A Pure Embarrassment
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Statman: I have to agree but I will add that Perry is our leader and however he performs is the way the rest of the team performs. As long as he is our team leader this team will have problems. To me the big difference between the two teams last night was the emotion of MS in the last 8 minutes. This happens to us even in our league. The stoic Perry does not play with emotion and neither does his followers. I noticed that when Perry was elbowed in the nose last year during the Wichita game and had to leave the stadium the rest of the team stepped up and and actually made some progress. They rely too much on Perry who is not going to be a chest thumping emotional Thomas type player. We may win the Big 12 again this year but with Perry running the ship we will not be a national team because other teams have learned that all they have to do is put pressure on Perry and he will wilt which carries over into the rest of the team. Bill is committed to Perry and holds him up as an example of greatness so if he is the greatest the other guys have to emulate him.
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As I pointed out in the Predictions threat, I predicted fouls, shooting %'s, Valentine going for 20+, and players feeling the minutes crunch were all going to happen. It would feel better if we won and all of this was true, but we lost and all of this was true so part of me wishes not even predicting anything at all.
The positive was we took advantage of the fouls for most of the game but when it got tight we either missed important FT’s (Mason & Lucas) or stopped getting the calls that were fueling the lead. an otherwise great FT night 24-30 gets overshadowed when 2 of those misses were at the most important part of the game.
Can’t win games shooting 34% from the field and 20% from 3. This is the same squad that was over 200th in the country in FG % last year. Hot shooting games will mask a deficient scoring team. Our backcourt went 9-36 from the field, including 2-13 from 3 land. The land of the bricks you could say happened. I saw Jesse post that we were 12-33 on layups. How is that even possible, I even saw Lucas miss the entire basket on a backboard layup attempt. Michigan St ends up 46% and 42% from 3, all from a coach that preaches the same principles as Self does but yet he’s got guys who can make shots. It’s simple, we make 40% of our shots in this game we would have won. Perry also had a grand chance to put us up 1 on that FT line jumper but he missed and then McQuaid nailed a 3 to put it away. That’s a shot Perry has to make, your Senior, your go-to player wide open that’s on him.
So what’s the hope? There’s plenty, its a bad loss we all know that but hopefully the guys learn from it and more importantly Self learns from it. This team has to become a better shooting team or else we will continue to have these games, that’s a fact.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
when 2 of those misses were at the most important part of the game.
Are you talking the two misses that were on the front end of one and ones? Not only did those misses cost us two points but possibly 4. If you want to take in the misses on the front end and then add the back end as misses as well, the FT% gets really ugly.
With all the whistles that will be called this year it is vital more than ever that FT’s are made at 83% or higher, and you can’t miss the front ends, killer man just killer.
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Theme of this thread…
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Yes I’m talking about those misses back to back. Lucas is a poor shooter so your only hope is to pray but Mason missing is inexcusable, but then again his whole game was that
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@BeddieKU23 I think some credit has to go to Izzy and co for getting into Mason’s head a little.
That and I think he pressed himself too much. He saw that DG wasn’t playing well and couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat and tried to do too much, and he can do a lot, but that wasn’t his thing last night.
Credit to MSU for playing tough D and scouting correctly on our guys. I think that flustered them
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@BeddieKU23 said:
its a bad loss we all know that but hopefully the guys learn from it and more importantly Self learns from it. This team has to become a better shooting team or else we will continue to have these games, that’s a fact.
All very true. All well said. The part in bold though–what indication do you have that makes you think this is possible? I have none. Self will not change. I’d bet you just about anything I have. And as long as we bash our heads against the wall with bad ball, I foresee a repeat of last season as a whole.
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Good lord, I was going to come on here and go on a rant but @HighEliteMajor pretty much hit most of what I was going to say. This loss is on Self, no doubt about it. He needs to study the tape, look in the mirror, and recognize that he is not doing a good job with the talent he has. There is no reason we should have lost that game last night. His choice of players on the court and not utilizing his bench is inexcusable. Lucas cannot finish at the rim, its so disappointing to see a guy that has good size fail to improve one bit in three years. How is that possible? He must have hit his ceiling. Regardless, its killing the team to have him in the game because he cannot score, cannot defend, and leaves us playing 5 vs 4. Bragg and Mickelson should have been used way more than they were. There was a video clip where someone was interviewing Self and he said something like “we have 11 guys that think they are going to get significant minutes but the fact is that its not going to happen. We need guys to separate.” Why the hell can he not use all of his guys if they are good enough to play?!? Having a deep rotation should be a weapon. Having fresh players in the last 10 minutes of the game would win us a ton of games and more importantly, keep us from ending up in games that come down to the wire where we can lose.
What happened to the press??? Why run the press against weaker teams but not against better ones? It speeds up the game which plays into our strengths. It makes the opponent uncomfortable and gives us some occasional turnovers. When Self has these guys playing fast and keeps them fresh by consistently rotating in players, the team plays great. When the game gets tight, so does Self and that’s when we find ourselves in these close games that come down to the wire with tired players in the lineup and end up being a coinflip whether we win or lose. I.e. NCAA tournament, Conference tournament, WUG championship against Germany, etc etc.
Next rant, the halfcourt offense is TERRIBLE. I can’t think of a time that the “weave” has actually been useful. For the love of god, why can’t we run some real offense. Every once in a while we run a nice backdoor play that results in an alley-oop dunk but not yesterday. We had all returning players on the court and are desperate for a basket and they were running the same entry level weave offense that we run every year that doesn’t do anything. So much for having returning veterans and that being an advantage.
Lastly and maybe most importantly, shooting the 3 is not fools gold, its real gold. Its going to determine if we win or lose in most of our games this season. Face the facts. We suck at inside scoring. There is no excuse for not running plays for Svi and Greene. If they aren’t in the game we still have solid three point shooters and should still look for threes. We will not win games if we don’t hit threes. Self needs to embrace it and change his ‘fool’s gold’ mentality or its going to be much more agonizing season than it needs to be.
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Mason puts himself in that hole where he thinks he has to do it all alone. He was having a bad shooting game so he kept feeding it instead of being a leader. When he plays bad, KU plays bad more often than not.
I give credit to Izzo for the subbing of McQuaid for tum-tum. Otherwise KU’s players lost this game by not making the most basic of shots- a Layup.
@MoonwalkMafia I get we all want to blame Self for his distribution of minutes to certain players but this isn’t something new. This is our coach, I’m shocked so many people thought it was going to be different. We need Self to learn from this loss but that’s just wishful thinking. He’s prepared this team the same way he prepared last years squad. So far having a veteran squad has gotten him no further along then a young team.
We lost because of a poor shooting night. 34% isn’t good enough to beat most teams, regardless of talent. Michigan St made every basket from the 5 minute mark, KU was 2-12 in that span including missed FT’s in 1&1 situations. Perry missed a wide open jumper for the lead which even with the ensuing 3 would have made it a 1 possession game instead of 2.
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@BeddieKU23 It’s not just the distribution of minutes, it’s that he didn’t coach when we needed him to. Driving at the basket in hopes of getting the other team in foul trouble is not coaching. That’s a base strategy. But when you’re on the ropes that can’t be your only option. You have two of the best shooters in the country on this roster, you have to get them looks. I mean, my god, we weren’t even going high-low in the second half. Sure, we threw it in to Lucas (???), but Ellis didn’t even see much.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Otherwise KU’s players lost this game by not making the most basic of shots- a Layup.
Did we have any dunks last night? Why don’t our bigs dunk the darn ball? This isn’t Hoosiers full of small farm kids, dunking makes you feel good, just ask Tyrel Reed.
Has Perry ever made the Rim regret being a rim when he scores? It’s like a fine leather purse, it’s always smooth and soft when he scores.
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Your right it was a poorly coached game when the game got tight. I just saw something that said our guards took 21 of 32 2nd half shots. Good if your making them, the opposite when your top 3 go 9-36 for the game. I just think we are all looking to blame the coach when the real reason for the loss was the fact the ball didn’t get in the hoop enough…
I don’t believe we had a dunk last night. No Lobs which are a staple of the offense.
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Excellent! Is that from “Young Frankenstein?”
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I just want to stay in bed and CRY this morning.
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So I just checked the box score and according to ESPN Devonte had 38 minutes! 38! That means he was only not in the game for 2 minutes! The only other player on the floor that much was Valentine! And what in the world did Devonte show that game to cause Greene to sit? Or move Perry to the 3 to help the awful rebounding? Or play 4 on 5?
I love Devonte. Last year he quickly grew to be one of my favorites. But ask him if he had a great game last night. Even a good game. Was he the best player on the floor? No way he says yes! And this is not on Devonte. He did not show a lack of effort. He made some bad decisions early that plagued his mindset for the rest of the game. Did he ever have a chance to think about his decisions? Reboot his mindset? Bad coaching decision.
That said, the players should have won this game in the first half and never allowed poor coaching down the stretch to matter. KU was way better all half and left up 6 due to poor execution of a solid game plan.
Second half adjustments? Odd substitutions (or lack there of)? Those are questions for Self. But again, none of that should have mattered. This team didn’t “crack it open” as Self likes to say when they had many chances to do so.
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FYI I am still crying.
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I don’t believe Graham has looked good so far in exhibitions games etc. small sample size but he’s seems to have the green light whenever he feels like it, the same guy who’s supposed to be the opposite of Mason and gets people easy baskets. 20% from the field and 20% from 3 are just awful #'s to look at. I get its early but man talk about throwing up some bricks
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“So I just checked the box score and according to ESPN Devonte had 38 minutes! 38! That means he was only not in the game for 2 minutes! The only other player on the floor that much was Valentine! And what in the world did Devonte show that game to cause Greene to sit?”
Well… you are right! Devonte had a horrible game!
But let’s step backwards for a minute, and broaden our perspectives.
I’m pretty sure I have some others who also feel this way… but isn’t Devonte a player that has potential to be a real game-changer?
What if Devonte can become the one to carry a chip? He seems to have a personality drawn towards wanting to be the leader and to be at the top. Maybe a game like this, having played all but 2 minutes, is what he needed to take OWNERSHIP of his failure! He can’t really put the blame somewhere else. Yes… it is a team effort, but accountability breaks down to individual performances. Maybe he can bounce back from this with desire, energy, aggressiveness and start leading this team.
What bothered me the most was the performance from Frank.
I really expected him to come through…
Is this the beginning of the “changing of the guard?” Is Devonte going to step up now and lead this team instead of Frank?
We’ve been edging towards this for a while.
I hope CS realizes that it can be a great thing to have two PGs in a game… but there can only be ONE LEADER!
One of those guys is going to have to take possession of that team.
'08 is not the norm. We had leadership through 3 guards. That is very rare, and it took a miracle come back to win and beat an opponent that didn’t have near the talent/experience we had.
I’ve always kind of wondered if that was the wrong message learned by CS.
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“FYI I am still crying.”
Come on, Stat… BOUNCE BACK!
The only reason this can hurt for too long if you had ambitions of “perfection.” The same “perfection” Calipari had last year.
That isn’t a healthy perspective to have.
You better prepare yourself for more losses… because they are going to come. And unless we find the missing piece it will come in March, too.
This team was over-rated. WUG built plenty of delusion of the quality of this team. I say that, but we DO have the potential for greatness… but it isn’t going to come over night. Lots of hard work and struggle to get there.
There will be a new day for battle. Jump out of the trench and run forward with all guns drawn, buddy!
This could easily be the best thing to happen to us!
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Frustrating last ten minutes last night, but it’s so fun to have college basketball back. Couple thoughts from the game…
The only justification Self could ever have to play either Lucas or Traylor is that they help on the glass and on the defensive end. It’s clearly never been about their offense (understatement of the year). What we saw last night, especially in the last 7 minutes, was a team that couldn’t get a defensive rebound and an MSU team that had no fear of having their shot blocked at the rim. If Lucas and Traylor can’t provide blocked or altered shots at the rim or get a defensive rebound, then they have no purpose being on the court. It’s been multiple years and we’ve yet to see either of those things from them so to expect that to appear now seems a bit too optimistic for me and why it’s so frustrating to see them continually get the playing time that they do.
With how good of a shooting team this is, I think it’s great to have guards who can break down defenses off the dribble. That said, when Mason/Graham/Selden drove last night, it was often reckless and out of control. Rarely saw eyes up looking for shooters to dish to and often left them taking tough shots or getting a charge. Add that to having no real offense other than having the guards just drive and create their own shot, it makes for just plain bad offense.
I always enjoy the discussions here. Glad to have a place to talk KU hoops.
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@drgnslayr I hope you are right. We surely can’t complain about Self using the early hook on him and wrecking his confidence that way. I wonder if playing through some early losses could be a benefit for this team. Will we have a better chip with a mediocre season and a 3-6 seed for the tournament?
A chip is usually developed after going through or overcoming some form of adversity. I’m not sure whether it is fortunate or unfortunate that these early season games (especially against good teams) end up mattering very little for us most years. Will this early season loss be enough to build that chip or will we need to suffer a few more setbacks?
I too worry that constantly trying to recreate 2008 is the real fools gold. That team was special and times have changed.
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This was me last night!
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@drgnslayr This team was over-rated. WUG built plenty of delusion of the quality of this team.
But Self didn’t play the WUG roster…he left Mickelson on the bench all but 3 minutes.
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@Bwag do you think our ranking was due to having diallo?
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on paper there isn’t 4 better teams out there, we just didn’t play to the ranking last night in the last 8 minutes or so.
Even without Diallo we have what 9 guys Soph & up…Hard not to be ranked high. Duke was a top 10 team on paper but they didn’t play to their ranking either.
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Thanks for the laugh. I think you set me straight again. It was a little warped after that KU game last night.
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@Crimsonorblue22 probably, but everything we have heard about Diallo was that he was more raw than Bragg. So I’m not sure having him now would be the magic in the near term. We are good enough to protect the ranking we have, but not if Self plays Lucas/Traylor consistently.
I’m not sure with them in the game that it doesn’t upset the balance of the overall system, putting pressure on the guards to feel they have to compensate and thence come out like they did last night.
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What was most frustrating to me is to again see Self panic halfway through the second half and go to the “just drive it to the rim Frank/Andrew/Elijah/Tyshawn/Sherron offense”… you know, the offensive strategy that has ended every NCAA tournament since 2008.
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What O What could be going on between Bill Self and Hunter Mickelson??? There is hardly one poster on this Buckets site who does not believe that, given court time, Hunter Mickelson could play circles around Lucas and Traylor. The cautious insertion of Bragg last night I can well understand; altho the way MSU played the game was perhaps conducive to Carlton’s gleaning more minutes. But the real enigma so far this season has been Mickelson’s limited duty. If not due to injury, there must be some serious disciplinary stuff going on between Hunter and his coach. His inactivity appears to be snuffing the chances for this squad to develop into a top contender.
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It looks to me like the key to beating this Kansas team (or lineup, anyway) is to defend the three point line. With zero looks for our two best shooters, we look just average. Unfortunately, Bill makes it very easy to defend the 3 because he runs no 3pt offense. You just have to stay within 5 ft. of a stationary man when the ball’s on this side of the court. I don’t doubt that that was part of Izzo’s game plan and I’ll bet we’ll see more of it throughout the season.
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Good points have been made. Self leaves himself open to second guessing on the line up when the guys that play don’t get it done (Lucas, Traylor). My biggest gripe is the wild shots off of penetration that Devonte (especially) and also Frank continued to put up. A lot of those had no chance. And give Greene and Svi a chance to show their stuff a little more. Shave some minutes from Graham and Selden. The criticism of Self is probably justified…some of the same things keep happening. That will continue to be the case. I’ll still take him. But you have to sit back and take this for what it was…an early season loss to a ranked opponent with a great coach and a very good player (maybe great…I don’t know) that had a great night. We didn’t play well…Is that the first time that has happened? No, and it won’t be the last. It happens.
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@RockChalkinTexas I don’t disagree with your sentiment. Its a young season, and maybe this team (that couldn’t take 1/3rd of the roster to WUG/Korea) needed a reality-check that a top15 team isn’t going to fold up and go away. Yes, they will learn. Yes, our gold-medal winners need to feel the sting of defeat just to refocus them.
But I also thing @HighEliteMajor raises proper discussion points. We HAVE more talented kids than Lucas sitting on the bench (Hunter, Bragg). Hunter a top50 recruit. Bragg an F’n McDAA that you know Calipari would be giveng 20mpg to right from Day 1 because Calipari wants what a 20mpg Bragg can give in March Madness. I’d say that philosophy works.
We’ve given all the mpg needed to see nothing, nuthin!..out of Lucas.
I will differ from @HighEliteMajor just a little bit regarding Traylor, who I think should be the 4th big, because he does hustle, he seems to be boxing out for rbds better, he dives on the floor, he puts pressure on the D with his dribble drive, makes his FTs, and apparently he has developed a 10-12ft pullup J, …none of which Lucas has. Nor can anyone say Jamari lacks in confidence. Wish I could say the same about Lucas’ body language, but when you got no game, how much confidence can you truly have?
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@JRyman Man, Ryman…you…you…actually pulled a rose out of a pile-o-crap…!
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Frankly, lets put the WHOLE ARGUMENT about Hunter’s weight and Bragg’s weight to rest right now!
The logic goes something like this:
How many of Calipari’s 6’9 “athletics” weigh more than 220?
Kevin Young, our starting 4 man in 2013, was 190, a fact which should shame any further mention of the weight issue.
Calipari’s 220 lb kids GET mpg…
Kevin Young got mpg, and had heart…
Jeff Withey never got much past 225lbs…
If we don’t change something in the post-rotation lineup, we will get a Tourney exit, which is exactly what this loss felt like…
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Everyone stop posting for a while, please. I need to get back to reality/work!!
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Anybody who watched the game last night saw just how skinny Carlton Bragg is. According to KU, he weighs 220 lbs. Does anybody actually believe he weighs 220?
I don’t remember if it was here or not, but somebody actually said MSU’s style of play was conducive for Carlton Bragg, really? 4 points, 1 foul and goose eggs in every other category is conducive? Mid range jumper is all Bragg can do right now because he’s too damn skinny and weak to hold his position. He had this issue in Korea as well, but because KU steam rolled just everybody, it was overlooked.
KU needs help in the low post, but Carlton Bragg is not the answer because he is not a physical presence. The rotation really needs to be Mickelson, Traylor, Lucas in that order with Bragg subbing for Ellis exclusively. When/if Diallo gets eligible, he moves behind Mickelson and gets more minutes as his skills develop.
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@ralster I have the same issues with the progress (or lack thereof) of Lucas as everyone else. I didn’t select him or anyone else individually to lay blame or focus on. I was putting my disappointment out there on the whole team. I sense people venting but honestly it is only the SECOND game of a very long season.
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Keegan’s ratings
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I rewatched part of the game and noticed there were times when Traylor didn’t get a rebound, and I know what you guys are thinking, “really!??” But he not only sealed his guy off but pushed his man into another MSU player allowing Mason or Ellis to get the rebound.
I’m not sure what hurt him more last night, landing on the ball on the floor weirdly, or when he lost his footing and almost got landed on by an MSU player?
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“But Self didn’t play the WUG roster…he left Mickelson on the bench all but 3 minutes.”
He did play the WUG roster… for the final game against Germany!
Lucas got the big minutes in that one.
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@drgnslayr What I saw in Hunter last night in limited mins. was he didn’t move on offense, he stayed on the block, he set a screen three feet away from his teammate that couldn’t be used. On D he ran down in the paint which is what he is to do, but he was under the basket, making Graham have to come off his man and leaving him open for a three, it ended up being a make.
He had one foul, no biggie there.
Sparty scored 7 points in his three minute stretch. KU scored 2.
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The problem with Traylor?
He does actually offer us a big weapon on offense. When he commits to a low post drive, he is a threat to either score or feed for an assist. But… that requires us to actually run offense.
This ended up being a BAD BALL second half…
If we are going to run BAD BALL as a game strategy, we are better off giving minutes to Hunter and Carlton. Hunter does give us some defense and boards. Carlton… why not give a star freshman more experience minutes?
If you give a guy just a few minutes of a game, he doesn’t take OWNERSHIP of that game. Carlton didn’t play long enough to take ownership. We can’t point a finger at his play and level the blame on him. If he had received more minutes in this game, we might have won… but more… had we lost, he would have had to carry the burden of ownership on that loss, which will typically help a freshman bear down beyond that game.
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@drgnslayr I really like your point about “playing enough minutes to take ownership & responsibility for the loss”. It applies to Devonte as a learning experience, and maybe a bit for Mason. But there were at least 2 or 3 Mason’s missed bunnies that were ohhh, so close…much closer than the weird stuff Devonte was throwing up.
Classic case of forcing the action doesn’t put you at your best, whilst letting the “game come to you” in rhythm gives better reproducibility because muscle memory gets flustered and affected by the adrenaline of stress. Late in games, losing, we call that the “pucker factor”. Interestingly, in 2008, Chalmers and Sherron never puckered.
Lucas, unfortunately for him and for KU, is showing us there is “no” window of productivity, regarding his ability. I am down on him, but not so down on the team. I am a bit down on Self, but, hey, this is his baby to re-adjust. Sink or swim.
My son told me we don’t play a ranked team again until our conference opener vs Baylor in early Jan.
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@RockChalkinTexas I get that it is only the second game of the year, but what makes you think that there will be any improvement? This looks like the same team from the past two seasons.
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@wrwlumpy yep! put bolts on Jamari’s neck, Self’s neck and Lucas too
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Bracketology: Kansas’ loss not as costly as some might think
November 18, 2015 3:04 am ET
Jerry Palm CBS Sports
Last week, we unveiled my preseason bracket projection. The preseason bracket is unique in one important way. It is the only bracket I will do this season that tries to predict what the final bracket in March will look like.
Doing something like that before a single game has been played requires using a LOT of assumptions. If you follow college basketball regularly, you will not be surprised to learn that one of those assumptions is that nobody is going undefeated in the regular season. Oh, sure, it happened last year with Kentucky and the year before with Wichita State, but those are the only two teams in a quarter of a century to finish the regular season without a loss. So, I like my chances with that assumption.
That brings us to Tuesday night. Kansas, one of my projected No. 1 seeds, lost to Michigan State in the Champions Classic in Chicago. Two good teams went at it and one of them had to lose.
However, that loss does not preclude Kansas from becoming a top seed this March. In fact, with the relative expected strength of the Jayhawks’ schedule, they could probably lose another handful of games before you start wondering if they can still be a No. 1 seed.
So, it’s not time to hit the panic button yet. This isn’t football. One loss isn’t going to keep you out of the playoff, and it may not even keep you out of the top four.
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@RockChalkinTexas Well…let’s see if this coach and this team can earn a 1-seed. Nothing is given, it must be earned.
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@wrwlumpy Jamari’s statline of 6pts/7rbds/4for4FTs (100%) is about all we can expect from a role player. Jamari Traylor isn’t the reason we lost this game (see all guys ranked below Mason…). Heck, he had enough wherewithal to stay focused at the FT line and hit every one of them, unlike some of our starters in this 1 game.
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One additional note: KU announcers said during the exhibition games that “the WUG was extremely physical, couldn’t buy a foul call”, while in the NCAA we have a big readjustment to undertake.
It seemed to me that Self’s gameplan was to have Mason, Graham, and Selden FORCE the action and dribble drive to try to draw fouls. But the refs didn’t call it as tight as they did the 2 exhib games, for sure. Self has also said in the past: drive to “pass”, not just drive to score. The 1 time in the 2nd half we find Selden in the corner, he hits a 3. But we let Valentine score 2 x 2pts in the same sequence of 3 possessions. Bad D, net -1 pt.
