NOA response from KU discussion
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He said an administrative error
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@hawkfan01 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I think you have to accept the kids were paid; that seems to be admitted pretty clearly in court and that’s not being disputed. My question was more were they paid to attend KU? My perception of the shoe company game is the shoe companies are funneling money to players (or their handlers) and then for them to choose one of their brand’s schools. Was there any requirement Preston and DeSousa choose KU especially when you have handlers involved? Or could they have chosen any Adidas school? I’m not familiar with the particulars of NCAA rules, but I think there’s a difference. Are KU’s coaches coordinating with Adidas reps to steer players to KU? I think if you look at what the courts decided, the answer is clearly no. I think each of the defendants walk if they believed the evidence pointed toward KU coaches and other schools coordinating with them. At that point, it’s difficult to prove the defendants defrauded the schools.
So if the evidence proves that KU’s coaches were coordinating, then I think KU would and should get hammered, but there’s not that kind of evidence. Is there any evidence that KU’s coaches told Gassnola or whoever to send $2500 to DeSousa’s handler? I don’t think so. The evidence against almost every other school was they had coaches involved in the money. KU did not. There’s a couple text messages or wire taps that don’t sound particularly great, but we don’t have the context of the entire conversation and either way, there’s no evidence that KU was involved in paying. Look at Townsend’s comment about Zion…how many coaches around the country do you think made a similar comment? Probably a lot. Virtually everyone wanted Zion. If KU ends up going the IARP route, I hope due to the backgrounds of those involved, a little higher standard is held than automatically believing conspiracy theories without hard evidence. The KU situation is clearly different than virtually every other school that’s been named.
The other thing that has to be considered is how KU handled each situation when allegations arose. Preston never played. DeSousa sat until he was declared eligible. KU never thumbed their nose at the NCAA like Arizona and Ayton, Memphis and Wiseman, etc. Unless you just have a vendetta against KU, KU clearly isn’t a renegade program.
Unless I made a typo or autocorrect changed something, I’ve never said kids weren’t paid so I don’t know where you’re pulling that one from.
I also think it’s incredibly naive to think Self, Townsend or any coach, especially ones that have regular communications with “consultants” are fully aware of money changing hands. They’re just not dumb enough (usually) to leave a concrete paper trail about those specific issues. This gives coaches enough plausible deniability should something like the FBI and NCAA investigations come up.
I also believe you’re argument loses a lot of merit when you say, “I’m not familiar with the particulars of NCAA rules” and start trying to decipher the severity of the penalties. Here is the list of things KU has no arguments for because the following things have happened according to the FBI and/or NCAA.
Silvio DeSousa’s guardian received $62,500 ($60,000 from an unnamed Under Armour consultant and $2,500 from Gassnola to cover the costs of an online class Silvio needed in order to graduate early and enroll at KU a semester early) in impermissible benefits with the intent of receiving another $20,000 (from Gassnola/Adidas to payback money received from Under Armour with an agreement for Silvio to attend Maryland). This is why Silvio’s suspension was originally for 2 years because the NCAA views it as Silvio or someone representing Silvio received $62,500 in benefits with the intent of another $20,000 in benefits. Rewind back to Josh Selby’s case for a minute. Josh Selby was suspended 9 games by the NCAA for a little over $6,000 in impermissible benefits while still committed to Tennessee before he flipped to KU. It does not matter where a player is committed to, all that matters in the eyes of the NCAA is that a player or someone representing that player received impermissible benefits and that player’s eligibility is now in jeopardy. The length of a suspension typically depends on how much a player received in benefits.
This is also what the NCAA is alleging happened with Billy Preston and Cheick Diallo who are the other two players in the NCAA’s allegations against Kansas Basketball.
KU will receive penalties over those infractions because there isn’t a defense KU can make about those. What many people ignore, including you right now, is that the severity of the penalties will hinge entirely on what final ruling of the status of Adidas and TJ Gassnola ends up being.
You claim KU’s case is vastly different than every other case out there and it is not. I would highly suggest to you to go look up what NC State is being accused of and what’s in Louisville’s latest NOA from the NCAA and still claim that there’s no other cases like the KU one. In all three cases, the most serious allegations are that Adidas and TJ Gassnola are considered boosters of each program under NCAA bylaw 13.02.15 which deals with representatives of athletics interests.
NCAA bylaw 13.02.15 states “Representative of Athletics Interests. A “representative of the institution’s athletics interests” is an individual, independent agency, corporate entity (e.g., apparel or equipment manufacturer) or other organization who is known (or who should have been known) by a member of the institution’s executive or athletics administration to: (Revised: 2/16/00, 4/25/18)”
This is the rule NCAA is using to come after KU, Louisville and NC State. How the IARP rules on the application of this bylaw is going to play the single biggest factor in KU’s fate at the hands of the NCAA. An IARP decision upholding the NCAA’s argument will likely mean that Bill Self will either get a long suspension or show-cause label and KU will be searching for a new head coach, Kurtis Townsend would likely get a show-cause long enough to end his coaching career, a multi-year postseason ban, significant scholarship reductions, vacating games involving DeSousa and Diallo (subsequently vacating the 2018 Final Four banner), a failure to monitor label for the program again because the head coach should aware of what boosters are doing, and a very long probation period.
If the IARP rules against the NCAA’s application of bylaw 13.02.15 and determines the NCAA has misapplied the label, then KU probably gets a slap on the wrist compared to the penalties above. Probably the most severe penalties would be vacating games Diallo played in and games DeSousa played in prior to his suspension being overturned.
Because there has yet to be a case that’s actually made it to the IARP, Memphis was recommended in the Wiseman case, but the hearing never happened because Wiseman left school, we don’t actually know which way the IARP leans in regards to upholding NCAA violation accusations.
NC State was referred to the IARP ahead of KU’s, and since their case is pretty similar to KU’s, how the IARP rules in that case is going to give us a pretty strong indication of how KU’s case is going to go.
If me having hesitation about KU’s outlook at the hands of the IARP makes me have a vendetta against KU, I would recommend you read this article from SI in regards to the NC State case. https://www.si.com/college/ncstate/basketball/ncstate-terrified-ncaa-iarp-infractions-process
It could very well turn out that going to the IARP could end up being worse for KU than letting the COI rule and then go through the appeals process.
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@BeddieKU23 “They clearly think KU did rub this in the NCAA’s face. Their latest response sure made it sound personal in regards to the Late Night fiasco.”
But did KU? I thought I had seen somewhere that the particular video of Self in the Adidas shirt was recorded weeks in advance (before KU was even charged by the NCAA). The optics looked bad and probably a bad decision on the marketing department, but I don’t think KU read the allegations from the NCAA and then said, hey guys, “I have a great idea. Let’s put Self in an Adidas shirt with gold dollar sign chains on it and go film a promo video for Late Night.”
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
He said an administrative error
I still fail to see how the NCAA is out of touch because SFA’s compliance department failed to do its job. SFA screwed up and are paying the price. In the corporate world, a business that fails to cross their t’s and dot their i’s and gets hit with fine by some regulation group like the SEC isn’t going to get much sympathy from. They’re going to get a hard lesson which is what SFA got for not having someone do due diligence, or at least competently do due diligence.
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@hawkfan01 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@BeddieKU23 “They clearly think KU did rub this in the NCAA’s face. Their latest response sure made it sound personal in regards to the Late Night fiasco.”
But did KU? I thought I had seen somewhere that the particular video of Self in the Adidas shirt was recorded weeks in advance (before KU was even charged by the NCAA). The optics looked bad and probably a bad decision on the marketing department, but I don’t think KU read the allegations from the NCAA and then said, hey guys, “I have a great idea. Let’s put Self in an Adidas shirt with gold dollar sign chains on it and go film a promo video for Late Night.”
You just completely missed how Late Night was rubbing it in the NCAA’s face. KU had just received the NOA that week about players being paid and what happened during Late Night, Snoop Dogg showered recruits with fake money. I don’t believe I heard anybody say that was a smart decision on KU’s part.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 No I wasn’t saying that you said the kids weren’t paid. I was just saying that’s not in dispute I don’t think? KU isn’t disputing that, right? I think we concede that it was admitted in a court of law, under oath, they were paid.
In general, I would trust your opinion on this case far more than mine. I haven’t read the NOA or KU’s response and am not familiar with the minutia of NCAA rules - all of which will matter greatly in this case. I’m trying to pick through people’s arguments and figure out how KU might get out of this without getting hammered.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Saying NCSt’s case is the same as KU’s ignores a major difference: an assistant coach at NCSt was the middleman in funneling the money. KU’s coaches are not alleged to have ever touched or been actually aware of any payments.
There is substantial room for a decision-maker to distinguish the two situations.
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@mayjay said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Saying NCSt’s case is the same as KU’s ignores a major difference: an assistant coach at NCSt was the middleman in funneling the money. KU’s coaches are not alleged to have ever touched or been actually aware of any payments.
There is substantial room for a decision-maker to distinguish the two situations.
I didn’t say the cases were the same, I said they were similar. The biggest difference is their isn’t irrefutable evidence Kurtis Townsend was funneling money to recruits. If you read up on the IARP process (basically top level PI’s with connections to the FBI and other high level security groups), don’t be shocked if that connection is made between Gassnola and Townsend at some point, or even Self and Gassnola.
Again, the biggest issue in the NC State case that will carry over to the KU case is the ruling on Adidas and TJ Gassnola.
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"(They) come from one of three firms: Freeh Group International Solutions, run by former FBI director Louis Freeh; a Manhattan outfit called Kroll, once referred to in The New York Times as “Wall Street’s private eye;” and Berryman Prime LLC, founded by former U.S. Department of Treasury Special Agent Steven Berryman, who worked in the IRS Criminal Investigation Division.
These are the people that will be collecting the evidence/information for the IARP to make their rulings based off of. These people are going to have a helluva lot better connections than the NCAA does.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Doesn’t KU have to consent to the unappealable procedure featuring Dick Tracy & Co? What is the advantage, since they are free to go beyod the NCAA charges?
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@mayjay said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Doesn’t KU have to consent to the unappealable procedure featuring Dick Tracy & Co? What is the advantage, since they are free to go beyod the NCAA charges?
Since the case has been recommended to go to the IARP, I doubt KU is going to decline that option because even if the verdict is negative for KU, it only means KU can no longer appeal within NCAA confines. It says nothing about taking the NCAA to federal court over the matter which is probably where this is headed regardless of what the IARP rules. The only thing the IARP is probably going to affect here is which side initiates the court case.
For anyone out there who doubts KU is guilty of anything here, part of KU’s response to the NCAA, "Regarding the men’s basketball allegations, very few facts are in dispute. The institution does not dispute that Adidas and its employee and consultant provided at least $100,000 to the families of three men’s basketball prospective student-athletes the institution was recruiting. (Head coach Bill Self and assistant coach Kurtis Townsend) also do not dispute many of the facts related to Adidas and its representatives having contact with prospects and that they regularly communicated with Adidas representatives about their recruitment of prospects. …
“However, where the parties diverge from the NCAA enforcement staff is on the key issue of responsibility. The institution, Self and Townsend have accepted no responsibility for this conduct.”
This thing is going to the IARP to determine the application of NCAA bylaw 13.02.15.
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@hawkfan01 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@BeddieKU23 “They clearly think KU did rub this in the NCAA’s face. Their latest response sure made it sound personal in regards to the Late Night fiasco.”
But did KU? I thought I had seen somewhere that the particular video of Self in the Adidas shirt was recorded weeks in advance (before KU was even charged by the NCAA). The optics looked bad and probably a bad decision on the marketing department, but I don’t think KU read the allegations from the NCAA and then said, hey guys, “I have a great idea. Let’s put Self in an Adidas shirt with gold dollar sign chains on it and go film a promo video for Late Night.”
I don’t believe KU intentionally did anything to stir the pot but as you mentioned the optics look that way to the NCAA and others. The NCAA felt some type of way about it to include that part in their latest response. I thought it was a very petty thing to do but we’re talking about the NCAA here.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
For anyone out there who doubts KU is guilty of anything here, part of KU’s response to the NCAA, "Regarding the men’s basketball allegations, very few facts are in dispute. The institution does not dispute that Adidas and its employee and consultant provided at least $100,000 to the families of three men’s basketball prospective student-athletes the institution was recruiting. (Head coach Bill Self and assistant coach Kurtis Townsend) also do not dispute many of the facts related to Adidas and its representatives having contact with prospects and that they regularly communicated with Adidas representatives about their recruitment of prospects. …
“However, where the parties diverge from the NCAA enforcement staff is on the key issue of responsibility. The institution, Self and Townsend have accepted no responsibility for this conduct.”
This thing is going to the IARP to determine the application of NCAA bylaw 13.02.15.
I think I like that strategy. How many schools do we think benefited from Gassnola’s work? Maybe this is like UNC’s academic fraud in that if it’s available to other schools, KU wasn’t unfairly advantaged…lol
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Our justice system is built on the basis of due process. Once again, I think the NCAA is digging themselves a deeper hole by thinking somehow the IARP will invoke tactics possibly beyond those used by the Justice Department.
Kansas must stay true to their guns and stay safely in the role of victim.
The fact that Kansas doesn’t dispute an action from Adidas is exactly how they should respond. Kansas is not Adidas, and disputing any action from Adidas would imply Kansas and Adidas are one. It’s not KU’s job to challenge any potential action of a 3rd party.
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Looks like LSU has received their NOA… About time
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@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Looks like LSU has received their NOA… About time
Incorrect, Dick Vitale jumped the gun. LSU’s AD confirmed last night they have not received an NOA yet.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 brother! Really?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yes, and Vitale is now in full back track mode saying will receive their NOA soon.
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@mayjay said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Doesn’t KU have to consent to the unappealable procedure featuring Dick Tracy & Co? What is the advantage, since they are free to go beyod the NCAA charges?
Dick Tracy? He has got a very cool watch. Makes Apple’s look very mundane, by comparison.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@Crimsonorblue22 Yes, and Vitale is now in full back track mode saying will receive their NOA soon.
Interesting. So Vitale has an informant or two or three in the NCAA. Why would I be surprised.
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Beat Duke, get investigated.
A number of tough Duke losses in the last couple of years are currently in a position to be vacated by the NCAA due to investigations (specifically – KU in the final four, Stephen F Austin, NCState, Louisville…)
What a coincidence!
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See ya Cade Cunningham
Oklahoma St punished for its role in the FBI trial. 1 Level 1 violation for the Assistant Coach. That coach was hit with a 10 year show-cause order
20-21 postseason ban
10k fine plus 1% of the bball budget
3 lost scholarships from 20 to 23.
other recruiting reductions.
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Big yikes. Will be interesting to see what happens with KU…
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Cade Cunningham to G-League or overseas basically confirmed then.
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They don’t usually make the tourney? What was the coaches name? Forgot
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Case probably won’t take the pay cut to go pro. Probably doesn’t change much for us. Our case hinges on Gassnola, not anyone employed by KU.
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This is Exhibit A on why KU is playing hard ball. Oklahoma St basically laid down and agreed and was punished severely still.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Case probably won’t take the pay cut to go pro. Probably doesn’t change much for us. Our case hinges on Gassnola, not anyone employed by KU.
You got it, and he’s not going to change his story. The financial windfall for him is too great, once this all wraps up. I still say that it bodes well that our case is being heard by the independent - I hope it is independent, anyway - committee. Too much bad blood between KU and the NCAA, at this point.
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There’s always the risk the independent group finds other evidence that damages KU’s case even further. That’s the devil’s advocate side of it. It could as you said see the case the way KU has presented it or find some sort of middle ground. No appeal process here though
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@FarmerJayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
Case probably won’t take the pay cut to go pro. Probably doesn’t change much for us. Our case hinges on Gassnola, not anyone employed by KU.
He isn’t giving that money back either if he goes pro. In order, this is what I’m expecting will happen with Cunningham. 1) With the NBA Draft getting pushed back, look at going to the NBA, 2) Find somewhere overseas to play because he would make money doing that than whatever he got from Nike, 3) G-League, 4) Play a partial season with OSU, fake an injury, and sit out and prepare for the 2021 NBA Draft, 5) Sit out next season’s empty arena games and prepare for the 2021 NBA Draft, and 6) Play a full season for OSU despite all the other conditions both within and outside of the programs control going on.
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@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
There’s always the risk the independent group finds other evidence that damages KU’s case even further. That’s the devil’s advocate side of it. It could as you said see the case the way KU has presented it or find some sort of middle ground. No appeal process here though
True. I wonder how much longer this is going to take?
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
They don’t usually make the tourney? What was the coaches name? Forgot
Mike Boynton
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@bcjayhawk said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@Crimsonorblue22 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
They don’t usually make the tourney? What was the coaches name? Forgot
Mike Boynton
Oh, that’s right… Boynton.
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@bcjayhawk I meant the ast coach that took the money. Think it was Lamont Evans? But thx, you are the only one to answer!
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IARP it is. That is if they accept. KU did today
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@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
IARP it is. That is if they accept. KU did today
This is KU’s best shot to avoid the harshest punishments. Obviously not guaranteed KU will avoid the hammer, but the odds are better than going through the COI and appeals route since we know the NCAA is out for blood.
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When is our execution date? In other words, when are we finally going to find out when the bourgeoisie is going to send us to the Gulag?
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KU did ask for the football violation to be split from the IARP. Will be interesting to see if they do that
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Wouldn’t expect anything for a while, probably fall’ish
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@BeddieKU23 Thanks! I don’t understand why it takes so long.
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@wissox said in NOA response from KU discussion:
When is our execution date? In other words, when are we finally going to find out when the bourgeoisie is going to send us to the Gulag?
Nothing about this process will be publicly known at this point. Only updates we’re likely to get before a decision is if the football and basketball cases will be looked at separately and when KU presents their case. My best guess is we’ll know about 2 months after the NC State ruling is handed down so we should have about 2 months to know whether KU is going to take it up the rear or not.
I am only referring to the ruling on the status of TJ Gassnola and Adidas to NC State because that’s the relevant portion of their case to KU.
I wish NC State would get ruled on before KU presents their case so KU could call up NC State and find out what works and doesn’t work with the IARP.
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I’m afraid that this New Committee is looking to make a mark for it’self from the get go and KU is going to be the target.
I think they are going to be out to show that this committee isn’t going to put up with any Bull S - - - from anyone including a Blue Blood school and they going to use KU as an example. I’m not looking for anything good to come from these guys working our case - - and the thing is if they decide to run it up our arse then we have to take and smile because - - - NO APPEAL
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We should be afraid its new. It’s also the only hope at a fair shake.
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@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
We should be afraid its new. It’s also the only hope at a fair shake.
So very true & that’s a big reason I am worried like you. They are new They want to set an example.
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@jayballer73 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
@BeddieKU23 said in NOA response from KU discussion:
We should be afraid its new. It’s also the only hope at a fair shake.
So very true & that’s a big reason I am worried like you. They are new They want to set an example.
If they purposefully seek to make an example of a program, schools are going to flat out refuse have cases go to them which is bad for business for the IARP. If the IARP goes too far the other way and absolves everything, the NCAA is going to refuse to have cases go the IARP route which again is bad for business for the IARP. It’s in the IARP’s best interest to be as fair and unbiased as possible so both schools and the NCAA will continue to allow the IARP to hear cases in the future.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 one hundred percent agree.
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KU did not waive its right to appeal if the IARP accepts its case. In the referral response they said this:
“Although KU believes it is more likely to receive a fair decision through the IARP, KU submits that the use of the IARP should not result in the inability to have the decision of the Independent Resolution Panel (IRP) reviewed by the federal courts, as the Rice Commission recommended. Accordingly, KU does not waive any right to seek a review and/or appeal in any forum should a procedural error occur or should the IRP render a decision or penalty that is not supported by the record in this case.”
NC St took a similar stance when they responded.
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It will be interesting if the NCAA tries to argue that since consenting to the non-appealable alternate panel is voluntary, it is akin to private arbitration. Most attempts to seek review of arbitration are fruitless under the American Arbitration Act, even if a party unilaterally tries to “reserve” their right to seek redress to the courts. But arbitration agreements are explicit in what rights they waive. I still doubt that courts would enforce the “no recourse” provision when faced with gross procedural violations (e.g., NCAA not adhering to their own rules) or manifest injustice.
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It was the NCAA that threw our case to the IRP, correct? To me, it shows weakness on their part and speaks volumes as to just how flimsy their case against us really is. Why would they do that?
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It is my opinion that the NCAA has lost so much power because of their broad legal exposure… that they are attempting to separate their pursuit on prosecuting infractions to a “third party” which is nothing more than a bunch of legal eagles.
They are hoping for two advantages with this:
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Reduce their legal exposure (also meaning financial exposure).
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Regain aggressive tactics for discovery and prosecution.
This is basically guaranteed to end up one day in front of the Supreme Court. The idea that an entity can contract out “hit squads” in this fashion and then not think they will be held accountable is just one more example of how our way of life is being threatened by large-scale organizations.
Large corporations have been using these tactics for decades. Hiring unscrupulous collections agency is an example that pops up in my head. The real key here is if the hiring entity can be pursued for damages.
The NCAA took a page out of the big corp playbook.
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