What's our fate?
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As the afterglow of victory slowly fades to things of the future I begin to wonder what is going to happen to KU Basketball. My mind waffles between these results.
1 Nothing happens. If they can’t render a decision with a penalty after this long they’re not going to do anything.
2 We get a slap on the wrist. Loss of a scholarship, coach gets a minor 1-10 game suspension.
3 We get more serious consequences but not a program altering one. This is what I’ve heard from people guessing just like we are. Half a year suspension for the coach, postseason ban of one year, multiple scholarship losses.
4 Most serious. Year long suspension for Bill Self. Postseason ban. Multiple year scholarship losses, and…???
None of these 4 scenarios are anything I’ve heard is definite in that persons mind, just their own speculation of what is going to happen. Some of you follow this more closely than I do, and while I like to think 1 is going to be our consequence, I just don’t know.
I hate the thought of being a fan of a dirty program. I’ve read tweets/FB comments of former fans who walked away in disgust.
What I don’t want in this discussion is what aboutism. I know there’s other dirty programs but if we committed infractions then it doesn’t matter what AZ or Duke did.
So thanks for your opinions.
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Too soon
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I guess no one wants to talk about this reality
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I think it should be option 2 but will be the first to admit I am not super knowledgeable about the matter. Its my understanding that an adidas booster was involved with some shady business with the Billy Preston camp. I think a fair punishment should be that KU has to vacate all games that BP played in. Its too bad KU didn’t get suspicious about a new car, etc., and voluntarily hold him out until things were explained. Oh wait - they did! BP didn’t play a second for KU in any regular season action. I just don’t think people who discuss it all factor that part of it into the equation.
Second, I recall something about Silvio getting like $2,500. And wasn’t he not at all aware of it? Like it was his “handler” that orchestrated the whole thing. AND, that money was given to him to steer him to MARYLAND! Silvio messes up the whole deal by visiting KU and deciding this is the place he wants to go based purely off of his decision, no steering or money influence (because he is not aware that it happened). Now the Maryland camp needs to be paid back because Silvio isn’t going there and the KU/Adidas rep makes them whole. The money that was spent by Silvio’s handler was given to him by the Maryland camp, not KU. The money given to them from the KU/Adidas rep went back to Maryland’s guys, to pay them back. Note, Maryland is not being discussed as making any violations which I think is a joke. Silvio should have had to sit out several games over this $2,500 issue. Oh wait, KU already did this for many many games due to eligibility issues. Silvio was punished enough to cover $2,500 worth of games in my opinion but i’m sure i’m biased and the rest of the world sees it differently.
KU was probably more aware and involved (like every single other big program out there is) than I stated above but think they dodged some big bullets by sitting BP and SD when they could have played them like some of the other schools elected to do with their questionable guys. I just hope that stuff is considered.
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If the recent NCAA changes have any bearing kids currently enrolled shouldn’t be impacted. I don’t trust that reality but it would perhaps be the best case scenario if the punishments are for individuals and not the team, meaning no postseason ban. I cannot see KU accepting a post-season ban. War at that point. I could be wrong but I do think that is the line KU will not accept.
The lowest hanging fruit I see is taking the Final 4 banner from 2018. Yes the same banner Silvio helped us get, while being eligible and cleared by the NCAA, only to be made ineligible after the fact of the NCAA finding out stuff per the FBI trial, only to have his eligibility reinstated after exhausted expenses and effort were made by KU. Only for him to transfer out after issues on and off the court, only to play in the NCAA tournament this year for another team. Yupp that web of bull-crap.
No idea what becomes of the Preston/Diallo situation.
I also think Self will take this to court if he was suspended a full year etc. Any penalty that does considerable damage to his reputation, ability to coach the team in the future his warning shot he gave the NCAA could be become a real situation.
It would be nice to know what went down in Indy with the IARP/NCAA situation a month or so ago where allegedly there was conflict about a resolution between KU/IARP being discussed and shot down by the NCAA. Rumors that have had no additional details provided so far.
I’m just waiting to see what happens. If KU is forced into severe penalties I will be reevaluating being a fan of College Basketball. I don’t see the point in supporting the product anymore if KU is held out to dry in this situation
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@BeddieKU23 don’t think I’ll stop watching KU games but I already don’t watch too much basketball beyond that.
I just have a hard time figuring out what was sooo bad about this situation. The worst thing they can point to actually happening is a couple of kids getting some money, MAYBE. In a sport where the coaches make millions and the ncaa even more. And from my perspective KU did everything it could to make that right by sitting the kids out, working with the NCAA on eligibility, etc. What is the WORST part of this scandal for everyone. Like which part makes you think, yeah, KU and Self really messed up with that?
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I’m not sure I could stop watching games but its on the table if that’s where this goes. My bigger issue has always been with the NCAA being the single worst organization. I have seen so many unfathomable situations & decisions the NCAA has made over the years that I’ve become numb to it. This KU case has a lot of ramifications beyond just us. The booster designation being applied to KU’s case is significant for every single school.
To answer the last part, nothing KU/Self/Townsend did is illegal. Nothing.
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I too am guessing , yet I dunno I just get a gut feeling and yes I know the NCAA turned it over to this what is it Iiarp what the hell ever - but I still think them and the NCAA go hand in Hand working together. As we all know or should know the NCAA , has had a hard on for KU for some time now wanting to stick it to us if there was any way feasible that they could. Why ? - -because KU won’t put up with their BS , KU has always fought back and just won’t be that whipping dog, which just frustrates the NCAA to no end.
Having said that if this group finds against KU & Coach Self. - I think they will try and hit us and hit us Hard. - With the alleged 5 Level 1 penalities which is the most severe they are gonna want to take that and run with it and run for all it’s worth. So I guess I would have to agree pretty much with the summary you have with # 3.
It will be Serious , trying to make an example out of a Blue Blood , trying to send a message trying to act like they got total control of Schools - - -they don’t. So like I said I do agree mostly with the # 3 I just have this feeling they WILL come down with show cause for Coach Self the extent of it I don’t really know but just feel they will try and stick that dam lack of institutional control on him… If he is suspended I really think it will be for the year, which in turn I’m afraid IF that happens Coach Self may just very well say screw this I am done with the NCAA and walk away. I think we will also be hit with a year ban from the NCAA tourney , which will bite because that would stop our record for having the longest appearances in the Tourney , I think this was our what either 31st or 32nd straight year ? Yet I’m not sure about multiple losses of scholarships I think possibly ONE. - - Plus if we get hit I think our asst will be let go. - It isn’t gonna be nice I’m afraid - -you can take it to the bank KU will fight this through Court for the longest time if needed
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So was the KC Jayhawks on purpose or is he that stupid? How much money did we pull in for them?
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He’s really that stupid
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I still think probation, forfeiting the games Silvio played in during his freshman season, scholarship reduction, and a show-cause for Townsend is the most likely outcome.
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@BeddieKU23 it made me mad, didn’t he say it twice?
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par for the course with him. Just a clown boy that needs to hang it up. It was so awkward too
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@BeddieKU23 said in What's our fate?:
par for the course with him. Just a clown boy that needs to hang it up. It was so awkward too
Who are we talking about here?
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@BShark said in What's our fate?:
@BeddieKU23 said in What's our fate?:
par for the course with him. Just a clown boy that needs to hang it up. It was so awkward too
Who are we talking about here?
The guy who think he runs the NCAA
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Oh Emmert. LUL
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@BeddieKU23 I can imagine how Self felt! @wissox see how we are treated? Don’t even know we are from Lawrence!
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@wissox I just don’t have a grasp of what is fair/what will happen. There has been such a large disparity in punishments for schools involved.
OSU got the book. NC State got a slap on the wrist.
NC State went through the IARP and should be very similar to our case (I would think). Resulted in one-year probation and a show-cause order for Gottfried.
“We specifically discussed whether or not we were going to impose a postseason ban, and we basically determined that we didn’t want to hurt or punish the student-athletes that are currently competing,” said Dana Welch, an arbitrator who served on the IRP. “We did, however, want the institution to take this very seriously, there were very serious recruiting violations here.”
This is what I would think we would get. Bill maybe gets a 1-year show-cause and KT will get 3-4 years or something like that. I’m guessing there will be a nice big fine and possibly a scholarship while under the show-cause orders. Possible vacating of the 2018 FF (which would be kind of funny to see as we put up the new banners).
But, we could get the book thrown at us. Bill made an example of.
Will be interesting if he is able to keep the name Teflon Bill after this is settled.
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Thanks all I’ve been super busy and haven’t had a chance to read thru everything. Two soccer matches after school so I won’t be home til seven. Then I’ll read everything!
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The KC mistake is very common for people who don’t live there. Not a big deal nationally–just feeds KU paranoia.
My wife is a pure adopted Jayhawk (probably more passionate than I am) and makes this mistake all the time. Calls the Chiefs “Kansas” and KU Kansas City.
As a judge I learned a lot about how people remember things. One thing was about how we “file” certain words in our memories. “Kansas” and “Kansas City” end up interchangeable in the minds of people not from there. Not a big deal. Really!
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In a way, it was a bigger slap to Mizzou who has claimed KC as their market…
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@bskeet said in What's our fate?:
In a way, it was a bigger slap to Mizzou who has claimed KC as their market…
I never will understand why they haven’t latched on to the St. Louis area.
St. Louis is such a fertile recruiting area, only has the Hockey and Baseball pro teams, and is a great TV market. And St. Louis is closer than KC.
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@Kcmatt7 They tried with Cuonzo
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@Kcmatt7 said in What's our fate?:
@wissox I just don’t have a grasp of what is fair/what will happen. There has been such a large disparity in punishments for schools involved.
OSU got the book. NC State got a slap on the wrist.
NC State went through the IARP and should be very similar to our case (I would think). Resulted in one-year probation and a show-cause order for Gottfried.
“We specifically discussed whether or not we were going to impose a postseason ban, and we basically determined that we didn’t want to hurt or punish the student-athletes that are currently competing,” said Dana Welch, an arbitrator who served on the IRP. “We did, however, want the institution to take this very seriously, there were very serious recruiting violations here.”
This is what I would think we would get. Bill maybe gets a 1-year show-cause and KT will get 3-4 years or something like that. I’m guessing there will be a nice big fine and possibly a scholarship while under the show-cause orders. Possible vacating of the 2018 FF (which would be kind of funny to see as we put up the new banners).
But, we could get the book thrown at us. Bill made an example of.
Will be interesting if he is able to keep the name Teflon Bill after this is settled.
I agree with most of this. The only difference really is Gottfried was actively making the payments, where Townsend has some plausible deniability.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Not sure calling us the KC Jayhawks is anything to get uptight about. I stood in front of church yesterday to lead the congregational prayer and said “please pray FOR me”, instead of saying please pray WITH me! Guys our age make mistakes, a slip of the tongue.
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@Kcmatt7 Can you explain “Show-Cause”? I’ve never heard that term.
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@wissox said in What's our fate?:
@Kcmatt7 Can you explain “Show-Cause”? I’ve never heard that term.
Show-cause is basically a suspension for a set amount of time where a coach is not allowed to coach in any capacity at an NCAA institution. If a school hires a coach during that time, they have show cause why that school shouldn’t be penalized for hiring that coach.
Let’s say for example that Coach Townsend got hit with a 5 year show-cause from this investigation. That means he would essentially be suspended for 5 years and KU or any other school that keeps/hires him would have to prove to the NCAA why they shouldn’t get penalized for hiring him.
It’s meant to punish a coach for committing violations and holding them accountable instead of the school.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in What's our fate?:
@Kcmatt7 said in What's our fate?:
@wissox I just don’t have a grasp of what is fair/what will happen. There has been such a large disparity in punishments for schools involved.
OSU got the book. NC State got a slap on the wrist.
NC State went through the IARP and should be very similar to our case (I would think). Resulted in one-year probation and a show-cause order for Gottfried.
“We specifically discussed whether or not we were going to impose a postseason ban, and we basically determined that we didn’t want to hurt or punish the student-athletes that are currently competing,” said Dana Welch, an arbitrator who served on the IRP. “We did, however, want the institution to take this very seriously, there were very serious recruiting violations here.”
This is what I would think we would get. Bill maybe gets a 1-year show-cause and KT will get 3-4 years or something like that. I’m guessing there will be a nice big fine and possibly a scholarship while under the show-cause orders. Possible vacating of the 2018 FF (which would be kind of funny to see as we put up the new banners).
But, we could get the book thrown at us. Bill made an example of.
Will be interesting if he is able to keep the name Teflon Bill after this is settled.
I agree with most of this. The only difference really is Gottfried was actively making the payments, where Townsend has some plausible deniability.
KU’s coaches have acknowledged money changed hands in exchange for recruits coming to KU. This isn’t a courtroom setting where someone has to prove beyond reasonable doubt what happened. There’s enough evidence with the Silvio situation that KU’s coaches were aware and likely authorized the payments to get Silvio out of his deal with Maryland to come to Kansas.
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I will say Bill has definitely crossed some lines and we deserve some consequences. It’s embarrassing as an alum to be honest. I had a dude a few years back, total stranger tell me basically out of the blue “your coach is the dirtiest coach in America”. I think maybe the dirtiest just retired, not sure if anyone heard, but the old man at Dewk hung it up. I see chatter on my other teams site and people with the blue blood FF saying I can’t cheer for any team because I don’t like Villanova and the other 3 are the dirtiest teams in America.
I want to keep basking in the glow of this championship. But I also want the NCAA to end this and give us what’s coming, right or wrong. I hate the NCAA for their mismanaged organization. I want to see the future for our team with the cloud removed.
Thanks @Kcmatt7 @BeddieKU23 for your response.
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@wissox These kids did nothing wrong. If folks can’t enjoy it now, they probably never will and that is their problem, not ours. What a bunch of miserable people, glad I’m not one of “them”!
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Not concerned about the KC Jayhawks at all. Baptisms go wrong too:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60409113
Can a non KU hater please explain what the dirtyness is? charges? Infractions? None of my Mizzou fan inlaws can clue me in other than the usual stupid stuff.
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@dylans said in What's our fate?:
@wissox These kids did nothing wrong. If folks can’t enjoy it now, they probably never will and that is their problem, not ours. What a bunch of miserable people, glad I’m not one of “them”!
Exactly. Good luck finding anything dirty in this group of misfit over achiever players anyway. Good grief, I waited a day to even reply to this this topic, but what is up with some KU fans constantly anticipating doom and gloom even in victory? I’ve already run across people who think Self still F’d up this year by not playing young guys more for next season.
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@DanR I hope I’m not being doom and gloom but realistic. It sounds like we’re going to get in some trouble, I’m just trying to figure out what it might be, even if it’s wrong.
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@DanR said in What's our fate?:
@dylans said in What's our fate?:
@wissox These kids did nothing wrong. If folks can’t enjoy it now, they probably never will and that is their problem, not ours. What a bunch of miserable people, glad I’m not one of “them”!
Exactly. Good luck finding anything dirty in this group of misfit over achiever players anyway. Good grief, I waited a day to even reply to this this topic, but what is up with some KU fans constantly anticipating doom and gloom even in victory? I’ve already run across people who think Self still F’d up this year by not playing young guys more for next season.
Have you not bothered to look at what Texashawk has brought up and less you just have missed it was brought to light early in this - -KU Coach’s have admitted to money being exchanged to try and bring recruits > we are not innocent in this by any means. Now whether it’s as severe a some try to make it out - - who knows but if you get FIVE LEVEL 1 infractions leveled at you - then this thing is no joke – not trying to find any dam doom and gloom as you so put - -it’s simply called REALITY. - -these group of players we went through or had doings with was a baad stretch Silvio . Billy , and even trying to get involved in this fricken Zion mess. It is what it is and what it is to no matter what it is - we are not squeaky clean in this. When there is this much smoke - -there is fire
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I could be wrong… but for the most part, we are on record for phone messages, like “we okay?” and Townsend making slippery comments about a recruit getting money. KU vehemently denies Townsend’s guilt of NCAA violations -
https://www2.kusports.com/news/2021/jan/29/report-appeals-court-judge-calls-question-previous/
I think we only admitted knowledge of payments made after the federal findings were released. The entire world had knowledge at that point.
We are “guilty” because of the tarnished reputation of college basketball. So if someone says, “we okay?”, that has to mean this, that and the other thing, but all of it surely must mean guilt.
I’ll say just this… if this was a murder case and the defendant had even a marginal defense attorney, this would never see a courtroom.
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Between the time of the alleged infractions and now (like 5 years, right?), the courts have told the NCAA that they are violating the players’ constitutional rights. Subsequently, massive changes in rules and policies were made, specifically applying to compensation/payment of players.
I’m not sure if or how many rules changes directly apply to our infractions… For instance: if a team did exactly what we are accused of doing today instead of 5 years ago, would it would be a violation? Nonetheless, I do think the rules changes in place today significantly change behaviors such that whatever was alleged probably would not have happened.
Bottom line, NCAA is culpable of generations-long exploitation of players and have been called out. Programs — not one or two, but virtually all major programs — worked around the edges of these unconstitutional practices and policies for decades. They did so because the NCAA was wrong.
At this point, it seems clear to me that the NCAA was the pot calling the kettle black.
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@drgnslayr This is a Nike hit job. Nothing more…nothing less. They’ll lay us out, and we’ll sue them.
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Years ago, in the Jaybate days… I wrote my thoughts about Nike and their “mafia like” business model, which includes a company-operated black and gray market of goods.
I also don’t believe Adidas is innocent.
You can buy authentic-made goods from both through “dark markets” for pennies on the dollar. Because of the technology in shoes, these “dark products” often are made in the same facilities, using the same very specific materials.
I gave an example of buying real Adidas shoes in Thailand for $3.00. These shoes would, at that time, be sold for $40 or $50 retail. Should give you an idea of just how much $$$ is involved in the shoe world.
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Minor updates to the IARP thing from Vernon LOL.
KU/IARP submitted “proposed joint agreement” on Feb 25th.
Self requested the NCAA enforcement staff produce documents to be reviewed by the IARP, also from early February.
Lots of transparency here, all from the transparency website the NCAA setup.
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@BeddieKU23 said in What's our fate?:
Minor updates to the IARP thing from Vernon LOL.
KU/IARP submitted “proposed joint agreement” on Feb 25th.
Self requested the NCAA enforcement staff produce documents to be reviewed by the IARP, also from early February.
Lots of transparency here, all from the transparency website the NCAA setup.
Was there…tension?
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I think they hit us pretty hard. And sadly I think most of it is deserved. I do think Self gets a suspension and a show cause and KT is Audi 5000.
Admittedly I don’t fully understand what the “show cause” means. What the ramifications of that really add up to.
I believe it’s atleast a 1 yr ban, taking down all games Silvio played in including the FF and if I’m not mistaken the last year of the “streak”.
The biggest thing is from all I’ve seen and heard I do believe that Self lied about not engaging in that shit essentially. That probably bugs me most. (Yes I’m aware "everybody’s doin it)
I’d say most are correct in the idea that Self and KU will sue. But that will be only a civil matter. To gain some amount of settlement $$ as “the victim”. That won’t change the outcome of the penalties. The IARP which we agreed to is final and non appealable.
Let’s not forget the KU submitted that Adidas was a booster to the NCAA to try to get Silvio reinstated. And… Yes I believe that was a dirty underhanded move by the NCAA to trap us into a situation we can’t bargain out of.
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@cragarhawk said in What's our fate?:
I think they hit us pretty hard. And sadly I think most of it is deserved. I do think Self gets a suspension and a show cause and KT is Audi 5000.
Admittedly I don’t fully understand what the “show cause” means. What the ramifications of that really add up to.
I believe it’s atleast a 1 yr ban, taking down all games Silvio played in including the FF and if I’m not mistaken the last year of the “streak”.
The biggest thing is from all I’ve seen and heard I do believe that Self lied about not engaging in that shit essentially. That probably bugs me most. (Yes I’m aware "everybody’s doin it)
I’d say most are correct in the idea that Self and KU will sue. But that will be only a civil matter. To gain some amount of settlement $$ as “the victim”. That won’t change the outcome of the penalties. The IARP which we agreed to is final and non appealable.
Let’s not forget the KU submitted that Adidas was a booster to the NCAA to try to get Silvio reinstated. And… Yes I believe that was a dirty underhanded move by the NCAA to trap us into a situation we can’t bargain out of.
Well there is some of us that agree with you even though others think we are just being Negative Nelie’s if I am then so be it. We are not squeaky clean in this sad to sad and like you say and some others I DO think Coach Self will get hit with a show Cause probably a yr suspension as far as the other stuff goes - - who knows - -maybe a year ban from the tourney. All I know is FIVE which is the most severe level I’s is nothing to sneeze at - - they just didn’t pull these out their ass even if just one is proven as big of an hard on The NCAA has for Ku will be enough between them and this committee to get Coach off the sideline for awhile - At this point I’m just ready to get done with this BS. - If w have penalties coming then so be. Give to us and let’s get on from here I’m so sick of the NCAA and their petty BS. - We will make it through this one way or another - -let’s just get it done
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I think of it somewhat like getting a ticket for driving 65 where 55 is posted where people are driving 60-75 all the time.
Driving 55 is the only way to be “squeaky” clean. But driving 55 in that environment makes no sense — you’ll get blown by and put yourself in a position to get hurt.
So you with the flow of traffic and drive 65 in the 55. You don’t go 70, even though others are. You aren’t going the fastest or the slowest.
If the enforcers set up a snare and decide to single you out, what can you do?
It’s a pretty disingenuous application of the law but you can’t get out of it by saying “everyone is driving over the limit.”
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@bskeet KU can’t drive…fifty five!
Here’s a nice, simply stated story on what KU faces.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/06/1091334394/university-kansas-ncaa-violations
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Taken from the Phog… This poster’s father is connected to the Athletic Department. He’s usually been solid on his info. Here’s what he had to say…
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So, my father isn’t as in tune with this as much as other aspects of the Athletic Department; but some general things: Self and the KUAD are now pushing for this to be over. This whole time, they were content to delay this until the end of time; but the tune has changed and Self is ready to ‘take some medicine’ to move past this. That may mean abdicating to some demands.
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So, from what I understand, Self was willing to fight any violation and any punishment to the ends of the Earth. Now he’s willing to take a small hit so he can move forward. The extent of those violations and punishments is not entirely clear right now (because no deal has been made); but apparently Bill and KT are willing to take suspensions in the non-con. Apparently there may have been something to Vernon’s hearings that the NCAA wanted a post season ban (possibly for multiple years) for the coaches; but that is a no-go for Self. We are apparently willing to meet them on fines, and a small scholarship reduction. Apparently vacating wins or a F4 is out of the question. If they can make a deal on a palatable agreement, then this thing will be done soon. If the IARP doesn’t play ball, then it’s back to fighting them every inch again.
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@BeddieKU23 said in What's our fate?:
Taken from the Phog… This poster’s father is connected to the Athletic Department. He’s usually been solid on his info. Here’s what he had to say…
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So, my father isn’t as in tune with this as much as other aspects of the Athletic Department; but some general things: Self and the KUAD are now pushing for this to be over. This whole time, they were content to delay this until the end of time; but the tune has changed and Self is ready to ‘take some medicine’ to move past this. That may mean abdicating to some demands.
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So, from what I understand, Self was willing to fight any violation and any punishment to the ends of the Earth. Now he’s willing to take a small hit so he can move forward. The extent of those violations and punishments is not entirely clear right now (because no deal has been made); but apparently Bill and KT are willing to take suspensions in the non-con. Apparently there may have been something to Vernon’s hearings that the NCAA wanted a post season ban (possibly for multiple years) for the coaches; but that is a no-go for Self. We are apparently willing to meet them on fines, and a small scholarship reduction. Apparently vacating wins or a F4 is out of the question. If they can make a deal on a palatable agreement, then this thing will be done soon. If the IARP doesn’t play ball, then it’s back to fighting them every inch again.
The more I research it, the better I feel about it. This is going to be a small hit- not the biggie I envisioned.
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We shall see. Any outcome is possible with the NCAA
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@BeddieKU23 said in What's our fate?:
We shall see. Any outcome is possible with the NCAA
This is why I feel better about it. This is from an attorney on Jayhawk Slant:
This is an administrative process, not even a civil or criminal one, and the bar for “guilt” is “more likely than not”. So that is bothersome.
That said, I have some experience with administrative hearings and judgments, and read through every page of KU’s law firm response to the allegations (I didn’t read through HCBS’s response, assuming it was essentially identical). IMHO, the law firm eviscerated the NCAA allegations, including to reference in-house conversations immediately after the wiretapped conversations and texts, and those in-house and contemporaneous conversations support KU’s position that no wrong-doing occurred by HCBS, et al. In other words, when those happened, no one had any reason to believe they needed to “cover” themselves.
To take one “episode”, DeSousa’s guardian attested to not knowing the $2,500 was even coming and when he contacted the Adidas sleazeball about it, he basically said he was sure the guardian knew what to do, or words to that effect. The guardian said he kept, I believe, $500 or so and gave the rest to charity.
IMHO Self’s, and the U’s, adamant public denials of violations combined with KU’s response, make it highly unlikely that the NCAA will issue any significant punishment. Any finding of fault would seem at great risk to be overturned based on being arbitrary and not supported by facts in evidence. [Emphasis mine - HE] (In one admin case I participated in, the guilt finding was thrown out because it relied on what might have happened vs what could be conclusively shown.) I would expect both KU and HCBS to sue including to demand an immediate injunction. I don’t think the NCAA wants another NIL-like embarrassment, but also KU wants this to go away. So I’d bet that behind the scenes there’s a negotiation going on whereby KU and HCBS et al admit no guilt but agree to HCBS being held out of practice for some time period or maybe not coaching some number of games at season start, or something similar. Self may be reluctant to agree even to something like that, he certainly presents himself that way, but he also could recognize that a wrist slap in face of allegation of five, Level 1 infractions, would be a clearcut victory.
Finally, given that all this has been brought about by illicit behavior of Adidas employees, it wouldn’t be surprising if there’s some “hold harmless” language floating around whereby much of KU’s legal expenses are paid by Adidas.
General process is can’t pursue relief in court until letting the administrative process run its course. So no court is likely to accept it until all recourse within NCAA has occurred. But there’ve been instances wherein NCAA final decision was reversed or blocked in court filing. Relief can be granted if the member had no choice/was coerced, the process violated the org’s own policies (very often the case), or the policies were in themselves illegal or unenforceable.
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@rockchalkjayhawk said in What's our fate?:
Here’s a nice, simply stated story on what KU faces.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/06/1091334394/university-kansas-ncaa-violations
That story is misleading. It summarizes the FBI case by lumping KU into the allegations where school employees were directly involved in the Adidas payments. The FBI investigation concluded that KU did not know of them and, in fact, was the victim of the scheme.
The article also fails to address the unique theory that attempts to make KU liable for the Adidas scheme, i.e., that Adidas was a booster solely because we relied on Adidas help in recruiting, and we had a duty to detect and report Adidas misconduct.
The booster thing is important because it creates a special type of agency. In the law, you are responsible for things your agent does in the course of agency. But agency also requires a showing of control over the agent. Someone who does something for another, even by request or contract, is not automatically an agent if they are independent. (The fact that Adidas did not recruit exclusively for KU does not defeat agency, but it is a significant factor against it.)
The NCAA is trying to label Adidas as our booster, and from there to bootstrap all the attributes of agency into the relationship, including the duties to supervise all their conduct, put protections in place to prevent misconduct, and detect and cure any violations found. How in the world could KU supervise a multinational corporation?
An analogy would be any other procuring relationship. Take Boeing, for example. Let’s say in the 80’s Boeing needed more chrome, which was harder to get from South Africa when sanctions for impartheid were being enacted. They go out and hire some guys from the mob who have a reputation for being able to find things via underground connections, and they tell them to get South African chrome “no questions asked,” i.e., on the black market. The mob sneaks chrome in in obvious S African crates, bypassing customs. Yes, Boeing has contracted with authorization for illegal transactions and could be held liable. But if Boeing hires another company that specializes in identifying and finding legal sources of materials, with a long history of working with lots of companies and having ongoing relationships with suppliers, and contracts to puchase chrome, then Boeing has not created an agency relationship rendering them liable for any illegally procured chrome received in legal-appearing crates. They are merely a customer, not charged with knowledge of where it came from since legal sources existed.
And yes, they would be the victim if their new supplier defrauded them by procuring chrome that might be seized if it was illegally imported.
KU’s “admission” that Adidas was a booster was for the purposecof the Silvio case only. There are ways that lawyers can do “limited purpose” admissions that absolutely prohibit collateral use, but I have no idea if KU did theirs properly.
One other thing that needs to be addressed: if the IARP exceeds its authority or violates its own procedures, the unappealability of its decision goes out the window. Private organizations are required to follow their own rules, and any findings/sanctions, have to be grounded in the referral charter/warrant/whatever. Waiving the right of appeal would not, for example, authorize the IARP to prohibit KU from participation in all sports, or require closing the Student Union.
If the booster theory works, I want the NCAA to charge Oregon and other Nike schools with aiding and abetting violations of child labor laws in getting their shoes.
No opinion on anything not specifically discussed above!
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Hope your right.
