Gonzaga Game Thread
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Let’s talk about Jeff bad takes Goodman
https://twitter.com/GoodmanHoops/status/406823435751284736
“Not good news for KU when Frank Mason takes shot with game on the line.”
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@approxinfinity said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 2013-2014 and 2018-2019 were both talented rosters on paper. I think I agree it won’t be a 10 loss team, simply because Marcus is as tough a leader as they come and we are returning more talent than 2013-2014, but it’s a team that lost its PG and AA Big, that appears to be missing a reliable rim protector unless this showing by Dave is anomalous.
With the Big 12 being very competitive this year, I think 8 losses is likely.
2013-14 had Naadir Tharpe running point, enough said. 2018-19 had all kinds of injury issues and was just a very inexperienced team overall considering half of the current rotation was on that team. Garrett is a far better PG than Tharpe ever was and I would take this version of Garrett over freshman Dotson was.
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@BShark said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
@Kcmatt7 said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
@BShark I just think we are more like a 10 loss team this year. Will drop a couple of games the three doesn’t drop I’m thinking.
Still wouldn’t want to play us in March/April
I think 6-7 losses. 21-22 wins with the lower game total schedule. This assumes all games are actually played.
pretty much what my Nephew & I were thinking : - - Lost today , - -good chance we lose to Kentucky , lose at least once to Baylor/possible split , I think we lose to Tech once , I think Good chance WV gets us in Morgantown - -Maybe - -Maybe Texas split - that would be six
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@Texas-Hawk-10 well to play devils advocate, 2013 had a future POY PG on the bench and a perennial NBA all star at the 5. It’s possible that roster management may have contributed to 10 losses there, just as it may have with the commitment to Grimes and hi lo with Udoka and Lawson in 2018 and just as it could this year. It’s possible with question marks around the roster this year the losses could mount.
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10 minutes left it was a 1 pt game. 5 minutes later KU is down 13. Issues within that period should be a big focus for film room
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@BeddieKU23 they definitely should start there. And look at the first 4 min of 2nd half when we erased their lead for a positive sample.
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@approxinfinity said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
@Texas-Hawk-10 well to play devils advocate, 2013 had a future POY PG on the bench and a perennial NBA all star at the 5. It’s possible that roster management may have contributed to 10 losses there, just as it may have with the commitment to Grimes and hi lo with Udoka and Lawson in 2018 and just as it could this year. It’s possible with question marks around the roster this year the losses could mount.
Mason was a true freshman and Embiid was playing injured a good chunk of that season. That team was also insanely young that season with I think only 1 player that wasn’t in their first or second season at KU.
The 2018-19 team was title contender until Doke broke his wrist. KU was undefeated and top ranked prior to Doke’s injury.
Injuries played the biggest role in 2018-19’s season. Like I said earlier, only way this team loses 10 games is if Garrett or McCormack get injured.
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KU is going to be in some score fests this year. Kinda like a worse 2017-18. Dave isn’t going to magically improve his defense but he will undoubtedly have better offensive showings. A key will be surviving his below average games and getting wins in his average games.
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Family obligations kept me outside around a campfire with no one allowed in my own home on Thanksgiving! But, I did record and watch several hours ago. Interesting as I was watching (with no foreknowledge of how the game went) is that the things I was seeing was the same as you all.
Bad calls. Not enough to overcome a deficit like that, but impacted the game. Ones I remember that you all noted: Mitch block, Marcus and one turned into a charge (HORRIBLE), Marcus masterful pickpocket steal (HoRiBlE) Nearly all the out of bounds calls that appeared close were not favorable to us.
Bad defense. Maybe they were told to practice social distancing. Maybe they thought they already were in the NBA. Maybe they thought this was the mid major Gonzaga instead of the darn good Gonzaga, but we defended like no Bill Self has ever defended, because really, we didn’t defend.
Our offense was decent, but it’s just hard to keep up with a team sometimes. Make a 3, maybe get a stop, come back and score, and we’re down 2 or 3 , and then bam Zags layup line forms again and we can’t respond.
There’s a hugely different look to the team compared to the last 3 or 4 years which always had returning go to guys. That will take a little adjustments. Hopefully Big Dave can develop into a consistent inside scorer and rebounder. Without Doke he looked a bit lost today.
Tomorrow’s a good day to tweet things for the looming Kentucky battle.
1PM game tomorrow folks don’t miss it while out bargain hunting.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree we need a better version of McCormack and we definitely need Marcus.
Dave looked unhappy out there. I hope he can find a way to get locked in. Maybe with his complete vacation of the lane today they’ll be able to see on tape some things that can easily be fixed.
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I feel like people are over reacting. Gonzaga is a legit team and it was the first game. We replaced our two biggest scorers and our best player is playing a new position…
Center will be the weakest position all year. McCormick will be the guy, unless he just falls flat. He isn’t great but Gonzaga has some of the best big men in the country and I do think he will play a little better. Lightfoot will have a major game or two but he is still lightfoot and is outmatched too much.
Wilson, TGF, Tristian will battle it out for the starting 4 spot. I think it will be 7-10 games before one clearly wins it. Wilson played the best today but I think it will fluctuate for a bit until there is a clear winner.
Garret and Ochi are lock starters and should be the stars of the team.
Thompson and braun will battle it out for the Starting shooting guard spot. The other will be the main guard off the bench. Braun had a disappointing game but he will bounce back. Thompson looked good and I think he will end up being the starter…
Small chance Self could go Houston rockets and play 5 guards but I doubt it.
We had the best team last year. It’s normal to have a slight rebuild year. Plus, fbi thing has kept us from landing top ten players. We will still be a top 10 team by years end
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The best offensive unit will be the worst defensive unit on this team. Going to be fun watching coach Self deal with that.
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Interestingly the national narrative seems to be that it was a great game and that both teams are good. When you remove people with KU bias in either direction.
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Gonzaga pounding Auburn.
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@BShark said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
Interestingly the national narrative seems to be that it was a great game and that both teams are good. When you remove people with KU bias in either direction.
Actually ya know I found myself where I really couldn’t get overly upset I mean ya , I was PO for a minute but like if this would of been last years team and this happened then I would be hot 1st game or not. - I mean yes sir we made a lot well not overly but plenty of mistakes but I think these are things that can be fixed.
I like how they fought back , I mean this thing could of REALLY snow balled o us we got down 14 in the 1st half -but they didn’t quit,
I think well at least I think our biggest concern is going to be the 5 spot. I like Dave but it was brought up by media/commentators yesterday after he got that 1st foul early - -it just screwed him up, he played alt of Olay defense , Self gonna have to work on that.
However We are not going to see to many others that have the front line Gonzaga has , I think as the Season goes along People going to see that improvement entire team wise - - lots of things to be settled. Who is going to be that 5th Starter , I think you will see better games from Christian. - -Got me to thinking a little bit if it wasn’t for frame wise/bulk that maybe we might be a little better to Start Mitch at the 5 I think he stretches the floor a little more, - -I think he is a better shot blocker - -He is a Scrapper , not afraid to get on the floor get Dirty , I dunno just a thought.
Call me Whacky - - Nuttier then a fruit cake , - - crazy - insane BUT I wouldn’t mind hooking up with these guys again on down the road this Season - -roll the ball out. - Actually is was a pretty good game yesterday, for sure shows us what we need to improve. - We still put up 90 ourselves - -One other thing then I’ll sssssh but I hope people don’t get a false sense and think Marcus gonna hang 22 points game in and game out. I see more realistically 14-15 a game. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BShark said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
Gonzaga pounding Auburn.
They playing now ? - - what channel is that on ?
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@jayballer67 Fox
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Read where there were 2 individuals from Gonzaga that had to quarintine after the KU game yesterday. - -The 4 teams decided that they would be able to play today anyways. - -I guess at least one of the two was a non athlete that was with the Traveling party.
Hope this still doesn’t cause issues later. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Timme has 26/10 at the under 8. Maybe it’s not just us
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@FarmerJayhawk said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
Timme has 26/10 at the under 8. Maybe it’s not just us
At this point is there ANY DOUBT who the # 1 team is right now ? - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@FarmerJayhawk said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
Timme has 26/10 at the under 8. Maybe it’s not just us
Timme and Kispert are going to wreck everyone.
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Hope they didn’t infect us! Stupid Few might as well trash the mask.
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We got schooled… They were clearly far ahead of us in preparation for the season ahead. They did everything they wanted to do on offense… pick and rolls, backdoors, dribble drives, feeding the post, fastbreak finishes. Total domination. It looked like we were all freshmen playing seniors.
The good news is we put up a lot of points and showed we could match them at times. Take away our stupid turnovers, tighten up our defense (a ton) and suddenly we stand toe to toe and can win.
It was frustrating watching Timme doing the exact same move in the paint every time and Big Mac never catching on to his pivot move. Mac definitely needs to learn a ton on how to defend the low post. He let Timme have any space he wanted and would play him out of position. Then Timme would move with the ball and Mac wasn’t moving his feet well. This is concerning.
All our newbies did about what I expected them to do… show some bright moments then goof in places, especially on defense.
Our defense was horrible… but realize it’s the first game and we played a very well-coached team that has one of the top offenses in America. I just didn’t expect them to make it look so easy.
Overall, I see a lot of potential. We have many scoring options. My main concern is Mac’s defense. We need solid low post defense and also Mac can’t be such a liability away from the basket. He’s got to learn to play smarter, move his feet more… and then we need other players helping him in several ways… from sagging in or putting heavier pressure on the passers. I think all of our newbies were “caught in space” on defense… being not close to defending someone while the Zags quickly pushed the ball around easily.
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Maybe yesterday isn’t as bad as it 1st looked - - I mean we had lapses defensively at times but that can be fixed with games played - well then Dave ha got to be better
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Gonzaga is really good and the game was tied in the 2nd half despite KU’s mistakes. That’s fairly promising.
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I appreciate the point that it wasn’t all Dave’s fault that their whole team had whatever they wanted in the paint @drgnslayr. He is the one most capable of doing something about it, but everyone was getting beaten. Dave suffered from the exact opposite problem of Baby Udoka who got caught hanging out in the paint against 5 out teams.
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Gonzaga dominated the paint again today.
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@BShark And some pretty tough end-of-shot-clock 3-pointers by Gonzaga. We have a lot of room for improvement and all things considered didn’t look too bad against a world-beating Gonzaga team. I’m fairly optimistic.
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I was hoping to see Big Mac a little further moved along… just like how Doke made noticeable gains every year. David has continued to improve his body and I’m sure that means he’s improved his athleticism. The part lacking now is mental. Just looks like he needs some schooling on all areas of his defense. He was badly beaten all game. Granted… he probably won’t be tested more than this all year…
I think this Zag game will help us immensely. Self now has a tool to take into practice and show his troops exactly where they need work. Few did us a favor by beating us all over the floor at ease. I hope Self thanked him!
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I read today that a Gonzaga player and a staff member had tested positive on Friday but they still played the game with Auburn. Both school officials and medical staff gave the green light. In my opinion the game should have been called off. I hope that KU does not get impacted.
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The lack of an normal offseason may have impacted Dave the most for what he needed to work on defensively. The concerns about his defense have always been there and now its under the microscope. I know it was impossible to think he could reproduce the defense Doke provided last season but I’m sure we all thought it was possible the drop off wouldn’t be this dramatic. The staff has work to do with him and film should point out what went wrong. Its interesting to see a guy who gives effort like he does still struggle rebounding and providing help defense
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The drop off last season when we subbed him in wasn’t even this dramatic. He can and will be better.
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I think I was a little harsh on Dave. His performance against Gonzaga was bad. There’s no denying that, but @BShark 's post reminded me about how COVID has affected my own sons soccer team. Notably an aversion to play the same tough physical defense that they hung their hat on in seasons prior. With this being the first time Dave was banging with other big bodies he really does deserve a pass for not being as physical in the paint. Weird times. Better times ahead.
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@BShark you could match him up better last year with subs though too.
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Good point. He will need to step up against Kentucky because Sarr and Jackson are going to be a problem to guard. KU will not win that game if Dave plays as poorly as he did this week.
Honestly I don’t see how KU can be expected to win any game against ranked quality opponents if Dave is an non factor in the post. I wish he’d worry about rebounding, defensive awareness and not turning the ball over then shooting jumpers and looking for his offense. I know Self thinks as we play more teams that play a traditional big it will be easier for him, too me that’s coach speak for he knows damn well Dave is limited and hoping that specific matchups increase his level of play. Very concerned
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Self once again said that Dave will be this team’s highest scorer. How do folks feel about it. He has shown some good moves and his jumper is smooth.
Self also said that the two teams we faced this week were not good match ups for Dave especially St Joe.
Can Dave improve his D, I am still optimistic.
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@AsadZ said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
Self once again said that Dave will be this team’s highest scorer. How do folks feel about it. He has shown some good moves and his jumper is smooth.
Self also said that the two teams we faced this week were not good match ups for Dave especially St Joe.
Can Dave improve his D, I am still optimistic.
If Gonzaga and St. Joe’s weren’t good match-ups, who would be? A team with a slow, non-scoring threat big? The Zags had one skilled big, and he ate Dave’s breakfast, lunch and dinner. St. Joe played small and he couldn’t cover the perimeter and was blown by on drives. And, against a small team, he still just made 33% of his shot attempts.
I don’t mean to dump on him - he works hard and puts in the effort. He’s a pretty good FT shooter. He has a decent jumper (but I would prefer almost anyone else shooting 3s than him taking 18 footers). But he is just an average rebounder, doesn’t provide much rim protection (zero blocks in 31 minutes), and is a TO machine.
Hopefully, he just “sped up” and will settle down. And, there likely will be a few teams where he will match up reasonably well. But, be our leading scorer??? The idea that HCBS is still thinking that the offense will go through him frightens me…
I would be fine if we run no more than a handful of plays for him a game, and he scores 8± a game off a jumper, couple of offensive rebound putbacks, and a couple of FTs…
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Zags have 3 good bigs. I count Kispert as a big though.
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@DCHawker at this point announcing that Dave will be our high scorer seems more like a political move than an actual prediction
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DCHawk,
Zag is #1 rated in the country with really skilled Bigs and St Joe played a small lineup, all guards.
I do not believe that KU will see a team with such quality Bigs for the rest of the season.
Time will tell, however, I am still optimistic that Dave would be a much better player, double-double quality.
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Agreed with your entire post.
Dave has to bounce back Tuesday, no questions asked. Kentucky has several bigs that can give him a hard time. Self got extremely lucky Wilson could switch over to the 5 given St Joes limited height and inability to get to the rim. I’m not confident we can expect that every night from Jalen.
Self is going to have to find a way to limit shots at the rim from opposing teams. Gethro as raw as he is might be might deserve a chance at some point if the struggles continue.
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@BeddieKU23 I’ll take eight minutes and five hard fouls.
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@AsadZ I am not. Think that Dave is going to become very sour this year with his minutes becoming fewer and fewer.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Gonzaga Game Thread:
Its interesting to see a guy who gives effort like he does still struggle rebounding and providing help defense
I think his issues are 75% footwork problems, 25% mental education on positioning and other things. The guy works hard and has a great attitude. I really hope he comes along during the year. We still need a post presence, or at least the option for it.
This is something he’ll need to do if he has any ambition at the next level. He is surely motivated after watching the transformation of Doke to the point where Doke went in the first round! Early in Doke’s KU career I never would have guessed he could make it into the first round, but after this past year and his vast improvements on foot speed and work, it became apparent he could do it.
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Dave also just has awful timing.
You can see guys like Jeff Withey who are as unathletic as they come, but have just impeccable timing, can be successful. Same for Cole Adlrich. And even to some degree, Mitch for being like 6’6-6’7 has amazing timing which helps him blocking shots.
Some guys have a knack for being in the right place at the right time. Jumping up at the right time. Seeing the way the ball bounces off the rim. Blocking shots at the peak. Etc.
Dave, however, does not possess a single one of those qualities. He constantly looks like he is either a full second behind or a full second ahead and is just never able to time anything just right.
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@Kcmatt7 you nailed it.
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I get a sense that in an effort to do too much he is sped up. I believe that with proper coaching this issue can be corrected.
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some tid bits I picked up hadn’t realized from the 1st weekend : They were talking about all the bunnies we had missed against Gonzaga. - - - -10 layups against Gonzaga - - TEN - - that’s 20 points guys just flat missed. - - -Garrett missing his 1st three layup attempts against St Joes. - -hit half those layups against Gonzaga and we got a closer game - - can’t miss the bunnies
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I like to think that timing is a skill that can be coached. Let’s hope to see improvements this year!
