Macro vs. Micro, Myopia, and Feelings
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I’m not against Jamari, I have tremendous respect for the player he is and the man he has become. He has value on this team and I thought his play against San Diego St was one of his best games.
I guess what I didn’t understand was that when the game got close Self choose to abandon the rotation of post minutes and stuck with 1 guy. We won the game so I have no problem in playing to win. But the “bigger picture” gives us a lot to talk about.
The post rotation he played in the 1st half built a 13 point lead. But they ride the bench 2nd half? That’s my only gripe. As @HighEliteMajor has pointed out time and time again, if the goal is to win the National Championship and the SDSU game was a pawn on the chess board, then Diallo and Bragg should have at least been given the opportunity to play in the pressure moments.
I think they both played well enough to have earned minutes in the 2nd half. If they were ineffective then sit them, but that wasn’t the case at all.
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Don’t you see that Self is making Bragg and Diallo earn more minutes by lifting their games?
Typically, players develop most for the season over the Christmas holidays. They are out of classes and focus 100% on basketball. The important step right now is to PUSH our freshmen into higher plateaus of development right now. And though game minutes are an important step in that process… the players must first learn to play competitive D1 basketball.
By playing them too many minutes too soon, they may lose confidence because they simply don’t know enough to play well enough.
Both Bragg and Diallo are still very rough. They both have made big mistakes on defensive switches and help.
We need to put our best chance of winning right now on the court. Our experienced guys give us our best chance TODAY.
Bill Self’s secret sauce for 11 straight titles is to come out of the blocks fast in B12 play. Immediately create a gap with the other teams and that puts the pressure on them.
Self is not going to throw away the B12 race just to hope it pays off in March because our freshmen may be a tad bit further along.
Our biggest assets as a team are with our veteran players. They’ve been there before. And now the expectations are on them to execute winning games. That is our team identity. Experienced, quality players.
Freshmen potential may end up helpful, but the focus has to be on our biggest asset… experienced, quality players. I’m not specifically identifying Jamari or Landen as quality bigs. But they are experienced and there is a current higher ceiling for playing good team ball by using our experienced players.
Look at how many variants we are running now! BG and Svi… those guys have great potential, but they aren’t meshed within our offense yet. If we just run a platoon type strategy, we may never create a team identity. Using young, talented players has to be done with care. We want them to CONTRIBUTE to our current identity, not CREATE CHAOS by stripping away our identity.
I think Self is having one of his best coaching years since coming to Kansas.
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Great post. I couldn’t find much to rebuttal with…
I do think Self is doing a great job. He’s adapted the offense to play with this teams strengths.
And most importantly these guys are making shots.
I just have that proverbial dream that Bragg & Diallo will begin to seperate themselves from the pack and Self will trust them in pressure situations to get the job done.
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We really won’t know how these guys react in March until we get there. Some guys just disappear, especially when they are young.
We don’t want to put too many eggs in an unknown basket. Why should we? We have a very solid core of talented, experienced players that surely must be carrying a little chip after losing to WSU last year.
I don’t know… I do know that I am heavily influenced STILL by the Royals and how they used last year’s runner up year to fuel this year. I hope we have guys that will react in a similar fashion. Guys like Perry, Wayne and Frank… they should be carrying a chip and I think to some degree they are.
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And… might we be relieving some of the potential stress on Cheick and Carlton if we frame them up as just being SUPPLEMENTS to this team instead of counted on to produce?
That is a touchy subject… because some guys need to feel the heavy pressure and be counted on to really produce. This is an area where Self needs to play psychologist and know what to apply to these young guys’ brains.
We all know that Cheick and Carlton need some minutes. But we can’t say we know better than Self on this one. We don’t sit in on practices and know the entire story here.
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Great point, that could possibly be best that they are just pieces of the pie.
Because I think Frank, Devonte, Wayne & Perry are all content in leading this team. Everyone else has a role and has fit into it. I don’t think KU can win it all without both being involved in the outcome, they are extremely important to this teams ceiling.
I think both are content on letting the experienced guys do the heavy work, they don’t have the pressure that others on the team have. It’s a great problem to have, 2 uber talented bigs fighting for PT.
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I like the idea of having our veteran players POSSESS this team, instead of our freshmen talented players.
For example, had we thrown Cheick into the starting lineup and kept him there, how soon would the media proclaim this as “Cheick’s team” instead of Perry, Wayne and Frank’s team?
Think about it… this is the first year for these three guys to take real ownership. Last year, the talk was Kelly and Cliff. We see where that got us.
Perry, Wayne and Frank have EARNED their OWNERSHIP of this team.
I am excited to see where this leads us… in conference play and in March. I don’t think this is basically the same team we had last year. The dynamics have changed… for the better. Add in the improvements Self has made in his own coaching philosophy, and we really have completely different potential.
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I remember Russel Robinson talking just prior to midnight madness in 07. He said, not specifically, that he was ready to get back on the court and win an NC for us, the fans and for KU. That was real talk. He meant that stuff.
Oh Perry, he is a good player but he just doesnt have the swagger that past KU players have had. He is too soft spoken. He doesnt have that killer instinct. This year, our boys with the best Killer Instinct are Frank and Selden. Ice in their veins.
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@Lulufulu I really think it’s Selden. He is very vocal, and when you add kick-a** game performances, it adds to your leadership. Hard to be a leader who doesn’t produce. And hard be a leader and rarely talk or show emotion (Ellis).
@VailHawk Exactly … couldn’t have said it better. I would add that even if the pair were statistically inferior, I’d still advocate for much more time in games where we could win without playing “experience” – like much of our non-con. Heck, I’d start Diallo tomorrow night and let him play 20 minutes or until he fouls out. I’d let Bragg play 20 as well. Just commit to it, and do it. Why not? What’s the risk?
@BeddieKU23 You said, “if the goal is to win the National Championship and the SDSU game was a pawn on the chess board, then Diallo and Bragg should have at least been given the opportunity to play in the pressure moments.” – Great analogy. Each game is a pawn. You may win the battle (SDSU), but does that help you win the war (NC)? I really thought some might latch on more to the Bill Self loves Jamari line of thought – the love for one’s players is a powerful thing. And I very much think that Self has a great attachment to Traylor, and his path to Kansas. The kid is an amazing story. How could you not love the kid?
@jaybate-1.0 Awesome post.
@drgnslayr - Rarely do we disagree in a post this much – but you make an excellent argument.
Your response to @BeddieKU23 is the exemption to the rule. Do you really think that Traylor gives a better chance to win now, than say Bragg? And you mentioned the Big 12 race. I know some people really care about this. If we were say, the Royals, I agree – the division championship was a big deal. But we have 11 in row. Doesn’t that pale in comparison to the impact on Self’s legacy vs. another NC? If you said, “Bill Self 11 conference titles and two nationals championships”, does anyone care with the “11” is a “12”, a “10”, or something near that?
You said,“Self is not going to throw away the B12 race just to hope it pays off in March because our freshmen may be a tad bit further along.” I would disagree with the “tad” thing and the premise that we’d throw away the race – and I sure hope you’re wrong. When you have a bunch of league titles, the one thing that takes you to the next level is the NCs. I guess I’m disagreeing and agreeing with another one of your points – you said “experience, quality players.” You then exempted “Jamari or Landen as quality bigs”, just calling them experienced. You’re right, they are really just experience. Not quality. I guess I do disagree with the premise of the “experience” thing. You mentioned “team ball” as if Diallo and/or Bragg wouldn’t bring that. Bragg has been amazing so far.
Do you really think that extended “experience”, in-game, is not the best path to Diallo and Bragg reaching peak efficiency by March?
Your thoughts here really provide a different perspective on what might be this team’s strength. But how about “pace”?
Remember, though, the veterans can possess this team, and will possess it – Diallo is not Wiggins. There are no SI covers. This is a team led by Ellis, Mason, and Selden. I agree with @BeddieKU23 – they are our core. Diallo and Bragg will always be supplements this season. I think their style of play (high pace) accentuates and makes it more of a weapon.
And regarding your first post above, I would also argue that Oubre’s handling did not pay off – at all. In four of our five postseason games, he scored less than double figures. He was a non-factor vs. ISU in KC, and vs. WSU when we sure could have used a 20 point game. What do you think about that?
I would toss in that I did think Bragg should and would be an immediate contributor. He is our most skilled big right now (more so than Ellis). Ellis, however, is an elite level talent with experience. Ellis is thus better right now. No doubt. But the more experience Bragg gets, that gap will close quickly – it’s that experience he needs to push to the next level. Bragg will feed on the experience like a bacteria consuming flesh, and we’ll have a monster. Another guy who can be a go-to guy.
Your responses are terrific discussion – always gets me thinking.
@dylans When I hear “Selby size hole”, that is very concerning. And it worries me, meaning my recollection of Selby and his fight to get on the court; and Self’s preference for Reed and Brady. I was more in EJ’s camp. But I guess i feel better in that Diallo’s role is perhaps easier to assimilate to on this team. Our terrific perimeter makes that the focus.
@wrwlumpy You said that Diallo will play when he helps more than he hurts – hard for me to let that slip by. I would just want that standard to apply to all players. And if it did, you know, some wouldn’t play. Some of the players some of us love. That’s the net production I talk about. It is odd that in a post that presumably defends Traylor, you would move to such a discussion point because that is and always has been his weakness – the lack of net production.
I do like your backhanded comment to affect your point – “opposite of that” and “Jamari lover” stuff. It just gets you off the hook for saying “Jamari hater.” It’s softer. It does make some feel better to believe that the large contingent of folks that disagrees with Traylor’s PT “hate” him. Whatever. But as I’ve said, it’s all relative to the talent and the level of competition. If we had Justin Wesley, Christian Moody, and Landen Lucas as our other bigs paired with Ellis and Traylor, it’s a different discussion. It’s that I dislike his game in comparison to our other alternatives.
And you fall in the trap that others do as well, referring to Diallo being out of position. I cited many times when Traylor was out of position last season, and when he completely messed up – the same stuff folks tried to use to disparage Cliff. That goes to the net – for example, if Diallo is out of position and allows for an easy layup. But then blocks or changes a shot that would otherwise go in, then gets a rebound and put back; in instances where the player would score over JT and where JT would not get the rebound, who’s better?
That’s “play the better player” stuff.
Maybe your high school story makes you sentimental – but I think you could analogize JT as the football players. Diallo and Bragg are better than Traylor right now. Just like you were better than your bigger and stronger competition – you were just better. More skilled. A basketball player. JT is certainly a basketball player. Just less skilled, that’s all.
You didn’t mention Bragg – do you have the same opinion of Bragg vs. JT as Diallo vs. JT?
How about this? When I refer to “Jamari Lovers”, assume that it is done with the utmost affection. Nothin’ wrong with lovin’.
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@drgnslayr Like your posts (in general and here in particular) and agree in large part. I think if there had been a little more substitution in the 2nd half of the other Bigs, then we wouldn’t be having the discussion. Put them in and see…pull them if it appears the wheels then come off.
Realize the counter to that argument may be that a lack of continuity may screw up the results. But that is part of the point. Test and see in the non-conference portion of the schedule.
Thanks for posting!
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@drgnslayr I also like the idea of our veteran players “possessing” the team, but I would simply observe that freshmen “possessed” last year’s national championship team. On the other hand, Wisconsin was clearly a veteran led team and made it to the NC game. And, the recent UConn championship teams were driven by veterans. There isn’t just one path - superior talent typically prevails, but not always. It is one persons view that we give ourselves the best chance to take it all if we can effectively meld strong veteran capabiility (Selden and Mason) with superior athletic talent (Bragg and Diallo) - and Devonte and Svi providing a bit of both.
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@wrwlumpy That’s a very good question to ask & I’m surprised no one has answered it yet. And just so you know, I left Churches because, frankly, Popeyes serves a much tastier chicken!
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@HighEliteMajor Good points as always. I do agree with a lot of what Dragon was saying. I don’t think we can really say that Oubre’s bad games in the tourney were because he was brought along slowly. He had plenty of PT in the conference games. As long as Bragg and Diallo get to where they are playing significant minutes, I’m not sure that Self’s methods will hold them back. But…it is hard to tell. I do agree that for tonight’s game…go ahead and throw them in the fire…why not? But we know that letting young guys play through their mistakes is not Self’s style…except of course with Wiggins.
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@Hawk8086 Thanks … the Oubre thing is really just some speculation. There was the statement that he turned out fine, but I think the results might suggest otherwise. Mid-first rounder, an important scorer, and he gets 3 points vs. ISU and then 9 vs. WSU in our most important game of the year.
Another thought – Let’s take three games: Oregon St., Harvard, and SDSU. Let’s assume Self plays Diallo and Bragg 20 minutes in each of those games.
What is the absolute worst that happens? Lose two of them?
And if Self said after the losses that we definitely want to win the non-con games, but there are bigger fish to fry, would anyone have any quibble with that?
I don’t know. I know I don’t want to lose two of those three. Realistically, maybe we lose one. Maybe. But I personally think we still win all three.
I think we win vs. Harvard by more than 6 or whatever. I really believe we win at SDSU. And vs. Oregon St., our first half was bad anyway and it would be Diallo instead of Mick for much of the second half. Tough to tell. Hard to see losing any of them.
But tonight is a new box of chocolates.
Maybe Self really has a “master plan” beyond just win the current game. I don’t see it though.
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@HighEliteMajor People were calling for him to be fired after we lost to Sparty. Just sayin…
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@KUSTEVE People were assuming another year like last year & hitting the panic button. Last year was a disappointing year but for the most part it was enjoyable & entertaining. I am enjoying the way these guys have grown up in the last year & watching very talented freshmen learn the greatest game ever invented (except for baseball) taught by the greatest coaching staff ever assembled & no one is going to convince me otherwise!
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@curmudgeonjhwk 'cept for baseball.
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@wrwlumpy Great question. Self has been in the position of damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Self was getting bombarded when he supposedly “lost his touch” with elite level talent in recruits. Fast forward 4 years (Selby, Alexander, Wiggins, Henry) and Self needs to stop recruiting players who don’t care about the Jayhawks uniform and use KU as a pit stop for the NBA. But now, we are worried Self can’t recruit again.
This year, this site is all over Self because he focuses too much on regular season wins and the thought process “I don’t care if we lose in the regular season or Big 12 as long as we win in March” and we take out our torches for a regular season lost to MSU without knowing the end result in March yet!
Don’t even get me started on last year when people were calling for platooning because UK was doing it 10 games into the season.
We are so fickle.
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@HighEliteMajor It’s a discussion many of us have chimed in on. I guess I’m not willing to accept a loss because the cause and effect is never clear. If we lose because the younger guys play more, we’re not sure how much more beneficial that will be vs. what Self is doing. As KUSteve said, people act as if the sky is falling if we lose. Self is going to make sure we win first and foremost. That means being conservative, sometimes, in how much PT the young guys get. It will be interesting to see what Izzo does next year with the young talent he has coming in. He tends to take a similar approach with bringing young guys along slowly (OK, maybe not quite as slowly as Self) He’s losing guys, so he’ll have no choice, to some extent, but to play freshmen a lot.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I agree with you 98% of the time but on this subject believe me when I say that “no one is going to convince me otherwise!” I argued this point with a crew member from 1996-1999 in Pensacola…it’s one reason I totally enjoyed that crew. He was from Louisville & tried to convince me that KU basketball was irrelevant compared to Louisville basketball. When I was discharged in 1969, I had convinced him that Louisville BB was on the same level that WSU BB was on & that KU BB is the standard to live up to. Back then Louisville BB fans were looking back, not forward.
Accept the fact that a 3 inch round ball makes contact with a 3 inch piece of round hardwood & flies somewhere in the the vicinity of 20 feet to 400 ft at somewhere in the neighborhood of 85 t0 200 mph…amazing!
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@Bwag said:
JT played strong and was a net benefit during the game, everyone agrees.
Not me, but I think I’m alone in that thinking. Theres no way to prove it either way but it was just what I saw while watching the game.
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@JhawkAlum amen! 2 years ago, SDSU beat our rears, Embiid couldn’t handle the dble team, play him and Self’s out coached, don’t play him and we don’t give Embiid enough mins to “play thru it”. Sooooo
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“Do you really think that Traylor gives a better chance to win now, than say Bragg?”
Yes. Most definitely. Traylor knows the system and has been hustling. He was a definite difference-maker at SDSU. I don’t think Bragg is ready to be a “difference-maker.” I do think he is showing he can make a contribution. The team was interviewed and they seem to still think Traylor is the better choice, too.
If the young guys want more PT then they simply have to show a compelling positive right NOW that they are the best players and need to be on the floor. Self would be happy to start and give major minutes to Cheick and Carlton. They’ll have to earn those minutes.
I think you need to realize how important “team dynamics” are. Just throwing our veteran players to the side because young bucks have potential is very disrespectful to the players that have been sacrificing for the team for years. That could easily cause waves… and how could it not? So right now, because Self has the attitude to play the guys that will help win games RIGHT NOW, the fight for minutes is fair and very very competitive. All our post players are improving from the big time competition they have in practice. But just proclaim our freshmen ahead of everyone but Perry (without earning it) and I think you are asking for all kinds of trouble, including the veteran players playing soft, including practices. How can they stay motivated if they just give up their minutes to “potential?”
From what I have seen out of our freshmen, I like how Self has been using them. I find it highly likely that both Carlton and Cheick will soon start earning more minutes. They both have better upside than our other bigs fighting for those minutes. But right now, Cheick can’t stay on the floor anyways because he can’t guard without fouling. Carlton is scrappy, but his defense is rough.
The door is wide open for all our bigs. Play well, earn minutes. This is the way it should be. There is a lot of season left for the young guys to earn plenty of PT. Giving it to them now (without them earning it) lets them know they can coast. It also deflates the ambitions of our experienced post guys. So then we have Perry on his own and NONE of our other post players properly motivated to play well.
I like how Self blends in most of our bigs in the first half, and then plays what he thinks is the best chance to win in the second half. That not only gives us the best chance to win this single game, it also sends a message to these guys that Self rewards PRODUCTION not just POTENTIAL.
I know you and I come from a different generation. I think you and I are similar. I didn’t need to be pushed to hustle. I would dive for balls even if I was just playing lunch ball at the YMCA. I had a single button: ON/OFF. These kids today are different. Guys with ON/OFF buttons are extremely rare. It has taken me a while to understand this. It all impacts the game and coaching. If a player didn’t hustle back in my day there was a good chance the coach would just kick him hard in his rear side.
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" I also like the idea of our veteran players “possessing” the team, but I would simply observe that freshmen “possessed” last year’s national championship team"
We aren’t Duke. We don’t run a puppy mill.
We do have some outstanding freshmen… but imagine our new identity is our freshmen. Do you think we stand even a tiny chance of winning our conference and a NC starting and running Vick, Bragg and Diallo?
Duke had a team full of McDs AAs. This was their identity because they didn’t count on veteran players for anything and they had Nike dump trucks full of top players.
Yes, it is possible to win with freshmen and/or veteran players.
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@drgnslayr Grayson Allen barely played at all last season and did he make a huge difference in the end!
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Yes he did. Does Grayson’s results last year determine who Self plays?
Do you get what I am explaining about “team chemistry” and keeping guys motivated?
We have had issues with hustle in other years. I remember when we had Wigs and every one else just stood there like one of the fans in the crowd when he got the ball. No one was motivated on that team.
If freshmen are given FREE MINUTES (without outplaying upperclassmen) based on possible future potential on a team full of veteran players that have contributed over their time in uniform I 100% guarantee you can throw this year away.
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It is critical that guys get time.
We talk about the 2008 team all the time here, because that is the most successful KU team. But why were they successful?
Well, yes, we had experience, but every single guy with experience was also very talented. Kaun, Jackson, Rush and Chalmers were all drafted that year. Arthur was also drafted. That’s five NBA picks on the team.
If you can find five guys on this squad that could get drafted by the NBA next summer, I applaud you. This team doesn’t have that kind of talent, particularly among its seniors. But remember something else about that 2008 squad. When games were on the line, KU put the following five on the floor - 2008 52nd pick Darnell Jackson, 2008 27th pick Darrell Arthur, 2008 13th pick Brandon Rush, 2008 34th pick Mario Chalmers and Sherron Collins. That’s a ton of talent. The only way this team matches that is if they put Diallo, Bragg, Selden, Svi (or Greene) and Mason on the floor together. Otherwise, there is simply no comparison.
It’s not just that we had juniors and seniors in 2008. It’s that those juniors and seniors were potential NBA players.
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@justanotherfan Not to forget, the 2008 team was the 2007 team - one year later.
Bring back all the non-seniors next year and we’ll have something like the 2008 team.
On the other hand, our 2008 opponents had experienced talent too. Those teams are rarer this year.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Great example! I didn’t think of that one but it’s perfect!
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I’m very hopeful that Cheick and Carlton, both, make major contributions to our team this season, especially helping us with another B12 crown as well as help us advance in March.
I think that scenario is best achieved by making them earn their minutes… the same path our veteran players took.
Both of these guys should find more minutes at some point.
I agree with Tom’s comment:
“Playing time doesn’t determine when the light comes on. The light coming on determines playing time.”
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@drgnslayr “Playing time doesn’t determine when the light comes on. The light coming on determines playing time.”
Great quote for all coaches.
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@wrwlumpy yes, that is why Diallo is not getting more pt.
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Tom’s comment comes from someone who hasn’t coached at all.
Players reach their peak, and players learn, from being in game action. Not solely, of course, but in great measure. Actually, saying that playing time doesn’t determine when the light comes on is simply absurd.
Keegan is saying that playing time has nothing to do with development (another way to say the light coming one). Absolutely absurd.
Now, saying that the light coming on determines playing time with coach Self – that is unfortunately true.
And, of course, the determination as to whether the light has come on is a subjective tolerance, of which coach Self has always had a low tolerance.
@drgnslayr – Really, who has said, ever, giving them “free minutes?” Presumably they work hard in practice and do the prerequisites to get on the floor, because they actually do get on the floor. No one has said that. It’s a straw man.
You play kids for a purpose. If Lucas gives us the best chance at a national championship, and that is the determination, then that’s a different story. But Self has never said that. He simply talks about winning now.
It’s quite simple. As simple as it has always been. You give minutes with the purpose of being the best team possible in March, to win a national championship.
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@HighEliteMajor Could it be that Diallo isn’t “getting it” in practice and therefore showing poorly in games, such as committing silly fouls, out of defensive position, etc.?
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Development happens during practice. If a player can’t grasp what they’re supposed to do during practice, why would they be expected to know what to do during games. Practice is where players start to understand concepts and once they start showing that understanding in practice, then they start applying it in games. There’s not some magic wand that instantly makes a player know what to do.
Kelly Oubre gets brought up quite a bit in regards to this. It took him until Christmas time for the light to come on and for him to start showing that he understood what was expected of him in the system and to be able to execute within the system.
Playing a player who does not know what he’s doing on either end of the floor doesn’t change just because he gets thrown to the wolves. That can actually be quite detrimental to the development of a player because it can destroy their confidence.
Right now, Cheick Diallo us clueless on the court. He just doesn’t kniw how to operate within Bill Self’s system on either end of the floor yet. Playing out of control and being out of position doesn’t help KU win games or help Diallo’s development. We can all see the talent Diallo has, but that talent is not very developed yet and until he starts showing in practice that he understands where he needs to be on offense, can play at a slower pace (he rushes way too much when he has the ball now), knows how to rotate on defense, and can guard his man without fouling, his minutes are going to continue to be limited. Once he shows the ability to do thise things in a low pressure situation like practice, Self will start giving him more opportunities in the high pressure situations of games. Missing out on those early practices definitely set his development back several weeks and when the season is only 14 or so weeks, losing that time was huge blow to Diallo. The upside is that it could very well be a big enough blow to keep Diallo around a second year.
