Big 12 Expansion
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In all of this, it’s worthwhile to keep in mind that there are two discussions: “What’s best for the Big12” and “What’s best for KU”. Ideally, we should not conflate these two things because they are not always aligned and may lead to separate outcomes.
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
Why don’t we go independent? Our basketball is going to SUFFER making a move like this. We need to hire-in marketing gurus in the AD and go after big independent bucks… we then share with no one.
We tie in with Pac12 we will take a monster hit. It’s such a bad kneejerk reaction. The big money deal is a dream. No one east of Colorado wants to stay awake late at night to watch KU play Washington (beyond KU diehard).
Can’t really answer that , as far s our Basketball teams taking a hit - -not really that sure. - With the Schools that have been added or considering being added - -I’d say were fine. - We are gaining Arizona & Houston BOTH better then Oklahoma and Texas in quality of play. It might be idealistice to be independent and play a schedule like you talk about but not realistic – KU would be committing suicide to try and play that kind of a schedule if your looking at it from a KU stand point and not a League standpoint - - No matter who KU plays you would be surprised at the National media they pull no matter who they play. - -Ku is BLUEBLOOD AAS BLUEBLLOOD can be in Basketball. - -People want to see really good basketball , your true College fan loves seeing Blue Blood basketball. So to say Ku would be or suffer don’t think is necessarily true. - We will have quality teams in this league more then offset losing Tex and OU to the SEC
Again Arizona - - Houston - - & Even Cincinnati are good quality with Houston and Arizona being better then Tex & Houston in Basketball – don’t really think KU Basketball will suffr as much as you beleive
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@drgnslayr This is starting to look like the formation of two super conferences and the rest being minor players unable to attract enough eyeballs. I don’t like it but there’s a real chance that KU ends up being one of those minor players. It would seem that the best case scenario for KU long term would be to get picked up by one of those super conferences, preferably the B1G. UCLA and USC going to the B1G is not simply a shot across the bow, but more like general war with the B1G and the SEC brushing aside the collateral damage they’re responsible for. And if things keep going in the direction they seem to be going, being an independent isn’t that crazy of an idea.
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@rocketdog The point about eyeballs is a critical one. While the both the SEC and B10 have the big media deals, its actually the B10 which now has a much larger media market footprint, including the top 3 (NY, LA and Chicago). The SEC is actually behind others in shear eyeball reach. And, those two and the ACC overlap in markets to a significant extent. I would argue that combining the right B12 and Pac12 schools could result in pretty strong media market footprint, with 5 of the top 12 and 11 of the top 36, many of them that would not have cross-competition. That would mean adding Arizona/Phoenix, Colorado/Denver, either Stanford or Cal/Bay Area, Oregon/Portland and Washington/Seattle to pair with Houston, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Orlando, KC, SLC, and Cincinatti (the latter 3 are top 36), plus some of Sacramento and San Antonio. It won’t be close to the B10, but its not nothing. It would dominate the center of the country to the west (ex LA).
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
I openly admit to having little knowledge in these conference shakeouts. But my gut says to NOT PANIC and get into death deals. I feel like being part of a super conference is an absolute disaster. No more solid conference home/away round robins stinks. And the answer to split up conference by region is not the answer. I know viewing numbers add up to cash dollars… but in the long run I like the strength of identity. And though the Big 12 has changed flavors it still has some bones left that connects history and region.
Just look at our rivalry with Mizzou. It was building into one of the top college basketball rivalries before it dissolved. And now that it has been realized how important it was… they are trying to rebuild it. Not such an easy task… though we see the attempt.
The big $$$ in our conference ALWAYS related to rivalries. Am I the only one who remembered when the Big 8 largely controlled college football with NU/OU games? Had we “kept it real” and stuck together through all of this conference shift garbage we would own college sports today, regardless of the viewing numbers because those big games were MONSTER games that attract the entire USA!
I miss those days… and I hate the idea that we become some kind of begging orphan sister to another conference we have ZERO identity with.
Hey… screw it… let’s go independent. Use our football program strictly as a revenue source finding opponents who fill stadiums and wanting an easy win. Stop dreaming like Kansas football is coming back to something real.
Our basketball program can start looking more like the Harlem Globetrotters… traveling the nation playing ranked teams only. Talk about gaining a recruiting edge… we become the “elite of the elite” by only playing Top 20-25 teams. The money will be outrageous. Our entire schedule will be on ESPN. Our SOS will guarantee us a 1-seed every March… and we won’t get stuck playing in stupid conference tournaments before March Madness. We take time to heal and rest before we go into the big tournament to DOMINATE!
If we are going to leave our history/identity behind, then lets really leave it and go for a real cash in! These super conferences are absolutely stupid!
Nobody will pay jack for an independent basketball program, and we won’t be able to get games from January on. Conferences and the networks won’t bend over backwards to schedule breaks so KU can come play in their sandbox. It would be the death of KU sports as nationally relevant.
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So we were third in revenue. Way higher then other big 12 teams. AAU membership and we have a lot of the KC market, which sure isn’t huge but still a decent market that the big ten doesn’t have…. I guess I don’t get how Bball doesn’t play into this. So all of these TV deals that are driving this are only football related. Literally one of the most televised things in the winter is college Bball. College football doesn’t carry the whole winter. So the UK vs KU Bball matchups have no value over a mediocre Iowa football team vs ucla football? Like I get getting the best football you can, but duke ku etc have such a Bball following. How would that not drive the needle a bit for the TV contracts, to include KU vs ucla, KU MsU etc
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@jayhawks2010 said in Big 12 Expansion:
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So we were third in revenue. Way higher then other big 12 teams. AAU membership and we have a lot of the KC market, which sure isn’t huge but still a decent market that the big ten doesn’t have…. I guess I don’t get how Bball doesn’t play into this. So all of these TV deals that are driving this are only football related. Literally one of the most televised things in the winter is college Bball. College football doesn’t carry the whole winter. So the UK vs KU Bball matchups have no value over a mediocre Iowa football team vs ucla football? Like I get getting the best football you can, but duke ku etc have such a Bball following. How would that not drive the needle a bit for the TV contracts, to include KU vs ucla, KU MsU etc
It’s not that college basketball has no value, but it’s much less than college football. Duke and Kentucky are the only genuine needle movers in college basketball. There were only 8 regular college basketball games that topped 2 million viewers and Duke and Kentucky played in 6 of those games and the other two were lead ins to NFL Playoff games. College football had 100 more games top 2 million viewers for regular season games. There is a lot more money in college football than college basketball.
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What about the ACC and Big East teams?
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Probably so. But basketball does have more games and more nights throughout the week. Like football has pretty much one day, so a one day game might have more, but what about the cumulative effect of a whole week of games. I get that it doesn’t matter compared to Football but I feel like it still has television value when it’s like literally the only thing on outside of the nfl Jan-March. Anyway hopefully it all works out
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@jayhawks2010 said in Big 12 Expansion:
Probably so. But basketball does have more games and more nights throughout the week. Like football has pretty much one day, so a one day game might have more, but what about the cumulative effect of a whole week of games. I get that it doesn’t matter compared to Football but I feel like it still has television value when it’s like literally the only thing on outside of the nfl Jan-March. Anyway hopefully it all works out
It’s not literally the only thing on after football from Jan.-March. The NBA and NHL are also both going strong at that point and each averaged quite a bit higher numbers than college basketball for their nationally broadcast games which were on basically every night.
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@jayhawks2010 said in Big 12 Expansion:
file:///var/mobile/Library/SMS/Attachments/eb/11/DAB2B33D-7A00-4B04-81F7-45EC6DAFA7D8/Image-1.heic
So we were third in revenue. Way higher then other big 12 teams. AAU membership and we have a lot of the KC market, which sure isn’t huge but still a decent market that the big ten doesn’t have…. I guess I don’t get how Bball doesn’t play into this. So all of these TV deals that are driving this are only football related. Literally one of the most televised things in the winter is college Bball. College football doesn’t carry the whole winter. So the UK vs KU Bball matchups have no value over a mediocre Iowa football team vs ucla football? Like I get getting the best football you can, but duke ku etc have such a Bball following. How would that not drive the needle a bit for the TV contracts, to include KU vs ucla, KU MsU etc
An additional point, the conferences own all the college football revenue pie. The NCAA owns the most valuable property: the NCAA Tournament. Once the conferences get ahold of that you’ll see KU’s value skyrocket.
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Sure other things are on, nba and nhl. nba does have their time slot on espn etc. but espn, fox, cbs devote a ton of main tv nights showing college basketball. If it had very little coverage/following they would show way more nba games but they don’t. College Bball would be only on espn 2 or plus. Pretty much all Monday-Wednesday on espn, espn 2, espn + etc is college Bball. Almost all Saturday is college basketball. Big portion of Sunday for the big ten is on cbs. Most of the nba is on tnt.
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@jayhawks2010 Your analysis is correct, but that saturation of college games is precisely why KU would not command a massive audience in the regular season. Too many other choices.
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I think the bottom line is , that we as fans can try and twist things around , wish , hope , , talking about why being independent would work- - the fact is these super conferences are now a reality - -this is the future for football & College sports it’s just the fact of life now.
We can complain & wish all we want about KU not merging , KU becoming an independent KU going to the BIG - -thing is IT’S NOT HAPENING Or as far as the BIG goes not happening for some time to come. - We just don’t bring enough Market value for them to invite. - You can argue all you want. - -If they are not adding Stanford & Washington calling them tweeners where they don’t bring enough value- -then they sure the hell aren’t inviting KU for some time
The Big 12 & KU by talking with these Pac 12 4 Schools is doing what they need to do at this time. We CAN NOT just sit still and do nothing If they did then the Big 12 would be screwed and would be a thing of the past. Then we would have to hang onto our butts and hope to GOD for the best. - This at the present time anyways is about the best scenario - either add these 4 Schools OR just merge total with the PAC 12 we become that 3rd Conference
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So I read where the law makers is Washington & Oregon that said there was a movement to emphasize to put tax pyers and public not wanting to split PAC 12 public Schools. - If they are successful that would force Oregon State? Oregon & Washington State & Washington together - you take one - -you take them both or not at all.
I’m sur the Big 10 would neve accept that as it waters down the amount for evey school because WSU & OSU for sur do not bring enough market value.
This in turn may add more credence to the Big 12 ? Pac 12 joinging together/merging as a mega conference - merging together and having all of these schools come together
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Read Dennis Dodds latest from like a half hour ago. - -Saying the Big 12 was in DEEP discussions with the Pac 12 of adding at least 4 teams to the Big 12 , could be more- - -maybe 6 with Washinton & Oregon. -Talking about how the big 12 has a small lean in their favor with the two leagues
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Seems like we might hear about Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, & Utah first. Oregon and Washington later on, perhaps waiting to see what Notre Dame does. If everything moves forward as rumored I’m really liking how things are shaping up for the Big12.
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Also, Utah fans are something else. Had no idea. If they join this will take some getting used to.
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@RockkChalkk said in Big 12 Expansion:
Also, Utah fans are something else. Had no idea. If they join this will take some getting used to.
Sounds like Arizona State fans are a piece of cake also
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@RockkChalkk said in Big 12 Expansion:
Seems like we might hear about Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, & Utah first. Oregon and Washington later on, perhaps waiting to see what Notre Dame does. If everything moves forward as rumored I’m really liking how things are shaping up for the Big12.
Yea if that is how this shakes out, I’ll be very happy. What would the Vegas odds of the B12 surviving another round of expansion after the OU/UT fiasco?
I would have said 100 - 1 no chance in Hell the B12 would survive as a power conference. But here we are about to poach from the Pac12.
Would LOVE some commentary from Bill Walton right about now.
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Any guesses how soon this gets done with these 4 Schools ? - -End of the week ?
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I’d caution everyone not to count our eggs before they hatch. This has the feel of something that could fall through. There hasn’t been a ton of reporting about it, just the same rumor/tip being repeated over and over, not a lot of hard facts to go off of.
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This has all the feeling of my son and him collecting Pokemon cards.
What would happen if we ditch football? It’s a huge loser for us and why not focus our AD on more productive sports. Then we go independent in basketball with the goal to truly become “America’s team.”
@Texas-Hawk-10 opened my eyes to our potential hit in academic programs and I do consider that a major consideration.
What happens when we think “outside of the box?” Big 10 inclusion is not going to happen and we waste our time having thoughts like that.
We form a union with the west and what happens (besides playing games late at night with viewership #s down)? If we are desperately seeking the financial strength of a conference… will this bring it to us? All I see is suddenly we are playing a bunch of games out west, when TV viewership drops considerably. Why do we win with that?
What could we be without football? Obviously, we won’t be able to join these two super conferences (that aren’t asking us anyways). If we didn’t have the drain of football on our AD what could we become in many other sports? Since Kansas basketball is a well-known brand… why couldn’t we be independent and draw home/away serious with most of the top teams? How would that work financially? Couldn’t individual sports join conference memberships independently?
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@RockkChalkk said in Big 12 Expansion:
I’d caution everyone not to count our eggs before they hatch. This has the feel of something that could fall through. There hasn’t been a ton of reporting about it, just the same rumor/tip being repeated over and over, not a lot of hard facts to go off of.
Colorado Board of regents has a meeting scheduled from between 5:30 & 7 tonight - -not off an site but off offical Web site - -pulled this of post from Baylor board. - Now does this have to do with the talks we had today ? - - hmmmm
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
This has all the feeling of my son and him collecting Pokemon cards.
What would happen if we ditch football? It’s a huge loser for us and why not focus our AD on more productive sports. Then we go independent in basketball with the goal to truly become “America’s team.”
@Texas-Hawk-10 opened my eyes to our potential hit in academic programs and I do consider that a major consideration.
What happens when we think “outside of the box?” Big 10 inclusion is not going to happen and we waste our time having thoughts like that.
We form a union with the west and what happens (besides playing games late at night with viewership #s down)? If we are desperately seeking the financial strength of a conference… will this bring it to us? All I see is suddenly we are playing a bunch of games out west, when TV viewership drops considerably. Why do we win with that?
What could we be without football? Obviously, we won’t be able to join these two super conferences (that aren’t asking us anyways). If we didn’t have the drain of football on our AD what could we become in many other sports? Since Kansas basketball is a well-known brand… why couldn’t we be independent and draw home/away serious with most of the top teams? How would that work financially? Couldn’t individual sports join conference memberships independently?
I think FarmerJayhawk pretty well answered your question about going independent in Basketball. – -Conferenes and networks aren’t going to do any KU favors in the middle of the season and schedule just so we can play them KU going indepedent would be suicide for our program just not workable
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Funny story: a bunch of Az Mildcat fans are going on the Phog and hoping and praying they get invited to the B12. They want to play Kansas, and they are excited about it! That’s going to be a hell of a basketball league- KU, Baylor, Az, Houston were all Top 10 last year. I think we’ll hear very shortly we have AZ, Az St, Utah and Colorado going to the B12. Don’t quote me on it- I have a strong hunch.
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@drgnslayr are you Lew Perkins?
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Ha… Actually, I knew Lew.
I’m expressing my complete frustration with this entire bs. No amount of money is going to put a shine on this turd.
Can’t we bring in some Russian and Chinese teams to our conference? They can draw in millions of viewers and we’ll be RICH! lol
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Why wouldn’t they schedule in a team that would lift their SOS, regardless of the time of year? Their current conference is nothing but a joke anyways. lol
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
Why wouldn’t they schedule in a team that would lift their SOS, regardless of the time of year? Their current conference is nothing but a joke anyways. lol
Nobody is scheduling a random non-con game in February. The money would be terrible, Self would leave, and the program would effectively die. There would be no incentive for, say, Purdue to play KU in February. You’d have to disrupt the regular league schedule or add a game midweek. Which the conferences just won’t do and 3 games in a week just for fun would be not intelligent scheduling. There are good reasons why the last independent joined a conference in 2016. Go look at NJIT’s schedule that last year. Sometimes they played back to back nights, sometimes it was almost 2 weeks between games. Good luck selling season tickets or recruiting when you have no idea when or who we’re playing until the summer.
And that’s not even going into where you park other sports. Or we just drop all but football, basketball, and women’s rowing to meet Title IX compliance. I know some want to drop football and be Gonzaga of the Big East. Which would involve an almost 90% cut to tv revenue. Good luck keeping Self happy, being competitive with NIL, and keeping facilities upgraded with less than $5m per year coming in from TV.
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Now they’re talking about the pac 12 leftovers joining the ACC.
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We should merge with the Pac12 and ACC and rename it the Continental Conference. Great players could be named All-Continent.
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I’m having a hard time figuring out why the Pac 12 talking heads are having such a hard time accepting the Big 12. they snubbed us before when some big 12 teams were possibly thinking about merging and now these same dam people are turning their noses when there is talk of some Pac 12 teams coming to the Big 12.
Still with the ACC reading their boards and for the most part Arizona and State fans think this talk of a loose parentship with the ACC would be a joke and not the answer to the money situation.
My question now becomes though if the Pac 12 does form this relationship with the ACC then what happens with us ? - -Doesn’t paint a very pretty picture and again NO the chances of KU getting an invite to the glamorous BIG is a very remote possibility as they other schools still in line for invites before KU
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Well read this from TOS Greg Swaim tweeted out : " The Big 12 has made their offer to the six Schools in the Pac 12 very clear and has detailed Fox TV numbes to go with it. - - Understand that this offer has expiration date of 30 days. - - -Farmer , what you think ? - -any validity to this have you heard anything ?
I know from reading boards still lots of Arizona - -Arizona St and Utah fans thinking the best move would be for them to join Big 12 - -just don’t know how much truth there is in this but on the other hand I’ve never heard of the guy but same goes FOR NOT being true.
Read an article saying that ESPN owns the shabang with the ACc and that the PAC 12 & the ACC hooking up really wouldn’t make much of difference money wise. - let me hear your thoughts farmer
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Well I’m not feeling nearly as confident as I was earlier. Just listened to Matt Brown from the extra point , and he was saying that from the athletic directors he had talked to about how the Big 12 was in the drivers seat and that it was a close to anything the PAC 12 AD’S were saying Whoaaa not so fast that their weren’t really any serious discussions and not really that sure about this whole Arizona and group joining If it does happen they said it’s going to be awhile it’s not something that is going to happen soon.
He said he really didn’t think the Big 12 was in the drivers seat saying really he doesn’t think there was going to be any more re-alignment or merging until he siad he thinks it’s going to take until Norte Dame makes up their mind what they are going to do. - After they decide then we very well could see the next Domino fall. - He sure wasn’t as positive about the Big 12 getting these teams from the Pac 12 as was thought
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I understand the PAC12 is going into television rights negotiations 2 years early to get a value on their remaining teams. Remaining teams may want to hear that before deciding. I’m thinking this will be a drawn out process.
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@Gorilla72 said in Big 12 Expansion:
I understand the PAC12 is going into television rights negotiations 2 years early to get a value on their remaining teams. Remaining teams may want to hear that before deciding. I’m thinking this will be a drawn out process.
That’s the whole purpose of them opening their negotiations up early so they can make some kind of counter offer to whatever the Big 12 presented yesterday. I still think at the end of the day, 4 teams moving to the Big 12 is the most likely and I could see Oregon and Washington following USC and UCLA to the Big 10 once Notre Dame makes their decision.
Personally, I think all Notre Dame’s decision does is affect how big the Big 10 goes in expansion. If Notre Dame says yes, not as difficult as what some may think, then the Big 10 adds 4 more to get to 20 so they’d be looking for a 4th school, which KU should fight tooth and nail to try and be. If Notre Dame says no, then I think the Big 10 only adds two more being Oregon and Washington.
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Getting this from Baylor board. ( Jim Hill from CBS sports at 6 p.m. reported that Oregon & Washington are also in discussion with Big 12. Hill also mentioned that Phil Knight ( Nike Owner ) and huge booster for Oregon wants to follow USc & UCLA to the BIG or move to the SEC.
2 out of the 6 schools came out today and said they were committed to Pac 12 - ( Arizona State & Utah )
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@jayballer67 said in Big 12 Expansion:
Well read this from TOS Greg Swaim tweeted out : " The Big 12 has made their offer to the six Schools in the Pac 12 very clear and has detailed Fox TV numbes to go with it. - - Understand that this offer has expiration date of 30 days. - - -Farmer , what you think ? - -any validity to this have you heard anything ?
I know from reading boards still lots of Arizona - -Arizona St and Utah fans thinking the best move would be for them to join Big 12 - -just don’t know how much truth there is in this but on the other hand I’ve never heard of the guy but same goes FOR NOT being true.
Read an article saying that ESPN owns the shabang with the ACc and that the PAC 12 & the ACC hooking up really wouldn’t make much of difference money wise. - let me hear your thoughts farmer
The Big 12 is trying to get the 6 attainable big dogs in the PAC: 4 corners + Oregon and Washington. I don’t think Stanford and Cal are interested.
Some PAC 12 presidents would much rather be associated with the ACC than Big 12. Which is fair. The ACC is a terrific academic league with UNC, dook, UVA, GA Tech. All well above anything the Big 12 has to offer. Smart financially? No. But they have huge endowments and can sacrifice some revenue for academics. KU? Not so much.
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I’ll remain the barking dog… but I appreciate all the opinions here because it educates me on this disgusting topic. Thank you!
Question: Does any of this challenge antitrust laws? Do antitrust laws still exist? I realize conferences represent associations versus buyouts… but still…
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The only expansion I’m concerned about is my waistline.
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Here is a list of the best remaining teams we can scrap for:
https://www.boardingschoolreview.com/basketball-boarding-school-sports
(sarcasm… as usual)
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Apparently North Carolina, Florida State, Clemson, and Virginia are in talks to join the SEC. If it happens it could open up a whole other can of worms with the ACC leftovers. The possibilities seem endless. Teams like Pitt, Miami, NC State, Duke, Louisville, etc. could start to be looked at.
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Wake me when it’s over…
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
I’ll remain the barking dog… but I appreciate all the opinions here because it educates me on this disgusting topic. Thank you!
Question: Does any of this challenge antitrust laws? Do antitrust laws still exist? I realize conferences represent associations versus buyouts… but still…
I have to imagine that behind the scenes there is a massive breach of contract going on at the very least. My gut tells me something illegal, but who is going to speak up about it? Schools aren’t going to bite the hand that feeds them, ya know?
KU isn’t going to sue ESPN for tampering because they still need ESPN.
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Wow… I’d feel much better about going east than west! Bring these teams into the Big12!
How about we name our new conference “F*CK THE SEC!”
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@RockkChalkk said in Big 12 Expansion:
Apparently North Carolina, Florida State, Clemson, and Virginia are in talks to join the SEC. If it happens it could open up a whole other can of worms with the ACC leftovers. The possibilities seem endless. Teams like Pitt, Miami, NC State, Duke, Louisville, etc. could start to be looked at.
ya I’m hearing this too. - -SEC talking to ESPN or whoever it is about getting this GOR void for these ACC teams. They were talking saying if this happens would really help big 12 cause forcing the Pac 12 Schools plus possibly looking at Louisville & Miami from the ACC. - I can’t keep up with this anymore just crazy.
Like one said though you can say good bye to March Madness
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@drgnslayr said in Big 12 Expansion:
Wow… I’d feel much better about going east than west! Bring these teams into the Big12!
How about we name our new conference “F*CK THE SEC!”
Some talk I’ve seen too that if this were to happen possibility of Louisville & Miami from the imploded ACC
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️ the suspense is once again killing me.
