Macro vs. Micro, Myopia, and Feelings
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@drgnslayr I also like the idea of our veteran players “possessing” the team, but I would simply observe that freshmen “possessed” last year’s national championship team. On the other hand, Wisconsin was clearly a veteran led team and made it to the NC game. And, the recent UConn championship teams were driven by veterans. There isn’t just one path - superior talent typically prevails, but not always. It is one persons view that we give ourselves the best chance to take it all if we can effectively meld strong veteran capabiility (Selden and Mason) with superior athletic talent (Bragg and Diallo) - and Devonte and Svi providing a bit of both.
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@wrwlumpy That’s a very good question to ask & I’m surprised no one has answered it yet. And just so you know, I left Churches because, frankly, Popeyes serves a much tastier chicken!
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@HighEliteMajor Good points as always. I do agree with a lot of what Dragon was saying. I don’t think we can really say that Oubre’s bad games in the tourney were because he was brought along slowly. He had plenty of PT in the conference games. As long as Bragg and Diallo get to where they are playing significant minutes, I’m not sure that Self’s methods will hold them back. But…it is hard to tell. I do agree that for tonight’s game…go ahead and throw them in the fire…why not? But we know that letting young guys play through their mistakes is not Self’s style…except of course with Wiggins.
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@Hawk8086 Thanks … the Oubre thing is really just some speculation. There was the statement that he turned out fine, but I think the results might suggest otherwise. Mid-first rounder, an important scorer, and he gets 3 points vs. ISU and then 9 vs. WSU in our most important game of the year.
Another thought – Let’s take three games: Oregon St., Harvard, and SDSU. Let’s assume Self plays Diallo and Bragg 20 minutes in each of those games.
What is the absolute worst that happens? Lose two of them?
And if Self said after the losses that we definitely want to win the non-con games, but there are bigger fish to fry, would anyone have any quibble with that?
I don’t know. I know I don’t want to lose two of those three. Realistically, maybe we lose one. Maybe. But I personally think we still win all three.
I think we win vs. Harvard by more than 6 or whatever. I really believe we win at SDSU. And vs. Oregon St., our first half was bad anyway and it would be Diallo instead of Mick for much of the second half. Tough to tell. Hard to see losing any of them.
But tonight is a new box of chocolates.
Maybe Self really has a “master plan” beyond just win the current game. I don’t see it though.
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@HighEliteMajor People were calling for him to be fired after we lost to Sparty. Just sayin…
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@KUSTEVE People were assuming another year like last year & hitting the panic button. Last year was a disappointing year but for the most part it was enjoyable & entertaining. I am enjoying the way these guys have grown up in the last year & watching very talented freshmen learn the greatest game ever invented (except for baseball) taught by the greatest coaching staff ever assembled & no one is going to convince me otherwise!
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@curmudgeonjhwk 'cept for baseball.
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@wrwlumpy Great question. Self has been in the position of damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Self was getting bombarded when he supposedly “lost his touch” with elite level talent in recruits. Fast forward 4 years (Selby, Alexander, Wiggins, Henry) and Self needs to stop recruiting players who don’t care about the Jayhawks uniform and use KU as a pit stop for the NBA. But now, we are worried Self can’t recruit again.
This year, this site is all over Self because he focuses too much on regular season wins and the thought process “I don’t care if we lose in the regular season or Big 12 as long as we win in March” and we take out our torches for a regular season lost to MSU without knowing the end result in March yet!
Don’t even get me started on last year when people were calling for platooning because UK was doing it 10 games into the season.
We are so fickle.
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@HighEliteMajor It’s a discussion many of us have chimed in on. I guess I’m not willing to accept a loss because the cause and effect is never clear. If we lose because the younger guys play more, we’re not sure how much more beneficial that will be vs. what Self is doing. As KUSteve said, people act as if the sky is falling if we lose. Self is going to make sure we win first and foremost. That means being conservative, sometimes, in how much PT the young guys get. It will be interesting to see what Izzo does next year with the young talent he has coming in. He tends to take a similar approach with bringing young guys along slowly (OK, maybe not quite as slowly as Self) He’s losing guys, so he’ll have no choice, to some extent, but to play freshmen a lot.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I agree with you 98% of the time but on this subject believe me when I say that “no one is going to convince me otherwise!” I argued this point with a crew member from 1996-1999 in Pensacola…it’s one reason I totally enjoyed that crew. He was from Louisville & tried to convince me that KU basketball was irrelevant compared to Louisville basketball. When I was discharged in 1969, I had convinced him that Louisville BB was on the same level that WSU BB was on & that KU BB is the standard to live up to. Back then Louisville BB fans were looking back, not forward.
Accept the fact that a 3 inch round ball makes contact with a 3 inch piece of round hardwood & flies somewhere in the the vicinity of 20 feet to 400 ft at somewhere in the neighborhood of 85 t0 200 mph…amazing!
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@Bwag said:
JT played strong and was a net benefit during the game, everyone agrees.
Not me, but I think I’m alone in that thinking. Theres no way to prove it either way but it was just what I saw while watching the game.
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@JhawkAlum amen! 2 years ago, SDSU beat our rears, Embiid couldn’t handle the dble team, play him and Self’s out coached, don’t play him and we don’t give Embiid enough mins to “play thru it”. Sooooo
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“Do you really think that Traylor gives a better chance to win now, than say Bragg?”
Yes. Most definitely. Traylor knows the system and has been hustling. He was a definite difference-maker at SDSU. I don’t think Bragg is ready to be a “difference-maker.” I do think he is showing he can make a contribution. The team was interviewed and they seem to still think Traylor is the better choice, too.
If the young guys want more PT then they simply have to show a compelling positive right NOW that they are the best players and need to be on the floor. Self would be happy to start and give major minutes to Cheick and Carlton. They’ll have to earn those minutes.
I think you need to realize how important “team dynamics” are. Just throwing our veteran players to the side because young bucks have potential is very disrespectful to the players that have been sacrificing for the team for years. That could easily cause waves… and how could it not? So right now, because Self has the attitude to play the guys that will help win games RIGHT NOW, the fight for minutes is fair and very very competitive. All our post players are improving from the big time competition they have in practice. But just proclaim our freshmen ahead of everyone but Perry (without earning it) and I think you are asking for all kinds of trouble, including the veteran players playing soft, including practices. How can they stay motivated if they just give up their minutes to “potential?”
From what I have seen out of our freshmen, I like how Self has been using them. I find it highly likely that both Carlton and Cheick will soon start earning more minutes. They both have better upside than our other bigs fighting for those minutes. But right now, Cheick can’t stay on the floor anyways because he can’t guard without fouling. Carlton is scrappy, but his defense is rough.
The door is wide open for all our bigs. Play well, earn minutes. This is the way it should be. There is a lot of season left for the young guys to earn plenty of PT. Giving it to them now (without them earning it) lets them know they can coast. It also deflates the ambitions of our experienced post guys. So then we have Perry on his own and NONE of our other post players properly motivated to play well.
I like how Self blends in most of our bigs in the first half, and then plays what he thinks is the best chance to win in the second half. That not only gives us the best chance to win this single game, it also sends a message to these guys that Self rewards PRODUCTION not just POTENTIAL.
I know you and I come from a different generation. I think you and I are similar. I didn’t need to be pushed to hustle. I would dive for balls even if I was just playing lunch ball at the YMCA. I had a single button: ON/OFF. These kids today are different. Guys with ON/OFF buttons are extremely rare. It has taken me a while to understand this. It all impacts the game and coaching. If a player didn’t hustle back in my day there was a good chance the coach would just kick him hard in his rear side.
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" I also like the idea of our veteran players “possessing” the team, but I would simply observe that freshmen “possessed” last year’s national championship team"
We aren’t Duke. We don’t run a puppy mill.
We do have some outstanding freshmen… but imagine our new identity is our freshmen. Do you think we stand even a tiny chance of winning our conference and a NC starting and running Vick, Bragg and Diallo?
Duke had a team full of McDs AAs. This was their identity because they didn’t count on veteran players for anything and they had Nike dump trucks full of top players.
Yes, it is possible to win with freshmen and/or veteran players.
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@drgnslayr Grayson Allen barely played at all last season and did he make a huge difference in the end!
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Yes he did. Does Grayson’s results last year determine who Self plays?
Do you get what I am explaining about “team chemistry” and keeping guys motivated?
We have had issues with hustle in other years. I remember when we had Wigs and every one else just stood there like one of the fans in the crowd when he got the ball. No one was motivated on that team.
If freshmen are given FREE MINUTES (without outplaying upperclassmen) based on possible future potential on a team full of veteran players that have contributed over their time in uniform I 100% guarantee you can throw this year away.
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It is critical that guys get time.
We talk about the 2008 team all the time here, because that is the most successful KU team. But why were they successful?
Well, yes, we had experience, but every single guy with experience was also very talented. Kaun, Jackson, Rush and Chalmers were all drafted that year. Arthur was also drafted. That’s five NBA picks on the team.
If you can find five guys on this squad that could get drafted by the NBA next summer, I applaud you. This team doesn’t have that kind of talent, particularly among its seniors. But remember something else about that 2008 squad. When games were on the line, KU put the following five on the floor - 2008 52nd pick Darnell Jackson, 2008 27th pick Darrell Arthur, 2008 13th pick Brandon Rush, 2008 34th pick Mario Chalmers and Sherron Collins. That’s a ton of talent. The only way this team matches that is if they put Diallo, Bragg, Selden, Svi (or Greene) and Mason on the floor together. Otherwise, there is simply no comparison.
It’s not just that we had juniors and seniors in 2008. It’s that those juniors and seniors were potential NBA players.
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@justanotherfan Not to forget, the 2008 team was the 2007 team - one year later.
Bring back all the non-seniors next year and we’ll have something like the 2008 team.
On the other hand, our 2008 opponents had experienced talent too. Those teams are rarer this year.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Great example! I didn’t think of that one but it’s perfect!
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I’m very hopeful that Cheick and Carlton, both, make major contributions to our team this season, especially helping us with another B12 crown as well as help us advance in March.
I think that scenario is best achieved by making them earn their minutes… the same path our veteran players took.
Both of these guys should find more minutes at some point.
I agree with Tom’s comment:
“Playing time doesn’t determine when the light comes on. The light coming on determines playing time.”
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@drgnslayr “Playing time doesn’t determine when the light comes on. The light coming on determines playing time.”
Great quote for all coaches.
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@wrwlumpy yes, that is why Diallo is not getting more pt.
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Tom’s comment comes from someone who hasn’t coached at all.
Players reach their peak, and players learn, from being in game action. Not solely, of course, but in great measure. Actually, saying that playing time doesn’t determine when the light comes on is simply absurd.
Keegan is saying that playing time has nothing to do with development (another way to say the light coming one). Absolutely absurd.
Now, saying that the light coming on determines playing time with coach Self – that is unfortunately true.
And, of course, the determination as to whether the light has come on is a subjective tolerance, of which coach Self has always had a low tolerance.
@drgnslayr – Really, who has said, ever, giving them “free minutes?” Presumably they work hard in practice and do the prerequisites to get on the floor, because they actually do get on the floor. No one has said that. It’s a straw man.
You play kids for a purpose. If Lucas gives us the best chance at a national championship, and that is the determination, then that’s a different story. But Self has never said that. He simply talks about winning now.
It’s quite simple. As simple as it has always been. You give minutes with the purpose of being the best team possible in March, to win a national championship.
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@HighEliteMajor Could it be that Diallo isn’t “getting it” in practice and therefore showing poorly in games, such as committing silly fouls, out of defensive position, etc.?
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Development happens during practice. If a player can’t grasp what they’re supposed to do during practice, why would they be expected to know what to do during games. Practice is where players start to understand concepts and once they start showing that understanding in practice, then they start applying it in games. There’s not some magic wand that instantly makes a player know what to do.
Kelly Oubre gets brought up quite a bit in regards to this. It took him until Christmas time for the light to come on and for him to start showing that he understood what was expected of him in the system and to be able to execute within the system.
Playing a player who does not know what he’s doing on either end of the floor doesn’t change just because he gets thrown to the wolves. That can actually be quite detrimental to the development of a player because it can destroy their confidence.
Right now, Cheick Diallo us clueless on the court. He just doesn’t kniw how to operate within Bill Self’s system on either end of the floor yet. Playing out of control and being out of position doesn’t help KU win games or help Diallo’s development. We can all see the talent Diallo has, but that talent is not very developed yet and until he starts showing in practice that he understands where he needs to be on offense, can play at a slower pace (he rushes way too much when he has the ball now), knows how to rotate on defense, and can guard his man without fouling, his minutes are going to continue to be limited. Once he shows the ability to do thise things in a low pressure situation like practice, Self will start giving him more opportunities in the high pressure situations of games. Missing out on those early practices definitely set his development back several weeks and when the season is only 14 or so weeks, losing that time was huge blow to Diallo. The upside is that it could very well be a big enough blow to keep Diallo around a second year.
