So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?
-
@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I think next year is very likely a bridge year for KU anyway. One reason I like the Martin addition is it lets us take the pressure off other bigs having to contribute right away. Zach needs a year in our s&c program.
Agree. Our punishment will "finally!"be handed out by then. And Coach is coach - a great move - for as long as he wants to be, so the “Self is going to retire soon” argument won’t be able to be used anymore.
-
Ok let me say this right out the gate. I may be thick - - I may not be the brightest light in the house – -I may be kind of slow catching onto some thinds - - some might even say I’m an idiot. - - THAT’S OK I can live with that.
But having said all that I’m going to say seeing this and reading just plain and simple pisses me off - -Is that simple enough for other people to understand ya think ?
Let me clarify I have not seen this here , thank GOD or at least I don’t think I might of missed it. Now BShark has mentioned somethings about it - -BUT in no way do I think he wants this in any way shaper or form I think he was just saying that it might be a possibility - -and that is Ochai may test the waters, that’s fine - -so No BShark isn’t one of the one’s I’m talking about.
What pisses me off is and saw from other sites is that there actually what I would say are the true idiots - and thats they want Ochai to leave to move on and don’t want him here anymore. - -To that I say are you FRICKING SERIOUS? - -are you that fickle , such a closet fan that if you have a player who doesn’t stand up to YOUR sorry ass expectations you want them out ? - - Get the F - - - out of here with that shit , as a matter of fact why don’t you relieve yourself - -dismiss yourself from being a true KU fan - -bout makes me sick to hear people say that. I could do without fair weather fans that are so quick to judge.
Hell it’s people like that if it were their way we would never lose , miss a shot, commit a turnover, never foul , get every rebound - people like this are sorry ass BEER guzzling Hoagie eatin couch potato Couch’s - you want the perfect player - -little FYI no such thing as perfect , there is only one perfect person in this world and he is NOT walking this earth right now. - -don’t know about you but I will take Ochai anytime thanks. -these people just want these players out recruited over to bring someone they think will be better and then THEY turn out themselves to be a bust this is what pisses me off – OK RANT OVER. I’ll take Ochai anywhere anytime - - Thanks. – - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
I would love for Ochai to come back. It’s also an incredible success story if he is drafted and I would be thrilled for him.
He was our best player last year, with Dave being #2. I was looking at a couple different interesting advanced stats and they basically said the same thing. Our starting 5 were clearly our best guys (with Ochai/Dave being 1/2) and then Harris was the only okay-ish bench player though Bryce improved in conference play. Mitch was atrocious. Like insanely negative.
-
@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I would love for Ochai to come back. It’s also an incredible success story if he is drafted and I would be thrilled for him.
He was our best player last year, with Dave being #2. I was looking at a couple different interesting advanced stats and they basically said the same thing. Our starting 5 were clearly our best guys (with Ochai/Dave being 1/2) and then Harris was the only okay-ish bench player though Bryce improved in conference play. Mitch was atrocious. Like insanely negative.
Agree about Mitch for sure, and and most should know I really like Mitch but just didn’t have it this year, or not nearly as much so. - -Yet again when things like this happen there are some that just want to bury a guy with their verbal assaults some just really nasty - and that’s BS. At the end of the day these are STILL 19-23 yr old kids , their gonna have bad days - - months they’re human there are some people that just go 0ver the edge running these kids down. - The game of Basketball is STILL suppose to be fun for these kids , true for some it’s their future and I understand people’s frustration but to just unload on these kids is just not right - -people think these kids don’t realize that they are struggling - -they know that but dam some people need to put the pipe down and slowly back away - -just insane
-
I love Mitch, it isn’t his fault he was the only back-up big man.
-
@BShark said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I love Mitch, it isn’t his fault he was the only back-up big man.
your right it’s not, he just doesn’t have the build to be able to match up against P-5 big’s gets pushed around - -d-the effort is there BUT , just doesn’t have the frame/body on top of being less athletic then others, but he will bust his ass doing what he can , and he just loves KU 1000000 % good to have kids like that
-
Ochai will get drafted eventually. He has a great stroke and is athletic and pretty long. He has improved continuously and has not hit his ceiling.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 you had me on everything except Harris 40% from 3. Kids form is jacked. It’s going to take seldenesque improvement in shooting form, Marcusian improvement will not suffice.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
That post isn’t to say that Dave is better than everyone else on that list because he isn’t. In a vacuum, the players that I believe Dave is better than, or at least equal to, are Darnell Jackson, Landen Lucas, Cheick Diallo, Jamari Traylor, Sasha Kaun and Chenowith. Those players also had far better supporting casts than Dave has and none of those players were tasked with being the go-to player on their team the way Dave was.
I agree with your general assessment. So the question is “Why did Self try to make Dave the focal point of the offense?”
This isn’t to start a campaign against Bill Self or anything silly like that. But in all honesty (and I agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 here) if Big Dave is more equivalent to Lucas/Jackson/Kaun then why did we force feed the post in the second half of the season?
I knew that if Big Dave was our main guy offensively we would be a Round of 32 team. Going small was our best chance to get deep into the tournament.
That has always been my largest criticism of Self. Self wants the highest possible floor for every team. He doesn’t want to go 9-17 or 16-12 or whatever, even if that means artificially capping the potential of certain teams.
KU’s best advantages this year were always playing small with Wilson at the 4 or the 5. They were also at an advantage when they could play with Garrett or Harris and at least three shooters to offset the lack of perimeter shooting from those two guys. And of course, Harris needed to play with four other offensive threats to be sure not to stagnate the offense. That was fairly clear after a handful of games.
Now, if KU does that, I readily admit that it could have all gone very wrong. They probably have a few games where they get smashed on the glass, can’t get stops and ultimately lose by 10-15 points. They went 21-9 this year. I could easily see them losing 4-5 more games if this lineup doesn’t work because playing that small that much makes them vulnerable. That’s a given, and Bill Self doesn’t want to be that vulnerable every night.
But that was the only lineup that would have also given KU any chance of a deep run in this year’s NCAA tournament. So the choice was, essentially, risk a 15 loss season for a chance to get to the Elite Eight or Final Four, or guarantee a 20 win season that won’t make it out of the first weekend.
-
@approxinfinity said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@Texas-Hawk-10 you had me on everything except Harris 40% from 3. Kids form is jacked. It’s going to take seldenesque improvement in shooting form, Marcusian improvement will not suffice.
He’s was 64% this year and I realize the limited sample was wide open looks that he won’t have with increased minutes. His form does need tweaking, but it’s not TGF levels of broken. I really wouldn’t be surprised if he’s at least 37% next season.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 He’s definitely selective with his 3 pt looks. I could see him ending up most years with somewhere between high 30s to even another year like this one similar to aaron miles. He’s not really known as a shooting threat, but has to be just good enough to keep the defense honest.
-
Spot on about supporting cast and how that impacts Big Dave’s numbers. Big Dave had NO HELP! He carried those numbers by himself. Our perimeter play became mush as the season progressed. Our guys pretty much forgot how to drive, very little movement (on or off ball screens, etc.) Big D wasn’t choreographed in much of the offense, like what you saw last night by both teams using their bigs on pick and rolls.
As I have said for more than a month… I don’t know how to describe the offense we ran because it had no visible description for what is was… except BROKEN!
The fact that Dave salvaged the stats that he did is simply amazing! And this is coming from a guy who really lacks good footwork. BTW: I hope he paid attention to players like Timme… who lived by his his swivel steps in the post. Dave can learn that. Timme wasn’t an incredible athlete… he just took the time and worked his butt off to develop smoothness in his moves. Give the guy credit for maximizing his potential!
-
@justanotherfan said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
I knew that if Big Dave was our main guy offensively we would be a Round of 32 team.
Pretty BS stretch to say the tourney loss occurred as you predicted, or that it was due to Dave, not Jalen, being the focal point. So, Wilson at the 4 or 5 with the small guys would have taken us further? You predicted that having Dave at center meant Wilson would barely be able to suit up against USC due to Covid? and that Dave–after heroically propelling us out of the 1st round without Wilson to help–would be playing on a broken foot 2 days later? His being the focal point in Big 12 play meant the guards and wings couldn’t shoot 3s, make layups, rebound, or defend even a lick?
If you foresaw all that, you need to quit law and just buy lottery tickets.
-
@mayjay https://kubuckets.com/topic/10358/this-is-a-second-round-team-if-they-keep-playing-mccormick
This is a thread from January.
-
I know about that thread. Did the 2nd half of the season play out the way the thread discussed? Who predicted him being a 2nd team Big 12, or the conference’s Most Improved Player?Covid is Dave’s fault? Outside shooting and inability to defend the 3 are Dave’s fault? Who predicted those things?
Forget the title. Look at the specifics…what about Dave’s play was predictable over the last 16 games to lead to the loss?
A title about crappy and lethargic guard play leaving us a 2nd round team would have been more accurate.
Or maybe you all just amazingly predicted everything, or perhaps some of you cannot get past thumping your chests about how right you were that Dave would be the death of the team.
-
@mayjay from Feb. 1
“ I honestly can’t believe how bad of a year it has been given how much we returned from last year.
Seems to me Bill put a lot of eggs in the “Dave can be an 18 and 10 guy” basket and that just didn’t pan out. And there was no plan B. But the reality is this team just cannot shoot the damn ball. Braun has gotten super soft. Wilson’s stroke is gone. Garrett and Harris are Garrett and Harris.
They don’t have a Moss or BG off the bench who can come in and provide a spark with a couple of set plays. They don’t have a PG who can force the action a bit. They don’t have a big man who they can throw the ball into and get buckets in a grind it out game.
This team is like playing chess with only pawns and knights. They have no pieces that allow them to attack any differently. Just the same thing over and over and if it doesn’t work, well it is going to be ugly.”
We have shit talked the entire team all year. All some of you read though is Dave and then for some reason you see red.
The point being made is that playing through Dave was not taking this team to the promise land. As @justanotherfan said, going five guards may end up being disastrous, but it is about the only way this team would have a chance to make a deep run.
Then you focus on one game, and use every excuse with it for why we lost except for the reality that this team had a limited upside that a lot of us saw before the season even started, and certainly after the first half of the season.
(This conversation is giving me some KUBuckets in its prime vibes btw).
-
@Kcmatt7 I think your post makes it look like I wrote that on Feb 1. To be clear, I never questioned the post strategy.
Now, to particulars: The point is that Dave played much better during Big 12 play, particular the resurgence that took KU to 2nd place from around 6th. We earned a 3 seed based on that surge. You are blaming him for the loss at the finish as if your predictions of his being responsible played out.
Dave went from flailing away to post-season accolades after you wrote this:
@Kcmatt7 said in This is a Second round team if they keep playing McCormick:
But, we shouldn’t be hanging our season on a guy who hasn’t developed much in three years like he is all of a sudden going to turn his season around these last two months.
Maybe you don’t know what Most Improved Player, or 2nd team All Big 12, mean, but it sure seems you are still trying to justify prediction, while the coaches and media and the team itself would laugh you out of the room.
-
Dave had a good end to the season and he’s not terrible. He’s got some good offensive moves in the post but he’s not a good shot blocker, struggles to score against length, not a great shooter past the free throw line distance, and he struggled defending pick and rolls. I think the point was, we got a little over focused on playing through him and against elite teams that wasn’t going to pull an upset… I felt like we created a ton of turnovers and were more sound defensively with the small lineup. I would have loved to see a full year commitment to an up tempo style with a small lineup. I think that would have opened up more driving lanes for Garret and wilson. Allowed better spacing for improved looks for braun and ochi. Mix in half court trap and zone like Villanova does occasionally… but Self is an amazing coach so what do I know. I just think the other style had more of a chance to pull some upsets in March. Oh well on to next year!
-
@mayjay Who has said “Man we lost to USC because Dave.” Where has that been said? I know I didn’t say that.
I think the 30 point loss to end the season in the round of 32 is about all the justification I need to say I was right about this team and the strategy of playing through Dave though… When you predict something, and it comes true, usually that means you were right. But go ahead and hang an entire argument on one single line of a post.
I just want to reiterate - NOBODY I’ve seen is blaming the USC loss specifically on Dave. If anything people are blaming Self for force feeding him when that was simply not effective enough to make up for all of our other shortcomings.
Again - I am not saying that Dave is the reason we lost the last game.
Just making it clear, I don’t think Dave specifically is why we lost to USC.
P.S. I don’t think Dave cost us that last game by himself.
P.P.S. Really, Dave is not specifically the reason why we lost one single game against USC.
One final time - We didn’t lose the USC game because of Dave.
Okay but seriously Dave isn’t the sole reason we lost to USC.
-
@Kcmatt7 Yeah, but he wasn’t the only reason we lost to USC!
-
Dave McCormack played GREAT down the stretch. He was as good as he could have possibly been. He played well in most every game, and even came up huge against Eastern Washington in a game we likely lose if he doesn’t play that well.
But again, that’s the problem.
Big Dave played at or near the top of his game and this was a second round team because Big Dave was not a good fit with the rest of this team from a basketball perspective.
Big Dave needs to play with a really athletic power forward that can do the things that are not his strength - mainly rim protection and rebounding. A player like Jonathan Tchamwa Tchatchoua (or Silvio De Sousa) would have been a great compliment to Dave because they would have defended the best interior player from the other team, and provided the rebounding and rim protection necessary to be successful. Once De Sousa was out, KU did not have that anymore.
He also needs creative guys on the perimeter (think a guy like Frank Mason) that can drive and distribute to keep the floor opened up for him. Ideally, that guy is also a really strong defensive player so the other team’s PG can’t constantly put Big Dave into the PnR, where he struggles. Dajuan Harris could do some of that, but because he wasn’t a scoring threat, it limited how effective he was.
And of course, Big Dave needed consistent shooters around him at all times. Other than Braun and Agbaji, this KU team did not have that at all.
So the ideal Big Dave lineup this year would have been McCormack, De Sousa, Braun, Agbaji and a better scoring version of Harris (or a more confident Thompson). You notice that Marcus Garrett and Jalen Wilson, arguably KU’s other top players this year, are not on that list. And that’s where the problems start.
To play Big Dave, you have to basically sit two of your other best three or four players. That’s not sustainable. On the other hand, if you spread the floor and play small with Wilson at the 4 or 5 with a variety of guards around, you end up not really playing Big Dave (except with the above lineup, switching in Wilson for De Sousa and accepting that you are going to give up some rebounds), but the majority of the minutes you play very small.
As I said before, that may have gone horribly. I can clearly see the flaws and the potential to get destroyed defensively and on the glass.
But I can also see a bunch of lineups where teams can’t figure out how to guard Wilson and Garrett at the 5 and 4. Garrett using his quickness and smarts to take advantage of slower bigs that play off him. Wilson dragging 5’s out to the three point line. The other perimeter guys feasting on the open lane, getting drives and backcuts for layups and dunks, or open threes as defenders help when Wilson and Garrett drive.
I can see a scrappy, trapping defense that can switch more or less anything, forcing just enough turnovers and rebounding just enough to create opportunities and keep teams from grinding them in the paint.
Could that type of team make a deep run in the tournament? Yes. Could that type of team miss the tournament entirely? Also yes.
But this is Kansas. We don’t hang banners and hold parades just for making the tournament.
-
I think we can all agree that Dave is a good team player and has a valuable skill set with the right personnel around him. I think we run into trouble when people equate perceived absolute value of a player with blame.
-
@jayhawks2010 This team was bottom half of the country shooting this season. A small ball line up would’ve been countered with a zone forcing a bad shooting team to wins games by making shots. And no, the small ball line up wouldn’t have worked against athletic length defensively either because Jalen and Braun who typically defended the 4 and 5 spots in the small ball line up are not good defenders.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 I guess agree to disagree. I don’t think we attack a zone any better with McCormick. I also believe Garret defends the post about as well as anyone and him and wilson would have defended 4-5 not braun. I believe we turnover other teams much higher, drive better, and play more uptempo. But who really knows bc we never did it.
-
@jayhawks2010 coughs OU GAME
-
Ahhh, now I can sleep at night. Lunardi has us a #1 seed in the midwest for next year. Whew, thought the sky was falling for a minute! LOL
-
Lol. And I thought early season bracketology was worthless.
-
With most rosters still unknown, I don’t know how you peg anyone for any seed.
-
@justanotherfan Absolute insanity, but probably generates some clicks.
-
Might help recruiting?
-
@Crimsonorblue22 yeah. As Bill would say “We can send out a flyer.”
-
I totally agree with your idea of going uptempo and counting less on David in the paint. Most teams we faced wanted to see us try to win a game from just winning with David. And many proved it wasn’t the answer.
Instead of David being the focus and the first alternative… he should have been more the second and third alternative.
We had enough athleticism to spread the floor and drive the ball… and then feed David near the basket off the guards driving… for easy baskets.
Why didn’t we see this go down? Because our perimeter players are not developed players. They almost completely stopped driving the paint until late in games then it was Marcus. Look back at the NC game and how all of Baylor guards not only knew how to drive, but most of the time would fake the drive and then pull the setback jumper. Easy scoring space and high FG %. Learn to do that like Baylor guards… open for an easy perimeter shot anytime you want… and then see how that opens up the rest of the offense. Baylor guards were developed. Those were NBA moves…
We need player development… otherwise… we need to recruit mostly top shelf players and hope they play well enough in their 1 to 2 years. Not a good strategy. Just ask Calipari.
-
@drgnslayr The problem with your hindsight is KU’s guards couldn’t shoot for shit and gave no reason for defenses to not focus on taking away KU’s driving because there was no reason to respect KU’s outside shooting this year. Dave was KU’s best offensive option for much of the season because KU couldn’t shoot for shit.
Cam Martin and Josef Yesufu are good shooters that should force defenses to have to extend out. Even more than athleticism, KU needed people who could shoot so going inside to Dave doesn’t automatically turn into double or triple teams like it did last season.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
@drgnslayr The problem with your hindsight is KU’s guards couldn’t shoot for shit and gave no reason for defenses to not focus on taking away KU’s driving because there was no reason to respect KU’s outside shooting this year. Dave was KU’s best offensive option for much of the season because KU couldn’t shoot for shit.
Cam Martin and Josef Yesufu are good shooters that should force defenses to have to extend out. Even more than athleticism, KU needed people who could shoot so going inside to Dave doesn’t automatically turn into double or triple teams like it did last season.
KU had the double whammy of having guys that didn’t have either an athletic advantage or a shooting advantage. That tripped us up all season.
-
I totally agree… but they should have shot respectable #s. They aren’t developed to handle even light defense. They don’t know how to create their own scoring space at the perimeter. It was truly sad to see basketball at Kansas with so little guard development. Pathetic, actually.
Defense always gives an option open for offense. Guards should know how to create their own scoring by mastering several aspects. Fakes and shots from the perimeter, drives and pull ups, drives and finishes at the rack. This is college basketball and Kansas basketball! To have players that can’t do it is pathetic. They should have a bit of skill before arriving but they should be able to develop these skills within a couple years here.
DMac is the last guy I’m going to criticize on this team because that guy has the greatest attitude and work standard. He’s a guy who doesn’t have great footwork but he has made lots of strides since becoming a Jayhawk. I totally applaud his play!
-
Pretty solid IMO
-
Dat speed?
-
Roster posted! https://kuathletics.com/sports/mbball/roster/
Couple notes: Harris added 10 pounds. Which is good. Pettiford taking the legendary #0. Curry still listed lol. Big Dave isn’t so big, down to 250. Clemence needs to be with Doc Ramsey like 24/7. 221 aint gonna do it in this league night in and night out.
-
@FarmerJayhawk said in So- with all these players coming and going, what is next years team gonna look like?:
Roster posted! https://kuathletics.com/sports/mbball/roster/
Couple notes: Harris added 10 pounds. Which is good. Pettiford taking the legendary #0. Curry still listed lol. Big Dave isn’t so big, down to 250. Clemence needs to be with Doc Ramsey like 24/7. 221 aint gonna do it in this league night in and night out.
Zach is playing the 4 right? 221 isn’t enough to be Dave’s backup for instance but if he’s primarily a 4 then its not too bad. Regardless your right he needs Ramsey in the worst way. Going to be a few years I think til you see him in peak physical condition.
-
No offense to Zach, but I’d be SHOCKED if he weighted 221. I’d have to see it in person to believe it…
-
@FarmerJayhawk noticed pettiford still wearing a boot
-
No Remy Martin on there yet. Does he like #4?
-
Glad Bobby took #0. I hope he sees Frank in himself.
