lets things spiral the way they do.

    At some point the players have to make shots and point blank shots at that. How many layups did Lucas/Mason/Graham miss point blank??? The number had to be close or over 10… Our Execution in the 2nd half is exactly how you lose games. Missed key FT’s, mason bricking 1&1’s, Lucas did the same. Name one thing either of these veterans did that is worth talking about. They flat out stunk. Add Devonte to that list, he took so many ill-advised shots I lost count. He was anything but our pass-first assist hunter we had become to see last year. He’s a chuck shot happy fellow so far this year, apparently has the green light from anywhere.


    I feel your pain in your post, but this is the same Self we’ve now gotten accustomed to seeing? Did you have that glimmer of hope that Self would finally listen to us in some way, that playing this player and this player would be the difference? There is no answer to your Why, because that’s the downfall of a great coach who believes in what he believes in no matter if it loses the game or not. This is our leader, and its becoming increasingly harder to just follow him with blind faith. He will always have his Jamari Traylor even when he graduates.

  • Yes it was disappointing but my gosh people, there are more important things going on in life than trashing kids, coaches and every other imaginable reason for this loss other than the fact that we just did not execute when the times were there. Knew this site and the other one would be OMG THE SKY IS FALLING. I’m more embarrassed that true “fans” are cutting and running. Perhaps each and every one on this team was given a real gut check and know that they ALL must get better going forward.

    Think the Duke fans are saying it is the end of the road after their poor showing? Without Plumlee they would have had a score like our UK game last year.

  • @RockChalkinTexas

    We saw and played differently this Summer. We didn’t see any evidence that Self learned or carried things over.

    That’s why the huge disappointment by many of us.

    We could take losing if we felt the coach was putting in best position to win, and we just came up short.

    Look at the negativity around shot making that comes out of Coach’s mouth and then gets picked up and parroted by players. Then we see things like best shooters not taking any 3 pt attempts. Starts at the head.

  • @HighEliteMajor Great analysis, as usual. I would only add another reason why Greene should be in the game: he is an excellent free throw shooter. If he is not open for a three, he can still drive. This is not the best aspect of his game, but–with the new rules–chances are he might get fouled. Chances are this probably gets us two points. I am having flashbacks to last season, and I am not liking what I see.

  • I got this from http://kansas.247sports.com/Board/59455/Contents/Im-looking-forward-41176465 but it is pretty close to how I feel.

    to when this current cycle of players filters through. Some of what I am about to say is going to be unpopular with people and will even get me a few “you are a moron” responses but here it is… I think the current roster, at least the foundational pieces is dysfunctional both on a collective and on an individual basis. I am referring specifically to Mason, Selden, Ellis and Traylor.

    I think Frank is a hard nosed player who wants to win in the worst way and I dig that but as a point guard (or a guard facilitating the offense) he falls short, he does not make the players around him better. On a fast break he will go up against a big man and try to score rather than dump it off to a trailing Jayhawk. Perry Ellis is a great, local student/athlete who can really score in many different ways but he is almost an example of the rare college “tweener” and without a dominant big man presence on the floor with him we get owned on the boards against teams with comparable size/talent. Wayne is Wayne, overall an extremely disappointing recruit who really hasn’t improved like a guy with his talent should over the course of a few years. He is another player who sort of lacks a true position on the floor and his inability to create scoring opportunities for himself is bewildering at times. And Jamari is undersized and under-talented… great story and I’m so happy for him in life but there is no reason he should be starting and logging major minutes for a top college program.

    In my opinion we need a fresh start, a reboot for lack of a better term. We need pieces that fit.

  • Not sure where else to put this so here it goes.

    I didn’t get to watch the game last night but this morning, wasn’t allowed to watch it last night for other reasons stated in another post, long long long story. I have complaints, I have thoughts, I have issues. Why did KU change it’s offense late in the game when it was working for us? Why did it go from high low and the weave to “Perry must touch it every time down the floor?” He can score, but it was like Self scripted the change no matter what the game score. But it kills the flow of the game for the other 4 guys.

    Hunter played very very little, I think I read here 3 mins. In those 3 mins MSU scored 7 KU 2.

    Lucas needs to borrow some gloves from the football team so he can hold on to the ball, may he never be handed a baby, I’m pretty sure he’d bobble it and possibly drop it.

    How did we miss so many FT’s down the stretch?

    They had 9 blocks, pretty sure Frank had two and Perry had the other 7, “OUCH” no rim ever when Perry scores. Dunk the damn ball man!! That goes to all the bigs, Dunk it!! Go strong, soft is for toilet paper not post players.

    Jamari and Brennen, keep driving to the hole, you get fouled with the new rules.

    Svi can dribble, he can pass, he can’t shoot in the paint unless it’s a layup.

    DG man I get it, everyone has an off night, sometimes putting the gun back in the holster on an off night is a good thing.

    Bragg, speed, athletic, needs control of his body, skinny or not, he gets going and speeds up but can’t control his own body, man is he long though. See good things there.

    Jamari, two bad fouls back to back, not bad D, need to dunk it like the other bigs need to, and not settle for a finger roll or short jumper, those get blocked against true bigs. fight fight fight for those rebounds, so a few nice block outs, just didn’t time the rebounds well coming off the rim.

    Frank, get on the treadmill, if you are going to try and go 107mph the whole game, better be in shape for it. And don’t take your frustrations out on a missed FT by making a dumb pass the next time down the floor, missed the front end twice, I believe two straight trips down the floor and then a TO, thats 6 possible points that went bye bye.

    As a team getting out rebounded by 20 is a joke, time to put the cone on the rim at practice and do some rebounding drills, lots and lots of them. Maybe Self needs to break out the football helmets and pads??

    Positive ALERT!!! Low turnovers, hey something has to come up roses.

    OK deep breath, count to 10, get the floral print shirts out and the destine on the nose. Lets get ready for Maui!!!

  • @JRyman The roses you are speaking of are under the steaming pile of poo behind the bear!ROSES.jpg

  • @Statmachine said:

    @JRyman The roses you are speaking of are under the steaming pile of poo behind the bear!ROSES.jpg

    Well that just means they will be very very well fertilized and should grow to be bigger than all the other roses.

  • Statman: I have to agree but I will add that Perry is our leader and however he performs is the way the rest of the team performs. As long as he is our team leader this team will have problems. To me the big difference between the two teams last night was the emotion of MS in the last 8 minutes. This happens to us even in our league. The stoic Perry does not play with emotion and neither does his followers. I noticed that when Perry was elbowed in the nose last year during the Wichita game and had to leave the stadium the rest of the team stepped up and and actually made some progress. They rely too much on Perry who is not going to be a chest thumping emotional Thomas type player. We may win the Big 12 again this year but with Perry running the ship we will not be a national team because other teams have learned that all they have to do is put pressure on Perry and he will wilt which carries over into the rest of the team. Bill is committed to Perry and holds him up as an example of greatness so if he is the greatest the other guys have to emulate him.

  • As I pointed out in the Predictions threat, I predicted fouls, shooting %'s, Valentine going for 20+, and players feeling the minutes crunch were all going to happen. It would feel better if we won and all of this was true, but we lost and all of this was true so part of me wishes not even predicting anything at all.

    The positive was we took advantage of the fouls for most of the game but when it got tight we either missed important FT’s (Mason & Lucas) or stopped getting the calls that were fueling the lead. an otherwise great FT night 24-30 gets overshadowed when 2 of those misses were at the most important part of the game.

    Can’t win games shooting 34% from the field and 20% from 3. This is the same squad that was over 200th in the country in FG % last year. Hot shooting games will mask a deficient scoring team. Our backcourt went 9-36 from the field, including 2-13 from 3 land. The land of the bricks you could say happened. I saw Jesse post that we were 12-33 on layups. How is that even possible, I even saw Lucas miss the entire basket on a backboard layup attempt. Michigan St ends up 46% and 42% from 3, all from a coach that preaches the same principles as Self does but yet he’s got guys who can make shots. It’s simple, we make 40% of our shots in this game we would have won. Perry also had a grand chance to put us up 1 on that FT line jumper but he missed and then McQuaid nailed a 3 to put it away. That’s a shot Perry has to make, your Senior, your go-to player wide open that’s on him.

    So what’s the hope? There’s plenty, its a bad loss we all know that but hopefully the guys learn from it and more importantly Self learns from it. This team has to become a better shooting team or else we will continue to have these games, that’s a fact.

  • @BeddieKU23 said:

    when 2 of those misses were at the most important part of the game.

    Are you talking the two misses that were on the front end of one and ones? Not only did those misses cost us two points but possibly 4. If you want to take in the misses on the front end and then add the back end as misses as well, the FT% gets really ugly.

    With all the whistles that will be called this year it is vital more than ever that FT’s are made at 83% or higher, and you can’t miss the front ends, killer man just killer.

  • Theme of this thread…


  • @JRyman

    Yes I’m talking about those misses back to back. Lucas is a poor shooter so your only hope is to pray but Mason missing is inexcusable, but then again his whole game was that

  • @BeddieKU23 I think some credit has to go to Izzy and co for getting into Mason’s head a little.

    That and I think he pressed himself too much. He saw that DG wasn’t playing well and couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat and tried to do too much, and he can do a lot, but that wasn’t his thing last night.

    Credit to MSU for playing tough D and scouting correctly on our guys. I think that flustered them

  • @BeddieKU23 said:

    its a bad loss we all know that but hopefully the guys learn from it and more importantly Self learns from it. This team has to become a better shooting team or else we will continue to have these games, that’s a fact.

    All very true. All well said. The part in bold though–what indication do you have that makes you think this is possible? I have none. Self will not change. I’d bet you just about anything I have. And as long as we bash our heads against the wall with bad ball, I foresee a repeat of last season as a whole.

  • Good lord, I was going to come on here and go on a rant but @HighEliteMajor pretty much hit most of what I was going to say. This loss is on Self, no doubt about it. He needs to study the tape, look in the mirror, and recognize that he is not doing a good job with the talent he has. There is no reason we should have lost that game last night. His choice of players on the court and not utilizing his bench is inexcusable. Lucas cannot finish at the rim, its so disappointing to see a guy that has good size fail to improve one bit in three years. How is that possible? He must have hit his ceiling. Regardless, its killing the team to have him in the game because he cannot score, cannot defend, and leaves us playing 5 vs 4. Bragg and Mickelson should have been used way more than they were. There was a video clip where someone was interviewing Self and he said something like “we have 11 guys that think they are going to get significant minutes but the fact is that its not going to happen. We need guys to separate.” Why the hell can he not use all of his guys if they are good enough to play?!? Having a deep rotation should be a weapon. Having fresh players in the last 10 minutes of the game would win us a ton of games and more importantly, keep us from ending up in games that come down to the wire where we can lose.

    What happened to the press??? Why run the press against weaker teams but not against better ones? It speeds up the game which plays into our strengths. It makes the opponent uncomfortable and gives us some occasional turnovers. When Self has these guys playing fast and keeps them fresh by consistently rotating in players, the team plays great. When the game gets tight, so does Self and that’s when we find ourselves in these close games that come down to the wire with tired players in the lineup and end up being a coinflip whether we win or lose. I.e. NCAA tournament, Conference tournament, WUG championship against Germany, etc etc.

    Next rant, the halfcourt offense is TERRIBLE. I can’t think of a time that the “weave” has actually been useful. For the love of god, why can’t we run some real offense. Every once in a while we run a nice backdoor play that results in an alley-oop dunk but not yesterday. We had all returning players on the court and are desperate for a basket and they were running the same entry level weave offense that we run every year that doesn’t do anything. So much for having returning veterans and that being an advantage.

    Lastly and maybe most importantly, shooting the 3 is not fools gold, its real gold. Its going to determine if we win or lose in most of our games this season. Face the facts. We suck at inside scoring. There is no excuse for not running plays for Svi and Greene. If they aren’t in the game we still have solid three point shooters and should still look for threes. We will not win games if we don’t hit threes. Self needs to embrace it and change his ‘fool’s gold’ mentality or its going to be much more agonizing season than it needs to be.

  • @JRyman

    Mason puts himself in that hole where he thinks he has to do it all alone. He was having a bad shooting game so he kept feeding it instead of being a leader. When he plays bad, KU plays bad more often than not.

    I give credit to Izzo for the subbing of McQuaid for tum-tum. Otherwise KU’s players lost this game by not making the most basic of shots- a Layup.

    @MoonwalkMafia I get we all want to blame Self for his distribution of minutes to certain players but this isn’t something new. This is our coach, I’m shocked so many people thought it was going to be different. We need Self to learn from this loss but that’s just wishful thinking. He’s prepared this team the same way he prepared last years squad. So far having a veteran squad has gotten him no further along then a young team.


    We lost because of a poor shooting night. 34% isn’t good enough to beat most teams, regardless of talent. Michigan St made every basket from the 5 minute mark, KU was 2-12 in that span including missed FT’s in 1&1 situations. Perry missed a wide open jumper for the lead which even with the ensuing 3 would have made it a 1 possession game instead of 2.

  • @BeddieKU23 It’s not just the distribution of minutes, it’s that he didn’t coach when we needed him to. Driving at the basket in hopes of getting the other team in foul trouble is not coaching. That’s a base strategy. But when you’re on the ropes that can’t be your only option. You have two of the best shooters in the country on this roster, you have to get them looks. I mean, my god, we weren’t even going high-low in the second half. Sure, we threw it in to Lucas (???), but Ellis didn’t even see much.

  • @BeddieKU23 said:

    Otherwise KU’s players lost this game by not making the most basic of shots- a Layup.

    Did we have any dunks last night? Why don’t our bigs dunk the darn ball? This isn’t Hoosiers full of small farm kids, dunking makes you feel good, just ask Tyrel Reed.

    Has Perry ever made the Rim regret being a rim when he scores? It’s like a fine leather purse, it’s always smooth and soft when he scores.

  • @MoonwalkMafia

    Your right it was a poorly coached game when the game got tight. I just saw something that said our guards took 21 of 32 2nd half shots. Good if your making them, the opposite when your top 3 go 9-36 for the game. I just think we are all looking to blame the coach when the real reason for the loss was the fact the ball didn’t get in the hoop enough…


    I don’t believe we had a dunk last night. No Lobs which are a staple of the offense.

  • @wrwlumpy

    Excellent! Is that from “Young Frankenstein?”

  • I just want to stay in bed and CRY this morning.

  • 😢

  • So I just checked the box score and according to ESPN Devonte had 38 minutes! 38! That means he was only not in the game for 2 minutes! The only other player on the floor that much was Valentine! And what in the world did Devonte show that game to cause Greene to sit? Or move Perry to the 3 to help the awful rebounding? Or play 4 on 5?

    I love Devonte. Last year he quickly grew to be one of my favorites. But ask him if he had a great game last night. Even a good game. Was he the best player on the floor? No way he says yes! And this is not on Devonte. He did not show a lack of effort. He made some bad decisions early that plagued his mindset for the rest of the game. Did he ever have a chance to think about his decisions? Reboot his mindset? Bad coaching decision.

    That said, the players should have won this game in the first half and never allowed poor coaching down the stretch to matter. KU was way better all half and left up 6 due to poor execution of a solid game plan.

    Second half adjustments? Odd substitutions (or lack there of)? Those are questions for Self. But again, none of that should have mattered. This team didn’t “crack it open” as Self likes to say when they had many chances to do so.

  • FYI I am still crying.

  • @benshawks08

    I don’t believe Graham has looked good so far in exhibitions games etc. small sample size but he’s seems to have the green light whenever he feels like it, the same guy who’s supposed to be the opposite of Mason and gets people easy baskets. 20% from the field and 20% from 3 are just awful #'s to look at. I get its early but man talk about throwing up some bricks

  • @benshawks08

    “So I just checked the box score and according to ESPN Devonte had 38 minutes! 38! That means he was only not in the game for 2 minutes! The only other player on the floor that much was Valentine! And what in the world did Devonte show that game to cause Greene to sit?”

    Well… you are right! Devonte had a horrible game!

    But let’s step backwards for a minute, and broaden our perspectives.

    I’m pretty sure I have some others who also feel this way… but isn’t Devonte a player that has potential to be a real game-changer?

    What if Devonte can become the one to carry a chip? He seems to have a personality drawn towards wanting to be the leader and to be at the top. Maybe a game like this, having played all but 2 minutes, is what he needed to take OWNERSHIP of his failure! He can’t really put the blame somewhere else. Yes… it is a team effort, but accountability breaks down to individual performances. Maybe he can bounce back from this with desire, energy, aggressiveness and start leading this team.

    What bothered me the most was the performance from Frank.

    I really expected him to come through…

    Is this the beginning of the “changing of the guard?” Is Devonte going to step up now and lead this team instead of Frank?

    We’ve been edging towards this for a while.

    I hope CS realizes that it can be a great thing to have two PGs in a game… but there can only be ONE LEADER!

    One of those guys is going to have to take possession of that team.

    '08 is not the norm. We had leadership through 3 guards. That is very rare, and it took a miracle come back to win and beat an opponent that didn’t have near the talent/experience we had.

    I’ve always kind of wondered if that was the wrong message learned by CS.

  • @Statmachine

    “FYI I am still crying.”

    Come on, Stat… BOUNCE BACK!

    The only reason this can hurt for too long if you had ambitions of “perfection.” The same “perfection” Calipari had last year.

    That isn’t a healthy perspective to have.

    You better prepare yourself for more losses… because they are going to come. And unless we find the missing piece it will come in March, too.

    This team was over-rated. WUG built plenty of delusion of the quality of this team. I say that, but we DO have the potential for greatness… but it isn’t going to come over night. Lots of hard work and struggle to get there.

    There will be a new day for battle. Jump out of the trench and run forward with all guns drawn, buddy!

    This could easily be the best thing to happen to us!

  • Frustrating last ten minutes last night, but it’s so fun to have college basketball back. Couple thoughts from the game…

    The only justification Self could ever have to play either Lucas or Traylor is that they help on the glass and on the defensive end. It’s clearly never been about their offense (understatement of the year). What we saw last night, especially in the last 7 minutes, was a team that couldn’t get a defensive rebound and an MSU team that had no fear of having their shot blocked at the rim. If Lucas and Traylor can’t provide blocked or altered shots at the rim or get a defensive rebound, then they have no purpose being on the court. It’s been multiple years and we’ve yet to see either of those things from them so to expect that to appear now seems a bit too optimistic for me and why it’s so frustrating to see them continually get the playing time that they do.

    With how good of a shooting team this is, I think it’s great to have guards who can break down defenses off the dribble. That said, when Mason/Graham/Selden drove last night, it was often reckless and out of control. Rarely saw eyes up looking for shooters to dish to and often left them taking tough shots or getting a charge. Add that to having no real offense other than having the guards just drive and create their own shot, it makes for just plain bad offense.

    I always enjoy the discussions here. Glad to have a place to talk KU hoops.

  • @drgnslayr I hope you are right. We surely can’t complain about Self using the early hook on him and wrecking his confidence that way. I wonder if playing through some early losses could be a benefit for this team. Will we have a better chip with a mediocre season and a 3-6 seed for the tournament?

    A chip is usually developed after going through or overcoming some form of adversity. I’m not sure whether it is fortunate or unfortunate that these early season games (especially against good teams) end up mattering very little for us most years. Will this early season loss be enough to build that chip or will we need to suffer a few more setbacks?

    I too worry that constantly trying to recreate 2008 is the real fools gold. That team was special and times have changed.

  • This was me last night!

  • @drgnslayr This team was over-rated. WUG built plenty of delusion of the quality of this team.

    But Self didn’t play the WUG roster…he left Mickelson on the bench all but 3 minutes.

  • @Bwag do you think our ranking was due to having diallo?

  • @Crimsonorblue22

    on paper there isn’t 4 better teams out there, we just didn’t play to the ranking last night in the last 8 minutes or so.

    Even without Diallo we have what 9 guys Soph & up…Hard not to be ranked high. Duke was a top 10 team on paper but they didn’t play to their ranking either.

  • Banned


    Thanks for the laugh. I think you set me straight again. It was a little warped after that KU game last night.

  • @Crimsonorblue22 probably, but everything we have heard about Diallo was that he was more raw than Bragg. So I’m not sure having him now would be the magic in the near term. We are good enough to protect the ranking we have, but not if Self plays Lucas/Traylor consistently.

    I’m not sure with them in the game that it doesn’t upset the balance of the overall system, putting pressure on the guards to feel they have to compensate and thence come out like they did last night.

  • What was most frustrating to me is to again see Self panic halfway through the second half and go to the “just drive it to the rim Frank/Andrew/Elijah/Tyshawn/Sherron offense”… you know, the offensive strategy that has ended every NCAA tournament since 2008.

  • What O What could be going on between Bill Self and Hunter Mickelson??? There is hardly one poster on this Buckets site who does not believe that, given court time, Hunter Mickelson could play circles around Lucas and Traylor. The cautious insertion of Bragg last night I can well understand; altho the way MSU played the game was perhaps conducive to Carlton’s gleaning more minutes. But the real enigma so far this season has been Mickelson’s limited duty. If not due to injury, there must be some serious disciplinary stuff going on between Hunter and his coach. His inactivity appears to be snuffing the chances for this squad to develop into a top contender.

  • It looks to me like the key to beating this Kansas team (or lineup, anyway) is to defend the three point line. With zero looks for our two best shooters, we look just average. Unfortunately, Bill makes it very easy to defend the 3 because he runs no 3pt offense. You just have to stay within 5 ft. of a stationary man when the ball’s on this side of the court. I don’t doubt that that was part of Izzo’s game plan and I’ll bet we’ll see more of it throughout the season.

  • Good points have been made. Self leaves himself open to second guessing on the line up when the guys that play don’t get it done (Lucas, Traylor). My biggest gripe is the wild shots off of penetration that Devonte (especially) and also Frank continued to put up. A lot of those had no chance. And give Greene and Svi a chance to show their stuff a little more. Shave some minutes from Graham and Selden. The criticism of Self is probably justified…some of the same things keep happening. That will continue to be the case. I’ll still take him. But you have to sit back and take this for what it was…an early season loss to a ranked opponent with a great coach and a very good player (maybe great…I don’t know) that had a great night. We didn’t play well…Is that the first time that has happened? No, and it won’t be the last. It happens.

  • @RockChalkinTexas I don’t disagree with your sentiment. Its a young season, and maybe this team (that couldn’t take 1/3rd of the roster to WUG/Korea) needed a reality-check that a top15 team isn’t going to fold up and go away. Yes, they will learn. Yes, our gold-medal winners need to feel the sting of defeat just to refocus them.

    But I also thing @HighEliteMajor raises proper discussion points. We HAVE more talented kids than Lucas sitting on the bench (Hunter, Bragg). Hunter a top50 recruit. Bragg an F’n McDAA that you know Calipari would be giveng 20mpg to right from Day 1 because Calipari wants what a 20mpg Bragg can give in March Madness. I’d say that philosophy works.

    We’ve given all the mpg needed to see nothing, nuthin!..out of Lucas.

    I will differ from @HighEliteMajor just a little bit regarding Traylor, who I think should be the 4th big, because he does hustle, he seems to be boxing out for rbds better, he dives on the floor, he puts pressure on the D with his dribble drive, makes his FTs, and apparently he has developed a 10-12ft pullup J, …none of which Lucas has. Nor can anyone say Jamari lacks in confidence. Wish I could say the same about Lucas’ body language, but when you got no game, how much confidence can you truly have?

  • @JRyman Man, Ryman…you…you…actually pulled a rose out of a pile-o-crap…!

  • Frankly, lets put the WHOLE ARGUMENT about Hunter’s weight and Bragg’s weight to rest right now!

    The logic goes something like this:

    How many of Calipari’s 6’9 “athletics” weigh more than 220?

    Kevin Young, our starting 4 man in 2013, was 190, a fact which should shame any further mention of the weight issue.

    Calipari’s 220 lb kids GET mpg…

    Kevin Young got mpg, and had heart…

    Jeff Withey never got much past 225lbs…

    If we don’t change something in the post-rotation lineup, we will get a Tourney exit, which is exactly what this loss felt like…

  • Everyone stop posting for a while, please. I need to get back to reality/work!!

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