RIP Jalen Wilson
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DanR said:
I hate seeing guys sit out at all. Silvio’s involuntary year didn’t seem to do him any good. I’m worried Mitch will regress with an off year.
Who would be the best redshirt success story at KU? Travis Releford? (second year redshirt)
Ben McLemore
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Arguably Landen Lucas. Just because of how much he developed from Year 1 to Year 5.
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BigBad said:
HighEliteMajor said:
I’m puzzled why we are quick so quick to dismiss Wilson. Is it likely he’ll be ready to play and make a big contributions this season? No.
When has coach Self EVER trusted a freshman early in conference play? You really think he will trust a freshman who hasn’t played this year MID conference play? ZERO chance Self plays him over 3 minutes per game. If he doesn’t red shirt he is completely wasting a year.
Hmmm. Quite a few times. Agbaji, Grimes, Garrett, Selden, Oubre, Graham, Mason, Wiggins – but you know, kind of a few. It’s happened “EVER.” Agbaji stepped on the court, low ranked freshman, no PT at all, and average over 20 minutes per game last January. Just a recent history lesson.
No one has said that Self will trust him early in conference play. The guy isn’t ready physcially now – which is “early” in conference play.
No one has said to throw him in at 15 min per game. Straw man argument. The idea, I think, would be to let him get his feet wet and ramp up if he deserves the ramp up OR of if we need it.
And you realize that redshirting him is also likely a waste? All it saves us his is his 5th year. If we get his 5th year, there is high risk that he either turns pro before then OR he leaves as a grad transfer.
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@HighEliteMajor well stated and pretty much where I am at with it.
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HighEliteMajor said:
BigBad said:
HighEliteMajor said:
I’m puzzled why we are quick so quick to dismiss Wilson. Is it likely he’ll be ready to play and make a big contributions this season? No.
When has coach Self EVER trusted a freshman early in conference play? You really think he will trust a freshman who hasn’t played this year MID conference play? ZERO chance Self plays him over 3 minutes per game. If he doesn’t red shirt he is completely wasting a year.
Hmmm. Quite a few times. Agbaji, Grimes, Garrett, Selden, Oubre, Graham, Mason, Wiggins – but you know, kind of a few. It’s happened “EVER.” Agbaji stepped on the court, low ranked freshman, no PT at all, and average over 20 minutes per game last January. Just a recent history lesson.
No one has said that Self will trust him early in conference play. The guy isn’t ready physcially now – which is “early” in conference play.
No one has said to throw him in at 15 min per game. Straw man argument. The idea, I think, would be to let him get his feet wet and ramp up if he deserves the ramp up OR of if we need it.
And you realize that redshirting him is also likely a waste? All it saves us his is his 5th year. If we get his 5th year, there is high risk that he either turns pro before then OR he leaves as a grad transfer.
Jalen would be a medical redshirt so it’s a bridge to cross if the situation arises. If Wilson is still playing college basketball in 2023-24 (what would be that 5th year) and is a grad transfer, that would mean that he’s majorly underachieved at KU and wouldn’t be looking at many minutes that season anyway at KU and therefore not a big loss to the success of that team.
If he turns pro first, then KU wouldn’t need to apply for the medical redshirt so it’d be a moot point.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 It’s not a “moot point.” The issue is whether we play him this season. So, if we play him this season, he loses the chance to redshirt. If we don’t play him, we lose potential help. So if he turns pro early (the item you suggested created the mootness), we lose his potential contribution this season if we choose to redshirt him, in that eventuality.
You make the assumption that grad transfer is not productive. That’s many times not the case. Moss? Tarik Black? Many times it’s just change of scenery, coach issues, could be PT – say if we brought in a presumed OAD. But at KU, I agree, that the grad transfer thing is less of a risk and would likely indicate other issues that might make us less harmed by the loss.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 It’s not a “moot point.” The issue is whether we play him this season. So, if we play him this season, he loses the chance to redshirt. If we don’t play him, we lose potential help. So if he turns pro early (the item you suggested created the mootness), we lose his potential contribution this season if we choose to redshirt him, in that eventuality.
You make the assumption that grad transfer is not productive. That’s many times not the case. Moss? Tarik Black? Many times it’s just change of scenery, coach issues, could be PT – say if we brought in a presumed OAD. But at KU, I agree, that the grad transfer thing is less of a risk and would likely indicate other issues that might make us less harmed by the loss.
Jalen Wilson played 2 minutes in the Duke game before his injury meaning he’s not eligible for a traditional redshirt this season since he appeared in a regular season game. The only way Wilson gets this season of eligibility back is through a medical redshirt which he wouldn’t apply for until the spring/summer of 2023 if he’s still playing college basketball at that time.
My understanding of how the medical hardship waiver works is that if Wilson comes back and plays at any point this season, he would no longer be eligible for a medical redshirt for this season.
Since his injury happened prior to the midway point of the season and Wilson played fewer than 30% of KU’s games, he’d currently be eligible for a medical redshirt if the situation arises.
So the question for Self is does he think that Jalen Wilson will be around in 2023-24 (I would strongly lean towards yes on that one) and does Self believe Wilson can help KU more in 2023-24 than in 2019-20. If the answer is yes, then the logical choice is to sit Wilson the rest of this season to preserve that year of eligibility.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Right, completely agree. You just agreed with my post. You said it was “moot” in your previous post. In this last post you said there were choices – see your last paragraph.
It is my understand that he can’t wait until future years to apply for the medical redshirt for this past season. He would need to do it now (or within a certain time period after the season).
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I could be wrong on the rules of medical red shirt, but what I found:
- The injury must be season-ending.
- The injury must occur before the second half of the season.
- The athlete cannot have competed in more than 30% of the season, or 3 competitions, before an injury.
Jalen qualifies for a MRS. If he comes back and enters a game, he loses this option. There may even be exceptions possible by filing a challenge with the NCAA.
Unless we lose several other players, I don’t see a scenario where Jalen comes back this season. Even if he was up to full speed (he won’t) he will have not be up to speed with the team.
I think it is important for him to keep this year of eligibility moving forward. I know I really appreciate 5th year seniors. Regardless of how many minutes they actually play, they provide needed leadership to young players, too. And almost regardless of their individual talent level, they are typically needed on the court at times because they know what to do, they know what Self wants.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Right, completely agree. You just agreed with my post. You said it was “moot” in your previous post. In this last post you said there were choices – see your last paragraph.
It is my understand that he can’t wait until future years to apply for the medical redshirt for this past season. He would need to do it now (or within a certain time period after the season).
You really didn’t read that entire post then. I said the redshirt issue is a moot point if Jalen left KU early, but that doesn’t fit the narrative you’re trying to create, but what else is new with you changing the parameters of a discussion to fit whatever narrative you’re trying to create on a given day.
I’ve also seen nothing that indicates a specific time frame for applying for a medical redshirt in the NCAA by-laws that I’ve seen on the matter. If you’re aware of that rule, feel free to share where in the NCAA by-laws it is.
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Honestly I think the risk of Wilson going pro early is overblown. Check out guys ranked 40-55 in the 247 composite from 15-17. Most are still in school, and many of those that did declare had extenuating circumstances.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
Honestly I think the risk of Wilson going pro early is overblown. Check out guys ranked 40-55 in the 247 composite from 15-17. Most are still in school, and many of those that did declare had extenuating circumstances.
Pretty much my belief. A 50ish ranked recruit in a very weak recruiting class that would be in the 60-75 range in normal years isn’t very likely to leave early for professional basketball. Wilson also doesn’t have an NBA skill set even if he reached his ceiling at KU. He’s about 80% Perry Ellis and 20% Svi mixture. Wilson is a better shooter than Ellis was, but he’s a poor rebounder for his size, isn’t very athletic, and plays below the rim.
There’s very little about Jalen Wilson’s game and skill set that says he’ll be an NBA player at any point in his career.
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dylans said:
Ben McLemore
I thought he had to sit out for academic reasons. But he was pretty dang good after that year off, regardless.
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@DanR correct. He would have played right away if he was eligible.
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Same deal with Jamari. I don’t know if he got any better with the off year, but he was about as raw as possible to start with.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
Morningstar redshirted the title year and was a major factor for the next 3 years primarily as a starter.
How could I forget about Brady!
Mario Little sat out a year also after his JuCo stint.
All right, I’m starting to get on board with the redshirt for Jalen if it’s possible.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Try tracking here. You claim the redshirt decision is moot if he leaves early. It’s not.
The medical redshirt decision DOES matter IF he turns pro before his eligibility expires. Why? Because if we chooses the redshirt, then he won’t get to play this season and loses his PT this season (and we lose his services for that time). That is lost playing time that he/we can’t recoup when he leaves early. It’s not moot at all if he ends up leaving early. Where it is moot is if we get the redshirt AND he stays for his entire eligibility. Taht way we get the full amount of his services and he gets a full amount of college PT (four seasons of PT).
But, you know, just creating a narrative.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Try tracking here. You claim the redshirt decision is moot if he leaves early. It’s not.
The medical redshirt decision DOES matter IF he turns pro before his eligibility expires. Why? Because if we chooses the redshirt, then he won’t get to play this season and loses his PT this season (and we lose his services for that time). That is lost playing time that he/we can’t recoup when he leaves early. It’s not moot at all if he ends up leaving early. Where it is moot is if we get the redshirt AND he stays for his entire eligibility. Taht way we get the full amount of his services and he gets a full amount of college PT (four seasons of PT).
But, you know, just creating a narrative.
You try tracking. There is no official deadline to apply for a medical redshirt until 2023 for Wilson because that’s when it become necessary. If he plays this year and left early, the redshirt decision doesn’t matter. If Jalen sits this year and eventually leaves early, the redshirt decision doesn’t matter. That’s why it’s a moot point if Jalen leaves early.
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BShark said:
@DanR correct. He would have played right away if he was eligible.
A technicality, but I do think it was a redshirt year.
@Kcmatt7 Landen Lucas may have had a bigger impact due to 4 years played, but I think some may argue that impact was akin to being championship blocked.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
HighEliteMajor said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Try tracking here. You claim the redshirt decision is moot if he leaves early. It’s not.
The medical redshirt decision DOES matter IF he turns pro before his eligibility expires. Why? Because if we chooses the redshirt, then he won’t get to play this season and loses his PT this season (and we lose his services for that time). That is lost playing time that he/we can’t recoup when he leaves early. It’s not moot at all if he ends up leaving early. Where it is moot is if we get the redshirt AND he stays for his entire eligibility. Taht way we get the full amount of his services and he gets a full amount of college PT (four seasons of PT).
But, you know, just creating a narrative.
You try tracking. There is no official deadline to apply for a medical redshirt until 2023 for Wilson because that’s when it become necessary. If he plays this year and left early, the redshirt decision doesn’t matter. If Jalen sits this year and eventually leaves early, the redshirt decision doesn’t matter. That’s why it’s a moot point if Jalen leaves early.
Now you look like a fool. If he does not play this season, taking the redshirt, AND he ends up leaving early, he lost the playing time for THIS season. And we lost his services for THIS season. We can’t get that back. He can’t get that back. **His games played are lower.**That makes the decision clearly NOT moot and the decision DOES matter.
Example 1 - He comes back Feb 1 and Self plays him in 13 more games this season. Next season he plays 38 games. The following season he plays 36 games. Turns pro. Total games 87 games played .
Example 2 - He does not play anymore this season (redshirt). Next season he plays 38 games. The following season he plays 36 games. Turns pro. Total games 74 games played.
Not moot. The decision DOES matter even if he turns pro early. He/we lose games. Comprehend?
How hard is this?
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Always fun to see people arguing with each other over conjecture.
HEM, you misunderstood his initial use of “moot”. TexHawk used the term in discussing how Wilson’s potential 5th year impact at KU would change for the team if he left early due to going pro or by transferring out. He suggested if Wilson transferred out then he was likely not going to have a big role on the team that year anyway. Thus, “moot” was limited to the context of whether KU would benefit from Wilson’s 5th year.
Your points are well-taken about all the other possible ways both KU and Wilson could benefit starting this year by not redshirting. But whether he benefits KU 4 years from now would indeed AT THAT POINT be moot if he leaves after 3 no matter the cause.
As always, trying to find understanding rather than leaping to snippiness and name-calling might help.
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@mayjay Thank you for your ability to comprehend my initial post.
@HighEliteMajor if Jalen Wilson never plays year 5 whether at KU or elsewhere because he developed enough to turn pro before then, the redshirt issue is moot because it wouldn’t be necessary regardless of whether he played at any point this season or not. But again, thank you for creating a narrative that wasn’t there by changing the context of a post. Have a nice day.
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@mayjay - Nope, sorry. He said, “If he turns pro first, then KU wouldn’t need to apply for the medical redshirt so it’d be a moot point.”
My example holds. It’s not moot because if he leaves early then a if he sits out this season he loses games. You’re not following and you make the same mistake he did. You ignore the fact that Wilson loses games of the decision is made to sit him out this season (which is the redshirt decision). If we play him he can’t redshirt.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I didn’t change the context of your post.
Tell me, then, if the decision is made to sit him now and not play him (thus the redshirt approach), how is it moot if he loses those games he could have played this season?
The decision has to be made now. Because if you don’t sit him now, you can’t have a redshirt. See … it’s not moot then or now.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@mayjay - Nope, sorry. He said, “If he turns pro first, then KU wouldn’t need to apply for the medical redshirt so it’d be a moot point.”
My example holds. It’s not moot because if he leaves early then a if he sits out this season he loses games. You’re not following and you make the same mistake he did. You ignore the fact that Wilson loses games of the decision is made to sit him out this season (which is the redshirt decision). If we play him he can’t redshirt.
@Texas-Hawk-10 I didn’t change the context of your post.
Tell me, then, if the decision is made to sit him now and not play him (thus the redshirt approach), how is it moot if he loses those games he could have played this season?
The decision has to be made now. Because if you don’t sit him now, you can’t have a redshirt. See … it’s not moot then or now.
Thanks for proving my point that you take people’s comments out of context to create your own narrative. My narrative this entire time has been that if Jalen Wilson left KU early to turn pro, it doesn’t matter if he played this year or not because the redshirt issue would never come up for debate. There would be no “what if’s” about Jalen in 2023-24 because he would already be gone from KU.
If Jalen plays this year and gets to 2023-24, there will always be “what if’s” about sitting Jalen this year.
Been my point the entire time, but keep claiming I’m making some other point when my statements have been the same this entire debate.
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The decision has to be made NOW, not later. By holding him out. That decision costs games. That is the decision. Regardless of when the technical redshirt is granted.
If he leaves early, the decision to redshirt … by not playing him … is not moot.
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Good thing it’s jalens w/his parents and coach’s decision. I’m sure the dr/trainer is helpful too
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One thing I might say , I’m not so sure Jalen will be leaving early. Might very well be that 4 year player. Something that will have to play it’self out I know - -I’m just not really that sure , think he gonna have to have some really good yrs ahead. - -So that’s yet to be determined
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I think this whole debate is moo. It’s like a cows opinion. It doesn’t matter.
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Glad we solved that!
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benshawks08 said:
I think this whole debate is moo. It’s like a cows opinion. It doesn’t matter.
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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jayballer73 said:
benshawks08 said:
I think this whole debate is moo. It’s like a cows opinion. It doesn’t matter.
MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Oink
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@benshawks08
I have no beef with that. You are right–this is a bunch of bull, udder nonsense in fact. Can you steer us somewhere better? Just steak out a position and let us know.Sorry for milking this so much. I herd that people hate puns but I won’t be cowed.
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@Crimsonorblue22 just take it by the horns
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Just one big cow pattie!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Hay–how ya doin’? Getting far afield, aren’t we?
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@Crimsonorblue22 You can run but not hide!
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@mayjay time to pen this up and hit the hay!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Hope nobody pulls a calf before it’s over!
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@FarmerJayhawk ewww me either, seen it before, close enough.
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You guys are milking this for all its worth.
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Well, I guess I throw out too much bull-sh**. I seem to have butchered this one. No one was amoosed. My apologies. Time to hide for a while.
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The only reason for Wilson to redshirt would be if he is still not ready to go come mid-February. If able to go I think that he will contribute in a variety of ways, like at the 4 rebounding the ball and getting put backs, even stepping out for the occasional three. If able to play coach will play him.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
@Crimsonorblue22 Hope nobody pulls a calf before it’s over!
Well I didn’t pull one, but I did have to warm a calf up on my floorboard this week. Little dude got to cruise the country side for 5 hours before finally coming g back to life. (Pretty neat when they live). No pun here sorry.
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@dylans You and Billy Crystal! Congrats! Did you name him Norman?
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@mayjay lol I named him after his momma - 417.
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@dylans Much more satisfying than trying to educate K State farmers, I would guess!
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@mayjay lol smarter subjects.
Gotta stay busy in the winter, I’d hate to have some time off.
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@dylans ahhhh! Maybe @HighEliteMajor could hide out there around your place? No inner city violence there either. He could pull some calves and milk some cows. Etc, farm chores.
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https://twitter.com/dodo/status/1213943253428404224?s=21
He wanted to go! At least we are not this bad! I’m not, well maybe w/my dog?🥴
