The 5 spot
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@drgnslayr said in The 5 spot:
It was such a “newbie” game. Wow! All those first half nerves were hilarious. I’m almost positive a junior high school team would have taken an early lead on us.
The competition at the 5 will continue. None really grabbed me enough to give a thumbs up. I did notice how they were all trying to keep up with the speed of the offense.
What sticks out in this game is Self’s desire to run!
All of our 5 candidates are going to have to realize they can’t be “ball and chains” out there… slowing down our team pace. From what I saw, KJ holds the lead with speed!
VIEWS OF THE GAME:
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Gradey stuck out to me! Wow! That kid has an amazing shot! Great verticality, great form, super quick release… I can’t think of anyone we’ve ever had that had a stroke that clean as a freshman! He’s going to take some lumps this year, but he is going to get plenty of PT and will be making some amazing plays!
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McCullar is the real deal! 5 steals… and almost another 5 steals. When he is out there it seems like we have 6 defenders! He was the guy that flipped our lousy slow start into a big win! He started the charge on defense then others sped up and played better defense, too! If I was to give out a game ball for this game it would go to McCullar!
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JWil showing more scoring aggression. Many times last year he had the rock and was driving and pulled out… now he tries to finish more. It’s a good sign and I expect him to average some big numbers this year!
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Bobby has to stay healthy! His scrap should earn him plenty of minutes! His game is still untapped and he can be huge for us this year if he stays healthy and builds off his PT.
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Dajuan played it right! Only 6 points but 10 assists! How many games will we lose this year if he puts up 10 assists?
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Rebounds are in question! No one got more than 4 rebounds. I get it… this year will be a “team rebound” theme. I’m okay with that but hey, we only had one more rebound than Pitt State! It’s hard to send everyone to the boards on defense if we plan to be a fast break team! ANSWER: We need a big that will dominate the boards!
Your spot on about Grady , and that’s what we as fans have to keep in mind.- Like you say Grady gonna take some lumps -so later this year he hits a wall - gotta remember he is a Freshman , with a showing like he put out last night isn’t going to help him any as far as fans expectations go lol - -he is human - -just got to be there to support him not get down on him - - and it will happen. Other teams start keying on him if he keeps showing like he did. - Spot on guy
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I didn’t get to watch last night’s game, but I do have some thoughts on the bigs rotation.
This is a bit of a mess (if you can call anything on a national championship contender a mess) because KU does not have a single big man that can truly do all of the different things you want out of a big man. They don’t have a lob catcher/rebounder/post up threat/ stretch shooter/ rim protector/ PnR defender in a single package.
KJ can catch lobs and defend the PnR, but his rim protection will be at issue with bigger players, and his rebounding will be roughly average. He can’t post up against bigger guys and his shooting remains to be seen, though I am probably higher on his shot potential than most. So out of those six things, KJ can probably do 2 well, 2 okay, and 2 poorly. Zach can shoot, but can’t protect the rim, guard the PnR or catch lobs. So he can do three things (post, stretch and rebound), but really can’t do the other three (protect the rim, PnR, lobs).
You can combine Zach and KJ in the lineup and that gives you 5 of the 6, but you still lack rim protection. Zuby or Udeh could protect the rim, and both look to be okay on PnR (though they are freshmen, so they will struggle against more advanced PnR players), but neither is as good a shooter as either KJ or Zach. I don’t think either is a real post threat at this moment, so basically you just get lobs with them. And while Zuby is a good rebounder, I worry about Udeh’s hands in the rebounding game. And Cam, while a good shooter and adept offensive player, is likely not a P5 level defender. He can get spot minutes for his offense, but against teams with good bigs, he will be a liability.
And with the talent KU has on the perimeter, I don’t know how much you can legitimately play 2 bigs without compromising having your best 5 on the floor. Wilson, Dick, Harris and McCullar are going to play big minutes. Rice is super talented, but may not have a spot right now. Either Yesufu or Pettiford is going to get squeezed on minutes as the season continues, especially if the big rotation remains this crowded.
KU has a lot of questions to answer over the next three weeks because the rotation is crowded and there are things that different guys do really well, but also things that they don’t do as well.
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@justanotherfan I’d settle for average rebounding from KJ I fear it will be much worse. Early on at least he is going to get more minutes than most fans would probably like.
I suspect Dajuan/Kevin/Jalen are all 30+ minute guys. Maybe Gradey gets there too but I think 25+ at a minimum. I think Bobby is the clear back-up PG and I see him getting steady minutes as long as he is healthy. When Joe was in there he was playing off the ball exclusively from what I remember. I hope MJ can prove good enough to grab those minutes because Joe showed me what he did last year which is that he isn’t very good. I do feel confident that those 4 are the top 4 though, and that we see 2/3 of the other three round out of “small” rotation. As for the two bigs that separate, I truly have no idea at this point.
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@BShark wasn’t it Zach, 2x, that lacked total court awareness? Easy buckets! I think that’s what coach was so po’d about.
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I’m in favor of really looking to the future with Udeh. Get him time. They all were clogging the middle, hoping the screening gets better! Getting the ball side to side a few times like self and Juan said after game instead of Wilson shooting so quick at the beginning, which he said too. Pretty green. It’ll be fun to watch them mature!
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in The 5 spot:
I’m in favor of really looking to the future with Udeh. Get him time. They all were clogging the middle, hoping the screening gets better! Getting the ball side to side a few times like self and Juan said after game instead of Wilson shooting so quick at the beginning, which he said too. Pretty green. It’ll be fun to watch them mature!
Not much else to do with that starting 5 out there but have Wilson try to chuck. Certainly can’t get anything out of a structured offense when you are playing Dajuan (non-scorer period don’t care what Bill lied about), KJ (non-existant on offense period far less value than Harris) and Udeh (a lob/rebound only guy at this point who also isn’t good setting screens yet). Would imagine (hope) we never see that exact 5 again. Gradey should start.
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@BShark didn’t gradey start 2nd half? Wilson shot us out at the beginning, to quick. Guess we have to disagree. Glad we started pressing. Won’t be that easy from now on. Bet we work on screens but not much time before mon. Let’s hope roberts can get them to start better.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in The 5 spot:
@BShark didn’t gradey start 2nd half? Wilson shot us out at the beginning, to quick. Guess we have to disagree. Glad we started pressing. Won’t be that easy from now on. Bet we work on screens but not much time before mon. Let’s hope roberts can get them to start better.
I’m talking about the start of the game when we played like complete crap.
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We have two choices in the post:
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Go small
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Go big
Zach is big… just thin. I consider him “going small.” So we have KJ and Zach on the “going small” side. Also… we have potential to stick someone like McCullar in the low post. Maybe sometimes even someone like JWil.
Zuby and Udeh have size and are players who will eventually develop into traditional bigs… back to the basket scoring, rebounding, and low post defense.
Question is… how many teams will we play that have a real low post threat? I’ll tell you… not many! The biggest issue (and need) we have with a big is offering rebounding. We need rebounds to get out and run! If we could have a big capable of pulling double-figure rebounds… this contest would probably be over. Low post scoring is pretty basic. Not too hard to have your back at the basket and shoot a mini hook. Glad more people are now appreciating what Big Dave had to offer. He had great low post scoring %.
Right now… I like the idea that we play games with some minutes small, some big. We adjust as the game goes along with what works best.
Starters… I don’t always put faith in the +/- stat… but checkout this game. It is glaring… Harris, Wilson, McCullar, Adams, Dick… and then Bobby… Very telling.
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in The 5 spot:
@BShark didn’t gradey start 2nd half? Wilson shot us out at the beginning, to quick. Guess we have to disagree. Glad we started pressing. Won’t be that easy from now on. Bet we work on screens but not much time before mon. Let’s hope roberts can get them to start better.
I agree early in the game Jalen was pressing. - -I think maybe his thought process was early when we fell behind like 21-6 - -he has in his head that this was one of those times this year where he thought he needed to step up and provide leadership role - - kinda try and put the team on his back, IF that was his thinking I can understand , yet I think he came down and took like possibly 5 straight shots- -and forced shots at that.
He was actually hurting us more then helping at that stage of the game. - -I think Jalen wants to be the leader for the team this Season - which is not a bad thing but just has to realize when to temper things a bit
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@jayballer67 It’s in large part because we only had two guys in that starting line-up even interested in/capable of scoring much. It was not a good/sustainable line-up at all. Doubt we see it again.
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I think Udeh wins the 5 mystery. I hope he gets 20+ min from here on out.
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@BShark said in The 5 spot:
@jayballer67 It’s in large part because we only had two guys in that starting line-up even interested in/capable of scoring much. It was not a good/sustainable line-up at all. Doubt we see it again.
very true & hopefully not
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@drgnslayr saw lots of excitement in your post and i concur. We have a wealth of talent! Sky is the limit!
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@BShark The starting lineup was Bill’s defensive dream and we got down 15 to a D2 school
The lineup only works if Juan looks to score. I won’t say Bill lied but all we’ve heard is talk about Juan taking a huge step offensively to lead the team. He doesn’t drive (reason he shoots such few free throws) and if he can’t knock down a three he’s offensively just a hockey assist guy.
Juan can’t score, kj can’t score, udeh can’t score so it leaves Wilson and McCullar to chuck and they were off to start. Pair that with atrocious defense and you get down quick.
Juan not even looking to score and Joe being atrocious were the two biggest takeaways from that game to me.
Grady, Wilson and McCullars gotta score 15-20 a piece to carry us offensively.
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@drgnslayr to name a few post threats
Duke - 7-1’ Lively Tenn - 7-1 (don’t know his name) Indiana - 6-9 trace Jackson Kentucky - Oscar Baylor - has 3-4 6-8 to 7’ athletic bigs
Pretty much any team you’d have to beat to win a natty
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@kuballin10 Yeah I agree with this completely that line-up simply can not score. Gradey needs to start going forward. You can’t have 3 non-offensive players in the game at once and 2 is pushing it.
I am hoping MJ proves good enough to take those minutes from Joe who was playing back-up off ball roles. Bobby is clearly the back-up guard and he looked really nice. He just needs to look to score more and he can be a great player. I don’t think it’s outside his dna like Dajuan I think it boils down to what the staff asks him to do.
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I was surprised by how small Udeh is. Zuby is the only big that physically looks the part. Clemence can stretch the floor. KJ is a tweener with unreal energy. I’m curious to see how this plays out.
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@dylans Udeh looked like a very large man live.
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anyone know if we’ve pressed that much in a preseason game before? Was it just a result of being way down or an actual glimpse at a possible strategy this year? Normally the bill self full court defense is just straight man to man pick up your guy on the inbounds but I saw Juan and jalen working traps and trying to really disrupt, leaving a ball hawk like McCullar to get in passing lanes. Will be interesting to see if self pulls that out again or goes back to his normal stuff.
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@Kcmatt7 Not sure if that’s a rebuttal or just you dropping that you went to the game. Either way - I had never seen him until the game. I was expecting a large bruiser McCormack type, not a Darren Hancock 6’6” post type. That’s all not disparaging the guy.
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@benshawks08 said in The 5 spot:
anyone know if we’ve pressed that much in a preseason game before? Was it just a result of being way down or an actual glimpse at a possible strategy this year? Normally the bill self full court defense is just straight man to man pick up your guy on the inbounds but I saw Juan and jalen working traps and trying to really disrupt, leaving a ball hawk like McCullar to get in passing lanes. Will be interesting to see if self pulls that out again or goes back to his normal stuff.
Yup, that was seemingly new territory for Self. Pressing really hasn’t been part of his strategy over the years. If i were to guess i’d say he dabbles in pressing a bit more this year, given our potential scoring issues. He likely wants to create his “havoc” and some turnovers for easier buckets.
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@dylans said in The 5 spot:
@Kcmatt7 Not sure if that’s a rebuttal or just you dropping that you went to the game. Either way - I had never seen him until the game. I was expecting a large bruiser McCormack type, not a Darren Hancock 6’6” post type. That’s all not disparaging the guy.
Hmm, not sure we were looking at the same guy. Seemed pretty big to me. For sure not a Hancock 6-6 type to my old eyeballs. Not well defined and muscular yet. true.
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@rockchalkjayhawk short. I meant he is short. I was expecting more of a true 5. Just had the wrong expectations, that’s all. He’s not skinny or weak. Not super explosive like Hancock - bad example. Doesn’t have t-Rex arms. First impression after the recruiting hype - He just appears shorter than I expected for a “bruising” post. Not a true 5 type. It’s might be better or worse depending on matchup.
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@Kcmatt7 yeah he’s tall and lanky maybe that’s what the other poster meant (he looked skinny but said small). He’s a legit 6-10/6-11 guy I think
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@rockchalkjayhawk this year he will do it more than any year however, his talk down in Houston he explained his philosophy, “no easy baskets ever”.
He thus hates pressing because if beaten correctly a press often ends in a layup or dunk and isn’t worth the risk compared to potentially getting a steal.
I agree with him here but in todays game you gotta defend the three point line and not just the rim
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I need to watch more apparently. Just saw about half of the first half. Udeh is 6’10”? but I thought he looked 6’6” maybe I had him confused with another player. Lots of new faces.
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Udeh is quite tall, probably tallest on the team so I do think you were thinking of someone else @dylans
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@BShark must have them confused. Feed sucked here. Hard to tell the new guys apart - don’t know their tendencies/movement styles yet.
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@dylans said in The 5 spot:
I need to watch more apparently. Just saw about half of the first half. Udeh is 6’10”? but I thought he looked 6’6” maybe I had him confused with another player. Lots of new faces.
You might be thinking of Zuby Ejiofor who is listed at 6-9, 240 on KU’s roster.
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@dylans said in The 5 spot:
@BShark must have them confused. Feed sucked here. Hard to tell the new guys apart - don’t know their tendencies/movement styles yet.
Yup. i got confused with a few faces. Didn’t really know Udeh vs Zuby going in.
Udeh looks like a 40 year old!
And I was like, who’s that guy with the mini fro? Cuffe!
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Watching UNC now. Kinda glad we didn’t get Nance. He’s kind of a stiff
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Power rankings after last night:
- Udeh
- KJ
- Zach
- Zuby
Udeh just provides this team with exactly what they need. A rim running big man who provides rim protection. He ran the floor like Tshiebwe last night. I was thoroughly impressed.
KJ still let’s us play a style of run run run. He rebounded well last night. Now if he can just be a little more of an offensive threat that’d be nice. He should be the guy tearing up the zone. Get it to him at the FT line and then he just goes over the top of the zone… Maybe next season.
Zach didn’t do much yesterday. Didn’t get a chance to do much, but it is clear to me he isn’t going to get much run. Not when you have three Adonis-like dudes you’re competing against.
Zuby also got like no run. The only reason Zach ranks ahead is because if he isn’t going to get experience now, I guess I’d rather have the Sophomore in the game. I’d like to see Zuby get 10-15 one of these games coming up.
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“I liked the matchup with KJ, because we were gonna sag on him,” Crutchfield said. “We could give help with his man. But when the big fella’s out there, I mean, it’s a different story.”
Our eyes did not lie.
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@BShark hopefully bill’s espn+ feed was better than most.
It’s obvious we are a better team with Udeh. When KJ and Juan are out there then it’s horrible spacing because the D can sag off those guys and clog the lane. Wilson and McCullar can’t drive as well because the D doesn’t honor a kick out to 2 players.
Udeh needs 25-28 mpg with kj filling in the rest. Bill has that long, athletic rim runner who will learn to block shots better paired with some guard who I think can shoot it (Gradey and Wilson). McCullar will come around and if Bobby can shoot 32-33% then we are going to be dangerous!
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@kuballin10 Something else I am monitoring is the back-up wing minutes. KJ was very not good in those spots imo and hopefully MJ can get/stay healthy and take those minutes.
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KJ doesn’t have much of a fit here but he plays hard and last night made an impact with his offensive rebounding/passing/moving the ball. Still waiting for any of his FT’s or perimeter shots to hit the rim though. I know they worked with him this offseason but that shot is still not good.
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@BShark KJ in the 4 wasn’t good. He did have a nice pass for a lob to Udeh but offensively with him unable to even look to drive, Juan is the same and udeh can’t even post up the offense is brutal
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KJ and Harris don’t do a lot of things other players can’t do but they sure do a bunch of things a lot of players DONT do that lead to winning. It’s gonna be tough for self/norm to sit a guy that does everything he preaches and was a small but important piece of a national championship team.
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@benshawks08 there is some truth to this but not enough weight to garner the minutes (especially kj) that they will play.
We got down 21-6 to a d2 school who isn’t some top d2 ranked team.
Omaha is over 300 in kenpom and crutchfield said when kj is in theyd play off him (said in another thread by Bshark).
When we play legit teams who have 6-10 to 7 footers KJ’s hustle will only go so far and his absolute zero threat offensively means the big man guarding him can camp in the lane so we can’t drive. That forces us to Chuck 3’s and this isn’t a good three point shooting team.
Part of the problem is Bill’s allegiance to said players as he sees their positive traits but negates a lot of their negatives which domino effect into why offensively we are hurting ourselves further with lineups.
When kj comes in Bobby should sub in for Juan so he’s at least guarded from deep.
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@kuballin10 I love Bobby but he’s made one three. Not sure he’s a respected deep threat yet.
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KJ is undersized, as noted by pretty much everyone, so if he’s our 5, any team with a decent big over 6-8 is going to be a problem for him. There’s just nothing you can do when you are giving up 2-3 inches to a guy that can actually play.
As for the others, Udeh is pretty clearly the furthest along, and should get minutes that reflect that. Ejifor is going to be a bit of a project. I think Clemence should get minutes, but I worry that he is going to be as bad a defender as we feared, possibly worse. His lateral quickness just isn’t very good, and teams can put him in bad PnR situations to exploit that. I think KU is going to have to defend PnR differently depending on which lineup is in. With KJ, you just switch everything because he can harass even quicker guards on the perimeter with his athleticism. With Udeh, you can play more straight up. With Ejifor and Clemence you probably have to ice the screen (force the defender to the nearest sideline) to limit the options of the ball handler by using the sideline as a third defender.
Having those changing strategies will require some discipline from our guards though, because they will have to be aware of which big is guarding the screen at all times. You can’t mix up that KJ just came in for Ejifor, for example, expect to ice the screen to the sideline, and miss the switch. That’s a dunk pretty much every time.
There are some pretty clear limitations for our 4/5 rotation. That will probably be the biggest thing to watch here early.
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@benshawks08 he’s unknown by other teams right now. Juan was similar and as the year went on teams figured out he was no threat and would sag off him much like kj just making our offense impossible to run when two guys aren’t threats.
Swain or someone posted a picture of Pitt state sagging so far off us to start daring us to shoot. If Boschee can figure that out the same will happen with other coaches.
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Me watching Udeh, a large athletic big after 2 years being removed from Udoka
best Aaron Lewis impersonation IT’S BEEEEEEEEN AWHILE
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Great stuff as usual from CJ. And as a matter of course, these things don’t get written without at least a passing glance from one Billy Eugene Self https://theathletic.com/3774169/2022/11/08/kansas-jayhawks-win-ernest-udeh-jr/?source=user_shared_article
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@FarmerJayhawk does it suggest Udeh will start and be the guy going forward? CJ is great I probably need to pony up the $1-$2
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One thing for sure I found out afterward about our 5’s - -between Udeh - - Clemence - - - & Ejiofor - -they managed 3 shots - - - THREE for the entire game, - -umm my friends that’s not gonna get it done. - They have to be more involved in the offense then that. We have got to work more to get them more involved then that offensively.
If were gonna run with that then were in trouble. If we got KJ on the floor who poses no offensive Threat - - Juan who really isn’t a great threat - - and then Our big’s get THREE SHOTS for an entire game between them - - were in TROUBLE
On another note - -I found a flaw with Grady lol yes believe it or not - - Grady is gonna have to hit the boards harder then that - -Against Omaha - he got TWO - - Two boards not good
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@jayballer67 I think the lack of boards for Grady is a result of him being the wing who is supposed to leak out and run. Let Wilson grab the boards and push it.
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@benshawks08 said in The 5 spot:
@jayballer67 I think the lack of boards for Grady is a result of him being the wing who is supposed to leak out and run. Let Wilson grab the boards and push it.
Braun was a wing
